Something I am pondering

[perrjojo]

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, i(it happened once before) that the same people who are so appalled that a child (Trayvon Martin) was killed are often the same people who favor abortion. I hope I will not be slammed for this comment because it is something I am sincerely pondering at this time. I just don't know what to think but it seems a pattern to me. Maybe I am wrong...maybe not.

[wannab]

And by the same token, those in favor of no abortions are generally in favor of the death penalty. It's a strange world we live in these days...everything has two sides to it; there are no absolutes any longer. Sometimes I wonder (and ponder) what is progress?

[Hancle704]

And I'm wondering why there has been little or no outcry about the murders and violence in Chicago from the same folks who are now demonstrating and threatening Federal Civil Rights Action.

[CFrance]

And I'm wondering if the first two posters will back up their opinions with facts.

[KeepingItReal]

And by the same token, those in favor of no abortions are generally in favor of the death penalty.

Protecting innocent babies that have absolutely no way of defending or speaking out and punishing those found guilty of knowingly committing heinous murders is the difference and an understandable reason to be against abortions for just birth control and yet be for the death penalty in certain cases.

[perrjojo]

And I'm wondering if the first two posters will back up their opinions with facts.

I did not say I have an opinion based on fact, only thoughts that I am processing. Perhaps you have facts to help me clarify my mind.

[janmcn]

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, i(it happened once before) that the same people who are so appalled that a child (Trayvon Martin) was killed are often the same people who favor abortion. I hope I will not be slammed for this comment because it is something I am sincerely pondering at this time. I just don't know what to think but it seems a pattern to me. Maybe I am wrong...maybe not.


I don't think many people are in favor of abortions, but most people are in favor of a woman being able to choose what she does with her own body. On the other hand, some people are so extreme in making sure every fetus is born, but after that they want nothing to do with providing services to every child.

[karostay]

Who in their right mind would be sick enough to even remotely make such a comparison.

[perrjojo]

Who in their right mind would be sick enough to even remotely make such a comparison.

Wow! You don't even know me and suggest that I am sick! Amazing! I am so sorry that you feel that way! Sorry that you cannot see a life is a life! No, I am not against pro choice, there are just things that don't always make sense to me as I need to consider all sides of issues. Why is it so easy to make annoynomus remarks that you would not make to a persons face. I hoped my post would cause people to stop and think and give opinions, not condemnation.

[kittygilchrist]

I'm wondering why I keep going on TOTV?
It helps me know how differently we all think. It's amazing how you can think like you do and how could you, and I don't think your way, and how could I?
and yes we all have blind spots and hold contradictory beliefs without noticing that it should cause us cognitive dissonance but does not until someone points it out, like you are all doing.

[perrjojo]

I don't think many people are in favor of abortions, but most people are in favor of a woman being able to choose what she does with her own body. On the other hand, some people are so extreme in making sure every fetus is born, but after that they want nothing to do with providing services to every child.


I do agree with your thoughts.

[MikeV]

I am indifferent to the abortion subject. That being said, I always wonder when the issue of a woman being able to choose what she does with her body why we don't consider that she is doing something to the child's body much more damaging. I have never known anyone who admits to having an abortion and I don't understand in todays times why an unwanted pregnancy even happens except in rape or incest of course. There is such easy access to contraceptives and now the morning after pill so why are the thousands of abortions still being done. Just my thoughts.

[De Lis]

And I'm wondering why there has been little or no outcry about the murders and violence in Chicago from the same folks who are now demonstrating and threatening Federal Civil Rights Action.

In Chicago, it's Black vs. Black.

In FL, it was a Black vs. a White Hispanic.

None of all of this killing makes any sense.

[Villages PL]

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, i(it happened once before) that the same people who are so appalled that a child (Trayvon Martin) was killed are often the same people who favor abortion. I hope I will not be slammed for this comment because it is something I am sincerely pondering at this time. I just don't know what to think but it seems a pattern to me. Maybe I am wrong...maybe not.

Friends, relatives and those who identify with the Trayvon Martin incident are appalled because they either knew him or identified with him. On the other hand, an aborted fetus is nameless and unknown, a non-person.

Legally, a woman has the right to choose and one thing that might stop her from choosing abortion is her moral conscience, if she has any.

[DaleMN]

There's a big old goofy man
Dancing with a big old goofy girl
Ooh, it's a big old goofy world. :doh:

[tommy steam]

And I'm wondering why there has been little or no outcry about the murders and violence in Chicago from the same folks who are now demonstrating and threatening Federal Civil Rights Action.

This is a great post. I have wondered about this for a long time.:BigApplause:

[bimmertl]

And I'm wondering why there has been little or no outcry about the murders and violence in Chicago from the same folks who are now demonstrating and threatening Federal Civil Rights Action.




Al Sharpton Chicago-Bound: Civil Rights Activist Renting Apartment In City To Address Violence (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/01/al-sharpton-chicago_n_3530152.html)

[zonerboy]

Many people consider human life to be sacred, and thus it is wrong to intentionally take the life of another. Preserving one's own life (self defense) is the only permissible exception to this rule.
Most people who oppose abortion do so because they believe a fetus is a human being and thus has a right to life. To be consistent in such a belief one must also consider those convicted of crimes to be human beings, and thus capital punishment should also be considered as morally wrong.
I will not argue as to just when a fetus becomes a human being. That would be the subject of an entirely different post.
Nor am I expressing my own personal beliefs here. I'm merely proposing an explanation in response to the OP's "pondering".

[De Lis]

Al Sharpton Chicago-Bound: Civil Rights Activist Renting Apartment In City To Address Violence (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/01/al-sharpton-chicago_n_3530152.html)

Where in the heck has Al been for nearly the past decade?? The racial issue is big news now, so he's striking while he can.

However, I still ask WHERE HAS HE BEEN? 500 shot last year and he was no where around.

[billethkid]

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, i(it happened once before) that the same people who are so appalled that a child (Trayvon Martin) was killed are often the same people who favor abortion. I hope I will not be slammed for this comment because it is something I am sincerely pondering at this time. I just don't know what to think but it seems a pattern to me. Maybe I am wrong...maybe not.

yes Martin like us all is someone's child!
However it really smacks of spin of one kind or another to intentionally (maybe unintentionally?) refer to him as "...a child was killed...".

In my opinion it sets a false (intended or not) ambiance to the subject.

btk

[Suzi]

Can you explain to me why he is referred by the press or media to as: Travon or "a child" (endearing). George Zimmerman, on the other hand, is referred to as: a racist, a white hispanic or Zimmerman. So much is said without being spoken.

[Monkei]

Protecting innocent babies that have absolutely no way of defending or speaking out and punishing those found guilty of knowingly committing heinous murders is the difference and an understandable reason to be against abortions for just birth control and yet be for the death penalty in certain cases.

We can t discuss politics and religion on this forum, I think abortion, which is th law of the land and not illegal, should also be banned from discussion.

[Monkei]

Can you explain to me why he is referred by the press or media to as: Travon or "a child" (endearing). George Zimmerman, on the other hand, is referred to as: a racist, a white hispanic or Zimmerman. So much is said without being spoken.

Where I come from being 17 years old is still considered a child, or a young man. What's wrong with that.

[graciegirl]

AOL On - Zimmerman Apologizes to Martin Family (http://on.aol.com/video/zimmerman-apologizes-to-martin-family-517340826)

[mickey100]

Many people consider human life to be sacred, and thus it is wrong to intentionally take the life of another. Preserving one's own life (self defense) is the only permissible exception to this rule.
Most people who oppose abortion do so because they believe a fetus is a human being and thus has a right to life. To be consistent in such a belief one must also consider those convicted of crimes to be human beings, and thus capital punishment should also be considered as morally wrong.
I will not argue as to just when a fetus becomes a human being. That would be the subject of an entirely different post.
Nor am I expressing my own personal beliefs here. I'm merely proposing an explanation in response to the OP's "pondering".

I agree. Also I wonder why some that oppose abortion think its okay to go out and murder doctors who perform abortions. No logic there if you really believe in the sanctity of life.

[tucson]

Can you explain to me why he is referred by the press or media to as: Travon or "a child" (endearing). George Zimmerman, on the other hand, is referred to as: a racist, a white hispanic or Zimmerman. So much is said without being spoken.

Because when the Martin's lawyers hired a PR firm to bring"awareness" way back before it went to trial, and after the Sanford PD did not press charges, they had to use the types of words & descriptions to inflame the public in order to motivate them to action of protests in the streets. They had to change the scenario of the facts of the true facts of self defense. One of those words- a "child" instead of "teenager". Why? When most people hear the word child, they picture a small, innocent child that can do no wrong. And so here we are today.... GZ being what is being labeled, a white (even though he's half Hispanic), racist (even though it's been proven he's not); and you have Martin being labeled a innocent child, (even though he was 17 and is far from innocent, with evidence to the fact that he was thrown out of school in Miami twice in 6mos, (that's how he ended up in Sanford at his father's girlfriend's apt. at Twin Lakes) for criminal activities by the Miami PD.

[janmcn]

Because when the Martin's lawyers hired a PR firm to bring"awareness" way back before it went to trial, and after the Sanford PD did not press charges, they had to use the types of words & descriptions to inflame the public in order to motivate them to action of protests in the streets. They had to change the scenario of the facts of the true facts of self defense. One of those words- a "child" instead of "teenager". Why? When most people hear the word child, they picture a small, innocent child that can do no wrong. And so here we are today.... GZ being what is being labeled, a white (even though he's half Hispanic), racist (even though it's been proven he's not); and you have Martin being labeled a innocent child, (even though he was 17 and is far from innocent, with evidence to the fact that he was thrown out of school in Miami twice in 6mos, (that's how he ended up in Sanford at his father's girlfriend's apt. at Twin Lakes) for criminal activities by the Miami PD.



Or it could just be that Florida law states that anyone under the age of 18 years old is considered a child. If posters have a problem with that definition, contact your local state representative to have the law changed.

[perrjojo]

I agree. Also I wonder why some that oppose abortion think its okay to go out and murder doctors who perform abortions. No logic there if you really believe in the sanctity of life.

I agree and something I "ponder" as well.

[perrjojo]

We can t discuss politics and religion on this forum, I think abortion, which is th law of the land and not illegal, should also be banned from discussion.

I understand your reasoning but I do think it is sad that we cannot discuss things on which we disagree. If we can not put forth our ideas and thoughts, how will we ever understand each other? I wish we could discuss these things without such emotion and narrow minds. In my op I did not state a fact or even an an opinion. It was truly an idea that I was exploring. Unfortunately I do understand why it is best to not discuss these issues as many ugly and personal things get said in an anonymous forum. I just wish we did not have to always discuss only things on which we all agree.

Edit to this post...I reread my op and I guess I did offer an opinion. :-) but not an opinion that was not open to explore.

[tucson]

Or it could just be that Florida law states that anyone under the age of 18 years old is considered a child. If posters have a problem with that definition, contact your local state representative to have the law changed.

So, I'm glad that some "chidren" are being charged as adults.

[Monkei]

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, i(it happened once before) that the same people who are so appalled that a child (Trayvon Martin) was killed are often the same people who favor abortion. I hope I will not be slammed for this comment because it is something I am sincerely pondering at this time. I just don't know what to think but it seems a pattern to me. Maybe I am wrong...maybe not.

I don't think you are wrong at all. I can add to your thoughts.

Those who support GZ usually favor no immigration reform.
Those who support GZ usually support no medical insurance reform.
Those who support GZ usually are not in favor of additional background checks for gun ownership.

[Monkei]

I agree. Also I wonder why some that oppose abortion think its okay to go out and murder doctors who perform abortions. No logic there if you really believe in the sanctity of life.

Excellent. And those who are against right to choose who have nationally syndicated radio shows encourage listeners to commit murder of those doctors.

[graciegirl]

I agree. Also I wonder why some that oppose abortion think its okay to go out and murder doctors who perform abortions. No logic there if you really believe in the sanctity of life.

I agree.

[Monkei]

I understand your reasoning but I do think it is sad that we cannot discuss things on which we disagree. If we can not put forth our ideas and thoughts, how will we ever understand each other? I wish we could discuss these things without such emotion and narrow minds. In my op I did not state a fact or even an an opinion. It was truly an idea that I was exploring. Unfortunately I do understand why it is best to not discuss these issues as many ugly and personal things get said in an anonymous forum. I just wish we did not have to always discuss only things on which we all agree.

Edit to this post...I reread my op and I guess I did offer an opinion. :-) but not an opinion that was not open to explore.

I can agree with you, this board should have a section where people can openly discuss politics, religion and other topics but still not result to name calling and bitterness.

[Golfingnut]

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, i(it happened once before) that the same people who are so appalled that a child (Trayvon Martin) was killed are often the same people who favor abortion. I hope I will not be slammed for this comment because it is something I am sincerely pondering at this time. I just don't know what to think but it seems a pattern to me. Maybe I am wrong...maybe not.

You are right, YOUR WRONG... I strongly support a woman's right to choose and still am saddened by TM's short lived life.

[Golfingnut]

I don't think you are wrong at all. I can add to your thoughts.

Those who support GZ usually favor no immigration reform.
Those who support GZ usually support no medical insurance reform.
Those who support GZ usually are not in favor of additional background checks for gun ownership.

And these three plus the OP indicate to much macho and not enough heart and soul.
:throwtomatoes::throwtomatoes:

[tucson]

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, i(it happened once before) that the same people who are so appalled that a child (Trayvon Martin) was killed are often the same people who favor abortion. I hope I will not be slammed for this comment because it is something I am sincerely pondering at this time. I just don't know what to think but it seems a pattern to me. Maybe I am wrong...maybe not.

I am against murder on any person, a person inside of the womb, and/or outside of the womb.

[dillywho]

I can agree with you, this board should have a section where people can openly discuss politics, religion and other topics but still not result to name calling and bitterness.

There should be no name calling, period, regardless of the subject. Each of us is entitled to our own opinion. I don't agree with what everyone says, but I do agree with the right to say it. No person here is above the other and should be treated/act as such.

[perrjojo]

And these three plus the OP indicate to much macho and not enough heart and soul.
:throwtomatoes::throwtomatoes:
Wow! That is a first! I have never been called macho before. Also have never been accused of not having enough heart and soul. My op was to indicate that both cases are very sad. How is that not having enough heart and soul?

[perrjojo]

There should be no name calling, period, regardless of the subject. Each of us is entitled to our own opinion. I don't agree with what everyone says, but I do agree with the right to say it. No person here is above the other and should be treated/act as such.

I guess anonymity causes us to forget our manners and these are real people to whom we are responding.

[graciegirl]

I guess anonymity causes us to forget our manners and these are real people to whom we are responding.

Very true.

[Suzi]

Can you explain to me why he is referred by the press or media to as: Travon or "a child" (endearing). George Zimmerman, on the other hand, is referred to as: a racist, a white hispanic or Zimmerman. So much is said without being spoken.

The thrust of my post was that Travon is called by his first name or a child. Zimmerman is NEVER called by his first name - only derogatory names or his last name.

[Golfingnut]

Wow! That is a first! I have never been called macho before. Also have never been accused of not having enough heart and soul. My op was to indicate that both cases are very sad. How is that not having enough heart and soul?

Attempting to compare murder of a young man to abortion is a stretch and insensitive to mothers of both categories. Please go back and read the other three examples.

[perrjojo]

Attempting to compare murder of a young man to abortion is a stretch and insensitive to mothers of both categories. Please go back and read the other three examples.

Perhaps it a stretch to you but not to me. I respect your opinion as you should mine. I have not said I am right and you are wrong nor have I made reference to what kind of person you are because I don't know, just as you don't know me. I have not tried to change your mind or insist your mind needs to be changed.

I wish we (all of us on TOTV) could express thoughts and ideas without having to be right or wrong. I wish we could express thoughts without having to convince someone we are right and they are wrong.

I wish we did not judge people that we do not know...not just on this forum but in other areas of our life as well.

So, your points are well taken.

[Golfingnut]

Perhaps it a stretch to you but not to me. I respect your opinion as you should mine. I have not said I am right and you are wrong nor have I made reference to what kind of person you are because I don't know, just as you don't know me. I have not tried to change your mind or insist your mind needs to be changed.

I wish we (all of us on TOTV) could express thoughts and ideas without having to be right or wrong. I wish we could express thoughts without having to convince someone we are right and they are wrong.

I wish we did not judge people that we do not know...not just on this forum but in other areas of our life as well.

So, your points are well taken.

When I voice my opinion about your opinion, I am not judging you, just stating a differing view. If you support the opinion of the pro life movement, that is judging. My position is that if they are wrong to abort a fetus, they will be judged in the end, but we do not have the right to judge them. I respect the right of anyone to believe abortion is murder, but I also respect the right of woman to decide on that issue for themselves without interference of any kind from radical fringe groups. Referring to them as murders is a judgement and not simply an opinion. If one believes a murder is about to happen or has been committed, it is the responsibility of all of us to contact the police and report it.
The police will inform you that is not against the law, and murder is against the law in all 50 states. So, in closing, Ido respect your opinion, please respect mine. Amen...

[graciegirl]

We aren't making things better by speaking so harshly. I think fringe groups in this instance is an incorrect term. I am a person who would find it very hard if not impossible to have an abortion but support the right to choose because there are instances that make having an abortion necessary, at least to me.

I am talking of rape, incest, medical situations and extreme poverty and inability of the mother to handle the pregnancy emotionally, mentally or physically.

I think responsible people think long and hard about these issues and some have decided that to them it is unethical. They have a right to their beliefs just as I have a right to mine. I don't think of them as fringe groups unless they are trying to blow up abortion clinics.

We have to have laws and either respect them or work to change them. Belittling others for their very sincere beliefs is not going to make things better.

[Golfingnut]

We aren't making things better by speaking so harshly. I think fringe groups in this instance is an incorrect term. I am a person who would find it very hard if not impossible to have an abortion but support the right to choose because there are instances that make having an abortion necessary, at least to me.

I am talking of rape, incest, medical situations and extreme poverty and inability of the mother to handle the pregnancy emotionally, mentally or physically.

I think responsible people think long and hard about these issues and some have decided that to them it is unethical. They have a right to their beliefs just as I have a right to mine. I don't think of them as fringe groups unless they are trying to blow up abortion clinics.

We have to have laws and either respect them or work to change them. Belittling others for their very sincere beliefs is not going to make things better.

Let me see if I understand you right. You are OK with abortion at least under certain circumstances. I AGREE. Yet you would not consider a person as on the fringe of normal if they referred to a woman as a murderer for having an abortion. There, I would disagree with you. I would call them antagonistic and foolish. If they would physically act on that view, I would call them terrorists. I love the fact that you and I agree most of the time.