Awful course conditions

[djl8412]

:mad:The conditions of many of our championship courses in TV are deplorable. If you seek answers from the management you will undoubtedly need Dramamine to combat motion sickness from the spin you'll get. We played Evans Prairie 8 days ago with little grass on the fairways and substandard greens. Yesterday, Cane Garden was a little better but far from what it should be. I feel that since moving to TV 6 years ago the course conditions have steadily declined. When I questioned irrigation policies and noted that very few restrictions take place during snowbird season, I was challenged with excuses and statements that TV irrigation system for our courses was one of the most advanced, state of the art systems anywhere. I'd hate to see the worst! The attitude of many is, of course, "you don't like it, play somewhere else." That's exactly what we do during the winter when TV rates soar and find outside courses in better condition and more affordable and why it's now worth considering in the summer. Just look at the deals of other courses in the area and give them a try. :wave:

[justjim]

OP, I am inclined to agree with you that the championship courses were below average condition this winter. I do know we had an extremely dry winter but most of the surrounding courses were in better condition. If I owned and operated the Villages Championship courses, I would be asking some questions of my greens keepers and if I didn't get some answers I would be doing some new hiring.

[mickey100]

Geez, I'm signed up to play Cane this afternoon. Ugh!

[mickey100]

:mad:The conditions of many of our championship courses in TV are deplorable. If you seek answers from the management you will undoubtedly need Dramamine to combat motion sickness from the spin you'll get. We played Evans Prairie 8 days ago with little grass on the fairways and substandard greens. Yesterday, Cane Garden was a little better but far from what it should be. I feel that since moving to TV 6 years ago the course conditions have steadily declined. When I questioned irrigation policies and noted that very few restrictions take place during snowbird season, I was challenged with excuses and statements that TV irrigation system for our courses was one of the most advanced, state of the art systems anywhere. I'd hate to see the worst! The attitude of many is, of course, "you don't like it, play somewhere else." That's exactly what we do during the winter when TV rates soar and find outside courses in better condition and more affordable and why it's now worth considering in the summer. Just look at the deals of other courses in the area and give them a try. :wave:


Just curious - who did you speak to in Management? I spoke to the head of golf operations, can't remember his name now, and he was quite honest about the conditions. This was a couple of years ago. Ata the time I had complained to him about the conditions at Orange blossom. Apparently he had received many complaints, and I think they went and got a different maintenance company. Since then the conditions there have been much better. Bottom line, if the word gets to the correct person in management, and a large number of people complain, I think it is possible to effect change.

[rubicon]

boy I love these dryed out golf courses the fairways are as hard as a rock. so now i don't have to aim for the cartpaths to get any amount of distance. i can just fire down the middle of the fairway and let that puppy roll for over 100 yeards in order to hit a 240 drive.:D

[Bogie Shooter]

:mad:The conditions of many of our championship courses in TV are deplorable. If you seek answers from the management you will undoubtedly need Dramamine to combat motion sickness from the spin you'll get. We played Evans Prairie 8 days ago with little grass on the fairways and substandard greens. Yesterday, Cane Garden was a little better but far from what it should be. I feel that since moving to TV 6 years ago the course conditions have steadily declined. When I questioned irrigation policies and noted that very few restrictions take place during snowbird season, I was challenged with excuses and statements that TV irrigation system for our courses was one of the most advanced, state of the art systems anywhere. I'd hate to see the worst! The attitude of many is, of course, "you don't like it, play somewhere else." That's exactly what we do during the winter when TV rates soar and find outside courses in better condition and more affordable and why it's now worth considering in the summer. Just look at the deals of other courses in the area and give them a try. :wave:

I wonder what the average rainfall per year was the last 6 years?

[djl8412]

Just curious - who did you speak to in Management? I spoke to the head of golf operations, can't remember his name now, and he was quite honest about the conditions. This was a couple of years ago. Ata the time I had complained to him about the conditions at Orange blossom. Apparently he had received many complaints, and I think they went and got a different maintenance company. Since then the conditions there have been much better. Bottom line, if the word gets to the correct person in management, and a large number of people complain, I think it is possible to effect change.

I believe manager of operations changed since a couple of years ago. I had corresponded by email last year because of cart path only restrictions on Mallory when the fairways were in good condition. Golf carts were allowed to use fairways the previous day. The staff in the pro shop stated the restrictions while the starter said there were no such restrictions. Many times when you inquire about the poor course conditions at the pro shop you get answers such as "our pumps were down for 5 months" you feel insulted. If management waits until complaints pour in instead of personal inspections and oversight before changing maintenance people, then that indicates the need for changes in course management.

[davecz1]

I have played several courses south of 466 the last 3 weeks. All in poor to fair shape. Lack of water makes it partially understandable. I have played several courses north and find them in much better shape. IMHO. It appears the older the better.

[Mikeod]

I have played several courses south of 466 the last 3 weeks. All in poor to fair shape. Lack of water makes it partially understandable. I have played several courses north and find them in much better shape. IMHO. It appears the older the better.
That's not a coincidence. The older courses have had time for the bermuda grass roots to get deeper so they show less stress from lack of water and traffic.

[TrudyM]

I just got through arguing with all my husbands childhood friends, that the villages would be better for our retirement than out here in Hawaii (We are visiting family as we do every May) because with the lower cost of living :$: and all the courses available he could play golf as often as he liked. I need to win this debate as they are pushing hard for us to live here and I hate Honolulu.

If course conditions are that bad on the 18's how bad are the more challenging of the exc courses.:cryin2: If one planned to play them to work on ones short game?

How much additional do I need to plan in the budget for off campus golf? And if you can't play in the villages why live there isn't golf the whole point.

[waynet]

Either the golf leadership is ignorant or really doesn't care about the conditions. No one is using Bermuda anymore. It can't stand up to the heat and needs far too much water. There are new strains of grass that are both heat tolerant and need little water to thrive. Yet Bonifay,Evans Praire and the new exec course all use the old grasses. And lets see what they use on the courses they are redoing bet it's the same old stuff. Even the cost of the new grasses is not prohibitive. I believe greens can be replaced for about $300,000 per 18 holes. Gee, maybe there is another reason,they are cheapskates.

[Mikeod]

I just got through arguing with all my husbands childhood friends, that the villages would be better for our retirement than out here in Hawaii (We are visiting family as we do every May) because with the lower cost of living :$: and all the courses available he could play golf as often as he liked. I need to win this debate as they are pushing hard for us to live here and I hate Honolulu.

If course conditions are that bad on the 18's how bad are the more challenging of the exc courses.:cryin2: If one planned to play them to work on ones short game?

How much additional do I need to plan in the budget for off campus golf? And if you can't play in the villages why live there isn't golf the whole point.

To answer your last question first, golf is not the whole point of TV. Golf is big here, but there are so many other things to do as well.

We have experienced unusual winters the last few years. First, there was a combination of colder than normal fall/winter periods when we also had lower than normal rainfall. That, combined with the increased play during the high season, had a negative effect on the courses. The last winter was milder, but there was still lower rainfall than normal. Other, older, courses outside TV seem to have weathered the situation better. Some of those courses are not as restricted with water use as TV is. Some of those courses also have lower fees than TV both winter and summer. So you have a choice. Play within TV which is more convenient, or outside TV which may be less expensive and may be in better condition at times.

In questioning the costs of the championship courses, I was informed the maintenance costs here are significantly higher than outside TV mostly because of the high volume of play they get all year round. As posted above, the older courses within TV tend to be in better condition because the turf has had more time to mature.

IMO, complaints about conditions occur seasonally. This is the time when we are transitioning from the overseed to the regular bermuda. One way to do this is to cut the grass shorter than normal and reduce watering. This kills any remnants of the overseed. Follow that with aeration, fertilization, and water to stimulate the bermuda. During this phase, the course will be hard, thin, and unattractive. When completed, it will be much improved. So I don't see as many complaints during the summer, especially if we get normal rainfall.

[waynet]

Did not mean Bermuda grass meant no one uses bent grass anymore. Many are changing to Ultra Dwarf Bermuda grass. Not the Villages though. They must know something no one else knows.

[davecz1]

I just got through arguing with all my husbands childhood friends, that the villages would be better for our retirement than out here in Hawaii (We are visiting family as we do every May) because with the lower cost of living :$: and all the courses available he could play golf as often as he liked. I need to win this debate as they are pushing hard for us to live here and I hate Honolulu.

If course conditions are that bad on the 18's how bad are the more challenging of the exc courses.:cryin2: If one planned to play them to work on ones short game?

How much additional do I need to plan in the budget for off campus golf? And if you can't play in the villages why live there isn't golf the whole point.

Basically every course off campus are cheaper. Most I have played are in better shape. Throw in a gallon of gas to get there and you still come out better off campus. Again, IMHO. That being said I do love the execs for fun.:wave:

[Mikeod]

Did not mean Bermuda grass meant no one uses bent grass anymore. Many are changing to Ultra Dwarf Bermuda grass. Not the Villages though. They must know something no one else knows.

There is no bent grass in TV. The fairways and greens are bermuda hybrids. Bent grass wouldn't require overseed in the winter.

[Mikeod]

I believe greens can be replaced for about $300,000 per 18 holes. Gee, maybe there is another reason,they are cheapskates.

I question your price on replacing greens with dwarf hybrid bermuda. My research shows the cost to replace a green to USGA specifications ran about $50K per green and up 4 years ago. That would compute to almost $1 million per 18 holes. But even if it's accurate, you are talking about $6.5 million and all the down time to do it throughout TV championship courses. Then there are the execs. Tierra will be out of play all summer. Are you willing to lose one course every year? Even in the high season?

Research on the ultra dwarf and dwarf hybrids indicate they are far more sensitive to maintenance issues.

Are you prepared to pay more to play here?

The championship courses are self-supporting. If conditions deteriorate to a point that play drops, they could raise the fees to recoup lost income, which would further discourage play. Or they could address the maintenance issues so that play increases and income is restored. OR they could turn over the courses to a national or regional management company with no ties to TV that could make the courses completely public without Priority access or discounts for residents.

[nitehawk]

When i move here in 2005 there were 7 champion courses and
Cane was just building the third nine. I would have given a 7 or 8 to the course conditions then, as time went on and the newer courses were build the whole championship golf conditions deteriorated. I once referred to the newer courses a cow pastures with sand - everyone jumped all over me --- well i can now say the the rest of the courses can now join the cow pasture category. i moved here mostly for golf - not to go the the square
but that is just me.... I dont really care what kind of grass is on the courses -blue -green - bent or straight - it is not my job - to the powers that control the conditions - fix them --thats your job ---if I performed my job like you perform your job I would have been fired --- as of now i will continue to bash the conditions and architecture of the tv courses whether here or on the web.until this is corrected - I will also tell anyone interested in a move to the villages about the detererating conditions or the championship courses -- that is my part --- now Fix them----If the county can allow a comerical bottler of water to take out millions of gallons from the aquaduct and sell it country wide... then we should be able to use some for irrigation -- what happen to the political pull -- all of the rallies in the squares So i have to have a glass of kool aid --- I need it

[rubicon]

Golf fees vis a vis playing conditions on TV Championship courses is inversely related.

In fairness one can say that TV courses get a lot of play...but so do other courses.

In fairness one can say that TV courses get a lot of play but then since they have higher fees they also have more money to spent on maintenance.

The Developer has a habit of spinning off what he feels is not profitable. Sooo too with the Championship courses. time will tell the tale

[Mikeod]

Railing about course conditions on a message board may make you feel better but won't accomplish anything. Since there is a group that feels strongly that course conditions are inadequate, I would suggest that you start with your regular golf group and recruit as many like minded people as possible. Create an agenda outlining point by point what you feel needs to be improved and present it in person to golf administration.

However, I would suggest you avoid terms like cheapskate, ignorant, don't care, cow pasture with sand, as it won't help your cause. I would also suggest you brush up on water allocation rules.

Just remember, if the courses are usually filled (except Palmer), revenues are covering short and long term expenses plus a profit, and homes are selling well, the owner may not agree there is a need to change things.

[kimball]

:mad:The conditions of many of our championship courses in TV are deplorable. If you seek answers from the management you will undoubtedly need Dramamine to combat motion sickness from the spin you'll get. We played Evans Prairie 8 days ago with little grass on the fairways and substandard greens. Yesterday, Cane Garden was a little better but far from what it should be. I feel that since moving to TV 6 years ago the course conditions have steadily declined. When I questioned irrigation policies and noted that very few restrictions take place during snowbird season, I was challenged with excuses and statements that TV irrigation system for our courses was one of the most advanced, state of the art systems anywhere. I'd hate to see the worst! The attitude of many is, of course, "you don't like it, play somewhere else." That's exactly what we do during the winter when TV rates soar and find outside courses in better condition and more affordable and why it's now worth considering in the summer. Just look at the deals of other courses in the area and give them a try. :wave:

It's been this way for years. They simply don't spend enough to build the courses properly and they surely don't spend enough to maintain them. Have personally talked to top Golf Management many times and get nothing but BS excuses. Why would they care when the vast number of people who live here don't know the difference between good and bad and continue offering unwarranted praise. You are absolutely right that the courses here are substandard. Virtually every trip off site proves time and time again how really bad these courses are. Played Bonifay last week and almost broke a wrist trying to stick a plastic Tee into the ground (18 times) Fairway like an airport runway and the greens hard as a rock. Also played Lopez last week, just a few weeks after the LPGA Legends played it under pristine conditions. The fairways are mowed way to low, the greens were pathetic.

Numerous area courses are far better. (Juliette Falls, Celebration, Stony Brook West, Arlington Ridge, etc, etc, etc.)

[CraigC]

The conditions are very poor at Cane, Mallory, Evans Prairie, and Legacy. Those are the only ones that I have been to in the last few weeks. I have only been here a year, but even with the extreme drought last year, it seemed that the courses were in much better condition at this time last year. Cane was in poor condition last summer, but the others seemed much better last year.

[palmers]

Yes I agree. there is something very bad going on with some of our courses like Cane Garden but on the other hand some of the execs are the best I have ever seen them, ie. Mira Mesa, De La Vista, Chula Vista, Silver Lake.




:mad:The conditions of many of our championship courses in TV are deplorable. If you seek answers from the management you will undoubtedly need Dramamine to combat motion sickness from the spin you'll get. We played Evans Prairie 8 days ago with little grass on the fairways and substandard greens. Yesterday, Cane Garden was a little better but far from what it should be. I feel that since moving to TV 6 years ago the course conditions have steadily declined. When I questioned irrigation policies and noted that very few restrictions take place during snowbird season, I was challenged with excuses and statements that TV irrigation system for our courses was one of the most advanced, state of the art systems anywhere. I'd hate to see the worst! The attitude of many is, of course, "you don't like it, play somewhere else." That's exactly what we do during the winter when TV rates soar and find outside courses in better condition and more affordable and why it's now worth considering in the summer. Just look at the deals of other courses in the area and give them a try. :wave:

[mickey100]

I played Cane yesterday, and it was like a cow pasture on some of the holes. Do yourself a favor and save your money.

[rubicon]

Railing about course conditions on a message board may make you feel better but won't accomplish anything. Since there is a group that feels strongly that course conditions are inadequate, I would suggest that you start with your regular golf group and recruit as many like minded people as possible. Create an agenda outlining point by point what you feel needs to be improved and present it in person to golf administration.

However, I would suggest you avoid terms like cheapskate, ignorant, don't care, cow pasture with sand, as it won't help your cause. I would also suggest you brush up on water allocation rules.

Just remember, if the courses are usually filled (except Palmer), revenues are covering short and long term expenses plus a profit, and homes are selling well, the owner may not agree there is a need to change things.

mikeod: I have a theory that in one way or another the Developer's people monitor this forum, which I view as being very smart. Heck they may even help finance the forum since it is so beneficial to this Development.

I cite as proof the well responded threads on Health Care in The Villages. Now compare that with the recent news blitz in the Daily Sun concerning Welby, etc.

I believe that people should express their true feelings of course with objectivity and fairness. And why it makes no sense for some to respond with ïf you don't like it move."

This forum affords us an opportunity to express our feelings and experiences concerning The Villages without either the resident or the Developer losing face. "What A Forum"

I opine you decide

[batman911]

I doubt conditions will improve as long as residents keep playing and the courses keep making money. Vote with your feet. The courses are business enterprises and they all need to make a profit.

[waynet]

Mikeod,I must beg to differ with your research. Here is the method used. Spray greens with roundup and let them die. What's left is scalped by mowers. Next spread Champions Bermuda using a no-till method. Nothing is dug up. This ultra dwarf Bermuda is changing golf in the south. The entire process takes 8 weeks and they are ready to play. The greens take one summer aeration and saves hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. $350,000 for 18 holes. Verdict Ridge,Peninsula club,river run,River Hills,Rock River,Sedgefield,Quail Hollow, Pinehurst and Atlanta Athletic Club are just some that have entered the 21st century of agronomy. I just don't understand what the golf administrators are thinking and I do believe they don't care.

[nitehawk]

Mikeod,I must beg to differ with your research. Here is the method used. Spray greens with roundup and let them die. What's left is scalped by mowers. Next spread Champions Bermuda using a no-till method. Nothing is dug up. This ultra dwarf Bermuda is changing golf in the south. The entire process takes 8 weeks and they are ready to play. The greens take one summer aeration and saves hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. $350,000 for 18 holes. Verdict Ridge,Peninsula club,river run,River Hills,Rock River,Sedgefield,Quail Hollow, Pinehurst and Atlanta Athletic Club are just some that have entered the 21st century of agronomy. I just don't understand what the golf administrators are thinking and I do believe they don't care.

how about the fairways ??? Thanks for the information

[Mikeod]

Mikeod,I must beg to differ with your research. Here is the method used. Spray greens with roundup and let them die. What's left is scalped by mowers. Next spread Champions Bermuda using a no-till method. Nothing is dug up. This ultra dwarf Bermuda is changing golf in the south. The entire process takes 8 weeks and they are ready to play. The greens take one summer aeration and saves hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. $350,000 for 18 holes. Verdict Ridge,Peninsula club,river run,River Hills,Rock River,Sedgefield,Quail Hollow, Pinehurst and Atlanta Athletic Club are just some that have entered the 21st century of agronomy. I just don't understand what the golf administrators are thinking and I do believe they don't care.

I appreciate the update. Still, you're talking millions of dollars to re-do the championship courses and take each one out of play for up to eight weeks. That also assumes the green base is satisfactory. if so, great. if not, there is much more work to to. Then there is the matter of maintenance. I believe from the website link below that the statement of one summer aeration reflects only part of the story. And, if you search for ultra dwarf bermuda diseases, you will see that there are significant concerns that may be exacerbated by the amount of play these get. And, if the maintenance issues you decry are there, will they be able to maintain the new greens any better than the present ones despite the reduced water demand?

Managing Ultra-dwarf Greens - LSU AgCenter (http://text.lsuagcenter.com/en/lawn_garden/commercial_horticulture/turfgrass/golf_course_management/Managing+Ultradwarf+Greens.htm)


Truthfully, I would love to play on greens with champion or mini-verde or another ultra dwarf bermuda. The reduced grain and increased speed are desirable. TPC Sawgrass has champion, I believe, and putting there is wonderful. But, IMO, the greens here, once the transition from overseed is complete, are not the big problem with course conditions.

To me, most complaints are with the fairways and the amount of turf cushion from which to play. I attribute this to a few factors. One, IMO, the newer courses, Bonifay and Evans, were opened too soon. They really needed to sit for another growing season to let the grasses mature. I understand that there would be an outcry from the new residents south of 466A who see a golf course they cannot use. But putting all those carts and players on immature grass results in what you see now. Havana also was opened ahead of schedule, primarily because of the damage done to Mallory by the tornado. It took some time before Havana fairways got better.

A second factor is the use of carts itself. Watch any hole on any course, and you will see cart after cart driving right down the middle of the fairway. Multiply this by the number of tee times and you have a recipe for compaction of the turf and delayed recovery of the turf grass . Add to that the number of RA sleeves that allow carts to drive up to 15 feet of the green and you add even more to turf damage. I would not want to see carts restricted to paths only since it would prevent many residents from playing simply because of the walking required from path to ball and back. But perhaps if more used the rough to travel, the fairways would be in better shape. This factor affects all the courses.

Another factor is the availability of water. Again, my information is that TV has a set water allocation from the regional water authority for everything below 466. Homes, landscaping, and golf courses draw from that same allocation. The more homes drawing water, the less is available elsewhere. The local water authority has the ability to reclaim water for irrigation, which reduces the draw on the allocation but is insufficient on its own to meet all irrigation requirements. The courses have tonrely on rainfall to provide immediate water and to fill retention ponds to provide water when it's not raining. When rainfall is insufficient, the fairways suffer as the choice should be to protect the greens first.

I volunteer with a group that monitors all the executive courses for maintenance issues and meets with golf administration quarterly to exchange information. In between meetings, if we see something that needs to be addressed, we can, and do, contact the proper people to let them know. In my years with this group, I have never been given the impression they don't care. Quite the opposite, they have worked with us to improve the quality of the courses. Our suggestions are noted and, when possible, acted upon, which happens more often than not. Perhaps what is needed is a similar group for the championship courses, if one doesn't already exist.

[mickey100]

I question some of the decisions that are made regarding the courses. I personally never thought there was an issue with the greens at Tierra del Sol. The fairways needed work, but the greens seemed fine. So what do they do - pull up all the greens, they'll be replanting, and the course won't be decent for a couple of years. Yet a course like Amelia on Mallory - seems to have a lot of problems with greens - they are dry, don't hold. They had problems for years with the practice green at Mallory, and the pro there showed me a layer of organic material below the surface that was causing the problem. They finally ripped up that green and re-planted, but it took them years, after initially denying there was a problem. I wonder if the courses were really built to the specs they should have been, and now we are paying for that in maintenance issues. Mikeod, I agree that the management cares, but I do wonder about some the decisions that are made.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

There is no bent grass in TV. The fairways and greens are bermuda hybrids. Bent grass wouldn't require overseed in the winter.

I don't think that there is very much bent grass south of the Mason Dixon line. Bent grass is very susceptible to many diseases and does not tolerate heat very well. Unless there are some new strains of bent that can be grown in the south I think that almost all the greens and fairways down here are Bermuda.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

To me, most complaints are with the fairways and the amount of turf cushion from which to play. I attribute this to a few factors.

You left out the fact that many golfers come from the north where fairways tend to to be longer and fluffy. They have learned to scoop the ball rather than to correctly hit down and through the turf. Most good player would rather play off of rock hard fairways than to have grass growing up around the ball. Go play golf over in Scotland on some of the greatest, most renown courses in the world. You'll see how golf is meant to be played.

[PaPaLarry]

Whats the average price to replace old green with new green? $30,000.00?

[RVRoadie]

I have heard that it is the counties that control the water allocations for the golf courses, not TV. TV may own the retention ponds and irrigation systems, but not the water in them. Since the course conditions are pretty much the result of a lack of water, shouldn't complaints be directed at the counties?

[Mikeod]

I question some of the decisions that are made regarding the courses. I personally never thought there was an issue with the greens at Tierra del Sol. The fairways needed work, but the greens seemed fine. So what do they do - pull up all the greens, they'll be replanting, and the course won't be decent for a couple of years. Yet a course like Amelia on Mallory - seems to have a lot of problems with greens - they are dry, don't hold. They had problems for years with the practice green at Mallory, and the pro there showed me a layer of organic material below the surface that was causing the problem. They finally ripped up that green and re-planted, but it took them years, after initially denying there was a problem. I wonder if the courses were really built to the specs they should have been, and now we are paying for that in maintenance issues. Mikeod, I agree that the management cares, but I do wonder about some the decisions that are made.

A lot depends on what you're used to. I started out playing golf in the northeast and remember that the better courses had bent greens that held almost any shot. Then I went west and played on hybrid bermuda greens. I thought they were bad at first because they were hard and would only hold a short iron that was well struck. I made friends with the course superintendent, who had a lot of experience with both grasses, and he told me that a healthy bermuda green will be more firm than a bent green in general. Part of it is the amount of water a bent green requires, especially over the summer even up north. He also felt the base was different which also contributed to the firmness. Bent roots are fairly shallow, whereas bermuda roots can get very deep, although the majority of roots will be in the top 3 feet or so. This is why bermuda needs less water and why it thrives in the south.

I can't tell you why Tierra's greens are being re-done and I agree they seemed to be good. Perhaps there was an ongoing problem that required an inordinate amount of work to keep them that way. I don't know. Perhaps they were approaching the end of their useful life and they decided to remake them at the same time they reworked the rest of the course.

I, too, wonder if the construction method used is optimal for long term health of the courses or if it's aimed at creating a quick greening up but creates maintenance nightmares in the future. And there is also the question of funding renovation. We are lucky in that all the execs north of 466 plus the Pimlico courses get funding from the AAC and, so far, there hasn't been a problem with funds for maintenance and upgrades. And they have approved a ten year plan for maintenance and renovation for these courses. I wonder if there is a similar plan and funding for the championship courses.

Again, I would like to see if there is an opportunity for a resident group to interact with golf administration regarding the championship courses. Even at the non-equity clubs I belonged to, there was an opportunity to discuss concerns with management/ownership. They may not agree, but at least we were heard.

[Mikeod]

I have heard that it is the counties that control the water allocations for the golf courses, not TV. TV may own the retention ponds and irrigation systems, but not the water in them. Since the course conditions are pretty much the result of a lack of water, shouldn't complaints be directed at the counties?

I don't think that's true. There are two large water districts that control water allocation to TV. St. John's controls Lake County (among many other counties) and Southwest Florida for the rest of TV. There are significant fines involved for overuse of water by TV.

[glencus]

You left out the fact that many golfers come from the north where fairways tend to to be longer and fluffy. They have learned to scoop the ball rather than to correctly hit down and through the turf. Most good player would rather play off of rock hard fairways than to have grass growing up around the ball. Go play golf over in Scotland on some of the greatest, most renown courses in the world. You'll see how golf is meant to be played.

Recently hired by Golf Administration????? They sing the same tune.

[Mikeod]

Recently hired by Golf Administration????? They sing the same tune.
Maybe because they're correct. The touring pros prefer a tight lie so they can control distance and spin. The links courses of Scotland are dependent on rain for irrigation in most cases and therefore tend to be hard and fast. You don't see those large, pelt divots on southern courses because the bermuda fairways tend to break up on impact.

But there is a happy medium between rock hard fairways and soft, grassy fairways and I think that's what is sought here.

[zcaveman]

Maybe because they're correct. The touring pros prefer a tight lie so they can control distance and spin. The links courses of Scotland are dependent on rain for irrigation in most cases and therefore tend to be hard and fast. You don't see those large, pelt divots on southern courses because the bermuda fairways tend to break up on impact.

But there is a happy medium between rock hard fairways and soft, grassy fairways and I think that's what is sought here.

Maybe I am confused. We are not in Scotland. We are in TV. We have water restrictions but we also have rain (sometimes). The courses that I play seem pretty good. But then I only play north of 466. I guess I don't know what we are all looking for. I doubt that we will see the courses in TV that we see on the TV. Our TV courses are not trying to get professional golfers or put our courses on TV.

Try the other courses in TV and see if you can find some that you like.


Z

[Mikeod]

Maybe I am confused. We are not in Scotland. We are in TV. We have water restrictions but we also have rain (sometimes). The courses that I play seem pretty good. But then I only play north of 466. I guess I don't know what we are all looking for. I doubt that we will see the courses in TV that we see on the TV. Our TV courses are not trying to get professional golfers or put our courses on TV.

Try the other courses in TV and see if you can find some that you like.


Z

No Z. You're not confused. Got off track. I agree the courses north of 466 tend to better since they have had more time to mature. Hacienda had problems because of inadequate irrigation installed during construction, I believe. That has been corrected.

And it's true our courses are not intended by design to challenge pros. They are designed for the population that lives here, and the vastly different skill levels of our fellow residents.

But course conditions affect everyone differently. Depends on what your accustomed to and your expectations. I think we've had a good discussion in this thread.

[djl8412]

We have been in a rain deficit for a couple of years, maybe more. Just look at many of the retention ponds. They have averaged a very low level consistently the past few years. Anyone check out Paradise Lake? It's already a pasture once covered by water earlier than last summer. Yet, when we do have bouts of heavy rain and the ponds get filled the irrigation systems run day and night as "flood control" pouring water into poor drainage areas instead of saving it for times of drought. I received some flack a while back for criticizing the "flood control" policy. I was informed that we have one of the most advanced irrigation system here. If we do then those who oversee it need to re-think some of the automatic discharges in time of heavy rains. Adding water to already standing, stagnant water on fairways reeks of stupidity and invites damage to turf.

[glencus]

Maybe because they're correct. The touring pros prefer a tight lie so they can control distance and spin. The links courses of Scotland are dependent on rain for irrigation in most cases and therefore tend to be hard and fast. You don't see those large, pelt divots on southern courses because the bermuda fairways tend to break up on impact.

But there is a happy medium between rock hard fairways and soft, grassy fairways and I think that's what is sought here.

Using this theory, how would you account for the fact that the Lopez Course was turned into exactly the opposite of what you describe for the recent LPGA Legends Tournament. Great pains were taken to grow the grass higher so the ball sits up in the fairways. Greens were about 11 on a stintmeter. The greens were soft and held shots. The course was pristine. It is now back to where it was for what I'll call resident conditions. I've played golf all over the world (yes, including Scotland) and have never seen conditions as bad as they regularly are under standard Villages Conditions. Oh, by the way, how many touring pros play here to warrant maintaining our courses in the ideal condition you describe. These courses are ideal for no one but residents, many of whom will defend how things are done whether right or wrong, a concept that many have not yet grasped. Oh yes, I've also played US Open Courses, a venue used for the Rider Cup and a course that hosted the PGA championship, a US Women,' Open venue and never observed "Resident Conditions" as I see here day in and day out..

[Mikeod]

Using this theory, how would you account for the fact that the Lopez Course was turned into exactly the opposite of what you describe for the recent LPGA Legends Tournament. Great pains were taken to grow the grass higher so the ball sits up in the fairways. Greens were about 11 on a stintmeter. The greens were soft and held shots. The course was pristine. It is now back to where it was for what I'll call resident conditions. I've played golf all over the world (yes, including Scotland) and have never seen conditions as bad as they regularly are under standard Villages Conditions. Oh, by the way, how many touring pros play here to warrant maintaining our courses in the ideal condition you describe. These courses are ideal for no one but residents, many of whom will defend how things are done whether right or wrong, a concept that many have not yet grasped. Oh yes, I've also played US Open Courses, a venue used for the Rider Cup and a course that hosted the PGA championship, a US Women,' Open venue and never observed "Resident Conditions" as I see here day in and day out..

Did you miss the article in the paper that described the special work that was done to Lopez in preparation for the tournament? Do you realize that the tournament was played with overseeded fairways and greens? I played Lopez the Monday after the tournament and it was great, but it is not something that can be sustained on a daily basis with the amount of play here.

Probably the best comparison to what we have here may be the condition of Torrey Pines for the Open and for the regular tour event compared to the conditions the rest of the time as a municipal course with a lot of play. There is no comparison. It doesn't look like the same course.

It's clear that we cannot reach common ground in this discussion. I hope you enjoy your time here on and off the golf course.

[nitehawk]

i will enjoy my time both off and on the golf courses - mostly off the couses in TV - I will continue to knock the course conditions in TV until things change. What i gather from all of the experts is that the pros would love to come and play here in tv where the fairways are void of grass and hard as rock - so now they can get spin on the ball. you will need spin to stop you ball when it hits the rock hard green. i also gather that maybe the people from scotland or england would love to come and play also, as that is the way golf was meant to be played. i used to play tennis with a wooden racket and ski with 7 foot skis, but times change ---- i have not seen any pros practicing on our courses --- should be a great play to practice. i bow to the experts - so have a good time :bigbow:

[Mikeod]

i will enjoy my time both off and on the golf courses - mostly off the couses in TV - I will continue to knock the course conditions in TV until things change. What i gather from all of the experts is that the pros would love to come and play here in tv where the fairways are void of grass and hard as rock - so now they can get spin on the ball. you will need spin to stop you ball when it hits the rock hard green. i also gather that maybe the people from scotland or england would love to come and play also, as that is the way golf was meant to be played. i used to play tennis with a wooden racket and ski with 7 foot skis, but times change ---- i have not seen any pros practicing on our courses --- should be a great play to practice. i bow to the experts - so have a good time :bigbow:

Sorry you have missed the point of this thread. Ranting and raving about course conditions on a message board that is independent of TV will accomplish nothing except raise blood pressures. From the input of other posters, it is apparent that contacting golf administration as an individual nets nothing. (Especially if terms such as ignorant, cheapskate, or uncaring are used.) There exists a volunteer group that has been effective in working with golf administration on the exec courses. Perhaps a similar group could be formed for the championship courses.

One concern with that is that we have no investment in the championship courses. They were not promised to us as the execs were. They are privately owned. Therefore, they have no obligation to form such a group, but there is no harm in trying. But the focus has to be on what WE (residents, golf administration, and ownership) can do to improve it.

So, my point is that abandoning TV courses is certainly your prerogative. But it is also certain to result in no improvement. Even if you multiply yourself by 100 or 200 or more, the loss of play you represent will go completely unnoticed.

Saying "Fix it!" and walking away won't do it.

[mickey100]

I agree. I think we need to bombard the golf adminstration people with phone calls, letters, etc., as well as letters to the Daily Sun. Keep that wheel squeaking or nothing will get done. And it doesn't hurt to keep up the comments and posts on TOTV. When potential buyers see the negative posts, and word gets back to the real estate salespeople and upwards to the Morses, it may help things along as well. Here is an email address to start with - thevillagesgolfdivision@gmail.com and an address and phone number:
Country Club Administration 352-753-3396 1000 Main St. Suite 248 32159

As MikeOD said, one person making a phone call now and then isn't going to cut it. Hundreds of phone calls and emails are going to get someone's attention.

[nitehawk]

I agree. I think we need to bombard the golf adminstration people with phone calls, letters, etc., as well as letters to the Daily Sun. Keep that wheel squeaking or nothing will get done. And it doesn't hurt to keep up the comments and posts on TOTV. When potential buyers see the negative posts, and word gets back to the real estate salespeople and upwards to the Morses, it may help things along as well. Here is an email address to start with - thevillagesgolfdivision@gmail.com and an address and phone number:
Country Club Administration 352-753-3396 1000 Main St. Suite 248 32159

As MikeOD said, one person making a phone call now and then isn't going to cut it. Hundreds of phone calls and emails are going to get someone's attention.

thank you for the information :BigApplause:- i will call and send email. maybe enough of us may help - it a lot better then arguing about bent grass compared to blue etc.

[rubicon]

I worked for a large corporation. It was so large that they had an internal market so they did not need to go outside to look for cnadidates to fill jobs.

The Villages has an internal market, residents, plenty of them who play golf.
Residents can vote with their feet. Apparnetly the vast majority are satisfied. My wife just took up golf. I took her to Baseline. She made comment that the rough at Baseline was better than the fairways in The Villages. This from a newbie

[waynet]

Rubicon,you hit the nail on the head. The Villages has a captive audience and I think an audience that for the most part doesn't care about the conditions because many know nothing else.

[Ithreeputtoo]

I agree that the course conditions are not good. I play both executive and championship courses and neither are in good shape. The tee boxes are so hard you cannot hardly put a tee in the ground and the fairways are like the cart path. I love living here but hope there will be changes in the way the courses are taken care of. I know we are suppose to get over 50 inches of rain a year and that we have had a lack of rain which would help so much. I am wondering if they are using all the water up on the new courses as they are being watered almost everyday and there may be some restrictions on how much water maybe used for golf courses. A few years back I gave up golf for a while do to the conditions at that time as well. I maybe getting back to that feeling soon.

[mickey100]

My complaints have mainly been with the championship courses. I have found the Executive courses to be in better shape, generally, than they used to be. Perhaps because of the resident committees. And the Executive golf is free, so I wouldn't expect the conditions for free golf to be as good as golf courses where you pay to play. Sadly, that is not the case. I played Southern Star yesterday, and with the exceptions of a few bad greens, the course was in better shape than Cane Garden was last week.

[waynet]

Cane Garden has been bad for almost 2 years. You would think that those responsible would try something else. But they just keep doing the same old stuff and Cane,a great layout,continues to suffer. We need the golf administrators to enter the 21st century. What are they afraid of?

[Mikeod]

I agree that the course conditions are not good. I play both executive and championship courses and neither are in good shape. The tee boxes are so hard you cannot hardly put a tee in the ground and the fairways are like the cart path. I love living here but hope there will be changes in the way the courses are taken care of. I know we are suppose to get over 50 inches of rain a year and that we have had a lack of rain which would help so much. I am wondering if they are using all the water up on the new courses as they are being watered almost everyday and there may be some restrictions on how much water maybe used for golf courses. A few years back I gave up golf for a while do to the conditions at that time as well. I maybe getting back to that feeling soon.

Randy,
They get a temporary increase in the allocation for a newly sprigged golf course. I think it's only for 30 days or so. They still have to pay extra for the water, but won't get fined for exceeding the allocation. So they don't need to steal water from the other courses for the ones in construction.

[Bruiser1]

:highfive:I just got through arguing with all my husbands childhood friends, that the villages would be better for our retirement than out here in Hawaii (We are visiting family as we do every May) because with the lower cost of living :$: and all the courses available he could play golf as often as he liked. I need to win this debate as they are pushing hard for us to live here and I hate Honolulu.

If course conditions are that bad on the 18's how bad are the more challenging of the exc courses.:cryin2: If one planned to play them to work on ones short game?

How much additional do I need to plan in the budget for off campus golf? And if you can't play in the villages why live there isn't golf the whole point.

You will find the off campus courses are very accommodating. If you go to Stone Crest for example you can play 18 with cart for u der 30 dollars . yes it's a mile north of the villages . It overlooks the villages.
About a mile east of Brownwood there is a country course named Continential. For a little over $17 (tax ) you will find a 18 hole course once frequented by Micky Mantle (his club was stuck in a tree off the 18th hole)
the day we were there the main broke and part of the fairway was roped off .
The people couldn't have been more accommodating or apologetic. The Pro drove out personally to give us a rain check. so 36 holes for 17 dollars is not too shabby.

[mickey100]

Why do you people not understand that trying to get things improved here is not outrageous.

Totally agree. :BigApplause:

[Warren Kiefer]

:highfive:

You will find the off campus courses are very accommodating. If you go to Stone Crest for example you can play 18 with cart for u der 30 dollars . yes it's a mile north of the villages . It overlooks the villages.
About a mile east of Brownwood there is a country course named Continential. For a little over $17 (tax ) you will find a 18 hole course once frequented by Micky Mantle (his club was stuck in a tree off the 18th hole)
the day we were there the main broke and part of the fairway was roped off .
The people couldn't have been more accommodating or apologetic. The Pro drove out personally to give us a rain check. so 36 holes for 17 dollars is not too shabby.

I recently posted my comments about the Villages championship courses being the most expensive with a radius of 25 miles. You would have thought I had called Mother Theresa nasty names, I was attacked severly and one replier suggested that I should move from the Villages. Golf course conditions in the Villages are generally poorer compared to the off campus courses. I also find the Golf Administration Staff to be much less cordial and helpful than the off campus courses administrators. We recently played Harbor Hills and Ocala Gold, the pro shop people (especially the pro at Harbor Hills) at both fascilities were more polite and helpful than we usually find in the Villages. You were instantly made to feel that they were happy you came to play their course. Nice way to start a gound of golf. As to the course conditions here in the Villages, I have watched the golf maintainence people do their thing in the Villages for years. What I have observed is the Villages maintenance people seem to be only reactive to problems as they arise. One does not have to be very intelligent to know that being reactive doesn't get the job done, what is necessary, especially with golf courses, you must be proactive. This means, preventing the problem, not always having to try to cure the problem...,

[Mikeod]

As to the course conditions here in the Villages, I have watched the golf maintainence people do their thing in the Villages for years. What I have observed is the Villages maintenance people seem to be only reactive to problems as they arise. One does not have to be very intelligent to know that being reactive doesn't get the job done, what is necessary, especially with golf courses, you must be proactive. This means, preventing the problem, not always having to try to cure the problem...,
That's a good observation. I can't speak for the championship courses, but last meeting of the exec group it was announced that they have developed a ten year plan for maintenance and refurbishment of the executive courses. This should reduce the inefficiency of reacting to problems by anticipating and heading them off. I think they had enough data from years back to set up time frames for reworking turf and irrigation as well as seasonal issues that have recurred. Since most of the same people are involved with the big courses, I would hope similar plans are being prepared if not already done. The work on Tierra may indicate it has been done.

[graciegirl]

Totally agree. :BigApplause:

FORE!!!!!!!!

Getting things improved here is VERY, VERY, Very, very, very, hard to do.

Because very few things need improving.

Now if "THEY" could teach me to hit a one iron as well as I do my six, you would have my attention. If "they" could make my paints capture the beauty of Shrandell's photographs, I would listen. If "they" were someone ANY of us have met we could thank them in person for continuing to improve this place as they go along. After all, the overwhelming percentage of all of The Villages was NOT here just 12 years ago.

I think "they" do very well trying to please us all.

Not that things can't be improved, but not much comes to my mind right now.

Our courses here are used and abused by a lot of rookie golfers and the water allowed to maintain the courses is not unlimited as it was on our courses in Ohio. We also have a lot of carts with handicapped stickers allowed to run up near the greens and that is necessary but not as frequently seen as in other areas. It also is much, much, much, less expensive, and that in itself is very nice...and there is just not ONE course to cuss on. We can spoil our good walk on 12 Championship and 30? executive courses.

Sand your divots and rake the traps.

Gracie, who LOVES it here

[drcar]

Its amazing one day people slam the villages for closing TDS and The Oaks to replace the greens and to do work. The next day they slam the villages for poor conditions. AND yes the cost is less off campus, BUT it is not always better. I played Harbor Hills 3 weeks ago, AWFUL! The staff were overly nice. but the course was VERY VERY bad. We, the golfers here need to understand that are conditions are caused by several factors. Lack of water and the amount of play. We complain when the courses are closed for maintenance or complain when they aerate the fairways and green. We can not have it both ways. Also the prices and conditions are SOMETIMES better off campus because they do not get the amount of play the Village’s courses get. There were over 3 million rounds of golf played in the Villages last year. And the last time I checked the Twilght golf deal after 5 is better then anywhere esle. I am not saying it is perfect here or anyone should not state the obvious when the conditions are not up to stantards But, ranting and raving is not the way, GET on the review committes, become active.

[mickey100]

Rubicon,you hit the nail on the head. The Villages has ...an audience that for the most part doesn't care about the conditions because many know nothing else.

I agree.

[Russ_Boston]

Using this theory, how would you account for the fact that the Lopez Course was turned into exactly the opposite of what you describe for the recent LPGA Legends Tournament. Great pains were taken to grow the grass higher so the ball sits up in the fairways. Greens were about 11 on a stintmeter. The greens were soft and held shots. The course was pristine. It is now back to where it was for what I'll call resident conditions. I've played golf all over the world (yes, including Scotland) and have never seen conditions as bad as they regularly are under standard Villages Conditions. Oh, by the way, how many touring pros play here to warrant maintaining our courses in the ideal condition you describe. These courses are ideal for no one but residents, many of whom will defend how things are done whether right or wrong, a concept that many have not yet grasped. Oh yes, I've also played US Open Courses, a venue used for the Rider Cup and a course that hosted the PGA championship, a US Women,' Open venue and never observed "Resident Conditions" as I see here day in and day out..

I do think they need to let the grass grow a little higher. I think it would benefit everyone. The way it is now it actually slows play down because errant balls get into the 'rough' and keep right on rolling into trouble thus causing players to look (too long!) for their ball.

PS: It's 'RYDER' cup. Typo I'm sure.

[glencus]

FORE!!!!!!!!

Getting things improved here is VERY, VERY, Very, very, very, hard to do.

Because very few things need improving.

Now if "THEY" could teach me to hit a one iron as well as I do my six, you would have my attention. If "they" could make my paints capture the beauty of Shrandell's photographs, I would listen. If "they" were someone ANY of us have met we could thank them in person for continuing to improve this place as they go along. After all, the overwhelming percentage of all of The Villages was NOT here just 12 years ago.

I think "they" do very well trying to please us all.

Not that things can't be improved, but not much comes to my mind right now.

Our courses here are used and abused by a lot of rookie golfers and the water allowed to maintain the courses is not unlimited as it was on our courses in Ohio. We also have a lot of carts with handicapped stickers allowed to run up near the greens and that is necessary but not as frequently seen as in other areas. It also is much, much, much, less expensive, and that in itself is very nice...and there is just not ONE course to cuss on. We can spoil our good walk on 12 Championship and 30? executive courses.

Sand your divots and rake the traps.

Gracie, who LOVES it here

This Thread is not a referendum on The Villages. It's about Golf Course Conditions. Your comments in that aspect of your response are exactly the reasons given by Golf Course Administrators to get complainers off their backs. This gets to the heart of the issue that most Villagers accept these conditions because they do not know any better.

[graciegirl]

This Thread is not a referendum on The Villages. It's about Golf Course Conditions. Your comments in that aspect of your response are exactly the reasons given by Golf Course Administrators to get complainers off their backs. This gets to the heart of the issue that most Villagers accept these conditions because they do not know any better.

Thank you. I allowed a recent grievance to get the best of me. I will try to do better.

I have played a few courses here and about in my 40 some years of golfing. All I can say is the price is right and it is pretty amazing and wonderful to take your golf cart to all these halfway nice courses as you grow older and your game decays and it is nice to keep your greenbacks in the bank too for when they might need to take care of you 'round the clock.

It isn't golf as many of us knew it and it isn't like back home in many of the clubs some of us belonged to where they would upgrade the course and dock you thousands of dollars on top of the thousand dollar a month membership fee and the monthly restaurant charge even if you didn't eat and the cart fee and and playing with the same group all of the time, some of whom were unbearable. This was after some folks paid upwards of 50K to join, after being checked out thoroughly. Where everyone you knew also knew your handicap and where there was a dandy locker room and the clubs were on the cart waiting when you drove up... BUT....we still can go off campus and sojourn out to Pebble Beach, it too is a municipal course and we can pay them close to 600 bucks to play a round. The deer and the wind and the vistas are magnificent, the greens are like velvet and the rough is to be avoided and the fairways look like top grade Bigelow carpet. It is surrounded by some wonderful homes on 17 mile drive that are "point" houses and some of them are very not kept up but although windy there in Carmel it isn't freezing cold wind like at St. Andrews and well you know....

What do I know? I am told I am a shill for the developers.

I think I'm mad.

[nitehawk]

This Thread is not a referendum on The Villages. It's about Golf Course Conditions. Your comments in that aspect of your response are exactly the reasons given by Golf Course Administrators to get complainers off their backs. This gets to the heart of the issue that most Villagers accept these conditions because they do not know any better.

:BigApplause: Please do not drink the kool aid :bigbow:

[Mikeod]

Today's Villages Voice had some figures that I find interesting. Last year there were 836,218 rounds of golf played on the championship courses. So, we are approaching 90,000 rounds on each course. ( I adjusted for Palmer since it gets significantly less play due to the higher fees I imagine. Could also be a factor in the condition as well.)

So, how does that volume compare to the volume on some of these outside courses people are promoting?

[mulligan]

Also, as far as mowing the fairways and rough, since they use dwarf bentgrass, probably only the weeds would get taller.

[Mikeod]

Also, as far as mowing the fairways and rough, since they use dwarf bentgrass, probably only the weeds would get taller.

Fairways appear to be hybrid bermuda, probably tifway or Tifway II. I doubt they would use a dwarf strain on fairways because of the cart traffic.

[djl8412]

:confused:Let's see now: we've had inadequate rainfall but one of the most advanced irrigation systems able to transfer water to and from retention ponds to compensate but still have increasing poor course conditions. Yesterday, Bonifay became cart path only late in the afternoon because of standing water on many parts of the course. It couldn't handle a half-inch of rain in a 2-hour period. AMAZING!:shrug:

[mickey100]

FORE!!!!!!!!

Getting things improved here is VERY, VERY, Very, very, very, hard to do.

Because very few things need improving....
Our courses here are used and abused by a lot of rookie golfers and the water allowed to maintain the courses is not unlimited as it was on our courses in Ohio. We also have a lot of carts with handicapped stickers allowed to run up near the greens and that is necessary but not as frequently seen as in other areas. It also is much, much, much, less expensive, and that in itself is very nice...and there is just not ONE course to cuss on. We can spoil our good walk on 12 Championship and 30? executive courses.

Sand your divots and rake the traps.

Gracie, who LOVES it here

First of all, golf is not less less less expensive here than it was for me in New York state. And your comment about 12 "championship" courses is a moot point. What good is having all the courses if they are in poor condition? Our course up north had reciprocals with other clubs so we could play them for free, or just a cart fee. And the courses were much nicer than these down here, at approximately the same price. And as much as you might love the opportunity to take your own golf cart onto the golf course, don't forget you are paying for the cart and its maintenance, to do so.

[Mikeod]

:confused:Let's see now: we've had inadequate rainfall but one of the most advanced irrigation systems able to transfer water to and from retention ponds to compensate but still have increasing poor course conditions. Yesterday, Bonifay became cart path only late in the afternoon because of standing water on many parts of the course. It couldn't handle a half-inch of rain in a 2-hour period. AMAZING!:shrug:

Not sure why you would be amazed. The dry, compacted ground will not soak up water like a sponge. That's how flash floods happen in the southwest deserts. This is not like the organic, rich soil you may find in a temperate climate. Last summer I played World Woods after a similar storm and there were places where water filled the sand traps and onto parts of the fairway even a day later. And that's one of the most highly rated courses in FL and has a fairly sandy base. It's not unusual.

[graciegirl]

First of all, golf is not less less less expensive here than it was for me in New York state. And your comment about 12 "championship" courses is a moot point. What good is having all the courses if they are in poor condition? Our course up north had reciprocals with other clubs so we could play them for free, or just a cart fee. And the courses were much nicer than these down here, at approximately the same price. And as much as you might love the opportunity to take your own golf cart onto the golf course, don't forget you are paying for the cart and its maintenance, to do so.

The climate up north is different and if those courses had the traffic these courses have and the water restrictions, well things would be different. Different grass, different heat, different traffic. The prices here are reasonable. Not cheap and not expensive and I think that having all of these choices within a golf cart ride means something. The game of golf is played against one's best game and one does not have to have a course in perfect condition to enjoy it. Things could always be better and they also could be one h*** of a lot worse too.

[djl8412]

Not sure why you would be amazed. The dry, compacted ground will not soak up water like a sponge. That's how flash floods happen in the southwest deserts. This is not like the organic, rich soil you may find in a temperate climate. Last summer I played World Woods after a similar storm and there were places where water filled the sand traps and onto parts of the fairway even a day later. And that's one of the most highly rated courses in FL and has a fairly sandy base. It's not unusual.

:blahblahblah: So why is the ground allowed to get so dry and compacted in the first place? Remember now: we supposedly have one of the most advanced irrigation systems in FL and these current conditions were not as common here in earlier years.barf

[glencus]

:blahblahblah: So why is the ground allowed to get so dry and compacted in the first place? Remember now: we supposedly have one of the most advanced irrigation systems in FL and these current conditions were not as common here in earlier years.barf

The ground is so dry because they build the courses on the cheap. They don't build greens, they just flatten the dirt. And contrary to your concept, these course, those that were here years ago, were just as bad. How do you like conditions at the Oaks, which will probably be no better after the surgical repairs they are now touting. TDS, real soft and will be just as "soft" after a summer vacation. Oh, as for the advanced irrigation system, what good is it if you don't put enough water on the courses. Been here long enough to know that nothing is going to change. Why spend money when residents are content with poor conditions. Will keep playing here as this is where I've made my bed. Don't have to like it however.

[graciegirl]

The ground is so dry because they build the courses on the cheap. They don't build greens, they just flatten the dirt. And contrary to your concept, these course, those that were here years ago, were just as bad. How do you like conditions at the Oaks, which will probably be no better after the surgical repairs they are now touting. TDS, real soft and will be just as "soft" after a summer vacation. Oh, as for the advanced irrigation system, what good is it if you don't put enough water on the courses. Been here long enough to know that nothing is going to change. Why spend money when residents are content with poor conditions. Will keep playing here as this is where I've made my bed. Don't have to like it however.


Noted.

[Mikeod]

:blahblahblah: So why is the ground allowed to get so dry and compacted in the first place? Remember now: we supposedly have one of the most advanced irrigation systems in FL and these current conditions were not as common here in earlier years.barf
Here is how they "allowed" the ground to get so hard. In case it's not clear, what I have posted is the actual rainfall for each month from January through May for 2006-2013. At the bottom is the historical average rainfall for those months. I quick look at the +/- number beside each month's rainfall shows that only one month in that period had more than average rainfall, and one month matched average. Every other month had a deficit. For the years shown, the average monthly deficit ranged from a low of 1.36 to a high of 3.04 inches. So, we've had below average rainfall in the months leading up to the hurricane season each year for the last 8 years. I don't care how advanced your irrigation system is, it cannot manufacture rainfall. Without rain, grass won't grow.

Now guess what the average number of rounds played on TV courses during those years did. Yup, it grew. So more rounds, more carts driving down the fairways, and less rain. Great for grass growing, NOT.

Disclaimer: I am not now, nor have ever been, an employee of golf administration or any of the maintenance contractors at TV.

[Mikeod]

The ground is so dry because they build the courses on the cheap. They don't build greens, they just flatten the dirt. And contrary to your concept, these course, those that were here years ago, were just as bad. How do you like conditions at the Oaks, which will probably be no better after the surgical repairs they are now touting. TDS, real soft and will be just as "soft" after a summer vacation. Oh, as for the advanced irrigation system, what good is it if you don't put enough water on the courses. Been here long enough to know that nothing is going to change. Why spend money when residents are content with poor conditions. Will keep playing here as this is where I've made my bed. Don't have to like it however.
Please refer to my post on the rainfall deficit over the last 8 years.

The rest of your post regarding course construction is so ludicrous it destroys any credence your argument may otherwise possess.

And it must be nice to be psychic and know in advance how course renovation will turn out. What are the numbers for the next Powerball? :D

[gomoho]

The ground is so dry because they build the courses on the cheap. They don't build greens, they just flatten the dirt. And contrary to your concept, these course, those that were here years ago, were just as bad. How do you like conditions at the Oaks, which will probably be no better after the surgical repairs they are now touting. TDS, real soft and will be just as "soft" after a summer vacation. Oh, as for the advanced irrigation system, what good is it if you don't put enough water on the courses. Been here long enough to know that nothing is going to change. Why spend money when residents are content with poor conditions. Will keep playing here as this is where I've made my bed. Don't have to like it however.

Wow - I wouldn't want to spend my retirement thinking "I've made my bed, not I have to lie in it". Houses sell like hotcakes here - .

[waynet]

I thought the golf powers had a real good opportunity to try the newer grasses at Tieera Del Sol or the next new 27 hole complex. It seems all agree its all about the water. If there are new strains of grasses that use far less water why not use them? I don't get it. More people,more carts,more rounds, less water but lets use the same grasses and methods anyhow. What sense does that make?

[glencus]

Please refer to my post on the rainfall deficit over the last 8 years.

The rest of your post regarding course construction is so ludicrous it destroys any credence your argument may otherwise possess.

And it must be nice to be psychic and know in advance how course renovation will turn out. What are the numbers for the next Powerball? :D

Oh, so the lack of rainfall at all very well conditioned courses up and down the road outside TV is also the reason they are maintained in much better condition?

[glencus]

Wow - I wouldn't want to spend my retirement thinking "I've made my bed, not I have to lie in it". Houses sell like hotcakes here - .

Very astute comment. Right on the subject of golf course conditions.

[mickey100]

Very astute comment. Right on the subject of golf course conditions.

I agree. I am really sick of that type of comment, not just in this thread, but others as well.

[mickey100]

The climate up north is different and if those courses had the traffic these courses have and the water restrictions, well things would be different. Different grass, different heat, different traffic. The prices here are reasonable. Not cheap and not expensive and I think that having all of these choices within a golf cart ride means something. The game of golf is played against one's best game and one does not have to have a course in perfect condition to enjoy it. Things could always be better and they also could be one h*** of a lot worse too.

You have no idea what the course were up north that I played nor the traffic they experienced. There have been drought conditions up north as well as down south. We can play golf at areas surrounding The Villages for the same $$ or less, and have better conditions. And as far as conditions being a lot worse, have you played Cane Garden in the past few weeks? It is nice to be able to bring our own golf carts - but we PAY for that in maintenance, price of electric or gas fuel, and wear and tear on the carts. You have to take that into consideration when calculating total golf costs.

On the plus side, I think there has been progress made on the condition of the Executive courses. They really do seem better overall than they used to be a few years ago. I'd love to see a resident's committee review or have input on championship course conditions. And, IMHO, there needs to be better communication regarding conditions. The blurb on golfthevillages.com about Mallory and Glenview was helpful. It would have been nice if they posted something similar about Tierra, for example, to explain why the course was being closed and exactly what improvements they were making.

[gomoho]

Very astute comment. Right on the subject of golf course conditions.

Sorry, but it's your bed not mine and I've got no complaints.

[senior citizen]

The Nancy Lopez course was a beautiful emerald green when we were there........
Everything , including golf courses looked green that October and November......
That was in Marion County, in the northwest quadrant of The Villages.
The quiet, non busy area.....no crowds at the supermarket, etc.

Didn't realize Florida has had such a draught thereafter?

I've seen really brown looking golf courses when looking at other 55+ retirement communities both directly above TV and directly below TV......

Also, besides the brown looking golf courses, noticed also that they are not really close to major shopping (such as food, various products, services, etc.); whereas TV does have so many needed services close by.

[Russ_Boston]

Mike,

Where did you get these numbers? I was renting a home on Bailey Trail in May of 2009. We had over 10 inches of rain in 4 days with lots of flooded areas and all the golf course sprinklers had to be turned on 24/7 for a couple of days. So I at least know that the May 2009 total you posted is incorrect. Are these numbers your own?

I don't reject your premise but remember that the local area has hundreds of golf courses and we all receive about the same rainfall.

[dillywho]

Could it be that "other" courses have only one (1) course to maintain instead of the many that are here? Not all maintenance crews are the same, either. Most of them are paid very well and are well trained at others. Don't know about here. The CC's back home were also closed down one day a week, too.

These courses are also played year-round, not just the summer months. That could also make a significant difference.

Dunno. Just thinking.:mornincoffee:

[Mikeod]

Mike,

Where did you get these numbers? I was renting a home on Bailey Trail in May of 2009. We had over 10 inches of rain in 4 days with lots of flooded areas and all the golf course sprinklers had to be turned on 24/7 for a couple of days. So I at least know that the May 2009 total you posted is incorrect. Are these numbers your own?

I don't reject your premise but remember that the local area has hundreds of golf courses and we all receive about the same rainfall.

Russ,
That's true. Was that TS Fay? I got the figures from a search for historic weather data for TV. The site for the actual rainfall was weather-warehouse dot com. The source for the average rainfall per month was from weather dot com I believe.

Makes me wonder if a decimal point was misplaced on the site. I have rechecked the site and I transposed the figures correctly to my spreadsheet.

Carl Loper at WVLG made the same comment about all of TV receiving about the same rainfall, but there are times when it comes down in buckets in Spanish Springs and the sun is shining at Lake Sumter. But I guess it all evens out.

Thanks.

[djl8412]

Very astute comment. Right on the subject of golf course conditions.

:wave: Thank you! So many other posts seem to be ignoring that and other crucial points. So many nearby courses have better rates and better conditions which is why we golf off base in winter months. Water management for the courses in TV is incompetent. No matter how many times people defend the system of running irrigation systems around the clock to prevent flooding in times of heavy rainfall it still adds up to nonsense. Three weeks after heavy rain and constant irrigation discharge you'll see how low the ponds are and needed irrigation has to be cut back. We've seen courses get in great shape for a special event. After the event it's back to deteriorating conditions. The Palmer course along Buena Vista is well maintained for the sake of visibility by those considering a move here. If many choose to accept and defend substandard conditions that's fine with me. I choose to seek management that is sincere in making conditions better.:wave:

[waynet]

djl,I couldn't agree more. It just seems that the powers to be don't care. Excuse after excuse.

[graciegirl]

You have no idea what the course were up north that I played nor the traffic they experienced. There have been drought conditions up north as well as down south. We can play golf at areas surrounding The Villages for the same $$ or less, and have better conditions. And as far as conditions being a lot worse, have you played Cane Garden in the past few weeks? It is nice to be able to bring our own golf carts - but we PAY for that in maintenance, price of electric or gas fuel, and wear and tear on the carts. You have to take that into consideration when calculating total golf costs.

On the plus side, I think there has been progress made on the condition of the Executive courses. They really do seem better overall than they used to be a few years ago. I'd love to see a resident's committee review or have input on championship course conditions. And, IMHO, there needs to be better communication regarding conditions. The blurb on golfthevillages.com about Mallory and Glenview was helpful. It would have been nice if they posted something similar about Tierra, for example, to explain why the course was being closed and exactly what improvements they were making.

.........................

[nitehawk]

New --- excuse -- too much rain in too short a time ---

[PaPaLarry]

Maybe it would be nice, if we could get Maintenance to get on Talk of The Villages, and explain to us the problems (or not so many problems) about our golf courses. I to see some problems with some courses (championship) but also see some nice conditioned courses also. I guess water can be one problem. I'm told, that cart wheels can bring diseases to grasses, just like the lawn people bring them to our lawns. Hopefully everything will work out, and we can give praise to our maintenance people for doing such a good job!! Hopefully that's the case. Does anyone know how much it costs (about) to replace the greens at Tierra Del Sol? Per Green?

[lthompson]

Has anyone played Harbor Hills Country Club in Lady Lake FL lately
Can anyone tell me a golf course, 18 holes outside The Villages, that the fairmways and all are in good shape right now?

Thanks

Vegas girl

[deltaguy]

Has anyone played Harbor Hills Country Club in Lady Lake FL lately
Can anyone tell me a golf course, 18 holes outside The Villages, that the fairmways and all are in good shape right now?

Thanks

Vegas girl

Mission Inn -both courses. Ocala National Golf Club - Excellent as of last week.

[ilvgolf]

Has anyone played Harbor Hills Country Club in Lady Lake FL lately
Can anyone tell me a golf course, 18 holes outside The Villages, that the fairmways and all are in good shape right now?

Thanks

Vegas girl

I played that course about a month ago and was extremely dissappointed in its condition. It used to always be in pristine condition don't know what has happened there.

[kaydee]

Played Fox Run @ Glenview yesterday & found it to be in great shape.

[fred53]

Maybe it would be nice, if we could get Maintenance to get on Talk of The Villages, and explain to us the problems (or not so many problems) about our golf courses. I to see some problems with some courses (championship) but also see some nice conditioned courses also. I guess water can be one problem. I'm told, that cart wheels can bring diseases to grasses, just like the lawn people bring them to our lawns. Hopefully everything will work out, and we can give praise to our maintenance people for doing such a good job!! Hopefully that's the case. Does anyone know how much it costs (about) to replace the greens at Tierra Del Sol? Per Green?

You can quite easily google your question and with a minimum of reading determine a ball park figure to completely replace a green. It will include labor of course and the type of see can very from inexpensive to over $100/lb. for seeds that are genetically modified to suit the conditions of the area. It's not like sodding a lawn.

[Russ_Boston]

Mission Inn -both courses. Ocala National Golf Club - Excellent as of last week.

You found Los Colinas nine excellent? Must have come a long, long way in the last 6 weeks. Ocala is almost always in great shape, at least when I've played it or from friend's reports.

[OscarOlden]

I played Glenview yesterday and it was great.

[deltaguy]

You found Los Colinas nine excellent? Must have come a long, long way in the last 6 weeks. Ocala is almost always in great shape, at least when I've played it or from friend's reports.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say about timing. Played Las Colinas on July 29th and it was in great condition. Greens had been aerated about 3 weeks earlier and were smooth and true. Ball sat up in fairways. By the way, Las Colinas is an 18 hole course, not 9. Are you sure we are talking about the same golf course?

[Russ_Boston]

Not quite sure what you are trying to say about timing. Played Las Colinas on July 29th and it was in great condition. Greens had been aerated about 3 weeks earlier and were smooth and true. Ball sat up in fairways. By the way, Las Colinas is an 18 hole course, not 9. Are you sure we are talking about the same golf course?

Not sure why I said 9 - my bad. I don't mind the greens but the ball just sails when it hits the fairway and the rough isn't rough enough to hold anything - all somewhat errant balls end up in or near the tree line. Maybe I'm just not a fan of that course. Played there 3 times without any success. Don't seem to have that problem at other courses. I don't like courses where the rough consists of a lot of hard pan thin areas (doesn't catch my bad shots:))

[Teeitup]

We played Orange Blossom Hills (back 9) yesterday for the first time.

Pretty sad is all I can say.