Tiger in the Masters?

[ajbrown]

I have not seen this discussed. Was just reading about Tiger Woods possible disqualification from The Masters. The infraction occurred when he took a drop yesterday at 15.

Masters reviews Tiger Woods' drop on 15; was it legal? (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2013/04/13/masters-tiger-woods-drop-on-15th-hole/2079679/)

I am sure the sponsors are sweating it out. Whether you are a Tiger fan or not, he brings viewers and IMO make any tournament more exciting.

Wowser....

[alemorkam]

Tiger BROKE the rules of golf with the drop. However, he has only been penalized two stroke penalty and will remain in the Masters. He SHOULD have disqualified himself from the tournament once he realized he broke the rule. The Masters has determined to assess a two stroke penalty because a viewer called in in and brought it to the attention of officials.

[ajbrown]

Thanks Alemorkam, I just saw he was only assessed a two shot penalty. Not sure unless you are Tiger how you can be assessed a 2 shot penalty after you have signed your card, but I am certainly not an expert.

I do remember Michelle Wie going through the same type issue and was disqualified.

I am interested to hear Tiger's response. Sadly it will have been prepared by his handlers by now. I think the truth lies in his post round interview.

"So I went back to where I played it from, but I went 2 yards further back and I took, tried to take 2 yards off the shot of what I felt I hit. And that should land me short of the flag and not have it either hit the flag or skip over the back. I felt that that was going to be the right decision to take off four right there. And I did. It worked out perfectly."

Taken from article: Masters reviews Tiger Woods' drop on 15; was it legal? (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2013/04/13/masters-tiger-woods-drop-on-15th-hole/2079679/)

That quote defines an illegal drop.

[Bobcuse]

The USGA passed a rule in late 2012 which allows a player who violated a rule but did not realize he was comiting an infraction and has signed his scorecard to be assessed a two stroke penalty in lieu of disqualification.

[ajbrown]

The USGA passed a rule in late 2012 which allows a player who violated a rule but did not realize he was committing an infraction and has signed his scorecard to be assessed a two stroke penalty in lieu of disqualification.

I understand that. I wonder if it were not Tiger? People will always wonder that. What happens if he wins? Will he get an asterisk next to his major achievements?

I think Tiger is in a very difficult position, and I suspect he is really considering disqualifying himself.

How bad is that break now? That shot does not hit the flag he likely makes birdie.

This is very interesting to watch unfold...

[Bobcuse]

I think it will motivate him to be more aggressive on the weekend rounds to show his determination although that could lead to his downfall at Augusta. His composure on the first 32 holes is what got him to 5 under. This puts him at 1 under but still only down 5.

[dndlion]

Interesting, they first reviewed it while he was playing 18 and determined there was no rule violation. After his post round interview when Tiger stated he intentionally dropped 2 yards back then they determined it was a rule violation...I guess he should not have said anything...

[Golfingnut]

2 stroke penalty has been assessed. For anyone to insinuate that he did it with the intent to cheat is disingenuous. Also if he would disqualify himself, he would be going against the decision of the Masters committee and I am sure some would find fault with that. Let it be and lets watch his expert play for the next two days and enjoy.

[alemorkam]

Tiger (#1 player in the world) knows the rules. He CLEARLY broke a rule of golf. He should disqualify himself. The precedent was set by Bobby Jones when he called an official over because he THOUGHT his balled moved. The official asked if anyone saw the ball move. Noone did. The Official told Bobby Jones that they should be no penalty. However, Bobby Jones said he would take the penalty because he was not sure. He LOST the major by one shot.

This decision is great for the ratings this week. It is all about the money. How many more people will watch because of this.

The rule the are citing for the 3 stroke penalty instead of disqualification says in fact "a play who "UNKNOWINGLY" breaks a rule which is brought to his attention after signing his card will be assigned a 2 stroke penalty.

Tiger Woods knows the rules.

I really like Tiger Woods and enjoying watching him play. However, Tiger Woods needs to do the right thing and Disqualify Himself. Which he may yet.

[ajbrown]

As I finish my taxes.... early this year :1rotfl: and listen to the experts. Do you think the world with our 24x7 news cycle has enough experts :ohdear:. A topic for another thread....

I think Tiger should DQ himself. Does he technically have to? NO....

What I think is not important of course, but I think his stock goes up IMO if he takes that action. He is the game of golf in this era and I think that type of statement from him goes a long way to further solidy golf as one of the greatest games....

Am I alone with this opinion?

PS. I wrote this before I saw any post after #6.

[alemorkam]

The USGA incorporated a rule LAST YEAR, to cover players who unknowingly breaks a rule and it is reported by a television viewer or someone else AFTER he signed his or her card.

This rule was not in effect when Michelle Wie was disqualified.

[ajbrown]

The USGA incorporated a rule LAST YEAR, to cover players who unknowingly breaks a rule and it is reported by a television viewer or someone else AFTER he signed his or her card.

This rule was not in effect when Michelle Wie was disqualified.

True, my example was not a good one. I actually did not know the rule until this issue came up :shrug:

[Golfingnut]

The USGA incorporated a rule LAST YEAR, to cover players who unknowingly breaks a rule and it is reported by a television viewer or someone else AFTER he signed his or her card.

This rule was not in effect when Michelle Wie was disqualified.

Thank you and you are correct. It is nice to see someone use their head for something besides a hat rack.
:MOJE_whot:

[dndlion]

Here is the rule for a drop. Why can't he said he followed rule B.


a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped;

[ajbrown]

Here is the rule for a drop. Why can't he said he followed rule B.


a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped;

The ball entered the hazard to the front left of the green, looking at the green from the fairway, on the FAR side of the pond, so that line (B) would be way to the left , either at the drop area or even further left close to the woods.

[dndlion]

The ball entered the hazard to the front left of the green, looking at the green from the fairway, on the FAR side of the pond, so that line (B) would be way to the left , either at the drop area or even further left close to the woods.

Makes sense, thanks....

[EdV]

After a review this morning, the rules committee assessed him a two stroke penalty for the infraction which leaves him five strokes back of the leader instead of three at the start of round three.

[ajbrown]

Thank you and you are correct. It is nice to see someone use their head for something besides a hat rack.
:MOJE_whot:

Ouch... is this my wife Linda?

How about this?

A Committee would not be justified under Rule 33-7 in waiving or modifying the disqualification penalty prescribed in Rule 6-6d if the player’s failure to include the penalty stroke(s) was a result of either ignorance of the Rules or of facts that the player could have reasonably discovered prior to signing and returning his score card.

[dndlion]

Here is my thoughts now(with the right to change later). I do not think Tiger intentionally broke the rules and the committee made the right decision to to give him a 2 stroke penalty. However in the world we live in today with all the media attention Tiger would be a better man and DQ himself.

[George1938]

As I finish my taxes.... early this year :1rotfl: and listen to the experts. Do you think the world with our 24x7 news cycle has enough experts :ohdear:. A topic for another thread....

I think Tiger should DQ himself. Does he technically have to? NO....

What I think is not important of course, but I think his stock goes up IMO if he takes that action. He is the game of golf in this era and I think that type of statement from him goes a long way to further solidy golf as one of the greatest games....

Am I alone with this opinion?

PS. I wrote this before I saw any post after #6.



DOES ANYONE, IN THEIR RIGHT MIND, THINK THAT HE INTENTIONALLY BROKE A RULE?. IN TODAY'S AGE WHERE WE HAVE MILLIONS OF RULE EXPERTS (WATCHING ON THE TUBE WITH PHONE IN HAND ) JUST WAITNG TO "CATCH" ONE OF THESE PROFESSIONALS CHEATING SO THEY CAN "TURN" THEM IN. HOW WOULD YOUR MIND BE WORKING AFTER SUFFERING AN EXTREMELY BAD BREAK? WOULD YOU BE THINKING CLEARLY? YOU MISS A TWO FOOT PUTT AND YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT RIGHT FOR A WEEK :duck:

[ajbrown]

In case I was not clear, which often happens when I post. I DO NOT THINK Tiger broke the rules intentionally. That does not change my opinion that he is between a rock and a hard place and it would be better for him AND more IMPORTANTLY the game if he withdrew.

[OnTrack]

I believe Tiger did not intentionally break the rules, but whether he will ever admit it or not...was actually in a bit of shock.

I think he was on autopilot at that point and was proceeding as if the ball had entered the hazard short of the green...which I'm sure has happened to him many times previously.

I personally am a bit ambivalent, on whether he should have been disqualified.

I can see the legitimacy of both arguments and while appalled at his personal behavior, am also a fan of his golfing prowess.

Regardless of whether he goes on to win or not, he has given the golfing world something to argue about.....for many years to come.

[BogeyBoy]

DOES ANYONE, IN THEIR RIGHT MIND, THINK THAT HE INTENTIONALLY BROKE A RULE?. IN TODAY'S AGE WHERE WE HAVE MILLIONS OF RULE EXPERTS (WATCHING ON THE TUBE WITH PHONE IN HAND ) JUST WAITNG TO "CATCH" ONE OF THESE PROFESSIONALS CHEATING SO THEY CAN "TURN" THEM IN. HOW WOULD YOUR MIND BE WORKING AFTER SUFFERING AN EXTREMELY BAD BREAK? WOULD YOU BE THINKING CLEARLY? YOU MISS A TWO FOOT PUTT AND YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT RIGHT FOR A WEEK :duck:

My thought exactly.

(P.S.) Easy on the all caps, we're all friends here, no need to yell.

[dndlion]

Here is my thoughts now(with the right to change later). I do not think Tiger intentionally broke the rules and the committee made the right decision to to give him a 2 stroke penalty. However in the world we live in today with all the media attention Tiger would be a better man and DQ himself.

I have changed my mind. Who cares what the media thinks, tee up the ball and shoot a 62....

[ajbrown]

I have changed my mind. Who cares what the media thinks, tee up the ball and shoot a 62....

It was very interesting to follow. I certainly do not believe there is a RIGHT answer. Tiger has decided to play, so be it, I am ok with that (I know... who cares :blahblahblah:) and look forward to a great Masters.

I am hoping Mr. Couples putting can hold up. I love cheering on the "old guys".

[aussiemom]

Tiger is too arrogant a person to ever admit he knew what he was doing and definitely too arrogant to DQ himself. I don't care if he is a good golfer or not. One day Tiger will get exactly what is coming to him and I will gladly sit back and enjoy that day.

[OnTrack]

It was very interesting to follow. I certainly do not believe there is a RIGHT answer. Tiger has decided to play, so be it, I am ok with that (I know... who cares :blahblahblah:) and look forward to a great Masters.

I am hoping Mr. Couples putting can hold up. I love cheering on the "old guys".

I agree on all counts. :coolsmiley:

[EdV]

Those that think he intentionally violated the rules are wrong, and here’s why. While proceeding to drop under rule 26, Tiger simply mixed up the options for dropping the ball out of the hazard. He intended to add a few yards and could have done so as far back as he wanted as long as it was on a line that was on an extension of a line between where it splashed in, and the pin. But when dropping from where he initially hit it requires it to be as close as possible to the original point, or roughly less than a foot.

So if he intentionally broke the rule hoping no one would notice, why would he then go on national television and describe in detail how and why he did it in a post interview.

But what if he decided to play the rules game to the hilt and make the infraction knowing the committee would issue the new unintended post play rule and accept the additional two stroke penalty. Well you don't need to be a math genius to realize that if he wanted to legally play the ball two yards back he could have dropped the ball as close as possible and then declare the ball unplayable and drop it back for a total of two penalty strokes instead of the three he was given.

There's no reason for him to disqualify himself.

[jebartle]

Did Tiger commit this infraction with the intent of deceiving all of the world?....I think NOT!....

[Polar Bear]

I'm not a Tiger guy, but I'm not sure why so many are saying Tiger should DQ himself. The 'redo' by the rules committee made it look a little messy, but the final ruling was correct and the 2-stroke penalty is what the rules call for. No reason to bow out.

...<Tiger Woods> is the game of golf in this era...

Whoa...certainly not for me, and I would venture to say many others would agree. I loved what one analyst said on The Golf Channel this morning while they were analyzing the situation. He said that "Tiger didn't break the rules intentionally. He's not a cheater. Oh he's a cheater OFF the golf course. But not on the course." I wouldn't doubt the analyst will catch some grief, but he was just telling it like it is. :)

[Irish Rover]

Ignorance of the rules (or laws) is not a defense. Had this not been Tiger, the perp would have been DQ'd. Tiger cannot disqualify himself but he can withdraw from the tournament. I hope the commentators will clam up about it and concentrate on the leaders and the other stories developing. Go Freddie!!!

[Golfingnut]

Ignorance of the rules (or laws) is not a defense. Had this not been Tiger, the perp would have been DQ'd. Tiger cannot disqualify himself but he can withdraw from the tournament. I hope the commentators will clam up about it and concentrate on the leaders and the other stories developing. Go Freddie!!!

I disagree, If this had been anyone else, I have faith in the professionalism of the Masters committee that they would have given the same ruling for anyone. Don't let Tigers ability nor race color you fairness.

[Scoops]

Ignorance of the rules (or laws) is not a defense. Had this not been Tiger, the perp would have been DQ'd. Tiger cannot disqualify himself but he can withdraw from the tournament. I hope the commentators will clam up about it and concentrate on the leaders and the other stories developing. Go Freddie!!!

Well said, Irish Rover. Let's see some golf!

[Golfingnut]

Well said, Irish Rover. Let's see some golf!

I agree with that, but don't blame this fiasco on Tiger.

[mrsyarbie]

I was shocked that they take calls from people watching at home, how silly is that... Can we call the NFL when the Super Bowl is being played ....

[dndlion]

Don't blame Tiger. My latest thoughts. The rule committee knew yesterday they were going to oppose a 2 stroke penalty. They knew if they imposed yesterday his starting time would have been earlier. If his tee time was earlier he would not have had as much time on Live TV coverage. So they decided to impose the penalty today with a later tee time and more $$ in the pockets with a higher TV rating....

[Golfingnut]

Don't blame Tiger. My latest thoughts. The rule committee knew yesterday they were going to oppose a 2 stroke penalty. They knew if they imposed yesterday his starting time would have been earlier. If his tee time was earlier he would not have had as much time on Live TV coverage. So they decided to impose the penalty today with a later tee time and more $$ in the pockets with a higher TV rating....

I tell ya this: What you say here makes more sense than blaming Tiger for the confusion. Most things today are about money, yet some try to find fault with the players instead of the management and I feel that is the wrong way to lean.

[rubicon]

I disagree, If this had been anyone else, I have faith in the professionalism of the Masters committee that they would have given the same ruling for anyone. Don't let Tigers ability nor race color you fairness.

There you go again. The one word that applies to this entire situation is contained in your first sentence and the the one word that has no application is race.

The entire golfing world has shown nothing but adoration for this guy's golfing acumen. They have made it clear he is golf. So when it comes to this rule violation this top of the top PROFESSIONAL PLAYER all of a sudden he did not understand the rule. Please. In my neck of the woods the response would be ""Do you think I just fell out of a tree? Finally please find a better argument then your a racist"" because it is getting so so old

I still like you. But face it tiger should have honored the integrity of this game we all love called golf and emulated Bobby Jones. I am once again disappointed in this player because he apparently lacks integrity and courage.

I opine you decide

[Golfingnut]

There you go again. The one word that applies to this entire situation is contained in your first sentence and the the one word that has no application is race.

The entire golfing world has shown nothing but adoration for this guy's golfing acumen. They have made it clear he is golf. So when it comes to this rule violation this top of the top PROFESSIONAL PLAYER all of a sudden he did not understand the rule. Please. In my neck of the woods the response would be ""Do you think I just fell out of a tree? Finally please find a better argument then your a racist"" because it is getting so so old

I still like you. But face it tiger should have honored the integrity of this game we all love called golf and emulated Bobby Jones. I am once again disappointed in this player because he apparently lacks integrity and courage.

I opine you decide

Well, I disagree with your opine totally, If you can blame this on Tiger, you have a personal reason. Tiger is following the instruction of the Masters Committee to the tee. To expect him to defy their decision would be disrespectful at the least. I don't know why, i.e. his race, talent, marital problems, or whatever, but something is clouding the thought process of anyone blaming this issue on Tiger. I give you three possibilities of your prejudice against Tiger, so pick one or come up with a fourth, but please don't blame Tiger for following the instructions of the Masters Committee.

[dndlion]

Well, I disagree with your opine totally, If you can blame this on Tiger, you have a personal reason. Tiger is following the instruction of the Masters Committee to the tee. To expect him to defy their decision would be disrespectful at the least. I don't know why, i.e. his race, talent, marital problems, or whatever, but something is clouding the thought process of anyone blaming this issue on Tiger. I give you three possibilities of your prejudice against Tiger, so pick one or come up with a fourth, but please don't blame Tiger for following the instructions of the Masters Committee.

I agree, just like you can not blame Arnold for 1958. Both Tiger and Arnold abbided by the decision of the Masters committee.

[Golfingnut]

I agree, just like you can not blame Arnold for 1958. Both Tiger and Arnold abbided by the decision of the Masters committee.

:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

Exactly. I am so sorry that negative thoughts come into my mind when someone blames the player for the decision of the referee. There are several things I could condemn Tiger for, but this is not the situation to flame him for. On the other side of the coin, I for one think he is the best golfer the world has even had to date. :duck:

[rubicon]

Well, I disagree with your opine totally, If you can blame this on Tiger, you have a personal reason. Tiger is following the instruction of the Masters Committee to the tee. To expect him to defy their decision would be disrespectful at the least. I don't know why, i.e. his race, talent, marital problems, or whatever, but something is clouding the thought process of anyone blaming this issue on Tiger. I give you three possibilities of your prejudice against Tiger, so pick one or come up with a fourth, but please don't blame Tiger for following the instructions of the Masters Committee.

golfingnut: Can you say "confirmation bias", because that is exactly what your aforemention comments amount to. Your thinking is too linear. He didn't agree with the type penalty assessed so he must be a racist.

I would have reacted in the same manner if the situation involved my favorite player Fred Couples. The Committee ruled in his favor because they know he brings in a lot of money to the golf industry. I am a purest and that explains my sole and only reason. I am not a racist ,admire his talent and ignore his private life as I do with family friends, etc live and let live. Please be more careful with throwing that racist label around. It isn't fair nor is it proper

[CFrance]

Tiger (#1 player in the world) knows the rules. He CLEARLY broke a rule of golf. He should disqualify himself. The precedent was set by Bobby Jones when he called an official over because he THOUGHT his balled moved. The official asked if anyone saw the ball move. Noone did. The Official told Bobby Jones that they should be no penalty. However, Bobby Jones said he would take the penalty because he was not sure. He LOST the major by one shot.

This decision is great for the ratings this week. It is all about the money. How many more people will watch because of this.

The rule the are citing for the 3 stroke penalty instead of disqualification says in fact "a play who "UNKNOWINGLY" breaks a rule which is brought to his attention after signing his card will be assigned a 2 stroke penalty.

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I really like Tiger Woods and enjoying watching him play. However, Tiger Woods needs to do the right thing and Disqualify Himself. Which he may yet.

Basically, you are accusing Tiger Woods of cheating. That's a pretty serious accusation. I've played tennis for 30 years. There are times when I've forgotten a rule or simply didn't know one. What about the pro football player on the Eagles (McNabb) who forgot the overtime rules? Or the coach of the Lions who threw a challenge flag when he was not allowed to and ultimately cost them the game? Are these people not professionals too "who know the rules"?

I don't think you can make such a statement.

[Golfingnut]

golfingnut: Can you say "confirmation bias", because that is exactly what your aforemention comments amount to. Your thinking is too linear. He didn't agree with the type penalty assessed so he must be a racist.

I would have reacted in the same manner if the situation involved my favorite player Fred Couples. The Committee ruled in his favor because they know he brings in a lot of money to the golf industry. I am a purest and that explains my sole and only reason. I am not a racist ,admire his talent and ignore his private life as I do with family friends, etc live and let live. Please be more careful with throwing that racist label around. It isn't fair nor is it proper

That is a real Riche post but totally twisted. For someone that claims to like me so much, you sure don't show it in the above post.

[Golfingnut]

Basically, you are accusing Tiger Woods of cheating. That's a pretty serious accusation. I've played tennis for 30 years. There are times when I've forgotten a rule or simply didn't know one. What about the pro football player on the Eagles (McNabb) who forgot the overtime rules? Or the coach of the Lions who threw a challenge flag when he was not allowed to and ultimately cost them the game? Are these people not professionals too "who know the rules"?

I don't think you can make such a statement.

Spot on post. Thanks for posting this.

[CFrance]

I was shocked that they take calls from people watching at home, how silly is that... Can we call the NFL when the Super Bowl is being played ....


I LOVE this!!!! And you are so right. Do they not have confidence in their judging abilities? I mean, this is the Masters, for Pete's sake. You don't go back and change things after the game. No one in the pros does that.

I still wanna call somebody about the miss call when the Steelers' Troy Polamalu intercepted a pass in a playoff game against the Colts in 2005, and the refs denied it. Even the NFL came out the next week and said it was a true interception and a bad call. But they didn't change anything. So should we have been able to call it in and have the bad call changed on the spot?