need to clear up age limit in villages please

[crummybuttons]

I was always under the impression you had to be 55 to live here. I also know just one has to be 55. My question is can the villages sell or rent homes in the villages to anyone under 40? Solve the bet here please.
Thanks

[gocubsgo]

It confuses me as well. There is a house on my street that is owned by a man in his early 70's however, he lives in Iowa and his grandson is living in the house full time. He can't be any older than maybe 30 and he's been there almost 2 years now. Apparently this is allowed because the owner is over 55. I don't get it either.

Next door to him there was an elderly couple renting their house. They had their granddaughter, her husband and 5 kids (!!!) all under the age of 10 living there. She home schooled the kids. Finally, the Deed Restriction people chased them out but to where? Another house in TV where they are all living! How do they get away with it?

[jbdlfan]

I hope your money was on being able to live here under 55!

[justjim]

In an Adult Community you have a 80/20 age rule with 20% under the age of 55. Is this enforced and who enforces it???? I have no clue but my guess would be that this is what I would call "pretty loose"----somebody would need to keep the data updated. Of course, no person on a permanent basis under 19 years of age is more easily enforced. Most believe, including me, TV is not even close to the 20% under age 55.

[crummybuttons]

Haven't won anything yet

[Bogie Shooter]

I was always under the impression you had to be 55 to live here. I also know just one has to be 55. My question is can the villages sell or rent homes in the villages to anyone under 40? Solve the bet here please.
Thanks


A few other threads on the topic.
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/renting-under-55-crowd-77664/

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/under-55-residents-73334/

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/visiting-grandchildren-72878/

[jbdlfan]

Haven't won anything yet

I own a home in TV and I am 48 and my spouse 44, does that help your bet?!?!?!?!
We rented the year before that.

[billethkid]

the age rule does not apply to resale or rental properties.....and that's the good news!!

btk

[graciegirl]

///

[graciegirl]

I own a home in TV and I am 48 and my spouse 44, does that help your bet?!?!?!?!
We rented the year before that.


Poster starting this thread who just bought a new home is 38.


https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/new-homes-cant-close-fha-71543/index7.html#post638163

[Bogie Shooter]

I'm confused???

[KeepingItReal]

Do not think there are many if any rule(s) that cannot be over ridden or ignored by the developer. Most rules are that they can be enforced but are not required to be enforced...Not enforcing a rule is the same as ignoring it.

[JB in TV]

I'm confused???



i think gracie is referring to the OP in the thread she linked being 38.

[janmcn]

Anybody that has a TV ID card is required to give their date of birth, therefore TV would have an up to the minute head count of those under 55 vs those 55 and over.

Under the Department of Housing and Urban Development 24 CFR Part 100 Implemention of the Housing for Older Persons Act of 1995; Final Rule

Section 100.307

Article (a) In order for a housing facility or community to qualify as housing for persons 55 years of age or older, it must be able to produce verification of compliance with 100.305 through reliable surveys and affidavits.

The Villages can't make up their own rules on this law.

[SusanOfWoodbury]

I was always under the impression you had to be 55 to live here. I also know just one has to be 55. My question is can the villages sell or rent homes in the villages to anyone under 40? Solve the bet here please.
Thanks

My understanding is that the villages sell/rent 10 percent of the homes to people 50 and over. Kids who go to school are only allowed to stay 30 days. As far as the elderly gentleman who has two men staying in his house, I am not sure how that works..

[KeepingItReal]

Anybody that has a TV ID card is required to give their date of birth, therefore TV would have an up to the minute head count of those under 55 vs those 55 and over.

Under the Department of Housing and Urban Development 24 CFR Part 100 Implemention of the Housing for Older Persons Act of 1995; Final Rule

Section 100.307

Article (a) In order for a housing facility or community to qualify as housing for persons 55 years of age or older, it must be able to produce verification of compliance with 100.305 through reliable surveys and affidavits.

The Villages can't make up their own rules on this law.

This document doesn't really appear to be applicable to the Villages..

Surely by now we all know there are ways around most anything...

www.hud.gov/offices/.../hopa_final.pdf
305;
There continues to be confusion
concerning what is often referred to as
the 80/20 split. HOPA states that the
minimum standard to obtain housing for
persons who are 55 years of age or older
status is that ‘‘at least 80%’’ of the
occupied units be occupied by persons
55 years or older. There is no
requirement that the remaining 20% of
the occupied units be occupied by
persons under the age of 55, nor is there
a requirement that those units be used
only for persons where at least one
member of the household is 55 years of
age or older. Communities may decline
to permit any persons under the age of
55, may require that 100% of the units
have at least one occupant who is 55
years of age or older, may permit up to
20% of the occupied units to be
occupied by persons who are younger
than 55 years of age, or set whatever
requirements they wish, as long as ‘‘at
least 80%’’ of the occupied units are
occupied by one person 55 years of age
or older, and so long as such
requirements are not inconsistent with
the overall intent to be housing for older
persons.

[HMLRHT1]

I have two friends who are in their mid to late 30's and they own their CYV and rent it out. But they lived in it with no issues for over a year.

[Bonny]

We bought a house & moved here in 2000. I was 48, hubby was 49. You can live here as long as you are 19 and up. I know several people in their 30's and own a house here.

[Barefoot]

Based on comments from a senior Villages employee, and agreeing with Justjim. ... In an Adult Community, there is a 80/20 age rule with 20% under the age of 55 permissible. No person under 19 years of age is permitted for more than a month. TV is not even close to the 20% under age 55.

[Bogie Shooter]

Do not think there are many if any rule(s) that cannot be over ridden or ignored by the developer. Most rules are that they can be enforced but are not required to be enforced...Not enforcing a rule is the same as ignoring it.

Are you saying the developer is ignoring the 80/20 law?

[Bogie Shooter]

We bought a house & moved here in 2000. I was 48, hubby was 49. You can live here as long as you are 19 and up. I know several people in their 30's and own a house here.

Based on comments from a senior Villages employee, and agreeing with Justjim. ... In an Adult Community, there is a 80/20 age rule with 20% under the age of 55 permissible. No person under 19 years of age is permitted for more than a month. TV is not even close to the 20% under age 55.

There is nothing more to be added, this is it!

[KeepingItReal]

Are you saying the developer is ignoring the 80/20 law?

Just rules in general can be enforced but are not required to be enforced and since there are no numbers available how would anyone know? (Per enforcement on deed restrictions the developer has the option to enforce rules but is not required to do so) Possibly a freedom of information request could be made but this issue is not an issue for me. Personally I am for all the younger people possible after the children are grown. Can only help property values and improve other amenities. No reason to exclude anyone based on their age alone.

[janmcn]

Just rules in general and since there are no numbers available how would anyone know? Possibly a freedom of information request could be made but this issue is not an issue for me. Personally I am for all the younger people possible after the children are grown. No reason to exclude anyone based on their age.

Under the law I quoted above, paragraph (i) states "A summary of occupancy surveys shall be available for inspection upon reasonable notice and request by any person. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2529-0046)".

It should not take a freedom of information request to obtain this information.

[KeepingItReal]

Under the law I quoted above, paragraph (i) states "A summary of occupancy surveys shall be available for inspection upon reasonable notice and request by any person. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2529-0046)".

It should not take a freedom of information request to obtain this information.

Please re-read this from my statement.....Possibly a freedom of information request could be made but this issue is not an issue for me. Personally I am for all the younger people possible after the children are grown. Can only help property values and other amenities.

[njbchbum]

I was always under the impression you had to be 55 to live here. I also know just one has to be 55. My question is can the villages sell or rent homes in the villages to anyone under 40? Solve the bet here please.
Thanks

crummybuttons - perhaps you would find a good read thru the wiki website re the villages enlightening - but take it for what it is, please....it is wikipedia, afterall.
The Villages, Florida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Villages,_Florida)
pay particular attention to footnote #10 and the answers provided there

[champion6]

I was always under the impression you had to be 55 to live here. I also know just one has to be 55. My question is can the villages sell or rent homes in the villages to anyone under 40? Solve the bet here please.One thing I'm sure of... the answers required to solve your bet will not be found on TOTV :smiley:

[graciegirl]

crummybuttons - perhaps you would find a good read thru the wiki website re the villages enlightening - but take it for what it is, please....it is wikipedia, afterall.
The Villages, Florida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Villages,_Florida)
pay particular attention to footnote #10 and the answers provided there

Here it is.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/library/hopa95.pdf

And I was so happy thinking that this was an over 55 community. I like my grown up peers. Not that I don't like younger people, but I could have moved anywhere and had a mix.

There is a general flavor that I love about folks who have lived for at least 55 years.

[Indydealmaker]

the age rule does not apply to resale or rental properties.....and that's the good news!!

btk
I am pretty sure that the deed restriction applies to all ownership with the exception of the 80/20 exception. The muddy area seems to be "rentals".

Actually, after further reading, the 55+ rules apply to occupancy not ownership, so the rentals still have to comply. If the occupants are under 55, then they must fall into the 20% bracket and in our community they cannot have children under 19.

[TraceyMooreRN]

I am 39, husband is 49--second home (new construction) bought this year-- First home also brand new purchased in 2007 ...do the math :024:
Moved here fulltime June 2012--prior to that--used our villa as rental.

You don't have to be 55 to live here. The issue is with the children :mad: ...which I don't mind. My kids are in college (one just graduated). So- life is good. I love it here. Some people ask "Why do YOU want to live here with all these old people"? I just smile and say "Wouldn't you have loved to enjoy this lifestyle in your 30s"?

Again the 80/20 split doesn't mandate 20% of "Young Folks" have to join in this lifestyle.

As far as kids--I have a friend who lives here (they are in there 60s, have a child with special needs residing with them--under 19) ...No issues.

Why does it bother anyone what others do? Too many community :police: driving around without all the knowledge. I actually had a lady tell me at the Savannah Pool--"this pool is for residents". I told her "I am a resident". She grumbled--and soon the Rec Dept was inquiring for my id. Really? I should have just told her I married a really old guy...she probably would have left me alone!

So--enjoy your neighbors. You might have more in common than you think. I have made lots of best friends--20-40 years older than me! I enjoy their company and I think I have found home forever!!!!

[jbdlfan]

Here it is.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/library/hopa95.pdf

And I was so happy thinking that this was an over 55 community. I like my grown up peers. Not that I don't like younger people, but I could have moved anywhere and had a mix.

There is a general flavor that I love about folks who have lived for at least 55 years.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Grown up peers???? Dog poop, speeding golf carts, bikes on cart paths, walkers on cart paths, stop signs.......I have yet to meet a grown up here.....

[TraceyMooreRN]

[QUOTE=graciegirl;679649]Here it is.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/library/hopa95.pdf

And I was so happy thinking that this was an over 55 community. I like my grown up peers. Not that I don't like younger people, but I could have moved anywhere and had a mix.

There is a general flavor that I love about folks who have lived for at least 55 years.

Well, Im certainly glad you have adjusted and still like The Villages, you could live anywhere for the mix--but you certainly wouldn't have found this lifestyle in its current state. Mixed or not--I love The Villages:angel:

[OnTrack]

Why does it bother anyone what others do?

Too many community :police: driving around without all the knowledge.

That's all that really needs to be said. :thumbup:



.

[OnTrack]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Grown up peers???? Dog poop, speeding golf carts, bikes on cart paths, walkers on cart paths, stop signs.......I have yet to meet a grown up here.....

:22yikes:


:a20: :a20:


:p



.

[graciegirl]

My point is made.

[chuckinca]

Boy Howdy


.

[jbdlfan]

I am 39, husband is 49--second home (new construction) bought this year-- First home also brand new purchased in 2007 ...do the math :024:
Moved here fulltime June 2012--prior to that--used our villa as rental.

You don't have to be 55 to live here. The issue is with the children :mad: ...which I don't mind. My kids are in college (one just graduated). So- life is good. I love it here. Some people ask "Why do YOU want to live here with all these old people"? I just smile and say "Wouldn't you have loved to enjoy this lifestyle in your 30s"?

Again the 80/20 split doesn't mandate 20% of "Young Folks" have to join in this lifestyle.

As far as kids--I have a friend who lives here (they are in there 60s, have a child with special needs residing with them--under 19) ...No issues.

Why does it bother anyone what others do? Too many community :police: driving around without all the knowledge. I actually had a lady tell me at the Savannah Pool--"this pool is for residents". I told her "I am a resident". She grumbled--and soon the Rec Dept was inquiring for my id. Really? I should have just told her I married a really old guy...she probably would have left me alone!

So--enjoy your neighbors. You might have more in common than you think. I have made lots of best friends--20-40 years older than me! I enjoy their company and I think I have found home forever!!!!

Perfect!!!!!!
SO true, my neighbors love that I'm younger, especially when I'm trimming their trees and bushes!!!!!

[jimmy D]

According to the rules of the USA. There is no age restrictions because that would be discrmination. Alas all other issues are covenants or restrictions.

The people with the kids would be inviolation of restrictions and the Grandson who staying at the house would in essence be a renter or has free housing. The Renter pass is good for 2-3 years and the owner must sign away their rights. I for one would like all visitors passes to have a charge for them after 30 days.

[Bogie Shooter]

....

[asianthree]

:popcorn:sorry,,, friends coming in few weeks yep in mid forties...looking for a house...told them TV will amaze them...oh yeah if they come to stay you may be seeing them as new ortho Drs. cause i have to be honest would like to have a guy with a knife under the age of 65 to cut on me...i think i will not give them the TOTV web

[TraceyMooreRN]

:popcorn:sorry,,, friends coming in few weeks yep in mid forties...looking for a house...told them TV will amaze them...oh yeah if they come to stay you may be seeing them as new ortho Drs. cause i have to be honest would like to have a guy with a knife under the age of 65 to cut on me...i think i will not give them the TOTV web

:wave: BRING THOSE 20 PERCENTERS ON....We could actually have our own club in the parade--TOO YOUNG FOR THE BABY BOOMERS CLUB :024:

Could you see us? I mean--would everyone talk--or just a few that :police: a community that they decided 55 and older meant one thing other than the law...:angel:

[NIPAS K-9]

do not think there are many if any rule(s) that cannot be over ridden or ignored by the developer. Most rules are that they can be enforced but are not required to be enforced...not enforcing a rule is the same as ignoring it.

you got the money......... Then they got the house for you......

[Lbmb24101]

[QUOTE=billethkid;679544]the age rule does not apply to resale or rental properties.....and that's the good news!!

The 55 age does NOT apply to REsales....that explains a lot
Thanks for clarifying that part.

[asianthree]

Well on an up note last time I was there and out running at 3am... A truck circled around me three times and then stopped with head lights in my eyes asked what I was doing? Since I could not see who it was and they did not I'd themselves made me back up a little ....he asked if I was lost.. Told him no I was running and he ruined my heart rate by stopping me, then he asked and I quote....WHERE DO YOUR PARENTS LIVE...since I am 60 and think I look it not sure if he did judge age well or not but if I can pass for not looking like I belong here , yeah

[graciegirl]

:popcorn:sorry,,, friends coming in few weeks yep in mid forties...looking for a house...told them TV will amaze them...oh yeah if they come to stay you may be seeing them as new ortho Drs. cause i have to be honest would like to have a guy with a knife under the age of 65 to cut on me...i think i will not give them the TOTV web

Wonderful!!! Are they your children? You mentioned your children are physicians.

Wish we had a lovely, lovely place for younger professionals with small children or teens to live here.

You made a very good point.

I have tried so hard to explain that it is lovely living among people who have their children raised and are finished with their careers and have lived for about six decades and had a few very overwhelming things that they have met and lived through. It just is a different expectation and mindset from each decade of our lives. That doesn't mean I don't like younger people and that doesn't mean I don't get along with them.

Oh well. I am tired of explaining. We olders ARE the majority by far here and that is what counts to me. I look into their eyes and they KNOW what I am thinking. Usually.

This forum is getting so mean. I am glad that many of you know me. It hurts being called a busybody, even if I am.

Everyone is made up of the sum total of all the experiences they have had in their lives. They can't not be who they are.

[MicheleE]

Where are those 20%ers? I'm 52 and could use some friends closer to my age!

[Russ_Boston]

Where are those 20%ers? I'm 52 and could use some friends closer to my age!

Right here. Wife is 53 - me 55. Been here for two years.

[Indydealmaker]

[QUOTE=billethkid;679544]the age rule does not apply to resale or rental properties.....and that's the good news!!

The 55 age does NOT apply to REsales....that explains a lot
Thanks for clarifying that part.
The senior classification for The Villages DOES apply to resales. The federal rules apply to Occupants.

[graciegirl]

Right here. Wife is 53 - me 55. Been here for two years.

Some younger villagers are afraid of spiders.

But they have older villagers to stomp on them and protect them. ;)

We like you both to pieces.

[chuckinca]

:wave: BRING THOSE 20 PERCENTERS ON....We could actually have our own club in the parade--TOO YOUNG FOR THE BABY BOOMERS CLUB :024:

Could you see us? I mean--would everyone talk--or just a few that :police: a community that they decided 55 and older meant one thing other than the law...:angel:


I believe the youngest Baby Boomers are now in their late 40's.

.

[Mack184]

I'm going to start this by saying that I believe in the freedom to associate. I do not believe that the government has a right to tell you who you have to rent to, eat with, live with or associate with. So places where you have to be 55 or 60 or 65 before you can live there are just fine with me.

In his book Leisureville, Blechman says that communities such as TV are "unnatural" because they do not encompass and/or embrace peoples of all ages. I do disagree, and of course people who are buying and living in TV obviously disagree.

However, how many people here who support the right to establish a community where only people of a certain age can live would be very upset if a community was established based on age that excluded blacks or Jews? I'm guessing most of those people would be adamant that such a community should not exist.

So why is it perfectly OK for age-exclusion communities to exist when race or gender-based exclusions would not be acceptable?

[Bogie Shooter]

I'm going to start this by saying that I believe in the freedom to associate. I do not believe that the government has a right to tell you who you have to rent to, eat with, live with or associate with. So places where you have to be 55 or 60 or 65 before you can live there are just fine with me.

In his book Leisureville, Blechman says that communities such as TV are "unnatural" because they do not encompass and/or embrace peoples of all ages. I do disagree, and of course people who are buying and living in TV obviously disagree.

However, how many people here who support the right to establish a community where only people of a certain age can live would be very upset if a community was established based on age that excluded blacks or Jews? I'm guessing most of those people would be adamant that such a community should not exist.

So why is it perfectly OK for age-exclusion communities to exist when race or gender-based exclusions would not be acceptable?

Age exclusion communities are not totally exclusive, are they?
BTW Mr. Blechman is not an authority on anything.......................

[rubicon]

I understand the 80/20 rule, etc. However I also understand and have before moving here that enforcing this rule was going to be practically impossible and that people are very creative when they have a mind to be.
I also understood that The Villages of Lake-Sumter, Inc. only motiviation was to sell houses.

[Peachie]

[QUOTE=Mack184;680282]I'm going to start this by saying that I believe in the freedom to associate. I do not believe that the government has a right to tell you who you have to rent to, eat with, live with or associate with. So places where you have to be 55 or 60 or 65 before you can live there are just fine with me.

In his book Leisureville, Blechman says that communities such as TV are "unnatural" because they do not encompass and/or embrace peoples of all ages. I do disagree, and of course people who are buying and living in TV obviously disagree.

However, how many people here who support the right to establish a community where only people of a certain age can live would be very upset if a community was established based on age that excluded blacks or Jews? I'm guessing most of those people would be adamant that such a community should not exist.


"So why is it perfectly OK for age-exclusion communities to exist when race or gender-based exclusions would not be acceptable?"



I think I can answer your question, Mack... Everyone is going to get old if they live long enough so it's not being exclusionary and they will be able to live here. Not everyone is going to be white, black, Jewish, male, female and so forth at some point in their lifetime. Probably the most exclusionary are the enclaves with restrictions as to whom can enter the areas in which they live. The Villages is open to the public.

[graciegirl]

I understand the 80/20 rule, etc. However I also understand and have before moving here that enforcing this rule was going to be practically impossible and that people are very creative when they have a mind to be.
I also understood that The Villages of Lake-Sumter, Inc. only motiviation was to sell houses.

The American way. They are in business to make money. We have enough entities that are losing money.

Good for them. Long live free enterprise.

None of us know the owners so none of us know what their total motivation really is.
They could be Attilla the Hun or Mother Teresa. Or just folks running a business really well. REALLY well.

[OnTrack]

However, how many people here who support the right to establish a community where only people of a certain age ca live would be very upset if a community was established based on age that excluded blacks or Jews? I'm guessing most of those people would be adamant that such a community should not exist.

I wish I could share your confidence, that "most" would be against it.

Especially when it comes to excluding blacks.

Alas, my personal interaction with many residents...indicates the exact opposite. :(

.

[janmcn]

I'm going to start this by saying that I believe in the freedom to associate. I do not believe that the government has a right to tell you who you have to rent to, eat with, live with or associate with. So places where you have to be 55 or 60 or 65 before you can live there are just fine with me.

In his book Leisureville, Blechman says that communities such as TV are "unnatural" because they do not encompass and/or embrace peoples of all ages. I do disagree, and of course people who are buying and living in TV obviously disagree.

However, how many people here who support the right to establish a community where only people of a certain age can live would be very upset if a community was established based on age that excluded blacks or Jews? I'm guessing most of those people would be adamant that such a community should not exist.

So why is it perfectly OK for age-exclusion communities to exist when race or gender-based exclusions would not be acceptable?




It is perfectly OK for age-exclusion communities to exist because it is the law. President Clinton signed the Housing for Older Persons Act in 1995.

Likewise, it is against the law to establish a community that excluded blacks or Jews because of the Fair Housing Act Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968.

We are a nation of laws and both of these laws must be respected and abided by.

[mrsanborn]

I am 39, husband is 49--second home (new construction) bought this year-- First home also brand new purchased in 2007 ...do the math :024:
Moved here fulltime June 2012--prior to that--used our villa as rental.



So, you think your young age will give you the advantage when Bunco becomes a contact sport! Well listen up sister, I just polished off my third bottle of Boost and will be ready.

[Mack184]

It is perfectly OK for age-exclusion communities to exist because it is the law. President Clinton signed the Housing for Older Persons Act in 1995.

Likewise, it is against the law to establish a community that excluded blacks or Jews because of the Fair Housing Act Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968.

We are a nation of laws and both of these laws must be respected and abided by.
Not talking about "the law". I'm talking about how people view this. Over time I've seen a number of comments in different threads as to why people are "entitled" to live here without being annoyed by young children. I agree. But why is that type of exclusion/discrimination palatable, when separation by race or gender or color of hair would be unpalatable?

[njbchbum]

I wish I could share your confidence, that "most" would be against it.

Especially when it comes to excluding blacks.

Alas, my personal interaction with many residents...indicates the exact opposite. :(

.

may i suggest that you get out more and interact with a less exclusionary group of residents!?!

[Russ_Boston]

may i suggest that you get out more and interact with a less exclusionary group of residents!?!

Ditto Ditto Ditto.

OnTrack: That might be the most racist comment I've ever seen on this forum. Speak for yourself not others -Thank you!

[billethkid]

the OP was looking to "clear up" the age issue.......up to this point how could he/she/they be anything but confused when nothing more than opinions/interpretations/prdjudices abound.

These type subjects all too often thrive on a life of their own and get way too intellecualized by many.

Whatever the rules were/are or whatever.....is anybody really negatively affected if the numbers don't "balance"? Have more or less than the 80-20? Are enforced or not? I am not.

One cannot argue with the success of TV and the expected continuation of the same after build out. We have been here going on 10 years. We have watched the population more than double in that time. We have watched as national chains of all kinds of businesses set up shop here and continue to do so.

Most of us have seen nothing but appreciation of property values here.

Other than a jabber jaw (not meant to be negative...just descriptive!!!) opportunity....just exactly what is the problem??

btk

[justjim]

I am not aware of anyone being turned away from purchasing a home in TV as long as they have the economic means to do so. Having "economic means" is a relative term----how many of us could purchase in The Hamptons??? or ......well, you can see my point. We are not even close to the 20% of 30 something's in TV. However, my educated guess is most 30 something's prefer a little more "action" after nine o'clock than they could find in TV.