Hemlock Society

[Golfingnut]

I just watched a Documentary about the Oregon I-1000 bill reference a persons right to die with dignity. I would be interested in how folks in this retirement community feel about giving the right to choose when and how we end life to us rather than the government.

I would also be interested in any Hemlock Society activity that may be present in The Villages at this time. I personalty would give my full support to anyone wishing to have control of their life and the ending of their life. I have difficulty with government or religious officials having the legal decision making process over my life.

PM me if you have any information on any end of life groups in this area.

Please don't allow this to be an issue for argument. It is a simple individual right to have control over your life and no one else's.

[graciegirl]

It is wise to think about it enough to have your wishes in writing and they ask you that each time you are hospitalized.

Hugs to all of you. Good morning. Have a beautiful day.

[Parker]

I agree with the premise that one has the right to make end-of-life decisions for themselves. The problem arises when those decisions aren't entirely their own. I can envision a scenario where a compromised patient is pressured by a greedy/exhausted/distant/disinterested/broke/whatever family to make that final choice. I'm not sure free decisions are always really free after all.

[Golfingnut]

I agree with the premise that one has the right to make end-of-life decisions for themselves. The problem arises when those decisions aren't entirely their own. I can envision a scenario where a compromised patient is pressured by a greedy/exhausted/distant/disinterested/broke/whatever family to make that final choice. I'm not sure free decisions are always really free after all.

I agree with your thoughts; however, I am referring to those last few weeks when there is no HOPE and you WILL SUFFER, so giving you the right to decide that's it is time to end it is a true act of kindness and respect. Right now, you HAVE TO suffer the pain of the last days and I cannot understand why that decision is not left to the individual rather than the government. I know it is old hat to say we do it for our loved pets, but we cannot help our loved ones when they are begging us to do so. I am not sure I could say it is time even for myself, but please give me the respect as a human being to have the right to do so should I so desire it. Is this issue not a personal right and not a government decision.

[graciegirl]

I will be quiet and listen.

[redwitch]

I'm a firm believer that people have a right to make their choices so long as they cause no harm to another (suicide by cop is not acceptable). I watched my father take three years to die from cancer in the 60s. There is no way I would go through that nor subject my daughter and grandson to the agony of watching it. I had to fight tooth and nail to get the doctor to not put my mother on a resuscitator. Again, this is not something I would want my daughter to have to go through. I'm terrified of developing dementia or Alzheimer's and have no doubt that if that day comes, I will find a way to walk away. We euthanize our beloved pets when they no longer have a quality of life but deny ourselves that some privilege. All of that being said, I'm not a fan of organizations that will "help" me make those decisions. I decided my path a long time ago, have made it known to those who are important to me and have it written down. Hopefully, when (if) the time comes, I will be able to make my own choices with no one deciding for me.

[salpal]

Agree with you Golfingnut. Redwitch is right, we treat our animals better than our peers when it comes to end of life. If I were suffering, I would like to know I could obtain assistance if I so desired. I do not know of any local organizations.

I believe this issue will be the next "big thing" after gun control, abortion and immigrants are resolved, although highly unlike for that to happen.

[Parker]

Redwitch is smart to make her wishes known to her family in writing now, before the need is here. I might mention, as a nurse who has seen this many times, sometimes it is the family who fights the wishes of the patient and wants to keep the patient alive at all costs. A patient who is suffering and tired and wants to die can be forced to live, given CPR (which by the way is painful and ugly and can leave one with physical consequences like broken ribs and brain damage), ventilators, IV feedings, tubes, lines, bedpans, and constant "fiddling" by healthcare providers. Their end-of-life can be miserable. The family of this patient mean well and are trying to do the right thing, but they are not listening to the patient.

Having said all this, I try never to second-guess the family. They are often exhausted and grieving, and just trying to get through it all with compassion and a clear conscience. So do your family and yourself a huge favor, make your wishes known in writing. But if something devastating happens to your loved one without that written direction, LISTEN to the patient and try to honor their wishes, even at the expense of what you want to happen. It is their life and it is their death. There is a lot to be said for a peaceful death with dignity.

I'm concerned about this posting I'm about to make, that it might be misconstrued. But hopefully all who read it will understand that it's all about honor, dignity, choices, and compassion for the living and the dying. Nurses see it all, and see the aftermath...

[jblum315]

I remember reading a long time ago that the dying King George (father of Queen Elizabeth) was eased out of his suffering with an extra dose of morphine. The cynics said it was done so that his death could make the morning newspapers, but I believe he had a compassionate physician and no one was the wiser.

[Golfingnut]

Thank you Parker for your input. I can still see the eyes of my fathers nurse when she tiered up telling me she was doing everything she could to keep him alive due to the pleading of my mother. I could see she clearly understood that he was in pain and had no connection to reality due to advanced cancer and multiple strokes that had him in a complete vegetative state, diapered and without a shred of hope.

[Parker]

My sympathies Golfingnut. Your mother no doubt thought she was doing the right thing, but she just didn't know. Its all so difficult.

[senior citizen]

I remember reading a long time ago that the dying King George (father of Queen Elizabeth) was eased out of his suffering with an extra dose of morphine. The cynics said it was done so that his death could make the morning newspapers, but I believe he had a compassionate physician and no one was the wiser.

I've read the same exact thing about Jackie Kennedy's "end".
I remember as she died the same day as my Irish stepfather.....

Actually, as part of palliative or comfort care now (in skilled nursing homes) we experienced them administering shots of morphine quite frequently on the last day.......the nurse sat by my side, actually.....and I watched her administer the morphine very frequently to my 91 year old mom........who had agreed to the "comfort care" which is also called palliative care (when she was admitted 18 months earlier). A little background; they didn't begin this until she could no longer swallow.
She had stopped swallowing food and even water..........so all that was given were "swabs" to moisten her mouth. It took about 24 hours.

I don't think people really suffer nowadays. A friend who passed recently was on a lot of morphine at the end; her husband said she suffered no pain at all, no distress.......this death was from lung cancer.

Times have changed.......hospice and nursing homes do know what they are doing to ease the patient's "sendoff" as well as the loved ones sitting with them at the end.........if that's any comfort.

We saw that Oregon documentary also. I have no problem with the Hemlock Society.........if that's what a person chooses.

[Golfingnut]

I've read the same exact thing about Jackie Kennedy's "end".
I remember as she died the same day as my Irish stepfather.....

Actually, as part of palliative or comfort care now (in skilled nursing homes) we experienced them administering shots of morphine quite frequently on the last day.......the nurse sat by my side, actually.....and I watched her administer the morphine very frequently to my 91 year old mom........who had agreed to the "comfort care" which is also called palliative care (when she was admitted 18 months earlier). A little background; they didn't begin this until she could no longer swallow.
She had stopped swallowing food and even water..........so all that was given were "swabs" to moisten her mouth. It took about 24 hours.

I don't think people really suffer nowadays. A friend who passed recently was on a lot of morphine at the end; her husband said she suffered no pain at all, no distress.......this death was from lung cancer.

Times have changed.......hospice and nursing homes do know what they are doing to ease the patient's "sendoff" as well as the loved ones sitting with them at the end.........if that's any comfort.

We saw that Oregon documentary also. I have no problem with the Hemlock Society.........if that's what a person chooses.

Very comforting post. Thanks Senior Citizen. I believe you are correct in in your view of the vast majority of Hospice and Nursing Homes.

[Barefoot]

I'm terrified of developing dementia or Alzheimer's and have no doubt that if that day comes, I will find a way to walk away.

Anyone interested in this subject should read the book "Still Alice" by Lisa Genova. An excellent book.

My mother died a painful, lingering death from brain and bone cancer, despite morphine injections. I believe in a person's right to choose the time and mannor of death. My concern is, of course, what safeguards could be put in place because each situation is unique.

[asianthree]

we've been thinking about this long and hard being in the medical field you always ask if you have an advance directive. We have three children a doctor, a nurse, and psychologist. Even though we have expressed our wishes I'm sure in the end our three intelligent children will have differences of opinion. Your doctor and a second doctor needs to make you incompetent of making decisions and then if you have written expressions they should be carried out however, sometimes family have difficulty in the end

[rayschic]

You might be interested in this website.

Hemlock Society & Foundation of Florida (http://www.hemlockflorida.org/hospices.htm)

[tucson]

I worked for Hospice as a CNA and during that time the patients I took care of were very comfortable (that is why Hospice came into being), between the Drs, nurses, cna's, social workers, pastoral staff and family, the patients are seldom alone and without tender loving care. I didn't encounter any tremendous suffering b/c of the types of pain meds that is administered to keep the patient comfortable.

[Golfingnut]

I worked for Hospice as a CNA and during that time the patients I took care of were very comfortable (that is why Hospice came into being), between the Drs, nurses, cna's, social workers, pastoral staff and family, the patients are seldom alone and without tender loving care. I didn't encounter any tremendous suffering b/c of the types of pain meds that is administered to keep the patient comfortable.

Another comforting post from someone that knows. thank you.

[senior citizen]

Very comforting post. Thanks Senior Citizen. I believe you are correct in in your view of the vast majority of Hospice and Nursing Homes.


You are very welcome.

My mom's end was very peaceful. I had never seen anyone die before.

When my father died, we had all just left the hospital and arrived home, only to get a phone call that he had passed. Nowadays, staff is much more responsive to the family's needs as well as the patient's needs. But, that's the difference between 1969 and 2003.

If I could, I would have kept her forever......and after she was "gone" I kept thinking of the comfort care as "deyhdration" with the stoppage of fluids.......both of us would get very dry mouths...and think about Mom.

I understand it all much better now, in this place and time.

Truthfully, no one can live forever.........so make the most of all of our days while here.........

[blueash]

There really is no governmental intrusion into your decision to die, other than statutes that may make suicide illegal which are difficult to prosecute post mortem, the government instead makes it illegal for some else to assist you. While this may seem to be a distinction without a difference what the law does is regulate other people. It is what got Kevorkian in jail for many years. Of course the difficulty is that by the time you'd want someone to assist you with dying, you may be too incapacitated to kill yourself. I'd agree that the laws need revision as we can't all travel to Oregon or the Netherlands. Hospice is a wonderful option, but to ask the obvious question.. If we as a society have established by law and even with Medicare coverage, that a person at the end of life can either in home or at a facility get high dose pain relief which may accelerate death slightly and provide pain control then why can't we allow any doctor to accelerate death under the same circumstances without the Hospice process in accordance with a living will

[senior citizen]

p.s. Re the morphine.........Morpheus was the Greek God of "sleep" and that's about how it was.......she peacefully slept away..........they did have a small oxygen tank next to her bed........I asked "why?" and the R.N. said to ease her breathing.......as she passed. At first they gave me a certain spacing between the morphine shots they would be administering........but I noticed in the last several hours, they decreased the space between the shots......so they came more frequently. My mom had such a strong heart, etc...........that left to her own devices, she might have lived longer.........even without the water, which they say you can go 7 days without.

Afterwards, they let us stay in the room while we waited for the undertaker to arrive (this is a small town and everyone knows everyone, so we knew the R.N., we knew the doctor, we knew the undertaker, etc.)..............two of the young "aides" had asked permission to bathe my mom..........and wanted me to watch. Her skin was as unblemished as a baby........pink and white. Amazing for 91 year old.

After that day, I would dream of her as a very happy "younger version" of herself and I felt her spirit was truly free and she was happy.........death is nothing to fear.

[KatieDidNot]

One of the best documentaries I have ever watched is on YouTube and it is called, Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die. Make sure to choose the full documentary version. The documentary has actually won some awards.

Sir Terry Pratchett is a British Author who has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. He follows the journey of two men, one with ALS and the other with MS. He does a good job at documenting both sides of the equation.

Please note, the end does document an assisted death in Switzerland and many might not want to watch, but I think Sir Terry comes up with a great closing and allows the viewer to make up their own mind. Lots of good points to ponder in this documentary, both good and bad.

Katie

[tucson]

p.s. Re the morphine.........Morpheus was the Greek God of "sleep" and that's about how it was.......she peacefully slept away..........they did have a small oxygen tank next to her bed........I asked "why?" and the R.N. said to ease her breathing.......as she passed. At first they gave me a certain spacing between the morphine shots they would be administering........but I noticed in the last several hours, they decreased the space between the shots......so they came more frequently. My mom had such a strong heart, etc...........that left to her own devices, she might have lived longer.........even without the water, which they say you can go 7 days without.

Afterwards, they let us stay in the room while we waited for the undertaker to arrive (this is a small town and everyone knows everyone, so we knew the R.N., we knew the doctor, we knew the undertaker, etc.)..............two of the young "aides" had asked permission to bathe my mom..........and wanted me to watch. Her skin was as unblemished as a baby........pink and white. Amazing for 91 year old.

After that day, I would dream of her as a very happy "younger version" of herself and I felt her spirit was truly free and she was happy.........death is nothing to fear.

Everything you say is true, I have witnessed it myself in my own family and while working at Hospice. I had 4 patients in nursing homes that (both) were young (mid 40's and early 50's)at the time that hospice was initiated by the Dr. and were still living a 4+ years later b/c of the great care they received from Hospice and the staff at the nursing home. I'm a big advocate of Hospice.

[Richard1366]

The movie "Soylent Green" had it right. If you havent seen it, do so, it was the last movie that Edward G Robinson acted in.

[bdabob]

My mother suffered a major stroke 10 days before Xmas in 1994 and she lingered for 6 days in a "brain dead" state with no chance of recovery. It was heartbreaking for the family.
For several years prior, she would quietly raise the issue with me that if she ever got to a point where she was medically "wired for sound", I was to obey the wishes of her Living Will and let her pass without suffering. As difficult as it was, my brother and I knew that it was her wish for the medical team not to rescusitate and to keep her comfortable. I don't think we could have done that without her expressing her wishes prior to her stroke.

[Monkei]

I remember reading a long time ago that the dying King George (father of Queen Elizabeth) was eased out of his suffering with an extra dose of morphine. The cynics said it was done so that his death could make the morning newspapers, but I believe he had a compassionate physician and no one was the wiser.

You are 100 percent correct.

[senior citizen]

Everything you say is true, I have witnessed it myself in my own family and while working at Hospice. I had 4 patients in nursing homes that (both) were young (mid 40's and early 50's)at the time that hospice was initiated by the Dr. and were still living a 4+ years later b/c of the great care they received from Hospice and the staff at the nursing home. I'm a big advocate of Hospice.

It's the place to be at the end. I have friends of my age whose daughters trained to be hospice workers and they are very dedicated.

I also know a few young moms who wanted to stay "at home" so the husbands got hospital beds and put them in the living room..........

Hospices are set up to look very "homey" so I would have no qualms having myself or a loved one there......

It's an individual choice for everyone........but "end of life" care is NOT what it used to be in the 1960's or 1970's.......they really are angels of mercy and compassion.

[senior citizen]

My mother suffered a major stroke 10 days before Xmas in 1994 and she lingered for 6 days in a "brain dead" state with no chance of recovery. It was heartbreaking for the family.
For several years prior, she would quietly raise the issue with me that if she ever got to a point where she was medically "wired for sound", I was to obey the wishes of her Living Will and let her pass without suffering. As difficult as it was, my brother and I knew that it was her wish for the medical team not to rescusitate and to keep her comfortable. I don't think we could have done that without her expressing her wishes prior to her stroke.

My mother had also signed the same thing with her living will.
After a decade with Alzheimers and 18 months approximately in close to the end stage of it........why resuscitate? She couldn't walk, talk, and at the end she couldn't swallow. But right to the end, until she lost her speech, she had her LONG TERM MEMORY and thought she was a little girl and remembered her dad's name (he died in 1919), her mom's name, etc. but nothing else..........

[Parker]

The movie "Soylent Green" had it right. If you havent seen it, do so, it was the last movie that Edward G Robinson acted in.

Soylent Green! Wow! Hadn't thought of this movie in years, but I remember that scene, and it always seemed like a such a great option. Think I'm going to watch it again. :mademyday:

[Madelaine Amee]

Unfortunately, I have had some first hand family knowledge of the Right to Die question. My Mother, who was a brilliant woman, was diagnosed with cancer and somehow or other found out how many "pills" she needed to have on hand to end her suffering. As her cancer metastasized and the pain became impossible for her to handle, she took her pills and unfortunately was found by a kind neighbor who grew concerned when she did not see her the next morning. She was found in a coma and kept alive for a month, until my sister (a senior RN) finally convinced the hospital to "pull the plug".

Now my sister, who also has her pills, has disappeared into the black hole called dementia. She probably has no idea now of taking any pills to ease her way out of this world. She is a widow and has no children. Her attorney is her executor and has arranged to have her taken care of in her own home until it is no longer safe to leave her alone.

So you have two scenarios where the person in question has tried to provide for their right to die with dignity and been unable to do so. How much better it would be if we had a legal right to die with dignity.

[senior citizen]

The movie "Soylent Green" had it right. If you havent seen it, do so, it was the last movie that Edward G Robinson acted in.

We saw that in 1968..........remember the high price of meat hanging in the shop? It's now just about that price.

So, we all have the beautiful vision on the large screen to look forward to, before they turn us all into fertilizer?????????? Yikes.