Zimmerman - did the system work?

[NJblue]

I see a lot of posts saying that they were relieved and that the system worked. Did it? I happen to agree with what Mark O'Mara said last night: two aspects of the sysytem failed George Zimmerman. First, the media failed in its responsibility to objectively report the news and instead was used as a powerful tool of the professional rable rousers like Al Sharpton. I must admit, I too fell for this initially. I saw the distorted, one-sided reports and was convinced that Zimmerman had preyed on an innocent teenager.

Secondly, and most importantly, the legal system failed George Zimmerman. I'm sure he felt like he didn't do anything wrong and that the system would work and never press charges against him. Little did he know that our legal system no longer works like the blindfolded symbol that is used to portray it. He didn't realize that when politics get involved and people like Angela Corey get involved, your rights are thrown away and power of the state can marshalled against you with no attempt of giving you any benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, the system did work - but only after successfully destroying a person whose primary motivation was nothing more than helping keep his neighborhood safe.

[Bucco]

Stand by...the "system" is not done by a long shot....

"On Sunday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) asked for the Justice Department to prosecute George Zimmerman, who was acquitted Saturday night in the killing of Trayvon Martin. “I think the Justice Department is going to take a look at this,” Reid told NBC’s Meet the Press. “This isn’t over with and I think that’s good. That’s our system, it’s gotten better, not worse.”

Reid on Zimmerman: 'This Isn't Over With' (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/07/14/Reid-Zimmerman-not-over)

"The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) has called on the Obama administration to pursue civil rights charges against George Zimmerman.

The NAACP also tweeted out a petition urging the Justice Department to “open a civil rights case against George Zimmerman.”

“Attorney General Eric Holder,” the petition reads, “The Department of Justice has closely monitored the State of Florida’s prosecution of the case against George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin murder since it began. Today, with the acquittal of George Zimmerman, it is time for the Department of Justice to act.”

“The most fundamental of civil rights — the right to life — was violated the night George Zimmerman stalked and then took the life of Trayvon Martin,” the NAACP wrote. “We ask that the Department of Justice file civil rights charges against Mr. Zimmerman for this egregious violation.”

“Please address the travesties of the tragic death of Trayvon Martin by acting today,” the NAACP wrote.

The head of the NAACP and Attorney General Eric Holder have both expressed their admiration for one another.

Read more: NAACP pursues civil rights charges against Zimmerman | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/13/naacp-calls-on-obama-admin-to-pursue-civil-rights-charges-against-zimmerman/#ixzz2Z2oTgFC9)

""Well, I think that this is an atrocity," said Sharpton. "I think that it is probably one of the worst situations that I've seen. What this jury has done is establish a precedent that when you are young and fit a certain profile, you can be committing no crime, just bringing some Skittles and iced tea home to your brother, and be killed and someone can claim self-defense having been exposed with all kinds of lies, all kinds of inconsistencies. ... Even at trial when he is exposed over and over again as a liar, he is acquitted. This is a sad day in the country. I think that we clearly must move on to the next step in terms of the federal government and in terms of the civil courts. Clearly, we want people to be disciplined, strategic. But this is a slap in the face to those that believe in justice in this country."

Sharpton: 'Slap in the Face to Those Who Believe in Justice in This Country' | The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/sharpton-slap-face-those-who-believe-justice-country_739351.html)

[manaboutown]

I see a lot of posts saying that they were relieved and that the system worked. Did it? I happen to agree with what Mark O'Mara said last night: two aspects of the sysytem failed George Zimmerman. First, the media failed in its responsibility to objectively report the news and instead was used as a powerful tool of the professional rable rousers like Al Sharpton. I must admit, I too fell for this initially. I saw the distorted, one-sided reports and was convinced that Zimmerman had preyed on an innocent teenager.

Secondly, and most importantly, the legal system failed George Zimmerman. I'm sure he felt like he didn't do anything wrong and that the system would work and never press charges against him. Little did he know that our legal system no longer works like the blindfolded symbol that is used to portray it. He didn't realize that when politics get involved and people like Angela Corey get involved, your rights are thrown away and power of the state can marshalled against you with no attempt of giving you any benefit of the doubt.


Ultimately, the system did work - but only after successfully destroying a person whose primary motivation was nothing more than helping keep his neighborhood safe.

:agree:

And again, we taxpayers paid for the circus. This never should have gone to trial, all those people fired and so on ad nauseam.

and that judge! http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/071213-663605-biased-judge-had-it-in-for-zimmerman.htm

[Challenger]

All the noise about this case doesn't change the primary reason for GZs acquittal. It was " reasonable doubt" The jurors voted unanimously and each side was well represented. No one knows what was in the hearts of the combatants, but after hearing the evidence "reasonable doubt" remained. I for one am happy that this standard takes precedence in our judicial process.

[Bucco]

All the noise about this case doesn't change the primary reason for GZs acquittal. It was " reasonable doubt" The jurors voted unanimously and each side was well represented. No one knows what was in the hearts of the combatants, but after hearing the evidence "reasonable doubt" remained. I for one am happy that this standard takes precedence in our judicial process.

So the police seemed to be on the right track until they were cut off in their investigation by POLITICS.

Let us see now how POLITICS gets involved as it already has begun.

[ijusluvit]

I respectfully disagree with the OP and the poster who agrees with NJBlue. To me the decision to engage in violent confrontation carries a heavy responsibility, especially if the party making the decision is armed. Mr. Zimmerman made the decision to initiate that confrontation, without being forced, or having the jurisdiction to do so, and in fact being told not to do so.

And let's leave race out of the incident, even though there is evidence of how Mr. Zimmerman felt about young blacks in the neighborhood, and what might have motivated him to continue into that confrontation.

[NJblue]

I respectfully disagree with the OP and the poster who agrees with NJBlue. To me the decision to engage in violent confrontation carries a heavy responsibility, especially if the party making the decision is armed. Mr. Zimmerman made the decision to initiate that confrontation, without being forced, or having the jurisdiction to do so, and in fact being told not to do so.

And let's leave race out of the incident, even though there is evidence of how Mr. Zimmerman felt about young blacks in the neighborhood, and what might have motivated him to continue into that confrontation.

There is zero credible evidence that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. Those who claim that Martin reacted from fear of Zimmerman refuse to accept the reality that Martin had four minutes to go the short distance to where he was staying. He chose not to do this. Then, by virtue of the physical evidence, it is apparent that Martin was the one who initiated the physical confrontation. Finally, after hearing Zimmerman's cries for help for over 45 seconds he had the opportunity to break the fight off under the presence of a third party (John Good) and he again chose not to avail himself of that out. Unfortunately, the responsibility of this tragedy falls on Martin.

[ijusluvit]

There is zero credible evidence that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. Those who claim that Martin reacted from fear of Zimmerman refuse to accept the reality that Martin had four minutes to go the short distance to where he was staying. He chose not to do this. Then, by virtue of the physical evidence, it is apparent that Martin was the one who initiated the physical confrontation. Finally, after hearing Zimmerman's cries for help for over 45 seconds he had the opportunity to break the fight off under the presence of a third party (John Good) and he again chose not to avail himself of that out. Unfortunately, the responsibility of this tragedy falls on Martin.

Are you suggesting that some force compelled Mr Zimmerman to become involved in this incident?

If so, what was that?

[NJblue]

Are you suggesting that some force compelled Mr Zimmerman to become involved in this incident?

If so, what was that?

Are you suggesting that some force compelled Martin to accost, punch and continue to beat Zimmerman despite pleas for help? If so, what was that?

[batman911]

Are you suggesting that some force compelled Mr Zimmerman to become involved in this incident?

If so, what was that?

GZ did not break any law by carrying a weapon or asking TM what he was doing in the neighborhood. The law was first broken when TM assaulted GZ. Unfortunately, that was the mistake that cost him his life. You have no right to assault someone even if they are following or annoying you. TM's parents did not do their job. It is apparent from evidence not allowed that TM took joy in previous "ground and pound" incidents and appeared to be a way of life for him. I wonder how you would feel if the person getting pounded was one of your friends or relatives. All of this happened in seconds and I'm sure anyone on the receiving end of TM beating would have done the same if they are honest with themselves. If you were the one getting the beating would you have been afraid for you life if it was your head being slammed on the concrete?

[l2ridehd]

Our legal system has an established process for dealing with these issues. It is called a trial by jury. It has been completed and the members of that jury heard all the arguments and evidence submitted by both the prosecution and the defense. It was a jury selected and approved by both sides. After hearing all the facts and information they made a unanimous decision of not guilty. For all of us to pontificate as to why this was good or bad is stupid. We only hear what so the so called media wants us to hear, not everything as that jury did. The media has made a circus of this and will not let it go. Either we accept our legal system as is or work to change it. But stop trying to second guess it.

And if Eric Holder or Harry Reid or Al Sharlaton or the NAACP continue to stir the pot, they are the one's that should be prosecuted. You can't try a person a second time for the same thing, that is called double jeopardy and is not allowed under our legal system. They are all grand standing for political gain.

[redwitch]

Given the evidence and Florida law, the jury came to the right decision from everything I had seen. It was one of the saddest prosecutorial cases I've seen in a long time. The DA blew it when he aired all of the tapes and videotapes. At that point, the trial was over and the judge could have declared a directed verdict and saved some time and effort.

I do think that there was a good chance a totally different verdict would have occurred had Zimmerman testified. The lies, inconsistencies, his thoughts would have come out.

BTW -- we only have Zimmerman's word that Martin said Zimmerman was going to die that night (sorry, I don't believe that for one second) and I've found no record anywhere that Zimmerman ever asked Martin where he was going. In fact, Martin asked why Zimmerman was following him and Zimmerman denied that he was.

[Taltarzac725]

Our legal system has an established process for dealing with these issues. It is called a trial by jury. It has been completed and the members of that jury heard all the arguments and evidence submitted by both the prosecution and the defense. It was a jury selected and approved by both sides. After hearing all the facts and information they made a unanimous decision of not guilty. For all of us to pontificate as to why this was good or bad is stupid. We only hear what so the so called media wants us to hear, not everything as that jury did. The media has made a circus of this and will not let it go. Either we accept our legal system as is or work to change it. But stop trying to second guess it.

And if Eric Holder or Harry Reid or Al Sharlaton or the NAACP continue to stir the pot, they are the one's that should be prosecuted. You can't try a person a second time for the same thing, that is called double jeopardy and is not allowed under our legal system. They are all grand standing for political gain.

Get involved with the work I have been doing trying to get more practical materials for survivors/victims of crimes accessible through libraries and Sheriffs' web-sites. That is one way to change the system. This applies to both people who have been victimized by people breaking the law as well as those unfairly accused for crimes they did not commit.

We do need jurors who are better educated in the legal system and its strengths and weaknesses.

[zcaveman]

Our legal system has an established process for dealing with these issues. It is called a trial by jury. It has been completed and the members of that jury heard all the arguments and evidence submitted by both the prosecution and the defense. It was a jury selected and approved by both sides. After hearing all the facts and information they made a unanimous decision of not guilty. For all of us to pontificate as to why this was good or bad is stupid. We only hear what so the so called media wants us to hear, not everything as that jury did. The media has made a circus of this and will not let it go. Either we accept our legal system as is or work to change it. But stop trying to second guess it.

And if Eric Holder or Harry Reid or Al Sharlaton or the NAACP continue to stir the pot, they are the one's that should be prosecuted. You can't try a person a second time for the same thing, that is called double jeopardy and is not allowed under our legal system. They are all grand standing for political gain.

The gang in Washington wants to try it as a federal case.

To quote: "experienced federal prosecutors will determine whether the evidence reveals a prosecutable violation of any of the limited federal criminal civil rights statutes within our jurisdiction, and whether federal prosecution is appropriate in accordance with the Department's policy governing successive federal prosecution following a state trial," the DOJ said.

Apparently if "they" do not get their way they will try another way.

Z

[tucson]

What is telling is as I listened to all the testimony ,talking heads and so-called legal eagles when they were speaking of GZ's head wounds like it was no big deal. Even the "special prosecutor" Corey last night in her speech , said it was not sufficient enough of injuries to be classified as self defense. The only person that explained the head injuries of GZ correctly and honestly was the defense's ME who is world reknowned. I know people personally who've died(my brother) who had a fractured skull & a blood clot to the brain from falling on concrete and (my best friend)who hit her head on a hanging pot,and also received a blood clot and had to have brain surgery at MGH in Boston. Niether one of them did not even bleed, my brother had a bump and unfortunately he did not go to the hospital,I wish he had, he'd probably would've been saved if he had. So it is false information when people mock and make light of GZ"s head injuries being a few little scratches, etc,etc. He probably would've died from TM's beating and that's why (I believe) GZ said it was God's will that he had his gun w/him.

[njbchbum]

I respectfully disagree with the OP and the poster who agrees with NJBlue. To me the decision to engage in violent confrontation carries a heavy responsibility, especially if the party making the decision is armed. Mr. Zimmerman made the decision to initiate that confrontation, without being forced, or having the jurisdiction to do so, and in fact being told not to do so.

And let's leave race out of the incident, even though there is evidence of how Mr. Zimmerman felt about young blacks in the neighborhood, and what might have motivated him to continue into that confrontation.

ijusluvit -
what is the job of community watch - if not to watch?

under what authority does a police dispatcher issue commands/orders that must be followed? [the dispatchers i know dispatch emergency personnel and have a first aid manual at their desk in case they are needed to provide that info until emergency responders arrive on site]

if gz had not followed tm - how would he have been able to answer the dispatcher's subsequent question of 'where did he go'? confusing/conflicting?

pray tell how you came to the conclusion that gz initiated the confrontation and not tm...just by following tm?

if tm was concerned about being followed by a cracker... why did he not go stratight home, to the first porch with a light on ot call 911 to report same?

what might have motivated gz to follow tm - how about his neighborhood watch responsibilities?

what would you do if your nose was broken and your head slammed into the ground while being told you were going to die that night?

[ijusluvit]

GZ did not break any law by carrying a weapon or asking TM what he was doing in the neighborhood. The law was first broken when TM assaulted GZ. Unfortunately, that was the mistake that cost him his life. You have no right to assault someone even if they are following or annoying you. TM's parents did not do their job. It is apparent from evidence not allowed that TM took joy in previous "ground and pound" incidents and appeared to be a way of life for him. I wonder how you would feel if the person getting pounded was one of your friends or relatives. All of this happened in seconds and I'm sure anyone on the receiving end of TM beating would have done the same if they are honest with themselves. If you were the one getting the beating would you have been afraid for you life if it was your head being slammed on the concrete?

Speculate forever about who broke the law first. The OP asked if the system worked. My opinion is that there is a flaw in the system which allows a person to deliberately confront another person without any compulsion or duty to do so; do so while in possession of a loaded firearm; and then walk away with absolutely no responsibility for the result. I believe that while a person is in possession of a lethal weapon, they have a responsibility not to voluntarily enter into potential confrontations. Think of it as not a lot different from the responsibility to lock up firearms in a private home where children are residing.

[tucson]

Do people realize that there were at least 8 robberies in a matter of 14 mos. at Twin Lakes and that there was other residents BESIDES GZ calling the police for help. There were dozen's of reports of B&E's & would be burglars casing homes & that was creating alot of fear with the residents.It wasn't just Gerge calling the police about "the young black men" robbing homes (their words not mine).That's why GZ was watching TM, NOT to stalk him as the media so falsely keeps stating over & over to bolster this phoney scenario of racial profiling, it's very scary. The ones who want to protect the innocent victims are the ones that are being labeled the "evil racial profiling haters"! WOW!!!

[Shimpy]

[QUOTE=Bucco;708047"The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) has called on the Obama administration to pursue civil rights charges against George Zimmerman.

The NAACP also tweeted out a petition urging the Justice Department to “open a civil rights case against George Zimmerman.”

“Attorney General Eric Holder,” the petition reads, “The Department of Justice has closely monitored the State of Florida’s prosecution of the case against George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin murder since it began. Today, with the acquittal of George Zimmerman, it is time for the Department of Justice to act.”

“The most fundamental of civil rights — the right to life — was violated the night George Zimmerman stalked and then took the life of Trayvon Martin,” the NAACP wrote. “We ask that the Department of Justice file civil rights charges against Mr. Zimmerman for this egregious violation.”

“Please address the travesties of the tragic death of Trayvon Martin by acting today,” the NAACP wrote.

The head of the NAACP and Attorney General Eric Holder have both expressed their admiration for one another.



Why was it OK for OJ Simpson to walk but not Zimmerman???? Because Simpson was black and Zimmerman wasn't.

[BarryRX]

I have read all the previous responses to the OP's question. I have been one of the minority on TOTV that was disappointed in the verdict. Please do not argue with me, because to answer the OP's question, I believe the system did work. For those complaining about spending taxpayer money on a trial, I submit to you that a man was shot to death with very few witnesses to witness the entire incident. I can think of no higher purpose of a society than to make sure that it was self defense rather than murder. So, in that respect, the system worked because there was a trial. Next, I believe that a jury was picked with both the prosecution and defense having the opportunity to accept or reject jurors that would hear the case with impartiality, listen to evidence that I was not previously aware of, and come to a verdict that was not influenced by fear or bribes or threats. In that respect also, the system worked. I believe that both the prosecution and defense had a chance to present their cases, so the system worked there also. So, I accept the verdict and will move on with my life. I have heard it said that the United States has the second worst justice system in the world. The only one that is worse is everybody else's.

[tucson]

Why is it that J.Jackson, A.Sharpton, NAACP, & others don't organize the same kinds of marches and calling on Washington (like they are now re;the Zimmerman/Martin case) for all the young black men and women that are being murdered everyday in our country?

[Rickg]

Our legal system has an established process for dealing with these issues. It is called a trial by jury. It has been completed and the members of that jury heard all the arguments and evidence submitted by both the prosecution and the defense. It was a jury selected and approved by both sides. After hearing all the facts and information they made a unanimous decision of not guilty. For all of us to pontificate as to why this was good or bad is stupid. We only hear what so the so called media wants us to hear, not everything as that jury did. The media has made a circus of this and will not let it go. Either we accept our legal system as is or work to change it. But stop trying to second guess it.

And if Eric Holder or Harry Reid or Al Sharlaton or the NAACP continue to stir the pot, they are the one's that should be prosecuted. You can't try a person a second time for the same thing, that is called double jeopardy and is not allowed under our legal system. They are all grand standing for political gain.

I used to second guess juries. However, after serving on a jury that was sequestered for three weeks for a murder trial, I no longer second guess. It is a very intense and difficult job they have, and as stated, both sides were represented and heard in this case. In this juries eyes the state didn't meet the criteria for a conviction. It SHOULD be over, whether we onlookers agree or not.

[NotGolfer]

I have read all the previous responses to the OP's question. I have been one of the minority on TOTV that was disappointed in the verdict. Please do not argue with me, because to answer the OP's question, I believe the system did work. For those complaining about spending taxpayer money on a trial, I submit to you that a man was shot to death with very few witnesses to witness the entire incident. I can think of no higher purpose of a society than to make sure that it was self defense rather than murder. So, in that respect, the system worked because there was a trial. Next, I believe that a jury was picked with both the prosecution and defense having the opportunity to accept or reject jurors that would hear the case with impartiality, listen to evidence that I was not previously aware of, and come to a verdict that was not influenced by fear or bribes or threats. In that respect also, the system worked. I believe that both the prosecution and defense had a chance to present their cases, so the system worked there also. So, I accept the verdict and will move on with my life. I have heard it said that the United States has the second worst justice system in the world. The only one that is worse is everybody else's.

I didn't follow this case as "some" seem to have done, due to the fact that early on the media and others took it upon themselves to try and convict GZ. They didn't have ALL of the facts yet they kept on and on and on. Given all that...I posted the above quote because I agree with it....especially the last couple of sentences. I'd rather live in our country than anywhere else in the world due to how our fore-fathers set things up for us to enjoy freedoms that many do not get to. As for this whole outcome----no one has won, in my opinion. Two families are hurting and will never be the same again. I don't think any of us have the answers and can keep on speculating but the outcome of this is still the same.

[Happinow]

The system worked. There just wasn't enough evidence to convict GZ. If you really think about it, GZ was just doing his job as neighborhood watch. He was watching a suspicious person be it black, white, male or female. He was doing what he signed up for. That neighborhood had plenty of issues to form a watch group.

[njbchbum]

[QUOTE=Shimpy;708156
snipped
Why was it OK for OJ Simpson to walk but not Zimmerman???? Because Simpson was black and Zimmerman wasn't.[/QUOTE]

no - oj walked because the prosecution team did a lousy job!

[gomoho]

Speculate forever about who broke the law first. The OP asked if the system worked. My opinion is that there is a flaw in the system which allows a person to deliberately confront another person without any compulsion or duty to do so; do so while in possession of a loaded firearm; and then walk away with absolutely no responsibility for the result. I believe that while a person is in possession of a lethal weapon, they have a responsibility not to voluntarily enter into potential confrontations. Think of it as not a lot different from the responsibility to lock up firearms in a private home where children are residing.

The problem with your opinion it is as you said yourself speculation. The jury dealt with facts and evidence.

[janmcn]

Speculate forever about who broke the law first. The OP asked if the system worked. My opinion is that there is a flaw in the system which allows a person to deliberately confront another person without any compulsion or duty to do so; do so while in possession of a loaded firearm; and then walk away with absolutely no responsibility for the result. I believe that while a person is in possession of a lethal weapon, they have a responsibility not to voluntarily enter into potential confrontations. Think of it as not a lot different from the responsibility to lock up firearms in a private home where children are residing.


In Florida it's called the "shoot first" law.

[Bucco]

In Florida it's called the "shoot first" law.



If not mistaken, the law you make fun of was not an issue and the right to use it was waived by the defendant thus, what is your point ? No more self defense laws ?

[Kelsie52]

We talk about facts and evidence --

There was no "evidence" that GZ started the altercaton
There was lots of evidence the GZ was taking a beating .

GZ did nothing illegal by following TM --we will never know who did what

Some facts from the people that were there:
All the Police officers believed GZ acted in self defense (you could tell by their testimony)
The Chief of Police was fired because he failed to arrest GZ
The DA refused to prosecute

The case never went to Grand Jury to hear the evidence --because they knew they would not call for any action and were afraid of an uprising

The IT person who found some evidence on TM phone and came forward after the prosecuters faild to notify the defense about the discovery was fired
SIX jurors could not find enough evidence to convict.

The system worked

GZ was found not guilty --not innocent --none of us are !!

It is a shame that TM died --it could have been averted with a little communication--- instead of a lot of tough guy stuff

[ijusluvit]

The problem with your opinion it is as you said yourself speculation. The jury dealt with facts and evidence.


I realize you don't appreciate my correcting you, but if you read my post again you might realize I used the word 'speculate' referring to another poster's comments.

Go ahead, read my comments again. Is it not obvious I have cited facts from the case to support my opinion that there is a flaw in the system?

[njbchbum]

ijusluvit - i have followed your posts and am having a hard time finding out where you have cited any facts from the case - could you please point them out again? thanx

[senior citizen]

We talk about facts and evidence --

There was no "evidence" that GZ started the altercaton
There was lots of evidence the GZ was taking a beating .

GZ did nothing illegal by following TM --we will never know who did what

Some facts from the people that were there:
All the Police officers believed GZ acted in self defense (you could tell by their testimony)
The Chief of Police was fired because he failed to arrest GZ
The DA refused to prosecute

The case never went to Grand Jury to hear the evidence --because they knew they would not call for any action and were afraid of an uprising

The IT person who found some evidence on TM phone and came forward after the prosecuters faild to notify the defense about the discovery was fired
SIX jurors could not find enough evidence to convict.

The system worked

GZ was found not guilty --not innocent --none of us are !!

It is a shame that TM died --it could have been averted with a little communication--- instead of a lot of tough guy stuff

Excellent post.

[Jim&Fran]

Some of you people are as blind as LADY JUSTICE.
This case was decided due to lack of evidence by the state.
Maybe it was the calls to 911 that indeed worked in favor for GZ, including the screams.
If there was one more call to 911 that night the Circus Trial would never have taken place.
Which call do you ask? The call TM should have made himself with cell phone in hand.
He should have hung up on his "friend" and reported to the 911 operator that he was being followed by a "creepy-ass cracker" or better still he could have just said he was being stalked.
Maybe with that 4 minute long time period he could have ducked behind a bush or wall and made that call. What really happened was that this slick street kid was prepared to confront and challenge GZ.
TMs friend testified that she thought "it" would just be a fight and he would call her back.
Was she alarmed? Nah......
TM also referred to GZ as.... "The N----- is still following me". (scared child?)
He confronted GZ and did pop him in the nose, I believe GZ may have tried to flee. That's why his flashlight was a distance away from the area of the shooting. TM wanted GZ to remember him so he got him down, straddled him and began to wail away. GZ screamed for help for almost 40 seconds.
Who knows when TM would have stopped his assault.
I watched every minute of testimony in this case and in my opinion the jury got it right.
GZ openly talked with the police on several occasions without representation the next day.
Two statements to the police the next day during the walk through really made my mind up. GZ said that he was screaming loud while he was being punched in the head while on his back. When the lead detective tried to trick him by saying "there's a good chance that we have this all on video" GZ said "I hope so, thank God".
GZ did not confront a vandal or burgler that night, he had the misfortune to meet a punk with a bad attitude. For TM it was just going to be another ass whopping to tell his cousin.
Now all we hear is a child going home with skittles was gunned down by a wanna-be cop.
Things are never going to change in America.
Personally, I've been there and done that......

[patfla06]

I see a lot of posts saying that they were relieved and that the system worked. Did it? I happen to agree with what Mark O'Mara said last night: two aspects of the sysytem failed George Zimmerman. First, the media failed in its responsibility to objectively report the news and instead was used as a powerful tool of the professional rable rousers like Al Sharpton. I must admit, I too fell for this initially. I saw the distorted, one-sided reports and was convinced that Zimmerman had preyed on an innocent teenager.

Secondly, and most importantly, the legal system failed George Zimmerman. I'm sure he felt like he didn't do anything wrong and that the system would work and never press charges against him. Little did he know that our legal system no longer works like the blindfolded symbol that is used to porturay it. He didn't realize that when politics get involved and people like Angela Corey get involved, your rights are thrown away and power of the state can marshalled against you with no attempt of giving you any benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, the system did work - but only after successfully destroying a person whose primary motivation was nothing more than helping keep his neighborhood safe.

Great post - agree totally.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Are you suggesting that some force compelled Mr Zimmerman to become involved in this incident?

If so, what was that?

Zimmerman decided to follow Martin and that was a mistake. Then he was told to stop following him by the police dispatcher so he complied with those instruction. Mistake rectified. Now a whole new scenario takes place.

Isn't it interesting that the NAACP and those other groups who are asking the justice department to open a case keep using the term that Zimmerman "stalked and killed him".

I have to believe that they know that this is simply not the case and that that language is meant to inflame the situation.

[tucson]

Some of you people are as blind as LADY JUSTICE.
This case was decided due to lack of evidence by the state.
Maybe it was the calls to 911 that indeed worked in favor for GZ, including the screams.
If there was one more call to 911 that night the Circus Trial would never have taken place.
Which call do you ask? The call TM should have made himself with cell phone in hand.
He should have hung up on his "friend" and reported to the 911 operator that he was being followed by a "creepy-ass cracker" or better still he could have just said he was being stalked.
Maybe with that 4 minute long time period he could have ducked behind a bush or wall and made that call. What really happened was that this slick street kid was prepared to confront and challenge GZ.
TMs friend testified that she thought "it" would just be a fight and he would call her back.
Was she alarmed? Nah......
TM also referred to GZ as.... "The N----- is still following me". (scared child?)
He confronted GZ and did pop him in the nose, I believe GZ may have tried to flee. That's why his flashlight was a distance away from the area of the shooting. TM wanted GZ to remember him so he got him down, straddled him and began to wail away. GZ screamed for help for almost 40 seconds.
Who knows when TM would have stopped his assault.
I watched every minute of testimony in this case and in my opinion the jury got it right.
GZ openly talked with the police on several occasions without representation the next day.
Two statements to the police the next day during the walk through really made my mind up. GZ said that he was screaming loud while he was being punched in the head while on his back. When the lead detective tried to trick him by saying "there's a good chance that we have this all on video" GZ said "I hope so, thank God".
GZ did not confront a vandal or burgler that night, he had the misfortune to meet a punk with a bad attitude. For TM it was just going to be another ass whopping to tell his cousin.
Now all we hear is a child going home with skittles was gunned down by a wanna-be cop.
Things are never going to change in America.
Personally, I've been there and done that......

You ARE 100% right in every detail.

[gomoho]

I realize you don't appreciate my correcting you, but if you read my post again you might realize I used the word 'speculate' referring to another poster's comments.

Go ahead, read my comments again. Is it not obvious I have cited facts from the case to support my opinion that there is a flaw in the system?

Took your suggestion and reread the post, but still don't see any facts. I am very curious about folks that believe GZ was guilty as to exactly what evidence they are using to come up with this conclusion - other than speculation.

[OldManTime]

Our judicial system, although isn't perfect, is the best in the free world, and the outcome was correct, he was judged by his piers and they got it right. Now all the uneducated, unemployed, racist people that have nothing better to do, and want the line there pockets with more money, as donations pour in, will get there way.

[tucson]

Newt Gingrich has been making the rounds on the major networks and he's the only one that has the guts to tell it like it really is, that being , why isn't anyone making an issue out of blacks killing blacks! Why,why,why doesn't Jackson, Sharpton, NAACP care about that reality??

[Bucco]

Newt Gingrich has been making the rounds on the major networks and he's the only one that has the guts to tell it like it really is, that being , why isn't anyone making an issue out of blacks killing blacks! Why,why,why doesn't Jackson, Sharpton, NAACP care about that reality??

Because it has NO political gain attached to it.

[gmcneill]

The concerns and complaints that Jackson et al have are that they believe that the system , generally speaking, is applied differently when the victim is African-American and the perpetrator is not.

That belief is why Jackson et al state that if the places were reversed- if TM was a white teenager and GZ was an African-American- that GZ would not have been presumed to have acted in self-defense and not charged with any crime but instead would have been arrested for murder, with the implication being that GZ would have been found guilty of murder or at least manslaughter.

The specific issue of black-on-black murder is a completely separate matter. I do not know of Jackson et al efforts regarding that issue. I presume that they have been, are, and will continue to be involved in addressing that and similar African-American centric issues. It's just that those efforts are conducted in a lower profile manner.

[gocubsgo]

I see this morning the DOJ is looking into the case now and is deciding whether to bring Federal charges against him. It never ends for this poor guy.

If George Zimmerman were black, this would not have even been mentioned.

[Jim&Fran]

Because Jackson, Sharpton and the NAACP can't reason with their own constituents.
As hard as they try they can't push through a wall of ignorance, so instead they keep pushing and shoveling their hatred through the mass media. Let's keep focusing on truth, it may be a frustrating battle but we have to be open, fair and honest.
Keep looking for answers to the killing/murder rate in Chicago.

[golf2140]

I didn't see alll this protesting when O.J. was found nor guilty. Nor did I see all this when Anthony was found not guilty!

[pooh]

And yet we keep this discussion going. Whether we like it or not, a trial was held, the defendant was found not guilty and the media and many others just keep it going and going and going. What do those who continue on want? Zimmerman dead? Don't say jail, I don't believe it for a second.

All we're now seeing is human "pack" mentality. We are human animals and join in just as easily as other beast when pack instincts take over.

I'm venting, too!

[Villages PL]

Ultimately, the system did work - but only after successfully destroying a person whose primary motivation was nothing more than helping keep his neighborhood safe.

I assume he can't recover damages from the state for slander. They get to destroy his reputation and he has no recourse? Is that justice?

[janmcn]

I didn't see alll this protesting when O.J. was found nor guilty. Nor did I see all this when Anthony was found not guilty!


You're kidding right? People were protesting in Casey Anthony's neighborhood for months, probably years. The night she was released from jail, she had to be released in the middle of the night, and people were still lined up to protest her release.

The judge had to keep the juror's name secret for 90 days for fear of retailiation and bodily harm. Restaurants in Pinellas County had signs reading "jurors stay out" posted in the window.

To this day she is still being sued. Only two weeks ago she was ordered to pay the Equi Search company $25,000 for the searches they conducted for Caylee, while Casey knew she was already dead.

People did not protest in Times Square, but around Orlando and central Florida there were plenty of protests. Even now two years later, she can't show her face.

[graciegirl]

And yet we keep this discussion going. Whether we like it or not, a trial was held, the defendant was found not guilty and yet the media and many others just keep it going and going and going. What do those who continue on want? Zimmerman dead? Don't say jail, I don't believe it for a second.

All we're now seeing is human "pack" mentality. We are human animals and join in just as easily as other beast when pack instincts take over.

I'm venting, too!

I agree Pooh, and I am glad you are in my world to bounce ideas off of. I am glad you are kind and fair and smart and reasonable and see things clearer than I do.

I wonder often at the conclusions that other people draw that are so different from my own.

I wonder how long we in this pack will enjoy fanning the hatred and when we will all just let it die. I wonder if the real issues will ever be stated? No one in my family ever shot anyone, got arrested and put in jail or got thrown out of school. Either they were pretty smart or pretty smart to just keep working and taking care of their own business. I am a HUGE believer in the work ethic. I think it cures a lot of societal ills.

I have found the harder you work, the less trouble you get in and it also seems to improve your luck.

WAY too simple.

[rjn5656]

Yes, it did. And now Holden is going to poke his nose where it doesn't belong.

[Monkei]

I see a lot of posts saying that they were relieved and that the system worked. Did it? I happen to agree with what Mark O'Mara said last night: two aspects of the sysytem failed George Zimmerman. First, the media failed in its responsibility to objectively report the news and instead was used as a powerful tool of the professional rable rousers like Al Sharpton. I must admit, I too fell for this initially. I saw the distorted, one-sided reports and was convinced that Zimmerman had preyed on an innocent teenager.

Secondly, and most importantly, the legal system failed George Zimmerman. I'm sure he felt like he didn't do anything wrong and that the system would work and never press charges against him. Little did he know that our legal system no longer works like the blindfolded symbol that is used to portray it. He didn't realize that when politics get involved and people like Angela Corey get involved, your rights are thrown away and power of the state can marshalled against you with no attempt of giving you any benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, the system did work - but only after successfully destroying a person whose primary motivation was nothing more than helping keep his neighborhood safe.

Unfortunately the system worked. It worked too well. GZ needs to be accountable but there was just not enough evidence. The whole notion that you can basically provoke someone into attacking you and then shoot them when they attack you is wrong. The notion that you can tail and follow a kid just because of his color and he is wearing a hoode is wrong.

The result of his innocence while the kid whom he provoked and murdered no longer has a life.

When asked what he would do differently he responded nothing and smiles. Well how about for starter you advise TM you are with the neighborhood watch and ask if he needs help when he is beside your car. Zimmerman is a scab of life and the only spec of decency to emerge from this trial is that GZ will no longer live a normal life again. He belongs in his house afraid to leave and afraid to answer the door. If that is all that GZ receives as his sentence then so be it.

[Monkei]

Yes, it did. And now Holden is going to poke his nose where it doesn't belong.

Holder has a job to do, or his department does, and they are now going to give lip service but will not do anything, funny how someone's definition of poking their nose in is actually heir job.

[Monkei]

I see this morning the DOJ is looking into the case now and is deciding whether to bring Federal charges against him. It never ends for this poor guy.

If George Zimmerman were black, this would not have even been mentioned.

Yeah that poor guy.

[janmcn]

Yes, it did. And now Holden is going to poke his nose where it doesn't belong.


Attorney General Eric Holder took an oath to uphold the constitution, and part of that job is making sure any citizen's constitutional rights were not violated. If Trayvon Martin's constitutional rights were violated, then this case needs to be investigated for civil right's violations.

George Zimmerman is going to need all the financial assistance he can get to go up against the United States government, if this case is pursued.

[gomoho]

Unfortunately the system worked. It worked too well. GZ needs to be accountable but there was just not enough evidence. The whole notion that you can basically provoke someone into attacking you and then shoot them when they attack you is wrong. The notion that you can tail and follow a kid just because of his color and he is wearing a hoode is wrong.

The result of his innocence while the kid whom he provoked and murdered no longer has a life.

When asked what he would do differently he responded nothing and smiles. Well how about for starter you advise TM you are with the neighborhood watch and ask if he needs help when he is beside your car. Zimmerman is a scab of life and the only spec of decency to emerge from this trial is that GZ will no longer live a normal life again. He belongs in his house afraid to leave and afraid to answer the door. If that is all that GZ receives as his sentence then so be it.

Maybe "there just wasn't enough evidence" because it didn't happen they way you insist it did and got it all wrong. All evidence points to the fact Trayvon could have gone home and didn't have to beat the hell out of GZ.

[njbchbum]

snipped
'...Well how about for starter you advise TM you are with the neighborhood watch and ask if he needs help when he is beside your car. Zimmerman is a scab of life...' snipped

1] do you have and factual evidence that shows tm was next to gz's car or gz could have gotten his car next to tm; or that gz had the oppty to tell that to tm - or can we consider that gz was decked and jumped on for a pound and ground before he could so advise?

2] as far as scabs go, do you have any factual info to show that tm was any sort of upstanding pillar of any community?

just asking..................

[Bucco]

Attorney General Eric Holder took an oath to uphold the constitution, and part of that job is making sure any citizen's constitutional rights were not violated. If Trayvon Martin's constitutional rights were violated, then this case needs to be investigated for civil right's violations.

George Zimmerman is going to need all the financial assistance he can get to go up against the United States government, if this case is pursued.

Well, he eventually will get a bundle from NBC for what they did to the evidence, and at least in consideration is the violation of his rights in stopping the police investigation in Sanford...the distorting of the evidence, meaning the playing of tapes for the Martin family with no other presence including the police.

Not sure if he can do any of this since found innocent, but the NBC thing, he will get a nice sum.

[bkcunningham1]

This Uncomfortable Truth: The State Of Evidence in the George Zimmerman Prosecution | emptywheel (http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/07/11/uncomfortable-truth-the-state-of-evidence-in-the-george-zimmerman-prosecution/) is so powerful and so well written it needs to be shared.


Uncomfortable Truth: The State Of Evidence in the George Zimmerman Prosecution
Posted on July 11, 2013 by bmaz

I have said this from the get go: In the case of State of Florida v. George Zimmerman, under the actual facts of the case from the State of Florida’s own disclosure, as opposed to hype from Benjamin Crump and his public relations team, who have self interest from representation of family members in a civil damages case, not to mention well meaning, even if uninformed, mass and liberal media, there has never been a good factual rebuttal to George Zimmerman’s own account of self defense. You know why? Because there is not any compelling rebuttal within the facts as adduced in the investigation and entered in the record at trial. And the presumption of innocence and burden of proof in the American criminal justice system still mean something.

Yes, I know what I am saying runs counter to the popular meme and what people emotionally feel and want to hear. But everything I have noted from the start of this case has been borne out in the trial evidence and resulting posture as the case heads to closing arguments and to the jury for deliberation.

Did you know that powerful local mayoral office politicians involved themselves, by meeting with only the victim’s family and their attorneys, in an improper ex-parte manner, to go over the most critical evidence during the early stages of the investigation and before said Martin family members’ statements were relied on to file charges? I bet you did not, but that has been the testimony in the trial record.

Did any of you see the young female neighborhood homeowner, Olivia Bertalan, that testified Wednesday as to the crime spree that was ongoing in her and Zimmerman’s neighborhood, Retreat at Twin Lakes, including the home invasion where she and her child were victims of one or more home invaders, and who was effusive in her praise for the concern of the neighborhood watch program and George Zimmerman? Did you know that, thanks in part to the actions of Zimmerman and his wife, the juvenile suspect was caught and sentenced as an adult by this same judge, Debra Nelson, to five years in prison? Probably not is my guess. But that, too, is the evidence.

Did any of you see the other neighbors, of all races, in Retreat at Twin Lakes who testified on Zimmerman’s behalf about the the facts of the case, that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor on top of Zimmerman when the shooting occurred, and the crime afflicting the neighborhood and the need for the neighborhood watch program? My guess is you did not. But that, too, is part of the evidence in the trial record.

Did any of you see the parade of witnesses that laid the foundation for the fact Trayvon Martin was the aggressor in the actual critical physical encounter between him and Zimmerman, and was on top of Zimmerman, and beating Zimmerman, both moments before, and at the time of, the key gun shot? And supported by both the case detectives and one of the foremost expert pathologists, Dr. Vincent di Maio, in the world? My guess is you did not. But that, too, is in the trial record as hard evidence.

Yes, all of those facts are exactly what was testified to in open court. Most of the witnesses were literally the state’s own witnesses, including the two main case detectives, Detective Chris Serino and Detective Doris Singleton. Did you know that the state’s own veteran case detectives, Serino and Singleton, testified they believed George Zimmerman and thought his version of the facts consistent and credible? My guess is you don’t know that. Yet all of that is exactly what the sworn testimony has been in open court.

Did you know that the state, by and through Angela Corey, relentlessly engaged in Brady violations with regard to discovery and evidence disclosure and that, as a result, discovery and depositions thereon have been ongoing even during the trial, all to the detriment to, and prejudice of, Defendant Zimmerman? My guess is you did not, but that too is part of the record.

In spite of all of the above, the political, and cravenly so, prosecution may still tug on enough emotional and falsely racial heartstrings to wrongfully convict Zimmerman. Almost surely there will be no conviction of the always wrongfully charged 2nd degree murder charge; but the possibly of a flawed compromise verdict to a lesser included charge of manslaughter, battery, or other lesser included offense, is very real. If so, it will, despite all the emotions of this case, be a tragedy of justice.

No matter what you think of George Zimmerman personally, the rule of law should militate in favor of an acquittal. Yes, if the burden of proof in the American criminal justice system is truly “beyond a reasonable doubt”, and if there really exists a common law right to “self defense”, then acquittal is exactly what the verdict should be, and must be.

I have no affinity for George Zimmerman. Frankly he strikes me as a hapless dope. Under no circumstances do I support George Zimmerman, or anybody else, wandering around with concealed carry, locked and loaded, firearms on neighborhood patrol (even though he was not on patrol, but only on his way to Target for family shopping). It is a tragic event waiting to happen and nowhere close to what the founders had in mind with regard to the Second Amendment. But my, and your, beliefs are not the law of the land either in Florida or anywhere else in the United States under District of Columbia v. Heller. And that is the law of the land, both for the Zimmerman case at bar, and and all others elsewhere.

We shall see how willing to follow the law the jury will be, and what their verdict is. But this case is not now, and NEVER has been, about what has been pitched and portrayed in the media. Never. It is not about racial prejudice and profiling (and the DOJ Civil Rights Division so found), and it is not about murder. It is about a tragic and unnecessary death, but one that is not a felony crime, despite all the sturm and drang.
State of Florida v. Zimmerman is a straight up traditional self defense case. It has never been pled as a Stand Your Ground defense case, irrespective of all the press coverage, attention and attribution to Stand Your Ground. It’s never been Stand Your Ground, and certainly is not now that the evidence is all in on the trial record. It is a straight self defense justification defense, one that would be pretty much the same under the law of any state in the union including that which you are in, and that I am in, now (so don’t blame “Florida law”).

There is nothing whatsoever unique in the self defense posture that has been effected in this case. Nothing. And it is, whether it is comfortable or not, a compelling self defense case. Actually, let us be honest: It is not comfortable. Not even close. But no matter how uncomfortable it is to say, Zimmerman needs to walk, because the self defense case is strong. The burden of proof in the instructions to the jury will read that not only is there a general presumption of innocence afforded Zimmerman but, moreover, the state must also prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did NOT act in self defense. Under the facts as adduced in the trial record that ought be, by all rights, an impossible burden for the jury to get past, whether on the pending count of 2nd degree depraved murder or any possible lesser included charge given to the jury.

The facts, the rule of law, and the constitutional burdens of proof compel an acquittal. Uncomfortable to hear; yes, it is. Necessary for an acquittal to occur; also, yes it is.

[Bucco]

Unfortunately the system worked. It worked too well. GZ needs to be accountable but there was just not enough evidence. The whole notion that you can basically provoke someone into attacking you and then shoot them when they attack you is wrong. The notion that you can tail and follow a kid just because of his color and he is wearing a hoode is wrong.

The result of his innocence while the kid whom he provoked and murdered no longer has a life.

When asked what he would do differently he responded nothing and smiles. Well how about for starter you advise TM you are with the neighborhood watch and ask if he needs help when he is beside your car. Zimmerman is a scab of life and the only spec of decency to emerge from this trial is that GZ will no longer live a normal life again. He belongs in his house afraid to leave and afraid to answer the door. If that is all that GZ receives as his sentence then so be it.

I am sure you will be providing credible IN EVIDENCE facts to back up your accusations !!!!

WOW...you do know you cannot just make things up.

[bkcunningham1]

Hi Bucco. It is nice to see your words again. I've missed reading your sanity. BK

[Bucco]

Hi Bucco. It is nice to see your words again. I've missed reading your sanity. BK

I am starting to feel insane however which for me is a short trip.

This entire thing has just awakened me....I did not follow the trial because I was living parttime in Tampa and without getting specific was just sickened at the interruption of a police investigation that I watched and then the constant distortion of truth to satisfy someone....not sure if it was to satisfy a political thing....a network thing...but it sure got out of hand quickly

BUT, from what I know from the investigation and from reading your post, the police had it right from the beginning

I am just so sparked having people insinuate racial motives because I do not think that politicians or folks who make a LIVING inspiring unrest should interfere in our police department work and our legal system. I do not and never will understand.

Thanks for "recognizing" me....was feeling a bit alone today !

[chachacha]

i recognize you, too, bucco, and i am sure many are happy to see your wise words.

[BobnBev]

Even tho the police really bungled the investigation, I think the outcome would have been the same. The prosecution was almost as bad.

I wonder if these "Detectives" (and I use that term loosely) were trained by the Detectives from the Jon Bonet Ramsey case in Denver.

[ijusluvit]

ijusluvit - i have followed your posts and am having a hard time finding out where you have cited any facts from the case - could you please point them out again? thanx


A couple of other posters say I'm not using factual information to make my case that there is a flaw in the system.

As I write this, CNN is conducting the first interview with Juror B-37 in the case. She has cited the same three facts I cited in my posts.
1) George Zimmerman decided to confront the person he saw. "He never should have gotten out of his car that evening."
2) GZ should have acted in a more "responsible way" since he was armed.
3) GZ had every right to carry a gun, "just like everyone".

The juror, who admits she favored a 'not guilty' verdict from the beginning, couldn't have put her finger on the system flaw any better. She admits the jury essentially ignored facts #1 & 2 because they had to follow Florida laws.

In my opinion, what Florida obscures through it's laws, including 'stand your ground' is the RESPONSIBILITY armed people have to use a higher level of good judgement while they are armed. I again liken it to the 'rule' that guns should be securely locked away especially in homes where there are children. If things go wrong when the facts are like those stated above, the armed person should not be able to walk away with NO RESPONSIBILITY for the incident. If someone leaves a gun unsecured and someone is killed or injured by it, the gun owner should not be able to walk away with NO RESPONSIBILITY for the incident.

Hopefully my conclusion and the facts I've cited to support it are now clear to you.

[njbchbum]

thanx, ijusluvit. cleared it up...and now i am sure that i don't agree entirely. i will never give up the opinion that it is okay to use deadly force when confronted with the threat of death and a pound and ground beating. i wonder what that juror thinks would have been a 'more responsible way' - just sit there yelling for help while being beaten and maybe killed? hmmm...

as far as responsibility for securing a gun when not in use - yes - responsibility there is a must. my sisters always asked parents if there were guns in their house before allowing a play date - and now their children do the same with their children! but that is a different situation than having your life threatened and being beaten. responsibility there boils down to survival and self-defense to achieve same.

anyone who kills with a gun never forgets it - ask any vet.

[Bucco]

A couple of other posters say I'm not using factual information to make my case that there is a flaw in the system.

As I write this, CNN is conducting the first interview with Juror B-37 in the case. She has cited the same three facts I cited in my posts.
1) George Zimmerman decided to confront the person he saw. "He never should have gotten out of his car that evening."
2) GZ should have acted in a more "responsible way" since he was armed.
3) GZ had every right to carry a gun, "just like everyone".

The juror, who admits she favored a 'not guilty' verdict from the beginning, couldn't have put her finger on the system flaw any better. She admits the jury essentially ignored facts #1 & 2 because they had to follow Florida laws.

In my opinion, what Florida obscures through it's laws, including 'stand your ground' is the RESPONSIBILITY armed people have to use a higher level of good judgement while they are armed. I again liken it to the 'rule' that guns should be securely locked away especially in homes where there are children. If things go wrong when the facts are like those stated above, the armed person should not be able to walk away with NO RESPONSIBILITY for the incident. If someone leaves a gun unsecured and someone is killed or injured by it, the gun owner should not be able to walk away with NO RESPONSIBILITY for the incident.

Hopefully my conclusion and the facts I've cited to support it are now clear to you.


This is what I read in your previous post....

"Originally Posted by Monkei
Unfortunately the system worked. It worked too well. GZ needs to be accountable but there was just not enough evidence. The whole notion that you can basically provoke someone into attacking you and then shoot them when they attack you is wrong. The notion that you can tail and follow a kid just because of his color and he is wearing a hoode is wrong."

Where was the "provocation" you speak of. I read and reread this new info and cannot find it. You were pretty specific in saying "provoked someone into attacking you". The juror you cite certainly didn't even hint at that. She said according to you that he should not have gotten out of his car....ok, I can buy that judgement, but see no provocation of any kind in your new info.

Nobody has even tried to make Zimmerman a hero.....but our system is not based on what you think. It is based on admitted facts. Your provoke statement is what YOU say and that does not make it a fact.

And while you want to blame the state, I ask if you know how many states have the same kind of law AND how many are in the process of making it law ?

Stop bending things to fit YOUR scenario..what, for some reason you wish it to be. The law nor life can work that way. This was not a sporting event...we are not on teams. It was a court of law. Using your imagination to come up with might have happened is no better than people calling young Martin a thug or whatever. It, and your premise, is not based on FACTS.

[cbg150]

In my opinion, what Florida obscures through it's laws, including 'stand your ground' is the RESPONSIBILITY armed people have to use a higher level of good judgement while they are armed. I again liken it to the 'rule' that guns should be securely locked away especially in homes where there are children. If things go wrong when the facts are like those stated above, the armed person should not be able to walk away with NO RESPONSIBILITY for the incident...

Very well put!!! Thank you for your insight!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ijusluvit]

thanx, ijusluvit. cleared it up...and now i am sure that i don't agree entirely. i will never give up the opinion that it is okay to use deadly force when confronted with the threat of death and a pound and ground beating. i wonder what that juror thinks would have been a 'more responsible way' - just sit there yelling for help while being beaten and maybe killed? hmmm...

as far as responsibility for securing a gun when not in use - yes - responsibility there is a must. my sisters always asked parents if there were guns in their house before allowing a play date - and now their children do the same with their children! but that is a different situation than having your life threatened and being beaten. responsibility there boils down to survival and self-defense to achieve same.

anyone who kills with a gun never forgets it - ask any vet.

The 'more responsible way' was simply not to have put himself into the deadly force situation. The juror asserts that GZ had the opportunity to do that and chose not to. Again, I'm focusing on what happened BEFORE the deadly incident, just as my example of not securing a gun which may come well before a tragedy.

[AJ32162]

The 'more responsible way' was simply not to have put himself into the deadly force situation. The juror asserts that GZ had the opportunity to do that and chose not to. Again, I'm focusing on what happened BEFORE the deadly incident, just as my example of not securing a gun which may come well before a tragedy.

Zimmerman did not place himself into a deadly force situation. Martin placed Zimmerman into the deadly force situation.

[Suzi]

I think Eric Holder will have a tough time proving racial profiling in this case. If you listen to the FULL/ENTIRE 911 call where Zimmerman describes the suspicious person. He never said it was a black person....the operator had to ask him what the color of the person was.
It was the press who "spliced" the 911 recording so it sounded like Zimmerman said it was a black man in a hoodie.

[Monkei]

Maybe "there just wasn't enough evidence" because it didn't happen they way you insist it did and got it all wrong. All evidence points to the fact Trayvon could have gone home and didn't have to beat the hell out of GZ.

How convenient, you left out everything that happened before the altercation. Like it never happened.

[Monkei]

1] do you have and factual evidence that shows tm was next to gz's car or gz could have gotten his car next to tm; or that gz had the oppty to tell that to tm - or can we consider that gz was decked and jumped on for a pound and ground before he could so advise?

2] as far as scabs go, do you have any factual info to show that tm was any sort of upstanding pillar of any community?

just asking..................

I assume the term circling the car means he was close enough for the defendant to talk with him.

Why do we even have to consider TM position in life? He was not the defendant.

[Monkei]

I am sure you will be providing credible IN EVIDENCE facts to back up your accusations !!!!

WOW...you do know you cannot just make things up.

Are you denying that at sometime GZ could not have peacefully approached TM during this whole cat and mouse game that GZ was playing. What am I making up. Common sense is not making things up.

[Bucco]

Are you denying that at sometime GZ could not have peacefully approached TM during this whole cat and mouse game that GZ was playing. What am I making up. Common sense is not making things up.

I will not argue facts in evidence, but when you say "could have"and use the word game as if you read minds, you answer your own questions.

[gomoho]

People PLEASE this was not a stand your ground case - it was self defense. And the jury had to decide if George Zimmerman acted in self defense - period. Not who should have stayed in their car, who threw the first punch, not if Trayvon should have called 911 or run home if he was frightened, but if Zimmerman honestly believed his life was in danger and was justified in defending himself.

[buggyone]

People PLEASE this was not a stand your ground case - it was self defense. And the jury had to decide if George Zimmerman acted in self defense - period. Not who should have stayed in their car, who threw the first punch, not if Trayvon should have called 911 or run home if he was frightened, but if Zimmerman honestly believed his life was in danger and was justified in defending himself.

...and the jury returned a not guilty verdict exactly as a jury did for Casey Anthony. Both are not guilty!

[AJ32162]

How convenient, you left out everything that happened before the altercation. Like it never happened.

There is/was no need to include it because it is/was IRRELEVANT to the case!

[ROCKETMAN]

I see a lot of posts saying that they were relieved and that the system worked. Did it? I happen to agree with what Mark O'Mara said last night: two aspects of the sysytem failed George Zimmerman. First, the media failed in its responsibility to objectively report the news and instead was used as a powerful tool of the professional rable rousers like Al Sharpton. I must admit, I too fell for this initially. I saw the distorted, one-sided reports and was convinced that Zimmerman had preyed on an innocent teenager.

Secondly, and most importantly, the legal system failed George Zimmerman. I'm sure he felt like he didn't do anything wrong and that the system would work and never press charges against him. Little did he know that our legal system no longer works like the blindfolded symbol that is used to portray it. He didn't realize that when politics get involved and people like Angela Corey get involved, your rights are thrown away and power of the state can marshalled against you with no attempt of giving you any benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, the system did work - but only after successfully destroying a person whose primary motivation was nothing more than helping keep his neighborhood safe.

So the cops tell Zimmerman to stay in his car and he wants to play hero and ends up killing someone walking back to his house. They have a struggle and Zimmerman fears for his like but you think he would of got some blows in but not a mark on martin. Martin is strattling him with his legs tight up against zimmermans legs but magically he is able to unholster his gun and shoot martin. Lousy prosecution.

[Senak224]

The entire Zimmerman case from start to finish is sadly typical of the forces that motivate this country. If certain elements of this country are unhappy about a situation they use the media to peruse their agenda. The remainder of the country sits back and says nothing.
If the outcome of the case resulted in Zimmerman found guilty or initially in his death the liberal media and others would remain silent.

[tucson]

The testimony was that GZ was "squirming" to get out from under TM tight hold of GZ body and in doing so,GZ's jacket rose up over his waist and TM saw his gun which in turn made GZ afraid that TM would grab it (in fact he testified that he felt TM sliding his hand down towards his stomach area towards the gun and that's how GZ was able to reach for his gun.

[njbchbum]

The 'more responsible way' was simply not to have put himself into the deadly force situation. The juror asserts that GZ had the opportunity to do that and chose not to. Again, I'm focusing on what happened BEFORE the deadly incident, just as my example of not securing a gun which may come well before a tragedy.

i thought the juror said that both tm and gz chose to enter into the confrontation - neither party chose the kind of responsibility of which you post.

[njbchbum]

I assume the term circling the car means he was close enough for the defendant to talk with him.

Why do we even have to consider TM position in life? He was not the defendant.

shucks, monkei, i don't recall reading or watching testimony that stated either tm circles gz's car of the gz circled tm with his car! was not aware of either scenario!

[ijusluvit]

Zimmerman did not place himself into a deadly force situation. Martin placed Zimmerman into the deadly force situation.

Wow, even after what the juror said I am astounded that you could possibly believe the exact opposite.

[AJ32162]

Wow, even after what the juror said I am astounded that you could possibly believe the exact opposite.

If Martin hadn't given Zimmerrman the "beat down", Zimmerman would not have needed to use deadly force. I fail to see how you cannot see that.

[ijusluvit]

If Martin hadn't given Zimmerrman the "beat down", Zimmerman would not have needed to use deadly force. I fail to see how you cannot see that.

Obviously you have completely ignored all of my earlier posts. Have a nice day.

[AJ32162]

Obviously you have completely ignored all of my earlier posts. Have a nice day.

Oh, I've read them. But you are half right. I probably should have ignored them. Have a nice day!

[Golfingnut]

Wow, even after what the juror said I am astounded that you could possibly believe the exact opposite.

If I was Zimmerman, I would hope for a civil trial, then if convicted, file bankruptcy and move on from there. He shot and killed the man and there should be repercoustion, but not murder. They were both guilty of being too macho.

[dillywho]

shucks, monkei, i don't recall reading or watching testimony that stated either tm circles gz's car of the gz circled tm with his car! was not aware of either scenario!

It is exactly what GZ told the NEN operator when he was sitting at the clubhouse. It is on tape in his own voice and words. He also told the operator at that time that he could not hear what TM was saying because he was afraid to roll down the window.

[Kelsie52]

How is this !!

GZ follows TM because there have been breakins all around

TM comes out from the darkness and asks GZ Do you have a problem with me ? --and he waits for an answer, GZ says --- I am with neihborhood watch --do you live around here and TM says --my dad lives right there --

Do you think GZ would have pulled his gun and shot him ???

[John_W]

How is this !!

GZ follows TM because there have been breakins all around

TM comes out from the darkness and asks GZ Do you have a problem with me ? --and he waits for an answer, GZ says --- I am with neihborhood watch --do you live around here and TM says --my dad lives right there --

Do you think GZ would have pulled his gun and shot him ???

That's exactly how the scenario would of played out in about 95% of the neighborhoods in our country. However, if you listened to his friend Chantel for more than a couple of minutes, and this is the person he was deep into conversation with. It's pretty obvious that communications skills were not at the forefront for Trayvon and Chantel. For Trayvon, his thoughts were 'whose this creepy ass cracker following me.'

[Monkei]

shucks, monkei, i don't recall reading or watching testimony that stated either tm circles gz's car of the gz circled tm with his car! was not aware of either scenario!

In the GZ video of he crime scene he stares that TM circled his car and he signaled in what direction. Maybe the video was not part of the trial but it was shown a million times on TV

[Monkei]

That's exactly how the scenario would of played out in about 95% of the neighborhoods in our country. However, if you listened to his friend Chantel for more than a couple of minutes, and this is the person he was deep into conversation with. It's pretty obvious that communications skills were not at the forefront for Trayvon and Chantel. For Trayvon, his thoughts were 'whose this creepy ass cracker following me.'

Wow if he only knew how truthful his statement was.

[Monkei]

People PLEASE this was not a stand your ground case - it was self defense. And the jury had to decide if George Zimmerman acted in self defense - period. Not who should have stayed in their car, who threw the first punch, not if Trayvon should have called 911 or run home if he was frightened, but if Zimmerman honestly believed his life was in danger and was justified in defending himself.

Self defense. Did TM have that same right? A white guy with a gun following a black kid can only result in something bad happening. No one knows, and no one, besides GZ, if TM ever saw the gun, especially before he jumped him.

I would never trust someone who assaulted a police officer in his past to ever be of sound mind and never trustworthy. You have to be pretty darn stupid to jump a cop.

[Monkei]

There is/was no need to include it because it is/was IRRELEVANT to the case!

How odd and convenient.

[njbchbum]

Zimmerman did not place himself into a deadly force situation. Martin placed Zimmerman into the deadly force situation.

Wow, even after what the juror said I am astounded that you could possibly believe the exact opposite.

here's a link to the transcript of the cooper/juror37 interview that should clarify what really was said rather than what anyone thinks the juror said:

CNN transcript details juror's insights on Zimmerman verdict - Page 7 - Sun Sentinel (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-07-15/news/sfl-zimmerman-juror-cnn-transcript-0716_1_george-zimmerman-first-juror-opening-statements/7)

[njbchbum]

It is exactly what GZ told the NEN operator when he was sitting at the clubhouse. It is on tape in his own voice and words. He also told the operator at that time that he could not hear what TM was saying because he was afraid to roll down the window.

thanx, dillywho! missed that part with the talking heads as well as in the televised trial. but i would not have rolled down my window either! - wouldn't even roll it down for a man in a uniform unless i was in a well=-it area with folks around! but then, i'm not male and am a long way from being 17 and brave! ;)

[njbchbum]

In the GZ video of he crime scene he stares that TM circled his car and he signaled in what direction. Maybe the video was not part of the trial but it was shown a million times on TV

thanx! as i posted to dillywho, i missed that with the talking heads and televised trial. if it was not a part of the trial, it could not be used by either side or the jury in their deliberation - right?

[gomoho]

I would never trust someone who assaulted a police officer in his past to ever be of sound mind and never trustworthy. You have to be pretty darn stupid to jump a cop.

Actually my son was involved in an almost identical altercation. Young and dumb in a bar and a buddy gets thrown down the stairs by the bouncers and the police are immediately on hit butt. My son sticks his nose in the business and asks the cops why they are arresting his friend and BOOM he is cuffed and thrown in the car too. Was reduced, just as GZ's charges were 'cause the police just plain overreacted and there was a small fine and dismissed.