Suicide and real estate disclosure

[Parker]

The house next door is in the foreclosure process. One of the owners committed suicide about 2-3 years ago and its been empty since. My question is this: When it finally goes on sale, will the agent be required to disclose the suicide, or will the buyers learn after they close and move in? Most of us neighbors know, so they are sure to discover this at some point, though they certainly won't hear it from me. The death was particularly grim and will disturb even the most even-tempered person.

So are there any real estate legal folks out there who know this answer?

[gomoho]

Real Estate Practice and Principles 36th edition states "Florida statute mandates that a property was, or was at any time supected to have been, the site of a homicde, suicide, or death is not a material fact in a real estate transaction" so is not required to be disclosed by a property owner or a real estate licensee.

Cannot speak for Village Sales Agents that do not operate under the same code of ethics required of MLS REALTORS.

[gocubsgo]

Same holds true for haunted houses. If the present owner has had any type of paranormal activity in the house, he is supposed to inform the real estate agent about it.

[graciegirl]

[quote=gomoho;668750]Real Estate Practice and Principles 36th edition states "Florida statute mandates that a property was, or was at any time supected to have been, the site of a homicde, suicide, or death is not a material fact in a real estate transaction" so is not required to be disclosed by a property owner or a real estate licensee.

quote]

I think that gomoho just explained it did NOT have to be disclosed.

[asianthree]

it will show up when the homeowner policy is done...All claims follow a home so if hazmet came to do the clean up its on the policy

[galeforce]

Real Estate Practice and Principles 36th edition states "Florida statute mandates that a property was, or was at any time supected to have been, the site of a homicde, suicide, or death is not a material fact in a real estate transaction" so is not required to be disclosed by a property owner or a real estate licensee.

Cannot speak for Village Sales Agents that do not operate under the same code of ethics required of MLS REALTORS.

So is the key word there might be "suspected". Most states mandate "if known", it must be disclosed to the buyer. In, Florida, I'm not sure, but the wording makes me suspicious.

[Phanatic Luvr]

So is the key word there might be "suspected". Most states mandate "if known", it must be disclosed to the buyer. In, Florida, I'm not sure, but the wording makes me suspicious.

gomoho is correct. Does NOT have to be disclosed.

[YouNeverKnow]

gomoho is correct. Does NOT have to be disclosed.
I believe if a potential buyer asks the real estate agent if there was a death in the residence, the have to disclose it to them.

[John_W]

Our neighbor just sold their CYV and neither the seller nor agent disclosed to the buyer that there was a major water leak in the slab of a 1-1/2 year old home. Last September when our neighbors came for a short stay they discovered the M/Bath and M/BR were flooded with water. A pipe under the slab had sprung a leak. TV Warranty Department fixed the problem, it took three weeks to repair. They had sledgehammers going through the floor, all the drywall, cabinets and flooring had to be ripped out and replaced with new.

Six weeks ago our neighbors came for another short stay in March, but while here they decided to buy a new CYV in Sanibel and put this CYV on the market with TV Real Estate.

Two days after they left a man along with a couple came by the home while I was in the yard, the man said, come meet your new neighbors. The home was sold, the couple said they were Canadians and just wanted to use the home for a couple of months a year since the man still worked.

The following week I saw the couple again, and they said they had just closed that morning and they were dropping off a few items and then would be headed back to Canada. The neighbor across the street said, did they tell you about the water leak in the slab? The couple looked shocked and said, what do you mean. They immediately went inside and called TV Realtor. The next day I saw the couple as they were packing the car and were getting ready to leave. The woman said to me, if I had known about the leak, I would of never bought this home. I asked what did the realtor say, she said that since it was repaired by the warranty department, it did not need to be disclosed. They got in their car and started the engine and the woman said when they get back to Canada, they were going to contact a lawyer.

The listing and photo are still online if you use search, here they are below. However, it is no longer on the TV Homes website. I would believe that not giving out such pertinent information is bad dealing by TV Real Estate, then again the realtor is working for the seller and not the buyer.

Properties of The Villages (http://www.thevillages.com/homes/vls/pohdetail/vlsdetail4.aspx?vlsnum=213152)

http://www.thevillages.com/homes/vls/pohdetail/Images/ImageDisplay.ashx?pid=10758&name=213152_1&w=400&h=300

[Parker]

Thanks to all for your input. I must say it makes me cringe to think of buyers moving in to their new home only to learn AFTERWARD of something so grisly happening there, as this particular suicide was not at all ordinary. Just seems wrong. What do you think?

[Taltarzac725]

Thanks to all for your input. I must say it makes me cringe to think of buyers moving in to their new home only to learn AFTERWARD of something so grisly happening there, as this particular suicide was not at all ordinary. Just seems wrong. What do you think?

Florida Laws on Stigmatized Property | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/list_7200280_florida-laws-stigmatized-property.html)

I would want to know about that. I guess it pays to talk to some of the neighbors around a house you are interested in purchasing.

[Trayderjoe]

While admittedly a muder in a home might give me a little pause (I would re-examine the history of the area) before purchasing, my only concern with a death would be that the home was properly cleaned so that I would not be worried about biological hazards still present (and if there are no disclosure requirements I guess a little faith is needed). Yes, suicide can be upsetting, but if you really think about it, there is a percentage of people who pass in their homes in the Villages (many people who live in the Villages refer to themselves as "Frogs" afterall!). If the nature of one's passing bothers you enough that it impacts your plans to purchase, you probably always need to buy a brand new home (and even this doesn't guarantee anything).

[billethkid]

why would it matter unless your religion has a thing about such a happening....which I doubt.

I can understand that for some folks it would be personally unacceptable for whatever reason.

btk

[justjim]

Suicide or death in a home I purchased would not be an important issue with me but my wife just said it would be for her. We once looked at a Villa here in TV that had a cemetery behind it---we quickly said thanks but no thanks. Bottom line--- what "bothers" one person doesn't another. However, law or no law, my integrity is important to me and I would disclose the suicide if I knew about it and would be disappointed with my real estate agent if he/she didn't disclose the suicide to a buyer.

[kstew43]

as a south florida realtor I am required to give re-sale buyers all information that is presented in the sellers disclosure, that is florida law. sellers sign and buyers sign the disclosure statement..

The sellers are obligated to disclose all information that they are aware of as far as the condition of there home. In regards to deaths in the home, natural deaths do not need to be disclosed. Murders/suicides should be disclosed on that disclosure.

I sold a home that the sellers did not disclose roof leaks and no evidence was found by the buyers home inspectors, but the roof leaked into closets and led to massive water damage, and the buyers sued the seller and won.

in regards to the water leaks, the sellers did know that had happened and it was required to be disclosed.

[graciegirl]

I don't believe in haunted houses and I don't believe in ghosts.

I do believe in meth labs. And I wouldn't want to buy any home that had one.

What happened to the meth lab house?

[downeaster]

Florida Laws on Stigmatized Property | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/list_7200280_florida-laws-stigmatized-property.html)

I would want to know about that. I guess it pays to talk to some of the neighbors around a house you are interested in purchasing.

Good advice, Taltarzac. It is better to find out before the fact rather than after. The same information found after the fact may not have been a deal breaker had it been known before the fact but it could be disturbing.

As a former Florida real estate broker I could tell some interesting stories on neighbors' involvement in the sales process.

[2BNTV]

Some things just creep people out like being near a cementary.

I think gomoho is legally right. For some people, they might feel a moral obligation to be told.

[Cantwaittoarrive]

In most cases when you buy a foreclosure it comes "as is" with no disclosures. Once a house has been foreclosed the "bank" is the new owner and would not have first hand knowledge of any events that may or may not have taken place concerning the property.

[OldManTime]

Its the Law, full disclosure, if not disclosed the realtor faces triple damages

[SALYBOW]

I cannot imagine a Realtor who would be so unprofessional as to share a clients personal information so cavalierly. Unbeknownst to me I once bought a home in which a woman had died of a heart attack. I managed to live there happily for 19 years and move on to three new homes in spite of that. A death or a suicide does not "put a hex" on a home. If informed you just might put one on it mentally.

I was really less stressed before I knew about the death in my home. Why would someone want to know this? :shrug:

[graciegirl]

I cannot imagine a Realtor who would be so unprofessional as to share a clients personal information so cavalierly. Unbeknownst to me I once bought a home in which a woman had died of a heart attack. I managed to live there happily for 19 years and move on to three new homes in spite of that. A death or a suicide does not "put a hex" on a home. If informed you just might put one on it mentally.

I was really less stressed before I knew about the death in my home. Why would someone want to know this? :shrug:

I agree Salybow.

In Europe, many homes are literally centuries old and many people have been born or died in those homes.

I think if we dwell on things we can cause fear to happen. Being born and dying is part of everyones life on earth.

[blueash]

So is the key word there might be "suspected". Most states mandate "if known", it must be disclosed to the buyer. In, Florida, I'm not sure, but the wording makes me suspicious.

No, the wording is very clear here. "was, or was at anytime suspected" The first was takes care of the known suicide or homicide or death. The second phrase covers where it may have happened. The same statute covers HIV/AIDS which is not required to be disclosed. The florida realtor association has a several page disclosure form for the seller to provide however it seems to be their form not one required by law. The only laws I could find were related to flood plains, property taxes and few other minor concerns.

Here is the best summary I could find: FAR-Legal Center-Ask an Attorney-Disclosure Legal FAQs (http://www.floridarealtors.org/LegalCenter/AskanAttorney/Disclosure-Legal-FAQs-Q4.cfm)

"A seller isn’t required to fill out a seller’s disclosure statement regardless of whether the seller occupied the property or not.

However, pursuant to the Florida Supreme Court case Johnson vs. Davis, a seller is required to disclose known facts that materially affect the value of the property that are not known and readily observable to the buyer."

It seems to allow a lot of wiggle room for the seller to decide what is a material fact, like repaired plumbing. The purpose of the cited law is to categorize suicide... as not being a fact that needs to be disclosed. Maybe we could encourage Rep. O'Toole to draft legislation requiring a fuller property disclosure similar to the realtor's form, as I believe most other states already do.

[gocubsgo]

People need to be more open minded when it comes to hauntings. The house I moved from in Chicago was so haunted, I had paranormal investigators from around the country lined up to come in and do research. I didn't stay long enough to wait for the results!

THAT house was built in 1885 and was built in an area where there were over 400 John and Jane Doe's buried from a local mental asylum. The realtor never told us the history of the area and as a result, that house and several other houses in a 3 block area were haunted. I'll never forget what happened to us in that house but...on topic...the realtor never said a word.

[jflynn1]

Our neighbor just sold their CYV and neither the seller nor agent disclosed to the buyer that there was a major water leak in the slab of a 1-1/2 year old home. Last September when our neighbors came for a short stay they discovered the M/Bath and M/BR were flooded with water. A pipe under the slab had sprung a leak. TV Warranty Department fixed the problem, it took three weeks to repair. They had sledgehammers going through the floor, all the drywall, cabinets and flooring had to be ripped out and replaced with new.

Six weeks ago our neighbors came for another short stay in March, but while here they decided to buy a new CYV in Sanibel and put this CYV on the market with TV Real Estate.

Two days after they left a man along with a couple came by the home while I was in the yard, the man said, come meet your new neighbors. The home was sold, the couple said they were Canadians and just wanted to use the home for a couple of months a year since the man still worked.

The following week I saw the couple again, and they said they had just closed that morning and they were dropping off a few items and then would be headed back to Canada. The neighbor across the street said, did they tell you about the water leak in the slab? The couple looked shocked and said, what do you mean. They immediately went inside and called TV Realtor. The next day I saw the couple as they were packing the car and were getting ready to leave. The woman said to me, if I had known about the leak, I would of never bought this home. I asked what did the realtor say, she said that since it was repaired by the warranty department, it did not need to be disclosed. They got in their car and started the engine and the woman said when they get back to Canada, they were going to contact a lawyer.

The listing and photo are still online if you use search, here they are below. However, it is no longer on the TV Homes website. I would believe that not giving out such pertinent information is bad dealing by TV Real Estate, then again the realtor is working for the seller and not the buyer.

Properties of The Villages (http://www.thevillages.com/homes/vls/pohdetail/vlsdetail4.aspx?vlsnum=213152)

http://www.thevillages.com/homes/vls/pohdetail/Images/ImageDisplay.ashx?pid=10758&name=213152_1&w=400&h=300 Evidently they purchased the home from a sales agent of the Villages who do not operate under the same disclosure issues of the the rest of Florida Lcensed Realtors.

[DougB]

Just curious, why would you have to disclose anything if the repair was done correctly by a licensed contractor? I've had another house on the east for the last 20 years, don't think when I sell I will remember all the repairs done to disclose.

[graciegirl]

We have had many real estate transactions over the course of our 51 year marriage.

We have worked with the same Villages agent on two homes here in the last six, almost seven years and were basically looking for a second home about two years after buying the first one, as we planned to make the move to a year 'round home.

In the ins and outs of looking with Jim McLaughlin: our villages agent and looking without him at open houses by The Villages and by MLS agents you learn a lot. And absorb a lot in the way of climate in the real estate market locally.

Jim is a villager and he told us truthful answers to the questions we posed to him and a lot of the truthful answers were "I honestly don't know". Jim also told me that there are a couple of "pushy" agents who work for The Villages. I imagine that perhaps there are those that maybe we wouldn't have liked as well as Jim and perhaps there are some that are not as honest.

The truth is that these houses for sale here are in one of the hottest real estate markets in this country. You don't have to lie and cover up and be tricky to sell them.

[DonH57]

I once had a home that had paranormal occurences happen and at the time since we never felt threatened and was some what curious I now wish I spent time researching the property. It was never disclosed by the realtor if something did happen there.

[jimmy D]

Evidently they purchased the home from a sales agent of the Villages who do not operate under the same disclosure issues of the the rest of Florida Lcensed Realtors.

The Florida Real Estate Laws are the same for ANY Licensed Agent in the State of Florida. There is no special Laws for REALTORS only.

[bmarlo767]

I can not think what any one would care what happened in the house if it did not affect
the structure of the house. There was a death in the house, Happens a lot in the Villages
Same with the water Leak, I would be glad it happened before,Instead of after I purchased
the home.

[OnTrack]

I would want to know if a water leak (especially of the magnitude described) occurred, so that I could at least make an informed decision on whether I'm willing to take the risk it will happen again.

In other words, was it just a fluke and a one time occurrence...or endemic of other serious problems?

Water lines embedded in the slabs of almost new houses...don't just break.

There's a reason for it.


.

[jmac1031]

Disclose- disclose -disclose is always best- especially when you know the neighbors will share. Speaking as an experienced real estate agent who believes in maintaining positive long term relationships with clients.

[dalecrenshaw]

The house next door is in the foreclosure process. One of the owners committed suicide about 2-3 years ago and its been empty since. My question is this: When it finally goes on sale, will the agent be required to disclose the suicide, or will the buyers learn after they close and move in? Most of us neighbors know, so they are sure to discover this at some point, though they certainly won't hear it from me. The death was particularly grim and will disturb even the most even-tempered person.

So are there any real estate legal folks out there who know this answer?

I was in Real Estate for 30 yrs. in California and we had to disclose a suicide, death by any means whether by natural causes, accident, murder or suicide for 3 years after the event.

[OnTrack]

Disclose- disclose -disclose is always best- especially when you know the neighbors will share. Speaking as an experienced real estate agent who believes in maintaining positive long term relationships with clients.

Excellent!

You sound like the kind of agent I would like to have...and that we need more of. :thumbup:

.

[OnTrack]

I was in Real Estate for 30 yrs. in California and we had to disclose a suicide, death by any means whether by natural causes, accident, murder or suicide for 3 years after the event.

The same in my previous state.

It only seems proper to do such.

.

[TrudyM]

You can always make your own disclosure questionnaire part of the contract. We have moved a lot and not trusting or wanting to get into the laws of a state we are new to we have a list of disclosure questions that we require as part of the contract. You can always modify any contract to fit your comfort. If they don't accept they don't accept. I am known for crossing out what I don't like (make sure to initial and date) add addendums and generally change up the standard forms it drives realtors nuts.

[mulligan]

I would want to know if a water leak (especially of the magnitude described) occurred, so that I could at least make an informed decision on whether I'm willing to take the risk it will happen again.

In other words, was it just a fluke and a one time occurrence...or endemic of other serious problems?

Water lines embedded in the slabs of almost new houses...don't just break.

There's a reason for it.


.

Water lines are buried before the slab is poured. They are not embedded in the concrete. Yes, they may fail, but it is usually caused by a bad glue joint.

[graciegirl]

On the home we sold in Ohio, that we built and lived in for 23 years, our basement flooded three months before we put it on sale due to a really, really, unusually heavy rainy spring and an extremely heavy rain, it had never happened before, we had the basement floor ripped up and had a French drain installed, along with a life time guarantee that the basement was protected in writing from the contractor who installed the French drain.

Now that is something we had to disclose. That is the real estate law of Ohio, whether we sold it personally, or an MLS agent sold it who is married to the Speaker of the House of the United States sold it. That is Ohio law.

Florida laws on disclosure are different than Ohio laws on real estate disclosure. That still means that if you sell it yourself, if an MLS agent sells it or a Villages sales agent sells it, the law is the law and real estate disclosure laws must be followed.

If there was a big problem with water lines, I am pretty danged sure we would have heard it on this forum. We heard about unburied air conditioning lines on this forum. It is important that that much water is disclosed because of the danger of mold.

We watched this house being built, daily, and watched the other houses being built around us, it was very interesting and fun to watch. We watched a total of seven homes bring built for us and two for our chldren over the course of our lifetime. The last two were custom homes by one of Cincinnati's good builders. The home we built here was the most skillfully built of all and the builders were the most careful. It was amazing how they do it with crews who just do one thing and are expert at it. The finishing tile in the kitchen was put in and the builder had it removed and done again because he didn't like how it was done. We were at this site at least once a day and sometimes twice and three times and lived next door, behind and across the street from homes that we watched after we moved in.

But to the point of the thread. Disclosure of person killing themselves in the home. What is important to one is not important to another, but the law must be followed. You can't get away with anything in The Villages.

The truth will out.

[OnTrack]

Water lines are buried before the slab is poured. They are not embedded in the concrete. Yes, they may fail, but it is usually caused by a bad glue joint.
I guess I'm too used to how they build radiant floor heating (in the concrete). :oops:

As to why it failed, it could be due to a multitude of reasons.

The point being, if it happened once so soon...could it happen again?

The buyer should at least be afforded the information, so that they can make the decision for themselves.

.

[kstew43]

Natural death such as heart attack or old age does not carry the same the same stigma as a homicide or suicide.

[bmarlo767]

Natural death such as heart attack or old age does not carry the same the same stigma as a homicide or suicide.
Does not make any difference They are just as dead either way.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Same holds true for haunted houses. If the present owner has had any type of paranormal activity in the house, he is supposed to inform the real estate agent about it.

Did you read gomoho's post? It says that deaths, homicides or suicides do not have to be disclosed.
Why would anything as silly as paranormal activity have to be disclosed?

[asianthree]

People need to be more open minded when it comes to hauntings. The house I moved from in Chicago was so haunted, I had paranormal investigators from around the country lined up to come in and do research. I didn't stay long enough to wait for the results!

THAT house was built in 1885 and was built in an area where there were over 400 John and Jane Doe's buried from a local mental asylum. The realtor never told us the history of the area and as a result, that house and several other houses in a 3 block area were haunted. I'll never forget what happened to us in that house but...on topic...the realtor never said a word.

Yup have them in KY too lots of field battles there

[gocubsgo]

Did you read gomoho's post? It says that deaths, homicides or suicides do not have to be disclosed.
Why would anything as silly as paranormal activity have to be disclosed?

Silly?? Wow..Maybe you should have lived in my previous house for a week or so. You wouldn't have thought it was silly.

[Quixote]

I agree Salybow.

In Europe, many homes are literally centuries old and many people have been born or died in those homes.

I think if we dwell on things we can cause fear to happen. Being born and dying is part of everyones life on earth.

Although I know this is a generalization, Americans characteristically have such a focus on death. I agree with Salybow (“A death or a suicide does not ‘put a hex’ on a home”) and Graciegirl (“Being born and dying is part of everyones life on earth”). Death is an integral part of life, yet the focus on disclosure seems to make it something abnormal or out of this world. You don’t find this attitude prevalent in much of the rest of the world. Why do we make such a thing about it?

[Quixote]

Silly?? Wow..Maybe you should have lived in my previous house for a week or so. You wouldn't have thought it was silly.

Agreed, paranormal activity that seems to belong to a house (rather than to its occupants) is not a fantasy; it may not be horrific, but it certainly isn't "silly".... I too know of very real experiences of others--real indeed!

[graciegirl]

Agreed, paranormal activity that seems to belong to a house (rather than to its occupants) is not a fantasy; it may not be horrific, but it certainly isn't "silly".... I too know of very real experiences of others--real indeed!

When a door would close on it's own, or if the wind blew it, my German grandmother would say...hintergiest or poltergeist. I only know that geist means ghost. What does the other part mean and tell us about your spooked house too, Gocubsgo.

I don't want to believe in the paranormal and I haven't had anything paranormal happen to me so I am a bit of a sceptic.

My mother died when I was born and when I was a little girl I would pray that she came and tell me that she loved me, but she never did.

Wow. Is this getting personal and scary?

[Patty55]

I'm still trying to figure out the "grisly suicide" story. I thought I knew, but the one I thought it was happened more than two years ago.

I believe in paranormal activity, have experienced it. I think it really doesn't have to be in the location of passing, but people who are receptive are more likely to be visited.

[asianthree]

When a door would close on it's own, or if the wind blew it, my German grandmother would say...hintergiest or poltergeist. I only know that geist means ghost. What does the other part mean and tell us about your spooked house too, Gocubsgo.

I don't want to believe in the paranormal and I haven't had anything paranormal happen to me so I am a bit of a sceptic.

My mother died when I was born and when I was a little girl I would pray that she came and tell me that she loved me, but she never did.

Wow. Is this getting personal and scary?

You may not know it but, She watches you every day.

[gocubsgo]

When a door would close on it's own, or if the wind blew it, my German grandmother would say...hintergiest or poltergeist. I only know that geist means ghost. What does the other part mean and tell us about your spooked house too, Gocubsgo.

I don't want to believe in the paranormal and I haven't had anything paranormal happen to me so I am a bit of a sceptic.

My mother died when I was born and when I was a little girl I would pray that she came and tell me that she loved me, but she never did.

Wow. Is this getting personal and scary?

Maybe you HAVE had paranormal activity happen to you but because you are a skeptic, you didn't notice it! That was deep, huh?

Maybe it's my Irish ancestry but I have always had paranormal activity around me. This house in Chicago as I said was built on a John Doe cemetery of asylum patients.Our neighbor's had so much activity in their house, they moved out after 4 months. I stuck it out for 2 years and that was long enough. There was a Catholic priest who was new to the area and went around the neighborhood introducing himself. He came to my door and I invited him in. He stepped into the living room, stopped and turned white as the ghost that no doubt was there. he asked if he could come back and bless the house because he sensed something evil in it. After the blessing, the activity actually got worse...banging on closet doors all night, windows and bathroom mirrors breaking, rocking chairs rocking forward and backward HARD but the quilt draped over the back never moving and conversations...you could sit in a room and hear voices all around you like a party was going on. That's only a part of it.
I have a wonderful ghost picture from the Dungeon's in SC that I took last year. If I can figure out how to post it, I will.

[DonH57]

I believe some people are more intuitive and sensitive than others due to several factors. I am somewhat of a sceptic, but it's an area of study I'm really interested in more and more as I get older because I don't believe in having a completely closed mind to things I don't yet understand.

[Quixote]

I believe some people are more intuitive and sensitive than others due to several factors. I am somewhat of a sceptic, but it's an area of study I'm really interested in more and more as I get older because I don't believe in having a completely closed mind to things I don't yet understand.

The emphasis in the quote above is mine, and of course I have no way of knowing what "factors" DonH57 is considering. I had posted this on another thread and my response to the emphasized comment is below. One can be a skeptic, but as long as one keeps an open mind, then there's a world of potential knowledge to be gained!

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For what it's worth, the best friend of a cousin of mine is a psychic. Her explanation for this is what I emphasized above in part of the quoted comments [some folks are just more in tune with things spiritual or unseen…]. This woman has been called on by her local police to do everything from finding a body to locating evidence and has done things like this time and again. She has also served people in her community in matters relevant to her abilities.

She makes one point about her ability to do this that she says is crucial, and that is that it's a gift that she's been given, and it's her responsibility to use that gift to serve others. Consequently, she absolutely and categorically refuses, EVER, to accept any form of payment or gift or do anything (such as a lecture circuit or a book) that would generate personal income for her, stemming from her using her psychic abilities. She feels that it would be simply wrong to "capitalize" on her psychic abilities and does not agree with those who say that there is benefit to sharing what it's all about for her and be somehow paid for doing so. Her view is to simply use the skills to serve others. I mention this without comment other than to explain that this is simply her point of view....

------------------------------------------

This woman helps individuals as well, not just governmental agencies, again refusing ever to consider accepting a gift or payment. She was called to the home of a couple whose young adult child (who still lived at the family home) had committed suicide, seemingly out of the clear blue and with no explanation. The parents were naturally devastated and confused.

She spent a while sitting and chatting with the parents, listening to everything they said which by and large were expressions of feelings rather than anything concrete. She then asked if she could spend some time in the child’s room, just to get a “feel” or “sense” of something—anything at all. After doing so, she came back downstairs to where the parents were sitting and apologetically explained that, unusual as it was, she had sensed nothing and regretfully could offer them no explanation and no solace other than her condolences.

She then added that the only thought or picture that had come to her mind made no sense and seemed completely irrelevant but that she would run it past them. She asked them if a “penguin” would seem to have any meaning to them in relation to their child, explaining that that image kept coming to her. The parents could not connect a penguin with anything, told her that it seemed meaningless to them, and she left.

Several months later the parents finally confronted dealing with the child’s room, packing up clothing, books, music, equipment that they had no wish to keep, and so forth. Suddenly, out of one book, a favorite of the child’s who had spoken about it to the parents in the past as having been very moved by it, fell what turned out to be a suicide note, the contents of which at least offered an explanation for the child’s rejection of life, though sadly nothing more. The book had been published by Random House and was part of the Penguin Library series.

The parents naturally contacted the psychic to tell her; she in turn felt relieved that at least the parents had some degree of answer for these devastated people. And to her, serving others with this unique skill (if that’s even the right word) was ALL that mattered....

[jbrocco]

The house next door is in the foreclosure process. One of the owners committed suicide about 2-3 years ago and its been empty since. My question is this: When it finally goes on sale, will the agent be required to disclose the suicide, or will the buyers learn after they close and move in? Most of us neighbors know, so they are sure to discover this at some point, though they certainly won't hear it from me. The death was particularly grim and will disturb even the most even-tempered person.

So are there any real estate legal folks out there who know this answer?

In New Jersey the agent is only required to disclose it if directly asked by the buyer. It may be the same in Florida. There is nowhere on a disclosure that says" has someone died in the home." It strictly talks about structural concerns. In most 55+ communities, most buyers do expect there to be deceased owner, in an estate sale. Ususally no one asks how they died.

[senior citizen]

People need to be more open minded when it comes to hauntings. The house I moved from in Chicago was so haunted, I had paranormal investigators from around the country lined up to come in and do research. I didn't stay long enough to wait for the results!

THAT house was built in 1885 and was built in an area where there were over 400 John and Jane Doe's buried from a local mental asylum. The realtor never told us the history of the area and as a result, that house and several other houses in a 3 block area were haunted. I'll never forget what happened to us in that house but...on topic...the realtor never said a word.

Very interesting post. Restless spirits who have died by unnatural means might linger........

However, as someone else mentioned and I was going to say myself.....in the "olden days" people were born at home and died at home.

In New England many of these older homes remain........so obviously, there have been a lot of deaths prior to new owners purchasing a home.

As my mom used to say all the time......"It's not the dead that can hurt you, but the living".........she got that from her mom..........

However, as anyone who has watched "Ghost Whisperer" ....there are nice ghosts and not so nice ghosts.

Do tell what happened in your home...........

[senior citizen]

agreed, paranormal activity that seems to belong to a house (rather than to its occupants) is not a fantasy; it may not be horrific, but it certainly isn't "silly".... I too know of very real experiences of others--real indeed!

ditto

[senior citizen]

I believe some people are more intuitive and sensitive than others due to several factors. I am somewhat of a sceptic, but it's an area of study I'm really interested in more and more as I get older because I don't believe in having a completely closed mind to things I don't yet understand.

So true......good post.

More things in heaven and Earth, Horatio definition :

A phrase used by the title character in the play Hamlet, by William Shakespeare.

Hamlet suggests that human knowledge is limited:

"THERE ARE MORE THINGS IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, HORATIO, THAN ARE DREAMT OF IN YOUR PHILOSOPHY."

[DonH57]

First off I have to say I never intended to plagerize Quixote's quote. I should have said influences instead of factors. Overall I believe our genetic make up, upbringing and enviornment help to develope any abilities we may have. I guess developement is the key. I once read somewhere that children are more prone to have experiences until it's drilled into them that there is no such thing as ghosts, or spirits or the like. It was done to me but I refused to listen.

[graciegirl]

So true......good post.

More things in heaven and Earth, Horatio definition :

A phrase used by the title character in the play Hamlet, by William Shakespeare.

Hamlet suggests that human knowledge is limited:

"THERE ARE MORE THINGS IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, HORATIO, THAN ARE DREAMT OF IN YOUR PHILOSOPHY."


I think Shakespeare had a dog too.

Didn't he say "Out damned Spot" ". ;)

[Parker]

I think Shakespeare had a dog too.

Didn't he say "Out damned Spot" ". ;)

:1rotfl: Me thinks a little levity is a very good thing.

[gocubsgo]

First off I have to say I never intended to plagerize Quixote's quote. I should have said influences instead of factors. Overall I believe our genetic make up, upbringing and enviornment help to develope any abilities we may have. I guess developement is the key. I once read somewhere that children are more prone to have experiences until it's drilled into them that there is no such thing as ghosts, or spirits or the like. It was done to me but I refused to listen.

:bowdown: Good for you! Think with an open mind and you'll be surprised what happens!

[senior citizen]

First off I have to say I never intended to plagerize Quixote's quote. I should have said influences instead of factors. Overall I believe our genetic make up, upbringing and enviornment help to develope any abilities we may have. I guess developement is the key. I once read somewhere that children are more prone to have experiences until it's drilled into them that there is no such thing as ghosts, or spirits or the like. It was done to me but I refused to listen.



Indigo children - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Children)


Read about the INDIGO CHILDREN

[DonH57]

Thank you Senior Citizen. I shall look into that article tommorrow morning.

[Quixote]

First off I have to say I never intended to plagerize Quixote's quote. I should have said influences instead of factors. Overall I believe our genetic make up, upbringing and enviornment help to develope any abilities we may have. I guess developement is the key. I once read somewhere that children are more prone to have experiences until it's drilled into them that there is no such thing as ghosts, or spirits or the like. It was done to me but I refused to listen.

I am in complete agreement with DonH57. The word makes no difference, whether “factors” or “influences.” (At first I just wasn’t sure what he was getting at.) Wherever it comes from, it’s real for some of us, as in the case of my cousin’s friend who has no idea either but just knows that she can sense things that most people cannot, that it’s a gift from somewhere that she’s been given, and that her responsibility is to use it for the good of others without expectation of reward.

I read the article about indigo children in the Wikipedia link. Here is a piece of that article:

Descriptions of indigo children include:

• the belief that they are empathetic [empathic], curious, strong-willed, independent, and often perceived by friends and family as being strange;
• possess a clear sense of self-definition and purpose;
• exhibit a strong innate sub-conscious spirituality from early childhood (which, however, does not necessarily imply a direct interest in spiritual or religious areas);
• a strong feeling of entitlement, or "deserving to be here."

Other alleged traits include:

• a high intelligence quotient, an inherent intuitive ability; and
• resistance to rigid, control-based paradigms of authority.

According to Tober and Carroll, indigo children may function poorly in conventional schools due to their rejection of rigid authority, being smarter (or more spiritually mature) than their teachers, and a lack of response to guilt-, fear- or manipulation-based discipline.

---------------------------------------

Are there any of us who have not known children who fit this description? Did some of us fit this description when we were children? Did any of our own children? Continue to be a skeptic, if that is how you feel, but as DonH suggests, at least keep an open mind!

It looks as though we’ve completely hijacked this thread about real estate disclosure. Maybe this all belongs in a new one….

[DonH57]

That's a great idea for a new post.

[graciegirl]

I am in complete agreement with DonH57. The word makes no difference, whether “factors” or “influences.” (At first I just wasn’t sure what he was getting at.) Wherever it comes from, it’s real for some of us, as in the case of my cousin’s friend who has no idea either but just knows that she can sense things that most people cannot, that it’s a gift from somewhere that she’s been given, and that her responsibility is to use it for the good of others without expectation of reward.

I read the article about indigo children in the Wikipedia link. Here is a piece of that article:

Descriptions of indigo children include:

• the belief that they are empathetic [empathic], curious, strong-willed, independent, and often perceived by friends and family as being strange;
• possess a clear sense of self-definition and purpose;
• exhibit a strong innate sub-conscious spirituality from early childhood (which, however, does not necessarily imply a direct interest in spiritual or religious areas);
• a strong feeling of entitlement, or "deserving to be here."

Other alleged traits include:

• a high intelligence quotient, an inherent intuitive ability; and
• resistance to rigid, control-based paradigms of authority.

According to Tober and Carroll, indigo children may function poorly in conventional schools due to their rejection of rigid authority, being smarter (or more spiritually mature) than their teachers, and a lack of response to guilt-, fear- or manipulation-based discipline.

---------------------------------------

Are there any of us who have not known children who fit this description? Did some of us fit this description when we were children? Did any of our own children? Continue to be a skeptic, if that is how you feel, but as DonH suggests, at least keep an open mind!

It looks as though we’ve completely hijacked this thread about real estate disclosure. Maybe this all belongs in a new one….

As a teacher, I've met a few parents who thought their children SHOULDN'T
be redirected. The parents of the children who these children were being mean to thought otherwise.

I haven't met any indigo children. Many of other colors and they were all fun to know and to teach.

I shouldn't be making light of your views, as I have said,I am skeptical....but tomorrow, I may change my mind.

I think this paranormal activity subject deserves a thread of it's own. Particulary that so many folks who I really respect are saying things I have never heard and talking about things I have never experienced.

A priest once told me that he was present at an exorcism and the ring on the subject was removed and passed to him and it burnt a mark on his hand.

That is the only experience that I can relate.

[senior citizen]

I am in complete agreement with DonH57. The word makes no difference, whether “factors” or “influences.” (At first I just wasn’t sure what he was getting at.) Wherever it comes from, it’s real for some of us, as in the case of my cousin’s friend who has no idea either but just knows that she can sense things that most people cannot, that it’s a gift from somewhere that she’s been given, and that her responsibility is to use it for the good of others without expectation of reward.

I read the article about indigo children in the Wikipedia link. Here is a piece of that article:

Descriptions of indigo children include:

• the belief that they are empathetic [empathic], curious, strong-willed, independent, and often perceived by friends and family as being strange;
• possess a clear sense of self-definition and purpose;
• exhibit a strong innate sub-conscious spirituality from early childhood (which, however, does not necessarily imply a direct interest in spiritual or religious areas);
• a strong feeling of entitlement, or "deserving to be here."

Other alleged traits include:

• a high intelligence quotient, an inherent intuitive ability; and
• resistance to rigid, control-based paradigms of authority.

According to Tober and Carroll, indigo children may function poorly in conventional schools due to their rejection of rigid authority, being smarter (or more spiritually mature) than their teachers, and a lack of response to guilt-, fear- or manipulation-based discipline.

---------------------------------------

Are there any of us who have not known children who fit this description? Did some of us fit this description when we were children? Did any of our own children? Continue to be a skeptic, if that is how you feel, but as DonH suggests, at least keep an open mind!

It looks as though we’ve completely hijacked this thread about real estate disclosure. Maybe this all belongs in a new one….

Yes, we've all known children and adults who might fit the description of Indigo children.......however, not all were....nor any, for that matter were autistic or learning disabled..........in fact they were near genius........definitely with extremely high I.Q.'s when tested. Quick learners. Bright, sharp.....intuitive and sensitive.
I might add that these children, the ones I've known anyway.........were all kindhearted and caring........because when you think of it.........anyone who is "sensitive" can also feel others' PAIN.....and others' SADNESS.

Empaths just feel things that others do not........and sense things that others do not.........just as some people are open minded and others are more rigid.

I certainly do not believe anyone who is "sensitive" to things unseen should be exorcised.

Remember what happened in Salem, Massachusetts.....just because a few teenage girls ate tainted bread from tainted rye flour.......by the way, that's a great place to visit for a long weekend........especially around Halloween in October........go down into the dungeon where they were kept. The cells were barely as wide as a typical kitchen pantry......not a walk in pantry.

Often, gifts like precognition and clairvoyance are inherited and passed down through the female side of family line.........not to say males cannot also have the gift.

People who think they do not have any such "gift" should ask themselves, "When I was last with my daughter, etc. and we finished each other's sentences before the other one could end theirs.........."......perhaps you have it also, but just aren't aware. I can finish my daughter's sentences in total.......before she's uttered two words out of her mouth. Explain that.

I've also had premonitions of those who would be "passing over" to the other side.....and within a short period......it's happened. It's not something you turn on or off..........you either have it or you don't have it.

With women, many of us just call it "women's intuition"......nothing spooky at all about that. Glad the men are acknowledging all of these psychic type events. Now , notice....I did not say psycho.

[kittygilchrist]

I relate to the thread off track as it is, as I would call myself an "empath" but not an indigo. I have met an indigo in his adulthood, Desai Panache, Indian, now in Naples, FL., an amazing psychic (who "read" my life), thoroughly joyful (annoyed me, really! too happy), follows no rules of how spiritual leaders should behave...a healer who behaved like a Pentecostal hindu playing rock music with lunatic joy. Said to have been recognized by age 7 as a healer by those standing near him. I believe he was born ready by the gift of God.