Harold's Vision kaput

[Warren Kiefer]

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

[Bogie Shooter]

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

I agree the rates are high, but what do you think they would be if Harold was calling the shots?

[Skip]

I agree the rates are high, but what do you think they would be if Harold was calling the shots?

"Free golf for life!"

Skip

[gomoho]

Warren - I believe that is a very astute observation. I have been in TV for less than a year and already see the rise in housing costs are pricing some folks out of the market. But this is not a non-profit organization and they will, and have every right to do so, get as many bucks for whatever the market will bear. That is a fact of life today and guess we should be glad Harold didn't hang around long enough to see it!

[ijusluvit]

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

Sorry you're upset, but let's be realistic here. Harold did have a desire to do well financially, and he knew he'd have to do well to pay for the original infrastructure, which included the golf cart bridge, Spanish Springs and the first three Villages. I don't know how he convinced himself he could stay afloat until he could really start selling houses. I don't know how he convinced contractors like Rainey to do serious work with deferred pay. I don't know how he convinced his son Gary to leave successful business dealings in Michigan and join him, bringing the rest of the family along as well. My wild guess was that everyone thought there was a good chance they would make a good profit. Yes, most of the original Villages have more modest "middle class" homes, but very soon the buying customers came wanting more. I'm convinced that Harold Swartz would have been the last person to deny people the bigger, fancier homes they said they wanted.

To this day, The Villages is still affordable to most of the retired middle class. It is more pricey than many other middle class retirement communities, but the lifestyle is superior as well. I'll bet that's why you moved here.

You're right, it's about $5 more to play primetime golf here compared to similar quality courses in the area. We benefit from that situation because the outside courses have to undersell TV courses. But I don't know ANY place in the country where you can play a Villages quality course during primetime for less than the prices in our area. Prices here have crept up regularly, but costs have as well. The bottom line is that those changes are in line with what has happened throughout the country in the last ten years. None of us like to pay a little more for the things we buy, but look what we've been able to buy!

[mulligan]

I think what you are seeing is simply a response to the market. Where a lot of the original villages south of 441 appealed to people looking for small ranches and villas, there are enough people with substantially more money that realize how great the concept is, and the developer is responding with more large designers and premiere homes.

[skyc6]

Sorry you're upset, but let's be realistic here. Harold did have a desire to do well financially, and he knew he'd have to do well to pay for the original infrastructure, which included the golf cart bridge, Spanish Springs and the first three Villages. I don't know how he convinced himself he could stay afloat until he could really start selling houses. I don't know how he convinced contractors like Rainey to do serious work with deferred pay. I don't know how he convinced his son Gary to leave successful business dealings in Michigan and join him, bringing the rest of the family along as well. My wild guess was that everyone thought there was a good chance they would make a good profit. Yes, most of the original Villages have more modest "middle class" homes, but very soon the buying customers came wanting more. I'm convinced that Harold Swartz would have been the last person to deny people the bigger, fancier homes they said they wanted.

To this day, The Villages is still affordable to most of the retired middle class. It is more pricey than many other middle class retirement communities, but the lifestyle is superior as well. I'll bet that's why you moved here.

You're right, it's about $5 more to play primetime golf here compared to similar quality courses in the area. We benefit from that situation because the outside courses have to undersell TV courses. But I don't know ANY place in the country where you can play a Villages quality course during primetime for less than the prices in our area. Prices here have crept up regularly, but costs have as well. The bottom line is that those changes are in line with what has happened throughout the country in the last ten years. None of us like to pay a little more for the things we buy, but look what we've been able to buy!

Good answer!:icon_wink:

[janmcn]

Harold Schwartz's vision was to build a hometown with everything a retiree could want in that town, and his son, Gary Morse, helped him realize that dream.

Look at the town he created where you have a town square, churches, bowling alleys, recreation centers, country clubs, golf courses, a hospital, softball fields, a woodworking shop, RV parking, several grocery stores, drug stores, furniture stores, many restaurants...just about everything you can think of.

Compare that with what the younger generation is building today which is houses and more houses, with golf, country clubs, recreation centers, and basic infrastructure and not much more.

The people that are paying the most money for houses and lots are getting the least, IMO.

[BarryRX]

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

I love this place, I truly do. But I don't believe we are getting quality golf for the price. I play a lot of golf, and play most of it right here. For most of the busy season the championship courses are collecting about $180.00 every 15 minutes, or $720 an hour. Multiply that by 10 courses and that's $7200.00 an hour. Yet, I spend most of my time hitting irons or chipping from hard pan due to the lack of grass. The greens have been in fair to poor condition. Now, all that being said, it really is supply and demand. Even with the conditions I've described, the courses are operating at max capacity. I also readily admit that my expertise does not include knowledge of the costs to run a golf course. Maybe when you have about a zillion people walking all over your golf course every day that its a miracle that they keep the courses as good as they do.

[Warren Kiefer]

I agree the rates are high, but what do you think they would be if Harold was calling the shots?

Well, I was paying $12.00 at TDS in 1997 for 18 holes. I recall Harold using the term "play golf for $1.00 per hole.

[pooh]

Well, I was paying $12.00 at TDS in 1997 for 18 holes. I recall Harold using the term "play golf for $1.00 per hole.

That was 16 years ago, Warren...alas, prices for everything have gone up quite a bit since then.

[redwitch]

Warren, I think you have some valid points. I do believe that some of the fees and practices that Mark Morse has implemented would seriously upset and anger Mr. Schwartz. There does seem to be less "bang for the buck." There is a tremendous of nickel and diming of residents, especially new residents.

Businesses have a hard time succeeding in the town squares -- the developer's rent makes it very hard for them to make a profit. More and more of the services previously offered by the developer are now being run by former employees and not for the better (think of the Squares' entertainment). For now, Brownwood has little that isn't TV-owned. LSL started with a lot of businesses jumping to be part of the grand opening.

I agree that Harold Schwartz's original vision (from what I understand it was) has gone by the wayside for the sake of profit. When I first moved here, not every club had a fee to join; classes were much cheaper; and so on and so forth.

I've talked to residents who moved here when Mr. Schwartz was still alive and wandering around Orange Blossom and Silver Springs. I've spoken with others who moved here shortly after he died. If something happened that they couldn't close in time, TV would extend closing date; the interest rates weren't .25% higher than surrounding banks; Neighborhood Watch would check your home for you free if you went out of town; and so on and so forth. It really does sound a different attitude has taken over.

I do believe that Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit (heck, he'd gone bankrupt twice trying to do this) and I'm positive that Gary Morse would never have moved here had he not thought a reasonable profit could be made. But I'm not convinced that this level of profit-making (or the means used to get there) was ever considered by either of them.

[Warren Kiefer]

Sorry you're upset, but let's be realistic here. Harold did have a desire to do well financially, and he knew he'd have to do well to pay for the original infrastructure, which included the golf cart bridge, Spanish Springs and the first three Villages. I don't know how he convinced himself he could stay afloat until he could really start selling houses. I don't know how he convinced contractors like Rainey to do serious work with deferred pay. I don't know how he convinced his son Gary to leave successful business dealings in Michigan and join him, bringing the rest of the family along as well. My wild guess was that everyone thought there was a good chance they would make a good profit. Yes, most of the original Villages have more modest "middle class" homes, but very soon the buying customers came wanting more. I'm convinced that Harold Swartz would have been the last person to deny people the bigger, fancier homes they said they wanted.

To this day, The Villages is still affordable to most of the retired middle class. It is more pricey than many other middle class retirement communities, but the lifestyle is superior as well. I'll bet that's why you moved here.

You're right, it's about $5 more to play primetime golf here compared to similar quality courses in the area. We benefit from that situation because the outside courses have to undersell TV courses. But I don't know ANY place in the country where you can play a Villages quality course during primetime for less than the prices in our area. Prices here have crept up regularly, but costs have as well. The bottom line is that those changes are in line with what has happened throughout the country in the last ten years. None of us like to pay a little more for the things we buy, but look what we've been able to buy!

Needing to Undersell the Villages isn't valid unless you only use examples near the Villages. My research was mainly within a 25 mile radius, but you will find courses all the way to Sebring that cost less than the Villages and these courses certainly do not compete with the Villages courses. Also by using the CDD regulations, the Developer was able to build most of the infastructure without using his funds. This is where the seling of bonds came into play. I also remember Harold Schwartz saying that the Villages would be like a big family. I wish some of my family members would treat me a little better.

ijustluvit, you write a well thought thru post and and I appreciate and respect those thoughts. I am going to guess that you are a very nice person.

[Bogie Shooter]

Well, I was paying $12.00 at TDS in 1997 for 18 holes. I recall Harold using the term "play golf for $1.00 per hole.

Golf for $1 hole, bread for $.40 a loaf. Sorry everything has gone up. I doubt the courses could be maintained with revenue of $12 a round.
The horse and buggy were put away in the barn a long time ago!

[njbchbum]

warren - how much do you think you should be paying? and do you think that amount paid by you and all of the other golfers would be sufficient to support the maintenance and management of the golf course and pro shop year round as well as provide a reasonable profit to the developer? or maybe you don't care about that...hard to tell.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

Golf for $1 hole, bread for $.40 a loaf. Sorry everything has gone up. I doubt the courses could be maintained with revenue of $12 a round.
The horse and buggy were put away in the barn a long time ago!

Agreed wholeheartedly
:agree:

[dianeandcarl]

so what it is about human nature that some people always need something to complain about?

[mgjim]

If Warren (or anyone else for that matter) was paying $1.00 per hole at Tierra del Sol in 1997, he should be paying $1.45 per hole today based on the rate of inflation since then. For 18 holes, he should be paying $26.10 for 18 holes at Tierra del Sol in January 2013 and probably something like $26.50 in January 2014.

Based on the prices announced for winter 2013/2014, a resident member will pay $48.00 for 18 holes at Tierra del Sol. A priority member will be paying $33.00 for 18.

While it's true that everything costs more today than it did in 1997, that's a pretty significant increase.

On the other hand, the price of gasoline has risen by 280% in Florida since January 1997. So $1.00 of gas in 1997 costs $2.80 in January 2013. If one applied the gasoline inflation rate to golf, 18 holes at Tierra del Sol would now cost $50.40 - slightly more than the expected cost in the winter of 2013/2014.

If we applied the gasoline inflation rate to everything, none of us could afford to live in The Villages or pretty much anywhere else if we're living on a fixed income.

Warren is definitely on to something.

[pooh]

Personally, I don't agree......there are many other factors that contribute to increased costs....gasoline prices, equipment purchases, repairs, increased cost of irrigation, increased salaries, taxes, insurance, workman' comp., etc. There are many more courses than when Harold was around, much more use of the courses, more time needed to care for and maintain courses and so on and so on.

We all may feel the pinch these days, everything costs more than it did years ago. Years ago we were still complaining that prices were higher than in previous times.....probably going to be a song we'll all be singing, just as those who came before us did...;). It's frustrating....less bang for your buck.....just look at what groceries cost....it's not just recreation costs and it's not just here.

[Warren Kiefer]

That was 16 years ago, Warren...alas, prices for everything have gone up quite a bit since then.

Surely you realize the golf courses serve a single purpose and that purpose was to sell homes. It was true 16 years ago and is true today. I cannot think of many things that have quadrupled in price in 16 years. OK maybe gasoline, but that is like apples and oranges.

[golf4me]

Warren, I think you have some valid points. I do believe that some of the fees and practices that Mark Morse has implemented would seriously upset and anger Mr. Schwartz. There does seem to be less "bang for the buck." There is a tremendous of nickel and diming of residents, especially new residents.

Businesses have a hard time succeeding in the town squares -- the developer's rent makes it very hard for them to make a profit. More and more of the services previously offered by the developer are now being run by former employees and not for the better (think of the Squares' entertainment). For now, Brownwood has little that isn't TV-owned. LSL started with a lot of businesses jumping to be part of the grand opening.

I agree that Harold Schwartz's original vision (from what I understand it was) has gone by the wayside for the sake of profit. When I first moved here, not every club had a fee to join; classes were much cheaper; and so on and so forth.

I've talked to residents who moved here when Mr. Schwartz was still alive and wandering around Orange Blossom and Silver Springs. I've spoken with others who moved here shortly after he died. If something happened that they couldn't close in time, TV would extend closing date; the interest rates weren't .25% higher than surrounding banks; Neighborhood Watch would check your home for you free if you went out of town; and so on and so forth. It really does sound a different attitude has taken over.

I do believe that Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit (heck, he'd gone bankrupt twice trying to do this) and I'm positive that Gary Morse would never have moved here had he not thought a reasonable profit could be made. But I'm not convinced that this level of profit-making (or the means used to get there) was ever considered by either of them.

No one forces any business to rent at the squares. NO ONE. If they fail it is because they are not selling something someone wants or enough of it to meet expenses. PERIOD. NO one is forced to use the banks. AND they aren't National Banks, They are only HERE. They have so many closings that knowing people who don't care they would be switching closings all of the time IF there wasn't a penalty for doing so. No one in this country has as many closings as The Villages does right now.

I think what is called greed by some is just common every day business practice and if you have not worked in that environment, if you have spent your life in government work or in education than it is unfamiliar. There are many of us who have worked in situations where financial goals are set and sales managers manage. That is called business and free enterprise. If our government would follow some of the practices used here we wouldn't have some of the trouble we are having.

AND YES Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit. You pay your workers and your expenses and buy equipment and feed your own family with the profit. AND if you do it well you make a BIG profit and that employs more people and buys more equipment and opens more places to eat and keeps the economy running.

:popcorn:

[ROCKETMAN]

I love this place, I truly do. But I don't believe we are getting quality golf for the price. I play a lot of golf, and play most of it right here. For most of the busy season the championship courses are collecting about $180.00 every 15 minutes, or $720 an hour. Multiply that by 10 courses and that's $7200.00 an hour. Yet, I spend most of my time hitting irons or chipping from hard pan due to the lack of grass. The greens have been in fair to poor condition. Now, all that being said, it really is supply and demand. Even with the conditions I've described, the courses are operating at max capacity. I also readily admit that my expertise does not include knowledge of the costs to run a golf course. Maybe when you have about a zillion people walking all over your golf course every day that its a miracle that they keep the courses as good as they do.

When i read your post it sounded word for word what i have always thought. It comes down to supply and demand. I have priority because my wife golfs also and when i do the numbers i break even plus get a better chance in the high season of getting my desired time and course and go to the pools once in a while. As for course conditions in the last few weeks golfed celebration in disney and dell webb. Courses were green with nice grass in rough and fairways. Both places talked to employees who used to work in the villages. They need to water more to get better conditions was their answer. I know sometimes we have restrictions but we don't right now. Also they could punp more from some of the ponds but like the one on baily trail by cane carden, they want that one to look nice for the people driving by. All of this said i can jump in my golf cart during the summer, play at arnold palmer for 6 bucks at twilight and get a 6 dollar burger and fries.:MOJE_whot:

[Mikeod]

Surely you realize the golf courses serve a single purpose and that purpose was to sell homes. It was true 16 years ago and is true today. I cannot think of many things that have quadrupled in price in 16 years. OK maybe gasoline, but that is like apples and oranges.

Perhaps the explanation lies in the fact that a decision was made several years ago that the championship courses (which are privately owned, by the way) had to be self-sufficient. This implies that they, and the greens fees they charged, were in some way subsidized by the developer as a means to attract buyers for the homes. Once that decision was made, all the costs had to be covered by the fees charged. So, maintenance, insurance, administrative costs, repairs to the clubhouse and restaurant, taxes, range balls, golf carts, salaries, etc. had to be included in determining a greens fee that would cover expenses and make a profit.

I've spoken to people who travel off campus during the high season to take advantage of lower fees. But, when adding the price of gas for the trip, the time spent getting there and back, and using a rental cart that doesn't have the amenities their own cart offers, are they really saving much? So, I think that in some ways we pay for the convenience of having the courses golf cart accessible in our community.

I'm not insensitive to those that moved here with a retirement income that was sufficient at the time but is far less so now. Back in CA we passes Prop 13 in part because people were losing their homes because property taxes were eating up most of their retirement income. Here we've seen growth accompanied by younger retirees with substantial funds at their disposal so the costs of recreation are not a deterrent. And we have vacationers who want to have a good time without too much regard for the cost. I think if the golf fees were too far out of line, play would drop and the powers that be would have to re-evaluate the fee structure. Or would they then just sell the courses to an operator who could make them completely public??? Be careful what you wish for.

[pooh]

It doesn't have to be one thing, Warren, it's the total of "things" that result in increases. Whether you agree or not, everything costs more today than it did when this community was built. Think about the increases you've seen in your own personal expenses. Why doesn't the water or power company just absorb the additional costs of operations so we, the consumers, don't have to suffer an increase in costs?

Golf was an attraction initially and still is a game for many, but today's retiree is younger, more active and wants to stay busy and fit. There are many other activities besides golf here that attract people to TV.

[billethkid]

the urban legend that TV rents for commercial establishments is the reason businesses have a hard time being profitable.

Each of the businesses that have signed a lease with TV knew and understood what the rent would be for thier contracted 5 or 10 year lease. When they signed they knew, or should have known what it takes to make a profit.

Most that have failed or moved on was not due to the rent. It was due to the fact they over estimated what they thought they could sell. Or they did not provide the elements of the business magic formula...value, service, quality, response, a product or service TV needs/wants.

When they do fail or close down, it is much easier for the owner to blame it on the rent....than to give the real reasons for not making their vision happen.

The rents TV charges for commercial space is very competitive with most high value shopping areas and retail centers.

The other variable that many are not prepared to deal with is....owning and operating is hard work and long hours.

The above is slightly off topic but related.

We can all talk about the past like a 4 bedroom Georgian colonial two story on a half acre lot .....2700 square feet...two car garage...corian counters...etc....$49,000.....new built....early 1970. That house just sold last year for over $300,000.

TV is simply following (I should say leading) the market and dealing with supply and demand. Do some of you remember when TV could not build enough fast enough? Around 2005/6 when houses were sold lottery style? When one like you wanted came available you got a call and they gave you 72 hours to "take it or leave it"? Those days are coming back.

There is no surprise in the increasing values here in TV....none at all.
There is no surprise in the increasing cost of goods going up....it has been going on all our lives.
There are no disappointed new buyers at what ever the price was yesterday.

Those who are disappointed are the ones who lament how it used to be...like my $49,000 Georgian Colonial!!!

TV will continue to grow and prosper at what ever the market will bear!

btk

[villagerjack]

The longer we live, the more expensive everything looks. The reality is that preparation for retirement is very important. I remember when my cabe bill was $12.00 a month for no commercials TV. I am on NY and just paid $40.00 for nine holes for a course not near as nice as my free exec courses. I pay $82.00 for 18 on another Town Course.

[villagerjack]

the urban legend that TV rents for commercial establishments is the reason businesses have a hard time being profitable.

Each of the businesses that have signed a lease with TV knew and understood what the rent would be for thier contracted 5 or 10 year lease. When they signed they knew, or should have known what it takes to make a profit.

Most that have failed or moved on was not due to the rent. It was due to the fact they over estimated what they thought they could sell. Or they did not provide the elements of the business magic formula...value, service, quality, response, a product or service TV needs/wants.

When they do fail or close down, it is much easier for the owner to blame it on the rent....than to give the real reasons for not making their vision happen.

The rents TV charges for commercial space is very competitive with most high value shopping areas and retail centers.

The other variable that many are not prepared to deal with is....owning and operating is hard work and long hours.

The above is slightly off topic but related.

We can all talk about the past like a 4 bedroom Georgian colonial two story on a half acre lot .....2700 square feet...two car garage...corian counters...etc....$49,000.....new built....early 1970. That house just sold last year for over $300,000.

TV is simply following (I should say leading) the market and dealing with supply and demand. Do some of you remember when TV could not build enough fast enough? Around 2005/6 when houses were sold lottery style? When one like you wanted came available you got a call and they gave you 72 hours to "take it or leave it"? Those days are coming back.

There is no surprise in the increasing values here in TV....none at all.
There is no surprise in the increasing cost of goods going up....it has been going on all our lives.
There are no disappointed new buyers at what ever the price was yesterday.

Those who are disappointed are the ones who lament how it used to be...like my $49,000 Georgian Colonial!!!

TV will continue to grow and prosper at what ever the market will bear!

btk

Agree...well said.

[dillywho]

No one forces any business to rent at the squares. NO ONE. If they fail it is because they are not selling something someone wants or enough of it to meet expenses. PERIOD. NO one is forced to use the banks. AND they aren't National Banks, They are only HERE. They have so many closings that knowing people who don't care they would be switching closings all of the time IF there wasn't a penalty for doing so. No one in this country has as many closings as The Villages does right now.

I think what is called greed by some is just common every day business practice and if you have not worked in that environment, if you have spent your life in government work or in education than it is unfamiliar. There are many of us who have worked in situations where financial goals are set and sales managers manage. That is called business and free enterprise. If our government would follow some of the practices used here we wouldn't have some of the trouble we are having.

AND YES Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit. You pay your workers and your expenses and buy equipment and feed your own family with the profit. AND if you do it well you make a BIG profit and that employs more people and buys more equipment and opens more places to eat and keeps the economy running.

:popcorn:

Well said!!!:bigbow:

[Thnonne]

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

[duffysmom]

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

:bigbow:

[buggyone]

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

Perfectly stated!!

Where else can you do all of those things with no fee AND live in such a beautiful place?:MOJE_whot::a040::clap2:

[Challenger]

Simple
If the margin of profit is too low, the investor(owner) seeks a better investment. Look how often restaurants close or go through an endless chain of owners. When the investment provides a return comenserate with the risk incured,
the result is usually stable and quality ownership.I think the process is called capitalism *The American Way*. On this Memorial week end I hope we can all pause to give thanks to all who have paid with their bodies, minds, and lives to preserve our basic pricciples.

[Topspinmo]

Getting back to the original question. Golf is rich mans sport. Everything about golf costs. Really not that demanding game when if comes to athletics. Sure if you got time to practice hours day you will eventually become good if you have any skills at all. But for the average duffer if social rich mans/ladies event which shooting 95 would be great score (if ALL the strokes was counted). I know I going to here golf requires a lot of skill! Yes it does at the Pro level which is .5% of golfers. Let's face it's rich mans sport sponsored by the 1%'ers for the 10%'ers.. Want to play? Then, expect to pay out the yang for Cloths, shoes, clubs, balls, Fees, and lunch...basically 250 dollar day unless you playing at the local cow pasture. Villager's enjoy excellent golf for the price, Don't expect to get off cheap at the Premiere Courses cause they were built for the rich not the retired iron or coal mine workers (blue collar types). :blahblahblah::popcorn:

Ladies don't get mad cause I left you out. GOLF has not me.... hence LPGA are rare event on TV anymore. My guess is all the money on the men's tournaments. IMO women have better stokes now matter what the game. Golf, tennis, billiards, smooth and clean striking.:blahblahblah::popcorn:

[mickey100]

.. Want to play? Then, expect to pay out the yang for Cloths, shoes, clubs, balls, Fees, and lunch...basically 250 dollar day unless you're playing at the local cow pasture. ...:

Unfortunately, some of our courses are close to being the local cow pasture. For what we pay, they are not consistently in very good shape, IMHO. There are a lot of reasons for that, lack of rain, high amount of players, questionable maintenance, questionable course construction when built, but at any given time, there seem to be 3 or 4 decent courses, while the rest of them are no great shakes. And we do pay more to play on our courses than neighboring communities do, and we provide our own golf carts to boot.

[Warren Kiefer]

Warren, I think you have some valid points. I do believe that some of the fees and practices that Mark Morse has implemented would seriously upset and anger Mr. Schwartz. There does seem to be less "bang for the buck." There is a tremendous of nickel and diming of residents, especially new residents.

Businesses have a hard time succeeding in the town squares -- the developer's rent makes it very hard for them to make a profit. More and more of the services previously offered by the developer are now being run by former employees and not for the better (think of the Squares' entertainment). For now, Brownwood has little that isn't TV-owned. LSL started with a lot of businesses jumping to be part of the grand opening.

I agree that Harold Schwartz's original vision (from what I understand it was) has gone by the wayside for the sake of profit. When I first moved here, not every club had a fee to join; classes were much cheaper; and so on and so forth.

I've talked to residents who moved here when Mr. Schwartz was still alive and wandering around Orange Blossom and Silver Springs. I've spoken with others who moved here shortly after he died. If something happened that they couldn't close in time, TV would extend closing date; the interest rates weren't .25% higher than surrounding banks; Neighborhood Watch would check your home for you free if you went out of town; and so on and so forth. It really does sound a different attitude has taken over.

I do believe that Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit (heck, he'd gone bankrupt twice trying to do this) and I'm positive that Gary Morse would never have moved here had he not thought a reasonable profit could be made. But I'm not convinced that this level of profit-making (or the means used to get there) was ever considered by either of them.

In my opinion you are 100% correct. Someone remarked the other day if the Developer ever does anything that is not geared to result in income. I was not aware of a single thing. In fact, if one remembers the Phillips scramble it should bring back some good memories. Larry Phillips put a lot of his own money into this tournament and consequently a lot of money was generated for various charities. Well, as Mr. Phillips tells it, the Developer wanted a piece of the action----- this resulted in Mr. Phillips ending his relationship with the tournament. The Villages in their wise judgement then decided to do the tournament themselves, The golf division really bombed and created a mess that only lasted a few years. Then there was the Relay for Life charity event. This was conducted for several years at the high school facility. Again the Developer got involved and wanted some control of the donated moneys. The Relay for Life by laws forbid this, so then the Developer refused the use of the high school facility. Final outcome; Relay of Life was conducted in the parking lot of a large Urology Clinic. Thanks again redwitch for your posting.

[Mack184]

I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents.
WOW..You need to wake up from your pipe dream. NOBODY unless they are an idiot or are running a hobby goes into business without the intent of making a profit. Google Harold Schwartz and read about him. He was a lifetime salesman..and a DAMN good one. Sales people are motivated by one thing and one thing only...CASH. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy, but if you believe that this guy was just doing something out of the goodness of his heart you are quite sadly mistaken. Profit was ALWAYS the motive and it still is and there is NOTHING wrong with that. So if you don't want to play on the free courses, just cough up your money and get on with it.

[Warren Kiefer]

Golf for $1 hole, bread for $.40 a loaf. Sorry everything has gone up. I doubt the courses could be maintained with revenue of $12 a round.
The horse and buggy were put away in the barn a long time ago!

You are missing my point. I have no objection to reasonable increases in products or services. That is the way the world works. There is not a golf course in Florida that generates more golfing activity than the Villages courses. More activity generates more income. So is the Villages golf courses generate the most income, why are they the most expensive ?? The Villages certainly cannot claim their fees are justified because the Villages courses are the finest around. The Amish would not agree that your quote means anything.

[Warren Kiefer]

warren - how much do you think you should be paying? and do you think that amount paid by you and all of the other golfers would be sufficient to support the maintenance and management of the golf course and pro shop year round as well as provide a reasonable profit to the developer? or maybe you don't care about that...hard to tell.

Again I must respond. If your arguement has any validity at all, every privately golf course within 50 miles would have gone bankrupt years ago. Stonecrest, Eagle Ridge, Dell Webb, Colonial, The Oaks, Ocala, Mount Dora, and Summer Glenn are still alive and operating. You would surely agree that the amount of play on these courses is far less than the Villages courses. And finally, I play these courses and they are usually in very nice condition.

[Warren Kiefer]

It doesn't have to be one thing, Warren, it's the total of "things" that result in increases. Whether you agree or not, everything costs more today than it did when this community was built. Think about the increases you've seen in your own personal expenses. Why doesn't the water or power company just absorb the additional costs of operations so we, the consumers, don't have to suffer an increase in costs?

Golf was an attraction initially and still is a game for many, but today's retiree is younger, more active and wants to stay busy and fit. There are many other activities besides golf here that attract people to TV.

My original posting was a simple statement. WHY IS GOLF MORE EXPENSIVE FOR RESIDENTS HERE IN THE VILLAGES THAN IS IS FOR THEM TO PLAY NEARLY EVERY OUTSIDE COURSE WITHIN 50 MILES???????

[Warren Kiefer]

so what it is about human nature that some people always need something to complain about?

Are you complaining about people complaining.

[Warren Kiefer]

Perhaps the explanation lies in the fact that a decision was made several years ago that the championship courses (which are privately owned, by the way) had to be self-sufficient. This implies that they, and the greens fees they charged, were in some way subsidized by the developer as a means to attract buyers for the homes. Once that decision was made, all the costs had to be covered by the fees charged. So, maintenance, insurance, administrative costs, repairs to the clubhouse and restaurant, taxes, range balls, golf carts, salaries, etc. had to be included in determining a greens fee that would cover expenses and make a profit.

I've spoken to people who travel off campus during the high season to take advantage of lower fees. But, when adding the price of gas for the trip, the time spent getting there and back, and using a rental cart that doesn't have the amenities their own cart offers, are they really saving much? So, I think that in some ways we pay for the convenience of having the courses golf cart accessible in our community.

I'm not insensitive to those that moved here with a retirement income that was sufficient at the time but is far less so now. Back in CA we passes Prop 13 in part because people were losing their homes because property taxes were eating up most of their retirement income. Here we've seen growth accompanied by younger retirees with substantial funds at their disposal so the costs of recreation are not a deterrent. And we have vacationers who want to have a good time without too much regard for the cost. I think if the golf fees were too far out of line, play would drop and the powers that be would have to re-evaluate the fee structure. Or would they then just sell the courses to an operator who could make them completely public??? Be careful what you wish for.

Every outside course I used as an example of having lower greens fees than the Villages ARE PRIVATELY OWNED. The Villages championship courses are just as much public as most local courses. You must know our courses are completely public and anyone can play them.

[Warren Kiefer]

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

My orginal post was about the Championship greens fees. Nary a word about pickle ball, swimming pools or town squares. And your idea of there not being a fee, Check out a fee called amenity fee that you pay and while your doing that check your tax bill for an item called "special assessment"... Oh yes, how about that trail fee for driving your cart on the executive courses.

[Warren Kiefer]

WOW..You need to wake up from your pipe dream. NOBODY unless they are an idiot or are running a hobby goes into business without the intent of making a profit. Google Harold Schwartz and read about him. He was a lifetime salesman..and a DAMN good one. Sales people are motivated by one thing and one thing only...CASH. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy, but if you believe that this guy was just doing something out of the goodness of his heart you are quite sadly mistaken. Profit was ALWAYS the motive and it still is and there is NOTHING wrong with that. So if you don't want to play on the free courses, just cough up your money and get on with it.

I can tell you never personally knew Mr. Schwartz. I was speaking about personal wealth. Extreme personal eealth was not what drove Mr. Schwartz. It was more his love of other people. He was the only member of his family that continued to reside in his orginal compound home. He could have lived a very regal life but chose to not do so.

[Mikeod]

Every outside course I used as an example of having lower greens fees than the Villages ARE PRIVATELY OWNED. The Villages championship courses are just as much public as most local courses. You must know our courses are completely public and anyone can play them.

So are Pebble Beach and TPC Sawgrass. I have the opportunity to play them, just not the desire to spend that amount of money on a round of golf. The fees for non-residents/non-guests at TV courses are set much higher than the surrounding courses to discourage outside play. To me, they are public in name only.

Warren, I can see your frustration that the cost of golf has risen more than you can accept. But you have to admit that saying Harold's vision for TV is kaput is just a bit of hyperbole.

[pooh]

My original posting was a simple statement. WHY IS GOLF MORE EXPENSIVE FOR RESIDENTS HERE IN THE VILLAGES THAN IS IS FOR THEM TO PLAY NEARLY EVERY OUTSIDE COURSE WITHIN 50 MILES???????

So we can hear from you, Warren.....:).

Why are other courses cheaper, I have no clue...I don't have information on costs of running the other courses you speak of. I don't know how much play those courses have....more or less than TV? How many holes on those courses....18, 27? Course hours? What are the costs for water? Water allocation around this area seems to vary from course to course? How many workers? Cost of having those employees? Not sure if we are able to compare everything, Warren....since most of us are not privy to the business expenses for each course.
Some courses charge more for individual play, not just here. It is what it is, we honestly don't know why. A suggestion for anyone who is unhappy with the fees charged....don't play the courses. I don't mean this as a defensive or argumentative statement. If we are unhappy about something, we don't have to use it. If we want more definitive answers, more informative than we might find on a message board, seek out that information from appropriate sources.

[rubicon]

My orginal post was about the Championship greens fees. Nary a word about pickle ball, swimming pools or town squares. And your idea of there not being a fee, Check out a fee called amenity fee that you pay and while your doing that check your tax bill for an item called "special assessment"... Oh yes, how about that trail fee for driving your cart on the executive courses.

Warren: Your spot on. The Villages experienced in every way provides the Developer direct income or a piece of the action building, stores, schools, wutilities, health system, insurance etc., etc, etc . The Villages s a whole can be viewed as a cash cow. I have said that from day one. Fees, Taxes special Assessment will continue to climb. This entire venture was leveraged utililizing residents money. You are not going to convince some folks here. These same folks lead the village politically correct squad and they will accuse you of complaining.

The golf courses here get heavy use. I pl�yed a championship with two new residents and there response for offseason rates was �t these prices I am use to thick fairway, an attendant getting my cart and placing my club on it..... and we are using our own carts.The priority system places guests ahead of residents who made a heavy investment in this community but it has its obvious purpose. After 6 years i concluded that for me it was not paying of..

Most of my neighbors play off campus refusing to pay The Villages prices. We do better off campus that includes a golf cart and at some courses meals included.

If you see who our county commissioners are you will notice some with vry close ties to The Developer. This same situation exist at the Water utility and others areas required to mantain sway over the county.

I understand that its business and I understand that good business people are aggressive. But these same folks who just shrug their shoulders when you address such issues as this are the first to yell when they find for example that a Verizon or ATT&T slip in a $.90 admin fees to quietly increase their profits.

[golf2140]

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

[mickey100]

Some complaints are legitimate. Only foolish people think everything is perfect all of the time.

[justjim]

Why is golf here more expensive than other area courses? Warren, that is aa legitimate question worth discussion. My short answer is that old' saying "why did you do that"---Answer: "because I could"!!! At the present time, there is no shortage of golfers on The TV Championship courses so one can conclude the green fees are about right according to the law of supply and demand. Could that change? Sure. I recently built south of 466A (our third TV house) and my neighborhood is filled with younger resident golfers. After build out and as the community average age rises, IMHO this could change. Another old saying: "You make hay while the sun shines". Which means if you have the opportunity to do something, do it before the opportunity expires.

[ilovetv]

Don't take this personally because I'm not criticizing. It seems to me that the o.p. and others want true "country-club" access to play unlimited golf on a course that has true "country-club" conditions.....without paying an initiation/stock entrance fee of $20,000 to $40,000, and without paying annual dues of $4,000 to $7,000, and without paying minimum spending of $350/quarter, and without assessments for long-term capital improvement projects....but WITH only paying dues of $30 or so for 18 holes including a cart.

Our experience as country club members in other states for decades, and as club committee members who saw the finances close up, is that you can't have it both ways. The championship courses here are public courses and do NOT have the revenues private country clubs get in dues, cart fees, initiation fees, minimum spending, food and beverage spending, banquet business, and special assessments.

[REDCART]

TV is simply following (I should say leading) the market and dealing with supply and demand. Do some of you remember when TV could not build enough fast enough? Around 2005/6 when houses were sold lottery style? When one like you wanted came available you got a call and they gave you 72 hours to "take it or leave it"? Those days are coming back. btk

Excellent argument but my recollection from Nov 2005 is that we had 4 hours not 72 hours to make a decision. Sounds incredible but that's what it was at that time.

[rubicon]

Why is golf here more expensive than other area courses? Warren, that is aa legitimate question worth discussion. My short answer is that old' saying "why did you do that"---Answer: "because I could"!!! At the present time, there is no shortage of golfers on The TV Championship courses so one can conclude the green fees are about right according to the law of supply and demand. Could that change? Sure. I recently built south of 466A (our third TV house) and my neighborhood is filled with younger resident golfers. After build out and as the community average age rises, IMHO this could change. Another old saying: "You make hay while the sun shines". Which means if you have the opportunity to do something, do it before the opportunity expires.

"my neighborhood is filled with younger resident golfers". What does this mean?

[Warren Kiefer]

Warren: Your spot on. The Villages experienced in every way provides the Developer direct income or a piece of the action building, stores, schools, wutilities, health system, insurance etc., etc, etc . The Villages s a whole can be viewed as a cash cow. I have said that from day one. Fees, Taxes special Assessment will continue to climb. This entire venture was leveraged utililizing residents money. You are not going to convince some folks here. These same folks lead the village politically correct squad and they will accuse you of complaining.

The golf courses here get heavy use. I pl�yed a championship with two new residents and there response for offseason rates was �t these prices I am use to thick fairway, an attendant getting my cart and placing my club on it..... and we are using our own carts.The priority system places guests ahead of residents who made a heavy investment in this community but it has its obvious purpose. After 6 years i concluded that for me it was not paying of..

Most of my neighbors play off campus refusing to pay The Villages prices. We do better off campus that includes a golf cart and at some courses meals included.

If you see who our county commissioners are you will notice some with vry close ties to The Developer. This same situation exist at the Water utility and others areas required to mantain sway over the county.

I understand that its business and I understand that good business people are aggressive. But these same folks who just shrug their shoulders when you address such issues as this are the first to yell when they find for example that a Verizon or ATT&T slip in a $.90 admin fees to quietly increase their profits.

Of course, I think I am right and a big thank you for showing me some support. Will my postings change anything, not likely but that doesn't make my statements any less true. My neighborhood like yours used to be nearly all priority golfers. Today, my neighborhood is more likely to be less than 25 percent priority. Thanks again rubicon. it's you and me brother !!!!!

[Warren Kiefer]

Why is golf here more expensive than other area courses? Warren, that is aa legitimate question worth discussion. My short answer is that old' saying "why did you do that"---Answer: "because I could"!!! At the present time, there is no shortage of golfers on The TV Championship courses so one can conclude the green fees are about right according to the law of supply and demand. Could that change? Sure. I recently built south of 466A (our third TV house) and my neighborhood is filled with younger resident golfers. After build out and as the community average age rises, IMHO this could change. Another old saying: "You make hay while the sun shines". Which means if you have the opportunity to do something, do it before the opportunity expires.

I agree with you 100%!!!!!!!

[Warren Kiefer]

Don't take this personally because I'm not criticizing. It seems to me that the o.p. and others want true "country-club" access to play unlimited golf on a course that has true "country-club" conditions.....without paying an initiation/stock entrance fee of $20,000 to $40,000, and without paying annual dues of $4,000 to $7,000, and without paying minimum spending of $350/quarter, and without assessments for long-term capital improvement projects....but WITH only paying dues of $30 or so for 18 holes including a cart.

Our experience as country club members in other states for decades, and as club committee members who saw the finances close up, is that you can't have it both ways. The championship courses here are public courses and do NOT have the revenues private country clubs get in dues, cart fees, initiation fees, minimum spending, food and beverage spending, banquet business, and special assessments.

You must have missed part of my orginal posting. I was and am aware that in other locations, initation fees etc are the norm. But not in this area. I addressed this issue in my first posting. First, you really don't have unlimited play in the Villages, everyone I know has had play requests denied because of accumulated play points. Secondly, I am unaware of any course in our area that has those Country Club conditions you described. I am aware of one community that requires a minimum restaurant payment monthly. I am also aware that many communities such as Top of The World and Eagle Ridge that has a yearly fee that provides for unlimited play. The yearly cost at both of these clubs is less than what one will incur for golf in the Villages over a year period.
I do appreciate your comments. good golfing to you.

[ilovetv]

You must have missed part of my orginal posting. I was and am aware that in other locations, initation fees etc are the norm. But not in this area. I addressed this issue in my first posting. First, you really don't have unlimited play in the Villages, everyone I know has had play requests denied because of accumulated play points. Secondly, I am unaware of any course in our area that has those Country Club conditions you described. I am aware of one community that requires a minimum restaurant payment monthly. I am also aware that many communities such as Top of The World and Eagle Ridge that has a yearly fee that provides for unlimited play. The yearly cost at both of these clubs is less than what one will incur for golf in the Villages over a year period.
I do appreciate your comments. good golfing to you.

And everyone I've spoken with who's looked at Top of the World said "NO WAY. Compared to TV it's a total dud." And that refers to the overall living experience possible, not just golf.

Personally I don't think the majority of people here in TV chose it because of golf. I think most chose it because of overall quality of life as a young-at-heart person who wants to be active in a variety of ways, not just in golf.

[buggyone]

[QUOTE=Warren Kiefer;681902]You must have missed part of my orginal posting. I was and am aware that in other locations, initation fees etc are the norm. But not in this area. I addressed this issue in my first posting. First, you really don't have unlimited play in the Villages, everyone I know has had play requests denied because of accumulated play points. Secondly, I am unaware of any course in our area that has those Country Club conditions you described. I am aware of one community that requires a minimum restaurant payment monthly. I am also aware that many communities such as Top of The World and Eagle Ridge that has a yearly fee that provides for unlimited play. The yearly cost at both of these clubs is less than what one will incur for golf in the Villages over a year period.


I am sure that Eagle Ridge or Top of the World would be glad to sell you a very nice home. You would probably make a very nice profit on your Villages house, too. Happy golfing wherever you end up.

[Warren Kiefer]

And everyone I've spoken with who's looked at Top of the World said "NO WAY. Compared to TV it's a total dud." And that refers to the overall living experience possible, not just golf.

Personally I don't think the majority of people here in TV chose it because of golf. I think most chose it because of overall quality of life as a young-at-heart person who wants to be active in a variety of ways, not just in golf.

My posting was about the cost of golf in the Villages. I am personally of the opinion that golf does play a big part in why people move here. Anyway, we need to keep to the subject. That is; Why are golfing fees in the Villages higher than nearly every outside course. My posting has nothing to do with the Village's lifestyle or the lifestyle in any adjacent communities. Every community that I have visited has it's positive points. For example, The sheer beauty Harbor Hills far surpasses anything we have in the Villages (good asset), but having to drive several miles for groceries etc are minuses.

[billethkid]

Golf had no impact on our decision to build in TV. It would be interesting to find out how many others as well.
Yes we play. We used to be priority but now just play executive.

simple supply and demand!!!! Keep in mind around 5000 new residents per year added to the population. The priority courses will soon be finite. So there will always be an increasing demand for priority.

The othe factor is a certain percentage of residents aging to the point where playing 9 is more enjoyable than 18, hence a number of priority members will fall out each year.

Othe than flat panel television sets, what else ever goes down in price?

Look at Disney just raising thir prices again this year to $95. I remember when it was $25!!! and grandparents used to get in for free. Then it went to 50% of the gate fee. And now it is the standard gate fee of $95.

As long as materials go up in price every year....and as long as workers expect a raise evry year....it is nothing but simple math....prices will go up every year to offset those increasing costs....and the increasing population will pay the price....simple supply and demand.....

btk

[Warren Kiefer]

Golf had no impact on our decision to build in TV. It would be interesting to find out how many others as well.
Yes we play. We used to be priority but now just play executive.

simple supply and demand!!!! Keep in mind around 5000 new residents per year added to the population. The priority courses will soon be finite. So there will always be an increasing demand for priority.

The othe factor is a certain percentage of residents aging to the point where playing 9 is more enjoyable than 18, hence a number of priority members will fall out each year.

Othe than flat panel television sets, what else ever goes down in price?

Look at Disney just raising thir prices again this year to $95. I remember when it was $25!!! and grandparents used to get in for free. Then it went to 50% of the gate fee. And now it is the standard gate fee of $95.

As long as materials go up in price every year....and as long as workers expect a raise evry year....it is nothing but simple math....prices will go up every year to offset those increasing costs....and the increasing population will pay the price....simple supply and demand.....

btk

First, thanks for your comments. BUT, the question was; why are greens fees in the Villages higher than nearby courses. This fact is simple math to me, the adjacent golf course communities have the same increasing costs, yet they charge much less in many cases. You assume workers get regular raises, I know for sure that the Villages Golf Division staff has been paid ONLY the minimum wage forever. Lastly, you use the words "simple supply and demand".. Eureka !!!Of course this is what drives the fees here in the Villages, captive audience is also a good description. BUT, this is a contradiction of what Harold Schwartz was all about. And this is why many believe "the family" squeezed Harold out of the Villages decision making process his last 10 years on earth.

[njbchbum]

My posting was about the cost of golf in the Villages. I am personally of the opinion that golf does play a big part in why people move here. [snipped]


golf had absolutely NO part in our purchasing in the villages! neither of us plays so much as even miniature golf - 'cept for maybe a game every two years or so.

we bought because we got a hoot out of harold's original plan/vision and the extension of that plan/vision by his family!

just because the cost of golf has increased in the villages is no reason to say that harold's vision is kaput - at least to my way of thinking. lots of things have changed in my life thru the years - some good and some not-so-good. despite not coming close to the success of the schwartz/morse family, my guess is that my father would be proud of my accomplishment. and i venture to say that harold is proud of what his family has done, too! and just maybe he wonders - 'why didn't i think of that?'!

[Cantwaittoarrive]

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

Life's too short to be that upset. Why not leave and move somewhere where the prices are more reasonable?

[perrjojo]

Life's too short to be that upset. Why not leave and move somewhere where the prices are more reasonable?

We have lived in several states that are considered low cost of living; Texas, Georgia , other areas of Florida and Oklahoma. Comparing Apples to Apples, I just don't know of anyplace more reasonable than TV

[DougB]

I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. s.

I never knew Harold or any of his family, but are you serious???

[Warren Kiefer]

I never knew Harold or any of his family, but are you serious???

I am very serious, Harold Schwartz was a very special person. Sure I believe he would have enjoyed being financially comfortable. But did he want enormous wealth, I don't think so. Harold simply loved people. Have you or anyone you know have ever seen Gary Morris anywhere in the Villages ??? I would guess not. When Mr. Schwartz was alive, he could be seen nearly every day somewhere. Also it was not unusual for him to stop by when patrons where in a restaurant and perhaps even sit with that patron for a while. He was always interested in whether you were enjoying being in the Villages. To know harold Schwartz was a privilege.

[manaboutown]

It is what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Villages,_Florida

Billionaire Morse Behind Curtain at Villages - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-04/hidden-billionaire-morse-a-man-behind-curtain-at-villages.html)

[perrjojo]

Harold Schwartz lived on the Historic side until his death. I have a friend who was one of the first 50 residents here. She has nothing but the utmost praise and respect for Mr. Schwartz. He was humble and always accessible to the residents.

[Bogie Shooter]

And the real point is that Mr. Swartz had a dream and he accomplished that dream.
What happened after that was someone else's dream. That does not diminish what Mr. Swarts accomplished.

[golf4me]

And the real point is that Mr. Swartz had a dream and he accomplished that dream.
What happened after that was someone else's dream. That does not diminish what Mr. Swarts accomplished.

He sure had some smart kids. Apples don't fall far from trees.:bigbow:

[golf2140]

He sure had some smart kids. Apples don't fall far from trees.:bigbow:

:bigbow::bigbow::bigbow:

[Russ_Boston]

Starting Saturday I'll be playing most nights at 5PM for $6. Usually get in about 14-16 holes. Not too shabby!

I thank Harold and the Morse's for what we have here. Made a conscious choice and don't regret anything.

[quirky3]

Inflation is a reality. Inceasing golf fees puts the cost of inflation for golf on those who choose to play golf.
That sure beats the alternative, which is to increase general TV fees for everyone, making non-golfers financially support golfers.

[Warren Kiefer]

Life's too short to be that upset. Why not leave and move somewhere where the prices are more reasonable?

Your comment has no bearing on anything that was orginally posted. You speak of prices which one must take as being all inclusive. I have no complaint about the cost incurred for other services in the community. You and others have totally lost the point of my posting. I asked a simple question and of course was hoping for discussion. My point and being upset was generally; why are the "GOLF GREENS FEES" in the Villages more expensive that any nearby course. Of course prices have increased but they increased for the nearby courses too. Another person mentioned the hugh increase in gas prices, Gas prices have increased three fold in the past 15 years, golfing in the Villages has increased four fold.

[pooh]

Your comment has no bearing on anything that was orginally posted. You speak of prices which one must take as being all inclusive. I have no complaint about the cost incurred for other services in the community. You and others have totally lost the point of my posting. I asked a simple question and of course was hoping for discussion. My point and being upset was generally; why are the "GOLF GREENS FEES" in the Villages more expensive that any nearby course. Of course prices have increased but they increased for the nearby courses too. Another person mentioned the hugh increase in gas prices, Gas prices have increased three fold in the past 15 years, golfing in the Villages has increased four fold.

Anything ANYONE says about why is pure speculation, Warren. Scenarios are presented that may contribute to the increase here. Why other courses charge what they do, is also pure speculation. Educated guesses presented are offered. They are rejected. What else is there to say?

[rubicon]

Your comment has no bearing on anything that was orginally posted. You speak of prices which one must take as being all inclusive. I have no complaint about the cost incurred for other services in the community. You and others have totally lost the point of my posting. I asked a simple question and of course was hoping for discussion. My point and being upset was generally; why are the "GOLF GREENS FEES" in the Villages more expensive that any nearby course. Of course prices have increased but they increased for the nearby courses too. Another person mentioned the hugh increase in gas prices, Gas prices have increased three fold in the past 15 years, golfing in the Villages has increased four fold.

Warren you have a valid point but you are not going to win with some here for one simple reason it conflicts with their disney-like view of TV.

[Thnonne]

My orginal post was about the Championship greens fees. Nary a word about pickle ball, swimming pools or town squares. And your idea of there not being a fee, Check out a fee called amenity fee that you pay and while your doing that check your tax bill for an item called "special assessment"... Oh yes, how about that trail fee for driving your cart on the executive courses.

Your original post sentence #3, "Basically Harold wanted the villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement at the absolute fullest and at a reasonable cost." You were not just talking about green fees but retirement at a reasonable cost. So every post where you said posters were missing the point was not true, you weren't only talking about greens fees. What I pay in amenity fees, "special assessment" is well worth what I get for those costs. Trail fees, if I play 142 rounds thats $1 per round, much cheaper than a cart rental, if I walk or use a pull cart $0 per round. If I play more than 142 rounds which many villagers do, it costs less than $1 per round. Again, if you don't like the fees in The Villages you are welcome to travel to outside courses for cheaper fees. Please do not put down The Villages and the lifestyle they are providing for the rest of us, one that I am sure Mr Schwartz would approve of, it allows anyone who retires here to live an active lifestyle at a "reasonable cost."

[DougB]

I have been so busy since buying a home here, I must have missed something. We have some golf courses here also?!

[mulligan]

This all begs the question; Who knows what Schwartz's dream actually was ? Perhaps we are actually living in it !

[golf4me]

I think that things really started moving forward fast when Gary took over.

Just think..that is only about ten years ago or so.

Skip? When did the rapid growth begin and when did Harold die?

[Bogie Shooter]

I think that things really started moving forward fast when Gary took over.

Just think..that is only about ten years ago or so.

Skip? When did the rapid growth begin and when did Harold die?

December 2003
Villages' founder dies at 93 | Ocala.com (http://www.ocala.com/article/20031224/NEWS/212240320)

[ijusluvit]

I think that things really started moving forward fast when Gary took over.

Just think..that is only about ten years ago or so.

Skip? When did the rapid growth begin and when did Harold die?

Actually, Harold convinced his son Gay to return to Florida in the early 80's and Gary took an active role in building TV from that point on. He also introduced his children and their kids into the process along the way. The real growth began around 1990 with the completion of the three Villages closest to Spanish Springs. Harold gradually withdrew from day-to-day decision making but was still seen on daily walks throughout his own neighborhood and in parades and other activities. Poor health prevented him from continuing public appearances some years before his death in 2003.