Golf Course Mowing?

[Thnonne]

Can someone tell me why they continue to mow the golf courses when they have very little grass, bare spots and are hardpan. Wouldn't it be better to let the grass grow to a reasonable height so you are not hitting off hardpan and can get under the ball. Also, wouldn't the grass have a better chance to fill in the bare spots if it is not cut so short it can't spread. I have never heard any village golfers talk about the lush grass on villages courses. All I have heard is golfers complain about the lack of grass and the hardpan conditions.

[Mikeod]

Can someone tell me why they continue to mow the golf courses when they have very little grass, bare spots and are hardpan. Wouldn't it be better to let the grass grow to a reasonable height so you are not hitting off hardpan and can get under the ball. Also, wouldn't the grass have a better chance to fill in the bare spots if it is not cut so short it can't spread. I have never heard any village golfers talk about the lush grass on villages courses. All I have heard is golfers complain about the lack of grass and the hardpan conditions.

Bermuda grass will spread better when cut short. If you let it grow, it will not create what you are looking for. It will get taller, but your ball will sink to ground level. When bermuda has a chance to mature, it will create a great surface for golf. Unfortunately, the newer courses have not had time or conditions to reach that level. Typically, the older the course in TV the better the condition of the fairways.

[kimball]

Bermuda grass will spread better when cut short. If you let it grow, it will not create what you are looking for. It will get taller, but your ball will sink to ground level. When bermuda has a chance to mature, it will create a great surface for golf. Unfortunately, the newer courses have not had time or conditions to reach that level. Typically, the older the course in TV the better the condition of the fairways.

Been here 20+ years which according to this theory should be enough time. Fact is the fairways are always cut to short. Only time I've ever seen it done right was when I played Lopez a few days before the recent LPGA Legends Tournament. Even that's now reverted to pre tournament levels. Played yesterday at Cane Garden where this theory is clearly refuted as the grass never spreads to the numerous bare spots all over the fairways.

[ROCKETMAN]

Been here 20+ years which according to this theory should be enough time. Fact is the fairways are always cut to short. Only time I've ever seen it done right was when I played Lopez a few days before the recent LPGA Legends Tournament. Even that's now reverted to pre tournament levels. Played yesterday at Cane Garden where this theory is clearly refuted as the grass never spreads to the numerous bare spots all over the fairways.

I agree with you on all points, I posted i played palmer monday and it was lush. and green with nice grass in the rough. Was told to have patience that we are between growing seasons with different grasses but i still beleive it comes down to how much each course is willing to spend on and water. i think hacienda and cane have been here long enough to mature. I'm not saying they must all spend what palmer does, but there could be a happy medium.

[jimmy D]

I agree that the rough should not be mowed but maybe every 2 weeks depending on water or rain. I have played many rounds of Golf in my life and when you look at the big picture the courses here are in bad shape.

The only thing that is properly taken care of are the sand bunkers (who need that??) The greens need to be longer not shorter in the summer. we do not need 11 on the stimpmeter, 9 or 8 would be fine. biggest peave yet. even chip shots leave marks fix them please

[Mikeod]

Been here 20+ years which according to this theory should be enough time. Fact is the fairways are always cut to short. Only time I've ever seen it done right was when I played Lopez a few days before the recent LPGA Legends Tournament. Even that's now reverted to pre tournament levels. Played yesterday at Cane Garden where this theory is clearly refuted as the grass never spreads to the numerous bare spots all over the fairways.
I would be very interested in the source of your information that cutting bermuda close is a theory and not advised. It appears to contradict all the information I have on turf management. Thanks.

[kimball]

I would be very interested in the source of your information that cutting bermuda close is a theory and not advised. It appears to contradict all the information I have on turf management. Thanks.

I know nothing about turf management. I depend totally on my 50 years experience as a golfer. The condition of the courses here sucks!

[Mikeod]

[QUOTE=kimball;688101]I know nothing about turf management. /QUOTE]

Well, at least we agree on something! :D

[glencus]

[QUOTE=kimball;688101]I know nothing about turf management. /QUOTE]

Well, at least we agree on something! :D

You and Kimball probably also agree that you have totally different views about what golf course conditions should be like. He describes what's wrong with them while you look for excuses to explain why they are bad. Bottom line of both sides of the debate is therefore, the conditions are bad.

[Mikeod]

[quote=mikeod;688124]

You and Kimball probably also agree that you have totally different views about what golf course conditions should be like. He describes what's wrong with them while you look for excuses to explain why they are bad. Bottom line of both sides of the debate is therefore, the conditions are bad.

Not excuses, reasons. The purpose of my responses is to counteract the hysterical, irrational comments such as "ignorant" and "cheapskate". And to point out that there are factors beyond the control of those that are responsible for course conditions. I play these courses and realize their condition could be vastly improved. They will never be like private clubs I've played elsewhere and I can't expect them to be. They are designed for a population of retirees whose experience with golf varies tremendously. They are subject to high volumes of cart traffic day in and day out. They are opened before they have a chance to mature simply to provide play to new neighborhoods.

There are comments in these threads about how the exec courses are looking better. Consider that a lot of real beginner golfers are directed by comments here to use those courses as they begin playing. And consider that the resident exec golf committee has been working with golf administration and maintenance for years to improve the quality of the courses. Successfully, I might add.

So, I feel that ranting on a message board, or calling and emailing nasty comments to golf administration is assuredly not going to improve conditions at all. Rather I would expect that approaching them with a "What can WE do together to improved these courses" attitude would reap rewards.

[mulligan]

I'm with you, Mike !! The other common statement about not using the apparently abundant water in the retention areas needs to be dispelled. The courses are watered with a combination of water treatment plant discharge and well water. The water in the retention areas is used to irrigate homeowner's lawns. It is a combination of golf course runoff and stormwater runoff. All irrigation is subject to the water restrictions put forth by the appropriate agencies, such as SWFWMD.

[Russ_Boston]

Maybe I just don't understand the word 'rough'. It seems to me that our summer rough is actually lower in height, or at least the same height as the fairway. I've never seen that anywhere except TV. I don't mind tight lies but I think we should have grass. I'll be interested to see with the summer rains (had over 2 inches everywhere in TV yesterday) how the grass responds. I think the conditions go beyond rainfall or overcrowding.

In the summer we don't get full course loads and we get plenty of rain. The greens are very nice in the summer but I have NEVER seen the rough be rough or the fairways be lush in TV (except 3 weeks ago at the LOPEX event). So they can do it. (I do play many courses outside of TV as well so I have some clue. But some are also the same condition, not all are better).

[Russ_Boston]

If you let it grow, it will not create what you are looking for.

I think that's the beauty of Bermuda grass. I've played numerous local courses in Central FL that have actual rough. Sometimes you get a lie on the top of the Bermuda and sometimes it sinks down. It's supposed to be a 1/2 shot penalty to hit into the rough. Unless I'm in a hazard in TV I'm almost always on a relatively tight lie even in the 'rough'. I think it is by design and I've been told it's for pace of play. I think looking for your ball as it bounds away from the hard pan rough is the actual cause of most pace issues. But that's just me - I don't think it will ever change in TV. But I still enjoy our golf around here. I just think it could be better with a different style of golf course management thinking.

[Thnonne]

PBermuda grass will spread better when cut short. If you let it grow, it will not create what you are looking for. It will get taller, but your ball will sink to ground level. When bermuda has a chance to mature, it will create a great surface for golf. Unfortunately, the newer courses have not had time or conditions to reach that level. Typically, the older the course in TV the better the condition of the fairways.

I don't understand your explanation. "If bermuda is cut short it spreads better," yet they cut it short and the bare spots remain. "If you let it mature it creates a great surface," but if you keep cutting it short can it mature? Please explain.

[Mikeod]

P

I don't understand your explanation. "If bermuda is cut short it spreads better," yet they cut it short and the bare spots remain. "If you let it mature it creates a great surface," but if you keep cutting it short can it mature? Please explain.

Sure. Maturing means the grass has a chance to develop a deep root system and a dense top growth. The deep root system allows it to survive on less water, and the dense top growth provides the cushioned surface to get down and through the shot. In one of these threads I mentioned a private course in San Diego that was tied to a housing development. They opened the course very soon after it was completed and the bermuda fairways soon were hard pan. They finally had to rope off half of every fairway and lay down inches of new topsoil a bit at a time so the bermuda could grow up through it. When that was complete, they did the same on the other half. But those members had to deal with half fairways for over a year.

Cutting bermuda short promotes the side growth that should fill in bare spots, but the presence of cart traffic every day, seven days a week, hinders that growth. It's a balancing act. Do you close the course for a couple of months to give the fairways a chance (or strictly enforce cart path only which has ramifications for a good number of residents), or do you keep access high by keeping the course open? Answers to that dilemma obviously depend on where you live in TV and where you like to play.

[glencus]

Sure. Maturing means the grass has a chance to develop a deep root system and a dense top growth. The deep root system allows it to survive on less water, and the dense top growth provides the cushioned surface to get down and through the shot. In one of these threads I mentioned a private course in San Diego that was tied to a housing development. They opened the course very soon after it was completed and the bermuda fairways soon were hard pan. They finally had to rope off half of every fairway and lay down inches of new topsoil a bit at a time so the bermuda could grow up through it. When that was complete, they did the same on the other half. But those members had to deal with half fairways for over a year.

Cutting bermuda short promotes the side growth that should fill in bare spots, but the presence of cart traffic every day, seven days a week, hinders that growth. It's a balancing act. Do you close the course for a couple of months to give the fairways a chance (or strictly enforce cart path only which has ramifications for a good number of residents), or do you keep access high by keeping the course open? Answers to that dilemma obviously depend on where you live in TV and where you like to play.

Wow! I'm beginning to understand. If you cut it very short every day of the week for 52 weeks each year it will surely grow up to be full and plush. As I've been waiting about 20 years to see that happen I'm beginning to wonder just how long this theory will take before results begin to show. By the way, when I first came to TV circa 1992 The Bermuda rough at the few courses we had was lush and green and the ball would either sit on top of it or go straight down to the point it was very difficult to get a club on it. Sometime later on they must have started with your cut it short concept and it's been just awful ever since.

[Mikeod]

Can someone tell me why they continue to mow the golf courses when they have very little grass, bare spots and are hardpan. Wouldn't it be better to let the grass grow to a reasonable height so you are not hitting off hardpan and can get under the ball. Also, wouldn't the grass have a better chance to fill in the bare spots if it is not cut so short it can't spread. I have never heard any village golfers talk about the lush grass on villages courses. All I have heard is golfers complain about the lack of grass and the hardpan conditions.

Glencus. I have quoted the original post on this thread. Please re-read that post and you will see that the question was primarily about mowing the fairways. My responses have been directed toward that question. No superintendent mows the fairways every day and nowhere did I say that it should be mowed short every day to encourage it to spread. What you describe about the rough is correct. Bermuda rough at the proper height will result in varying lies. Some will sit up on top, but most will sink to the bottom. Those that sink to the bottom will be difficult to extract. I suspect those that say that mowing the rough to near fairway height was done to reduce time looking for errant shots are probably correct.

It appears my efforts to provide some insight into maintaining a golf course in the south during periods of reduced rain and during periods of intense use are failing miserably against the posts of those who "know" the maintenance people and golf administration are incompetent and uncaring.

I have no more to add to this thread. Enjoy your time wherever you play.

[Mikeod]

[quote=mikeod;688124]

You and Kimball probably also agree that you have totally different views about what golf course conditions should be like. He describes what's wrong with them while you look for excuses to explain why they are bad. Bottom line of both sides of the debate is therefore, the conditions are bad.

Actually, no, we probably don't have totally different views about golf course conditions. What I have tried to do is provide some insight into what it takes to maintain turfgrass in this environment. And perhaps provide a balancing viewpoint because I am aware of the difficulty in growing turf when it is used daily under conditions that work against it thriving. And provide an example of what can be accomplished by working with maintenance and administration as we do with the executive courses, which are showing improvement. But it appears people would rather rant and rave and point fingers. Fine. Enjoy.

[ajdeck]

Glencus. I have quoted the original post on this thread. Please re-read that post and you will see that the question was primarily about mowing the fairways. My responses have been directed toward that question. No superintendent mows the fairways every day and nowhere did I say that it should be mowed short every day to encourage it to spread. What you describe about the rough is correct. Bermuda rough at the proper height will result in varying lies. Some will sit up on top, but most will sink to the bottom. Those that sink to the bottom will be difficult to extract. I suspect those that say that mowing the rough to near fairway height was done to reduce time looking for errant shots are probably correct.

It appears my efforts to provide some insight into maintaining a golf course in the south during periods of reduced rain and during periods of intense use are failing miserably against the posts of those who "know" the maintenance people and golf administration are incompetent and uncaring.

I have no more to add to this thread. Enjoy your time wherever you play.



Amen and thanks for trying to explain...

[rhood]

Y'all are just too serious. Just go and hit the ball and have a good time. I don't care about hardpan or bare spots or rough. I can't hit well off any of these, but I still enjoy golf. I don't blame my poor play on course conditions. Quit whining.

[Russ_Boston]

Y'all are just too serious. Just go and hit the ball and have a good time. I don't care about hardpan or bare spots or rough. I can't hit well off any of these, but I still enjoy golf. I don't blame my poor play on course conditions. Quit whining.

Don't think you get the point. No one is whining in my opinion. We all say that we love TV but feel some conditions could be improved. I don't like slow play and my opinion is that the lack of decent rough helps contribute to slow play. I have expressed my opinions to the people at the course but I probably haven't found the right person yet. Discussion never hurt anyone.