Decent starting salaries

[buggyone]

I recently added to a thread that the starting salary for a Sumter County sheriff deputy was about $42,900 plus benefits. A couple of other posters thought this seemed low for a starting salary.

What do you think would be a fair starting salary for such a job in this part of Florida?

[asianthree]

with a degree needed and experience...and someone gets to shoot at you...a teaching degree gets you more money...i think its low

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I'd say if a qualified applicant can be found and is willing to take the job then that is a fair salary. if they keep hiring and firing one incompetent person after another they probably need to think about a salary increase.

People who do police work do it for many reason. Some simply love it and it's what they want to do. Government jobs usually provide great security and benefits. Some want the experience on their resume for future ambitions. I don't think most people get into law enforcement solely for the money.

Keep in mind that this is a starting salary. I would imagine that there are colas and other types of increases that may come over the years.

And as to the statement that "someone gets to shoot at you". When was the last time that you heard of an officer getting shot at? Granted, it happens but not as often as most people think. You're probably more likely to be shot if you're a convenience store clerk.

[PammyJ]

Just a few days ago a deputy was shot three times and survived. Last year Brevard county was mourning the death of a female officer who was shot and killed during a traffic stop. I remember one year there were about 5 officers killed in separate incidences in central Florida. My own brother-in-law was a police officer killed in the line of duty.There are many more who were shot, it happens more than you think!

[asianthree]

I'd say if a qualified applicant can be found and is willing to take the job then that is a fair salary. if they keep hiring and firing one incompetent person after another they probably need to think about a salary increase.

People who do police work do it for many reason. Some simply love it and it's what they want to do. Government jobs usually provide great security and benefits. Some want the experience on their resume for future ambitions. I don't think most people get into law enforcement solely for the money.

Keep in mind that this is a starting salary. I would imagine that there are colas and other types of increases that may come over the years.

And as to the statement that "someone gets to shoot at you". When was the last time that you heard of an officer getting shot at? Granted, it happens but not as often as most people think. You're probably more likely to be shot if you're a convenience store clerk.

sorry just from experience...one family member and two close friends shot and killed in the line of duty.. three too many in my life...

[DougB]

with a degree needed and experience...and someone gets to shoot at you...a teaching degree gets you more money...i think its low

Let's not make up facts, starting teacher salary in Sumter is over 10,000 less.

[Suzi]

Teachers have the summer off - to my knowledge deputies don't. Do the math.....

[DougB]

Teachers have the summer off - to my knowledge deputies don't. Do the math.....

Maybe you should do the math. 10 weeks of summer wouldn't get them 12,000 more. Plus the fact that the amount of time teachers spend working on top of their regular workday (nights, weekends, summer, etc) without pay.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Just a few days ago a deputy was shot three times and survived. Last year Brevard county was mourning the death of a female officer who was shot and killed during a traffic stop. I remember one year there were about 5 officers killed in separate incidences in central Florida. My own brother-in-law was a police officer killed in the line of duty.There are many more who were shot, it happens more than you think!

I'm sorry to hear about your brother in law, Pam. My father was a police officer for twenty-five years in the city where I grew up. He was never shot at.
In the past fifty years in that city, there was one officer that was shot and killed and it was primarily because of his own stupidity. He was in plain clothes and was going by a bar where something looked suspicious. He looked inside and saw a robbery in progress. Instead of calling for backup and waiting for more help to arrive, he burst into the room with his gun out and yelled "police". One of the armed robbers shot him.

It seems that the rate of officers shot and killed in central Florida is pretty high.
I still maintain that it is a pretty rare event. But you could be right.

[njbchbum]

Maybe you should do the math. 10 weeks of summer wouldn't get them 12,000 more. Plus the fact that the amount of time teachers spend working on top of their regular workday (nights, weekends, summer, etc) without pay.

i thought teachers were salaried whereas police were hourly. teachers only have to work 180 days per year, police maybe 250? at what grade level do you think teachers start working night/weekends? and what teacher works during the summer who is not paid for it?

[DougB]

i thought teachers were salaried whereas police were hourly. teachers only have to work 180 days per year, police maybe 250? at what grade level do you think teachers start working night/weekends? and what teacher works during the summer who is not paid for it?

Teachers work 196 days (180 days are with students). During those 180 days, a teacher only gets 40 minutes a day for planning lessons, grading papers, etc. Elementary teachers have to plan for 6 subjects each day. And with differentiated instruction to meet the needs of all the students, the teacher may need 3 lesson plans for each of these subjects. Tough to do in 40 minutes, wouldn't you say? I won't even get into how many hours are spent on designing assessments with open ended higher order questions the students have to respond to.
I know very few teachers at any grade level that begin and end their school day with the bell. Some teachers attend trainings and have to attend classes for professional development with no pay over the summer.
If your child has a good teacher, you can be assured, he/she is working every bit of 250 days in the 196 days they are paid.

[DaleMN]

Math sucks!!!! :boom:

[rubicon]

This comparison between teacher in cop will go nowhere. Back in the 1980's it was referred to as comparable worth. I spent a good time of my life writing job positions setting salary for every level in a company, etc. bottom line is the market dictates.

but let's focus in on local police. In lady Lake a few years back they advertised for police and stated the school requirements to be High School but a GED Equivalent would suffice. In other locations college is required.
Now focus on the community is it Chicago or the Friendliest Hometown in Florida. You get the picture. Also consider that duties may different for each locale

another aspect are the benefits. In some, jobs seekers, seek jobs because the benefits are generous and long term employment guarantees that the retiree and spouse will be set for life.

This is not a complete or exhaustive list of things I could cover here such as the job requirement working hours working conditions....there simply is not enough room but to be sure comparing one job from another take more than saying salary plus benefits

Now I am exhausted:pepper2:

[rubicon]

By the I forgot to mention this issue of the risk cops take. If that is a consideration then the guys in the armed forces are certainly well underpaid because they get shot at all the time

[DDoug]

Anyone who wants to put their face out there to possibly get shot at or killed deserve a good wage but that accounts for both teachers and police now days.Teachers or rather good teachers have been under paid for years especially elementary teachers. They pay for there own education. But then why would you want to walk around with a sign saying shoot me(police)then again why would you want to be looked down on sometimes for being an educator. I guess what I am saying we are all under paid for what we do. And for what we put up with .

[buggyone]

I did some research online and found out that the starting salary of $42,900 for a Sumter County deputy does not look too shabby when compared to others.

For example, New York City police (after 6 months in the academy) eary $46,288; Washington DC earns $48,715; Miami gets $46,583; and Chicago police begin at $43,104.

Given the crime rates (probability of more danger) of Sumter County vs any of those listed above as well as other things such as cost of living and taxes - I would say the Sumter County police starting salary is very good when compared to the above cities.

[kittygilchrist]

oh please, people. let's not get into teachers vs LEOS. Both are heroes and deserve more than they get. good grief. or as Gracie would say Boy Howdy.

[DougB]

There is no comparison at all. It is a discussion of decent starting salaries. Both under paid. The comment was made a teaching degree gets you more money. Just setting the record straight how poorly teachers are paid for the amount of work they do and the responsibility they have.

[PJUCTH]

Sisters husbands partn shot dead in central Fl. Bet the numbs are a lot higher than you know. Seeing already just a few of us have had the experience and I'm not from here

[DougB]

57 killed in the line of duty in the U.S. In 2012. 53 males, 4 females. Average age 42

[njbchbum]

Teachers work 196 days (180 days are with students). During those 180 days, a teacher only gets 40 minutes a day for planning lessons, grading papers, etc. Elementary teachers have to plan for 6 subjects each day. And with differentiated instruction to meet the needs of all the students, the teacher may need 3 lesson plans for each of these subjects. Tough to do in 40 minutes, wouldn't you say? I won't even get into how many hours are spent on designing assessments with open ended higher order questions the students have to respond to.
I know very few teachers at any grade level that begin and end their school day with the bell. Some teachers attend trainings and have to attend classes for professional development with no pay over the summer.
If your child has a good teacher, you can be assured, he/she is working every bit of 250 days in the 196 days they are paid.

guess it's a good thing my niece chose to teach phys ed/health and supervise study hall - not much lesson planning/testing there. and she is paid an additional stipend to serve as track coach.

and my friend who teaches special ed in middle school operates with curriculum/lessson plans/assessments provided under state guidelines - not much oppty to improvise there.

[Villages PL]

I recently added to a thread that the starting salary for a Sumter County sheriff deputy was about $42,900 plus benefits. A couple of other posters thought this seemed low for a starting salary.

What do you think would be a fair starting salary for such a job in this part of Florida?

Forget fairness, life isn't fair. The starting salary, from what I understand, is usually based on comparisons with other nearby communities. I guess you could call it "free-market economics". (Or at least it should be.) If some job doesn't pay enough, you're free to try your luck elsewhere. I'm not trying to be mean about it, just truthful.

[DougB]

Seventeen years ago, I ran for our local school board. It was in the middle of a huge battle between the NEA and the local school board. The average district teacher salary was $66k. Our teachers were mostly older and had masters as well, paid for by the school district, I might add. Additionally, teachers got bonuses for seat time, not performance, called longevity pay. They got bonuses for allowing their class size to exceed 24, IIRC, and a host of other incentives. Parent teacher conferences were held during the day, so teachers didn't have to stay late and students were given 1/2 day off during them.
The world revolved around the TEACHERS, not the students.

Times are different. This is 2013 and Florida. The highest salary for a teacher with a doctorate and 30 years experience in Sumter isn't even 66K. No incentives offered for class size either. Schools get fined if they go over class size. Many districts haven't given raises in the last 4-5 years.

[kittygilchrist]

There is no comparison at all. It is a discussion of decent starting salaries. Both under paid. The comment was made a teaching degree gets you more money. Just setting the record straight how poorly teachers are paid for the amount of work they do and the responsibility they have.

I know you have to set it straight. Tchrs are pathetically compensated in FL.
I'm just bugged by anybody in either profession being put on the grill.

[PammyJ]

guess it's a good thing my niece chose to teach phys ed/health and supervise study hall - not much lesson planning/testing there. and she is paid an additional stipend to serve as track coach.

and my friend who teaches special ed in middle school operates with curriculum/lessson plans/assessments provided under state guidelines - not much oppty to improvise there.

For those who are not aware, education is in a paradigm shift throughout the nation. There is more to the above examples. Exceptional Education teachers are angels in this field. They have way more laws and regulations to deal with for each and every student. I would venture to say if the above examples were true, then these teachers are not going to be on easy street for long. 46 states are under this transition. Yes, there are some jobs that are less work than others. Exceptional Education is not one of them! You can be sure if you are teaching core courses, teachers are using provided lesson plans and text books as a resource, the state standards at the students level is the curriculum. Teachers may make it look easy, but trust me, understanding the level of rigor needed for each standard and at the level needed to progress each student takes time, dedication, and training.
Education is not the same as it was when I got into it. Accountability is keeping educators working hard and on their toes- sometimes feeling like we have to achieve the impossible! We keep stretching ourselves and plugging along to take the students to a level they never expected to achieve. We are teaching dual set of standards this school year. One set to be measured by FCAT, the other set to be measured by PARRC in 2014-2015 school year - HA! We are working our tails off! And that's all I have to say about that!
Go police officers and educators!!!! I know this thread started with the salary conversation, but I am very passionate about the work of my profession, have to defend it!:rant-rave:

[kittygilchrist]

[QUOTE]Go police officers and educators!!!! I know this thread started with the salary conversation, but I am very passionate about the work of my profession, have to defend it! [QUOTE]

Some of us wouldn't take any amount to do what you do. From my experience with GED teachers, none of them did it for the money.

[DougB]

guess it's a good thing my niece chose to teach phys ed/health and supervise study hall - not much lesson planning/testing there. and she is paid an additional stipend to serve as track coach.

and my friend who teaches special ed in middle school operates with curriculum/lessson plans/assessments provided under state guidelines - not much oppty to improvise there.

She has every opportunity and to meet the individual needs of Special Ed students she is required to.

[mitchbr47]

Seventeen years ago, I ran for our local school board. It was in the middle of a huge battle between the NEA and the local school board. The average district teacher salary was $66k. Our teachers were mostly older and had masters as well, paid for by the school district, I might add. Additionally, teachers got bonuses for seat time, not performance, called longevity pay. They got bonuses for allowing their class size to exceed 24, IIRC, and a host of other incentives. Parent teacher conferences were held during the day, so teachers didn't have to stay late and students were given 1/2 day off during them.
The world revolved around the TEACHERS, not the students.

I was a teacher in SE Michigan in the time frame you mentioned and a few years afterwards. With a Masters I think I eventually made 64K. I paid for my own tuition for my second degree. We purchased supplies out of our own pocket. There were 2 or 3 hours of additional work each day. You get what you put into it. There was evening Open House when the year started and 4 nights of parent teacher conferences- 2 each semester. There were 2 days of afternoon conferences a year. Yes there was a 1/2 day comp time after teaching and working consecutive evening. I usually had 95-100% of parents attending. 2 days of training at the start of the year was required. My class size varied. Many years I had 32-35 students. One year I had 22 students. The union and administration worked well for the best interest of the students. It was a rewarding job with high student achievement. All districts are not the same. I guess I was fortunate.

Of course the students had the half day off during daytime conferences. I do recall when there was a large class size they had a sub for a hour or 2. Of course I had to write the lesson plans. Yes there were districts where there was not a healthy working relationship between teachers, administration, and the school board. In those situations the students and community loose.

[BarryRX]

I'd say if a qualified applicant can be found and is willing to take the job then that is a fair salary. if they keep hiring and firing one incompetent person after another they probably need to think about a salary increase.

People who do police work do it for many reason. Some simply love it and it's what they want to do. Government jobs usually provide great security and benefits. Some want the experience on their resume for future ambitions. I don't think most people get into law enforcement solely for the money.

Keep in mind that this is a starting salary. I would imagine that there are colas and other types of increases that may come over the years.

And as to the statement that "someone gets to shoot at you". When was the last time that you heard of an officer getting shot at? Granted, it happens but not as often as most people think. You're probably more likely to be shot if you're a convenience store clerk.

Not the point at all! These are the people that run towards the sound of gunfire when the rest of us are taking cover. They may never be placed in that situation, but when they are, it has been my experience that they perform with valor. I guess random violence can find anyone of us, but I know my wife wasn't worried about my safety when I went to work. Cops wives (or husbands) live with that constant fear.

[Indydealmaker]

I'd say if a qualified applicant can be found and is willing to take the job then that is a fair salary. if they keep hiring and firing one incompetent person after another they probably need to think about a salary increase.

People who do police work do it for many reason. Some simply love it and it's what they want to do. Government jobs usually provide great security and benefits. Some want the experience on their resume for future ambitions. I don't think most people get into law enforcement solely for the money.

Keep in mind that this is a starting salary. I would imagine that there are colas and other types of increases that may come over the years.

And as to the statement that "someone gets to shoot at you". When was the last time that you heard of an officer getting shot at? Granted, it happens but not as often as most people think. You're probably more likely to be shot if you're a convenience store clerk.

So far this year 57 Florida officers have died in the line of duty. 19 have perished by gunfire.

[njbchbum]

For those who are not aware, education is in a paradigm shift throughout the nation. There is more to the above examples. Exceptional Education teachers are angels in this field. They have way more laws and regulations to deal with for each and every student. I would venture to say if the above examples were true, then these teachers are not going to be on easy street for long. 46 states are under this transition. Yes, there are some jobs that are less work than others. Exceptional Education is not one of them! You can be sure if you are teaching core courses, teachers are using provided lesson plans and text books as a resource, the state standards at the students level is the curriculum. Teachers may make it look easy, but trust me, understanding the level of rigor needed for each standard and at the level needed to progress each student takes time, dedication, and training.
Education is not the same as it was when I got into it. Accountability is keeping educators working hard and on their toes- sometimes feeling like we have to achieve the impossible! We keep stretching ourselves and plugging along to take the students to a level they never expected to achieve. We are teaching dual set of standards this school year. One set to be measured by FCAT, the other set to be measured by PARRC in 2014-2015 school year - HA! We are working our tails off! And that's all I have to say about that!
Go police officers and educators!!!! I know this thread started with the salary conversation, but I am very passionate about the work of my profession, have to defend it!:rant-rave:

pammyj - you don't hafta preach to me - my niece in s.c. is fought every day by a school system that tells her they do not have to accept the diagnosis, confirmation and confirmation of that confirmation of her son's autism! it would be nice to find aomeone, anyone who would work for the good of that child - wouldn't it?

[njbchbum]

She has every opportunity and to meet the individual needs of Special Ed students she is required to.

doug - it's n.j. - one does not veer from the guidelines - one adheres to them or one suffers consequences - most frustrating for her!

[JP]

I think both teachers and cops are in the profession they are because they love what they do. The salary is a secondary consideration and people that pay that salary are aware of this and that is why the starting salaries are relatively low.

We are all fortunate to have these types of dedicated people around.

[DougB]

Thank you swat team in Hialeah today!

[DougB]

nj,
i have no knowledge of how things work in NJ or SC. Thought we were discussing salaries in Central Florida.
Also, I have nothing but praise for those heroic officers in South Florida today. You couldn't pay me enough to do what they did today.

[PammyJ]

pammyj - you don't hafta preach to me - my niece in s.c. is fought every day by a school system that tells her they do not have to accept the diagnosis, confirmation and confirmation of that confirmation of her son's autism! it would be nice to find aomeone, anyone who would work for the good of that child - wouldn't it?

When my son was diagnosed with mild to moderate autism 22 years ago. This was around the start of the surge of children being diagnosed. He was considered a behavior problem, paddled and suspended numerous times. I fought with the system as well throughout his school years. I chose to keep him in special education classes to shield him from those who did not understand this disability. He earned a "special diploma." on his own after he graduated he went to evening classes and earned his GED. It is much better now than it ever has been. There are so many children with this diagnosis, that it has to be proven that his disability is affecting his learning. In my experience, educators are sensitive to this. However, I can imagine there are places that may not be. As you can imagine, any school I work in, I can spot them immediately. While these students are in my care, I do what I can. Public school is not for everyone. There are special charters in some areas that may cater to special needs children. Choices are plentiful in some areas. Best of luck to your family. Autism is a lifelong struggle for those who have it. I feel very blessed to have my son and to have the opportunity to help others on the spectrum.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I think both teachers and cops are in the profession they are because they love what they do. The salary is a secondary consideration and people that pay that salary are aware of this and that is why the starting salaries are relatively low.

We are all fortunate to have these types of dedicated people around.

I think that there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. If the salaries are not high enough, no one will take the job. If the salaries in a particular profession are low, people will not get degrees in enter into those fields. As much as teachers or cops or anyone else for that matter complain that they are underpaid, they are the ones who decided to go into that field and they are the ones who accepted those positions. The person being hired is the one who ultimately decides what they are willing to work for.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Thank you swat team in Hialeah today!

It looks like they did an excellent job and handled a very difficult situation as well as it could have been handled. Congratulations and thanks to all of them and all who decide to go into that line of work.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

So far this year 57 Florida officers have died in the line of duty. 19 have perished by gunfire.

And every one of those is a great loss. I don't mean to minimize their deaths but there are over one million law enforcement officers in this country. So, 57 seven out of 1 million. Since the original poster brought up being shot at, that's 19 out of 1 million.

I mourn for every one of those deaths, As I said my father was a police officer.

But the numbers say that the odds are in their favor.

The other issue as far as money goes, (and we are discussing how much they make) is that many LEOs have the ability to work details. My father did this for years and often doubled his annual salary. They earned 1-1/2 to double their normal hourly wage for details. AT $42,000 an officer can make an additional $30,000 by working an additional 20 hours a week.

I worked 60 hours a week for most of my life and never made $72,000

[jbdlfan]

Times are different. This is 2013 and Florida. The highest salary for a teacher with a doctorate and 30 years experience in Sumter isn't even 66K. No incentives offered for class size either. Schools get fined if they go over class size. Many districts haven't given raises in the last 4-5 years.

Doug, right on the money! Marion County teachers start about $36,000. You don't hit $40,000 until your 10 year unless you have your Masters. Not to mention, I've been the district for 7 years and have received one raise since starting. Not a complaint, just a fact. Those that say we work 196 days with summer off, HAHAHAHAHAHA! That's comical. Myself and many of my hardworking colleagues are still at school past 6 pm at night and taking work home with us then. You don't just write up a lesson plan, present it, and then you are done. You analyze and evaluate the results to check for understanding. But......to get back to the original idea about pay in Central Florida, teachers and cops are significantly underpaid. Florida is a Right to Work state that still has unions. Unfortunately, in my case, the union is costing me thousands of dollars a year. But I absolutely love what I do, so money is no object.

[BarryRX]

And every one of those is a great loss. I don't mean to minimize their deaths but there are over one million law enforcement officers in this country. So, 57 seven out of 1 million. Since the original poster brought up being shot at, that's 19 out of 1 million.

I mourn for every one of those deaths, As I said my father was a police officer.

But the numbers say that the odds are in their favor.

The other issue as far as money goes, (and we are discussing how much they make) is that many LEOs have the ability to work details. My father did this for years and often doubled his annual salary. They earned 1-1/2 to double their normal hourly wage for details. AT $42,000 an officer can make an additional $30,000 by working an additional 20 hours a week.

I worked 60 hours a week for most of my life and never made $72,000

I once again respectfully submit that the numbers are not the issue. While being a police officer isn't even in the top ten most dangerous jobs (being a fisherman or a forestry worker or a pilot is more dangerous than being a cop or even a soldier in Falujah), these are the people that run towards danger! But numbers are misleading. While there are about 900,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the country, about 155 on average die in the line of duty each year, and half of those fatalities are from traffic incidents. However, it does not include the nearly 58,000 assaults on police officers that occur while protecting us.

[rubicon]

As I stated in my original post the market primarily determines job salaries in a community. Of course unions skew market development.

What I had learned in Human Resources is that every employee at every level believes they are under paid, Every employee survey comes back with that same perception. also compensation the biggest factor until you starting asking about benefit working conditions.

What people must remember is that they choose their means of making a living.

[buggyone]

As I stated in my original post the market primarily determines job salaries in a community. Of course unions skew market development.

What I had learned in Human Resources is that every employee at every level believes they are under paid, Every employee survey comes back with that same perception. also compensation the biggest factor until you starting asking about benefit working conditions.

What people must remember is that they choose their means of making a living.

Very good and very accurate post, Rubicon.

I found out those same things when I worked for 36 years in HR for the Federal government.

When I was in my senior year of college (after being in the Army), I decided I wanted a steady job for a career. I took the Federal Service Entrance Exam and with the extra points added for being a disabled vet, I was lucky enough to be selected in the Veterans Administration Personnel Intern program. I knew I would never get rich but I am very glad I took the advice of my father and chose that as my career.

[Monkei]

I recently added to a thread that the starting salary for a Sumter County sheriff deputy was about $42,900 plus benefits. A couple of other posters thought this seemed low for a starting salary.

What do you think would be a fair starting salary for such a job in this part of Florida?

It takes a special person to be a cop. I know some who would take even less to be one.

[festusrules]

i thought teachers were salaried whereas police were hourly. teachers only have to work 180 days per year, police maybe 250? at what grade level do you think teachers start working night/weekends? and what teacher works during the summer who is not paid for it?

My daughter is a 6th grade teacher with 5 years experience. She works many extra hours during the school year and the summer (including yesterday and today). The only pay she received was a couple days when she taught a course to others in her grade level within the district ( she was chosen for this task because of her skills and knowledge learned in her Masters program). I once thought of teachers having 3 months off during the summer. I now know better. There may be a few teachers who work minimal hours, but my daughter and her peers put more into a job that most of us could not do. She deals with kids who come from broken homes, low incomes, parents who have drug problems, etc, etc.

A proud parent of a GREAT Teacher.

[jbdlfan]

What state does your daughter live in? I can assure you that here in MI, teachers will tell you that the biggest benefit they get for being a teacher is June, July and August.

The most important part of Festurules quote is that they are the parent of a "Great Teacher."
Great teachers don't get the summer off nor would they ever anyways, they are busy perfecting their craft.

[graciegirl]

As I stated in my original post the market primarily determines job salaries in a community. Of course unions skew market development.

What I had learned in Human Resources is that every employee at every level believes they are under paid, Every employee survey comes back with that same perception. also compensation the biggest factor until you starting asking about benefit working conditions.

What people must remember is that they choose their means of making a living.

Ah...the wisdom of Sage. Another wonderful insight, Rubicon.

[rjm1cc]

I recently added to a thread that the starting salary for a Sumter County sheriff deputy was about $42,900 plus benefits. A couple of other posters thought this seemed low for a starting salary.

What do you think would be a fair starting salary for such a job in this part of Florida?
Marion County is $ 28500. The Sheriff would like to increase it but does not have the funds.

[logdog]

Starting salary in the military is currently just under $20,400 per year plus benefits. They all work a lot more than 40 hours per week, get no overtime, frequently get shot at and almost all experience long family separations. Dispite all that and more, they're all volunteers.

[DougB]

My kids went to a "Blue Ribbon School" and even there some of the old-timers used mimeographed papers. The equipment hasn't even existed in the last 20 years or more. How much perfecting do you think those teachers were doing over the summer?

Hard to believe you ran for your local school board. Did you get any votes????

[CFrance]

Teacher unions are powerful up north. And they don't give a damn about the students.

“When school children start paying union dues, that 's when I'll start representing the interests of school children.”

Albert Shanker, President of the Teachers Union (United Federation of Teachers) from 1964 to 1984 as well as President of the Teachers Union (American Federation of Teachers) from 1974 to 1997.

Obviously in need of term limits.

[mrfixit]

Starting salary in the military is currently just under $20,400 per year plus benefits.
>>>post was shortened<<<

The 20,400 plus is for non-coms (non-College Grads).

Three of my nephews joined the Military right after Graduating College.

#1. Just graduated College Dec 2012...
.................................joined as 2nd Lieutenant.............$ 44,500.

#2. Been in for 38 months ...
................................currently a 1st Lieutenant.............$ 52,200.

#3 Been in for 57 months...
....at 48 months was told he would be made
Captain if he re-upped............... now as Captain.............$ 58,800.

All pay $ straight from each Nephew.
All rates Base pay plus Allowances.

All are currently Stateside.
# 3 did Two tours in Iraq. 3+ miles from Combat zones as
2nd Lieutenant. Was Super for a Wrench Shop (motor pool).

BONUS....All will get College Loan $$$$$ paid by military.

[PammyJ]

What state does your daughter live in? I can assure you that here in MI, teachers will tell you that the biggest benefit they get for being a teacher is June, July and August.
What teacher gets June, July, and August off? Teachers are already back getting ready for the kids and they are not getting paid yet. They are officially back next week where I live, they don't have the month of August off.

[logdog]

The 20,400 plus is for non-coms (non-College Grads).

Three of my nephews joined the Military right after Graduating College.

#1. Just graduated College Dec 2012...
.................................joined as 2nd Lieutenant.............$ 44,500.

#2. Been in for 38 months ...
................................currently a 1st Lieutenant.............$ 52,200.

#3 Been in for 57 months...
....at 48 months was told he would be made
Captain if he re-upped............... now as Captain.............$ 58,800.



Minimum qualifications for a Sumter County Sheriff Deputy is a high school diploma or GED.

[Walt.]

So far this year 57 Florida officers have died in the line of duty. 19 have perished by gunfire.

Actually that's nationwide. Only 2 from Florida, and one of those was an auto accident. Interesting fact though... of the 19 killed by gunfire SIX were killed in California.

[Indydealmaker]

Actually that's nationwide. Only 2 from Florida, and one of those was an auto accident. Interesting fact though... of the 19 killed by gunfire SIX were killed in California.

Thanks for the correction. I need to start paying attention the links from which I quote.

[DougB]

State law says that MI public schools can't start before the Tuesday after Labor Day. Teachers start a day earlier to prepare, then have the holiday off. The law requires 180 school days, but most districts don't even hit that mark.

Don't really care about state law in MI. If you are saying the school system in MI sucks, I would have no idea. Please don't base your opinion of teachers and the educational system in FL on what you feel is a failure of your state's system.

[PammyJ]

I cannot resist, maybe I am wrong... Teachers or retired teachers,
Who CAN GET READY FOR A SCHOOL YEAR IN ONE DAY? LOL, Usually preplanning WEEK isn't enough! Anyone who knows have any thoughts on this?

Looks like MI is trying to tighten Standards by adopting the Common Core, good move!

Also, if school starts after labor day, chances of the school year ending at least midway into June are pretty high, unless less than 180 days as the data told us on Auto 's post. However, likelihood that the data has changed for it is a few years old.

Education is a thankless profession. Please don't generalize all education and educators as not caring about what is best for kids! You will find there are many more quality teachers than bad ones. The bad ones are the only ones that people hear about, and all are put into that category, therefore people may make uniformed judgements!

[graciegirl]

I cannot resist, maybe I am wrong... Teachers or retired teachers,
Who CAN GET READY FOR A SCHOOL YEAR IN ONE DAY? LOL, Usually preplanning WEEK isn't enough! Anyone who knows have any thoughts on this?

Looks like MI is trying to tighten Standards by adopting the Common Core, good move!

Also, if school starts after labor day, chances of the school year ending at least midway into June are pretty high, unless less than 180 days as the data told us on Auto 's post. However, likelihood that the data has changed for it is a few years old.

Education is a thankless profession. Please don't generalize all education and educators as not caring about what is best for kids! You will find there are many more quality teachers than bad ones. The bad ones are the only ones that people hear about, and all are put into that category, therefore people may make uniformed judgements!

In my personal experience for myself and raising two children and knowing because I lived nearby what happened with our two grandchildren, I have run across in all of that time, ONLY three disappointing teachers. NOT awful, just not really good.

[CFrance]

I cannot resist, maybe I am wrong... Teachers or retired teachers,
Who CAN GET READY FOR A SCHOOL YEAR IN ONE DAY? LOL, Usually preplanning WEEK isn't enough! Anyone who knows have any thoughts on this?

Looks like MI is trying to tighten Standards by adopting the Common Core, good move!

Also, if school starts after labor day, chances of the school year ending at least midway into June are pretty high, unless less than 180 days as the data told us on Auto 's post. However, likelihood that the data has changed for it is a few years old.

Education is a thankless profession. Please don't generalize all education and educators as not caring about what is best for kids! You will find there are many more quality teachers than bad ones. The bad ones are the only ones that people hear about, and all are put into that category, therefore people may make uniformed judgements!

For anyone's information, the reason school in MI cannot start until after Labor Day is because tourism is so big there, with a big lobby, and they pushed that law through during Jennifer Granholm's administration.

There was a lot of $ lost over people not vacationing over Labor Day Weekend.

[DougB]

For anyone's information, the reason school in MI cannot start until after Labor Day is because tourism is so big there, with a big lobby, and they pushed that law through during Jennifer Granholm's administration.

There was a lot of $ lost over people not vacationing over Labor Day Weekend.

Tourism a lot bigger in Florida than Michigan. Businesses attempted to push back the start of school here also, not for just the visitors but to keep those high school kids who worked at the tourist destinations over the summer working through labor day.

[CFrance]

Tourism a lot bigger in Florida than Michigan. Businesses attempted to push back the start of school here also, not for just the visitors but to keep those high school kids who worked at the tourist destinations over the summer working through labor day.

Yeah, I'm not saying yay or nay to that. Maybe because MI tourism season is so limited as opposed to Florida's, they had a stronger argument.

I have no real opinion on this. For us Michiganders, it was nice to extend an August vacation. But once the kids were in varsity sports, they had to be in town for mid-August practice starts anyway.

[DougB]

Yeah, I'm not saying yay or nay to that. Maybe because MI tourism season is so limited as opposed to Florida's, they had a stronger argument.

I have no real opinion on this. For us Michiganders, it was nice to extend an August vacation. But once the kids were in varsity sports, they had to be in town for mid-August practice starts anyway.

So, are schools and teachers really as bad in MI as a certain poster wants us to believe? I know they got some great universities there!

[CFrance]

So, are schools and teachers really as bad in MI as a certain poster wants us to believe? I know they got some great universities there!

Compared to the school systems in NY and NJ, which we experienced with two kids in elementary and Jr. high in the '80s to '90s, I would say the MI schools lag behind a bit. But I am not condemning them. Our kids went on to good schools and became successful. There were definitely a couple teachers who needed to retire or be retired (burned out for good), but I don't blame the school system for that.

And yes, there are some great universities in MI. U of M and Wayne State in Detroit come to mind. Kalamazoo College is very top notch, as are some of the other private schools.

[johnboy]

Maybe you should do the math. 10 weeks of summer wouldn't get them 12,000 more. Plus the fact that the amount of time teachers spend working on top of their regular workday (nights, weekends, summer, etc) without pay.

Get real 180 days of teaching at best from 7:30am until 2:30pm which included a lunch period, home room, and time off between periods. 11 - 12 days off for Christmas and Easter, Thursday thru Sunday off at Thanksgiving along with 10 days in June, all of July, all of August. That doesn't even compare to the 2080 hour work year for the minimal employee and much more for more dedicated employees. Along with a very generous pension. Most people would gladly trade for those benefits. And please don't embarrass your self by saying they could have chosen that path also. They don't even compare to the engineering degrees, be it chemical, civil, or electrical degrees.

[johnboy]

Teachers have the summer off - to my knowledge deputies don't. Do the math.....

They have way more than just the summer off, try Easter, Christmas, 1 1/2 weeks in June, a week in September, Thursday thru Sunday for Thanksgiving and much shorter workday hours.

[CFrance]

Get real 180 days of teaching at best from 7:30am until 2:30pm which included a lunch period, home room, and time off between periods. 11 - 12 days off for Christmas and Easter, Thursday thru Sunday off at Thanksgiving along with 10 days in June, all of July, all of August. That doesn't even compare to the 2080 hour work year for the minimal employee and much more for more dedicated employees. Along with a very generous pension. Most people would gladly trade for those benefits. And please don't embarrass your self by saying they could have chosen that path also. They don't even compare to the engineering degrees, be it chemical, civil, or electrical degrees.

The salaries are not comparable. Back in the day, the benefits were poured on the teachers to compensate them for lower salaries. I think your description of a teacher's job is an oversimplication. And I wasn't a teacher.
I envy my teacher friends' benefits, but they didn't make anywhere near the salary my husband made in the corporate field.

[DougB]

Get real 180 days of teaching at best from 7:30am until 2:30pm which included a lunch period, home room, and time off between periods. 11 - 12 days off for Christmas and Easter, Thursday thru Sunday off at Thanksgiving along with 10 days in June, all of July, all of August. That doesn't even compare to the 2080 hour work year for the minimal employee and much more for more dedicated employees. Along with a very generous pension. Most people would gladly trade for those benefits. And please don't embarrass your self by saying they could have chosen that path also. They don't even compare to the engineering degrees, be it chemical, civil, or electrical degrees.

You didn't have even one of your "facts" correct. Only one that embarrassed themselves was you.

[jbdlfan]

Get real 180 days of teaching at best from 7:30am until 2:30pm which included a lunch period, home room, and time off between periods. 11 - 12 days off for Christmas and Easter, Thursday thru Sunday off at Thanksgiving along with 10 days in June, all of July, all of August. That doesn't even compare to the 2080 hour work year for the minimal employee and much more for more dedicated employees. Along with a very generous pension. Most people would gladly trade for those benefits. And please don't embarrass your self by saying they could have chosen that path also. They don't even compare to the engineering degrees, be it chemical, civil, or electrical degrees.

HAHAHAHAHA! Wow....just wow. You are sadly very uninformed about every one of your points! First...you have no idea about my pension, if you did, you would have never brought that up. Next, I work on AVERAGE 50-55 hours a week while school is in session. I work a good deal of my summer planning, unpaid training and data mining. As a master of my craft, I continually work at getting better by whatever means. If I work an extra three hours a day during the school year, which myself and many of my colleagues do, That is only 100 hours short of your golden 2080. Sorry, but I easily make that up on my weekends and summers. But hey, what do I know, I'm JUST a teacher....

[jbdlfan]

Oh, and I forgot, the $500 a year I spend out of my own pocket for supplies....

[DougB]

HAHAHAHAHA! Wow....just wow. You are sadly very uninformed about every one of your points! First...you have no idea about my pension, if you did, you would have never brought that up. Next, I work on AVERAGE 50-55 hours a week while school is in session. I work a good deal of my summer planning, unpaid training and data mining. As a master of my craft, I continually work at getting better by whatever means. If I work an extra three hours a day during the school year, which myself and many of my colleagues do, That is only 100 hours short of your golden 2080. Sorry, but I easily make that up on my weekends and summers. But hey, what do I know, I'm JUST a teacher....

I guess Johnnieboy is also unaware that school started today in Sumter Cty. So much for having August off.

[ilovetv]

Get real 180 days of teaching at best from 7:30am until 2:30pm which included a lunch period, home room, and time off between periods. 11 - 12 days off for Christmas and Easter, Thursday thru Sunday off at Thanksgiving along with 10 days in June, all of July, all of August. That doesn't even compare to the 2080 hour work year for the minimal employee and much more for more dedicated employees. Along with a very generous pension. Most people would gladly trade for those benefits. And please don't embarrass your self by saying they could have chosen that path also. They don't even compare to the engineering degrees, be it chemical, civil, or electrical degrees.

"Get real." "Most people" who gripe about teachers being overpaid are the same ones who cannot wait for their kids to go back to school in the fall, because they cannot manage and focus the energy of their own 2 kids, much less 20 or 30 kids in a classroom.

Such parents and "experts" would not last 2 hours in charge of a classroom of 20+ kids who get no parenting and no discipline at home, have serious learning disabilities of widely varying types and degrees of severity, and for whom the teacher is required to design customized lesson planning for each of them in addition to the whole-class lesson planning!

And then there are the people with engineering, math and science degrees supposedly worth so much more.....ah, yes....the math brains who love numbers but cannot communicate with other human beings, much less teach them at their level.

Of course not all are like this, but I know several bright, talented and creative engineers who got out of it because of the robotic personalities they were immersed in, in cubicles. And other engineers I know are content and stay in it because they do not like people....they like numbers.

Suffice it to say that comparing teachers to engineers is comparing apples to oranges. Every profession, trade, and vocation demands the right combination of brains and interpersonal skills and qualities.

[Fourpar]

Compared to the school systems in NY and NJ, which we experienced with two kids in elementary and Jr. high in the '80s to '90s, I would say the MI schools lag behind a bit. But I am not condemning them. Our kids went on to good schools and became successful. There were definitely a couple teachers who needed to retire or be retired (burned out for good), but I don't blame the school system for that.

And yes, there are some great universities in MI. U of M and Wayne State in Detroit come to mind. Kalamazoo College is very top notch, as are some of the other private schools.

...Add CMU to that list? :-)

[gomoho]

So the parents blame the teachers and the teachers blame the parents and in the meantime we are raising a bunch of kids that don't know how to make change. I blame changing the curriculum - go back to reading, writing and arithmetic and give kids the basics to go out into this world with.

[PammyJ]

So the parents blame the teachers and the teachers blame the parents and in the meantime we are raising a bunch of kids that don't know how to make change. I blame changing the curriculum - go back to reading, writing and arithmetic and give kids the basics to go out into this world with.

I am not sure about the blame game! I don't buy into it at all! It is a fact, that students who come from certain types of families who value education do better to be brief! All students can learn, that is my challenge as an educator!
Last time I went to work, today, I thought we were still teaching basics........

I agree about the change counting though! This is a consequence of retailers relying on technology so much. It is hard for them to think for themselves when the technology doesnt work. Counting back change and handing it back to the customer, coins first then bills has gone by the wayside! I really hate getting a mountain in my hand I cannot manipulate! Then they stick the receipt on top of the coins! Try to get that in your purse without dropping something!!!! Maybe one day I will get enough nerve to suggest to these people at the checkouts how easy it is for the Vito Ed if you do coins in palm then bills!

[PammyJ]

Auto correct made customer Vito Ed...lol! Do not see how... Oh well, customer!

[gomoho]

Pammy - when I say basics I am saying addition in first grade, subtraction in second, times tables memorized (backwards and forwards) in third and division in fourth. A good sound basic understanding of math skills before you move on to algebra etc. I'm hearing this is not happening in schools today. Am I wrong?

[manaboutown]

The problem as I see it is finding decent starting employees. If an employee is good and works hard the salary will come.

[mrfixit]

The problem as I see it is finding decent starting employees. If an employee is good and works hard the salary will come.

:agree:

Can we get an AMEN.

Even some of the Head Honchos at McDonalds Corporate started at Minimum wage.

My first job...
..................( picking fly crap off of black pepper)......
.................................................. .......... paid minimum.

OK.........(You caught me)....that was not my First job.

[twinklesweep]

How unfortunate once again to see one group of working people being pitted against another such group, where neither benefits but you can be sure someone else does.... And then there are the ignorant folk who buy into this, further fostering an “us versus them” mentality. In truth, what we need is a greater focus on simply “us” and quit the blame game! “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.” There isn’t a time when Benjamin Franklin’s comment has not been relevant!

There are incompetents in every field, and it’s easy to say in the corporate world that it’s a matter of simply firing them, which is not possible in a public service-type job where one earns tenure or permanent status. Sadly, it’s often incompetents in this situation who are most often cited. I ask, where is the responsibility on the part of management insofar as weeding out these individuals prior to their being granted such protection under the law? If I were a betting person, I would wager that they didn’t become incompetent overnight….

And then there’s the “Peter Principle,” of incompetents kicked upstairs. Reading through this thread, I’m reminded of the power of the ballot box and the ability—not always but often enough—to keep such persons out of certain jobs, even unpaid leadership/policy-making jobs such as on governing boards like those of school districts.

And why such hostility toward teachers in particular—and an appalling level of ignorance about the field by those whose focus is on nurturing the chip on their shoulder and strengthening their adversarial points of view? Jealousy or envy based on ignorance of what is actually involved in this field? These are the folks to whom we trust the education of our children, for goodness sake! Rest assured it was not decisions by teachers that eliminated spelling and times table memorization as well as subjects like geography (“Yes, Virginia, there really is a world out there!”) and civics (“The rights and responsibilities of being a citizen? Nah, they don’t need that! Besides, they’re easier to control without it!”)

OK, I’m off my soap box; let the flaming begin….

[graciegirl]

Here is the first place I have lived and found bias against business. There is selfish small business, sheltered medium business and greedy big business who are all granted unethical tax shelters apparently in the minds of several posters. They are the enemy. Meanwhile all of those businesses provide jobs and sustain the economy. It appears that people who feel this way never entertain that the people who have climbed to the top, are climbing and are trying to gain a foothold at the bottom could be reasonable, fair, hard working and just as ethical as they are. Maybe they don't know anyone personally or no one has had business success in their families? There is class envy that I have never seen before. This country is festering hate, class envy and racial tension that appears to be escalating.

To me, being rich is having a little more, or a lot more than you need to survive. It is not wrong or sinful to be rich unless you stole it, or didn't work hard to earn it. Most of us were taught to save and to take care of ourselves and our families and that taking handouts that were not needed was shameful if you were able bodied and could work. It was called pride.

How did this all change?

I know that there exists everywhere horrible and unethical people like Bernie Madoff but I have heard Gary Morse compared to him on this forum.

I don't know Gary Morse and I doubt very much if anyone who posts on this forum knows one tiny thing about him personally; his character, his goals and his values. He was sued but I still am wondering why, and the folks who sued him seem to have gained a big hunk of money personally from that suit. A few of the SAME folks on this forum over and over love to bash the developer and the Morse family, and I suspect because the Morses are enormously financially successful. I just don't get it. Why is it wrong to be successful and rich?

Twenty years ago they had a good idea and not a whole lot else. A lot of useless land in central Florida in a county with some of the lowest employment in Florida.

I could be so wrong and the whole Morse crew could be Atilla the Hun and heirs and assigns. (Is THAT politically incorrect? Are there still Huns?)

[graciegirl]

Now...about Teachers. It was funner and more productive to teach before the unions started helping us. It was easier to get the job done without someone on the school board pitching "Catcher in the Rye" into the trash can and worrying a lot about Harry Potter books. It was delightful to be able to hug your students without worrying someone would think you were a molester and that if you had to reprimand a student for bad behavior you would get parental support rather than a law suit.

It was joyful and wonderful and so great to teach kids who had their breakfast, an ironed shirt and parents who would see them at dinner. When drugs were aspirin sold at Grays and when teachers tried to get the best out of each and every kid, know that each was different and learned differently. Sometimes it took awhile but we may not have made them all valedictorians but we saw that eventually everyone got a job.

That was a time that teachers stayed after to coach the cheerleaders or baseball team and showed up at the PTA meetings.

I don't know that I would choose teaching again as a job if I had to do it all over.

Yes. I did say funner. It was.

[PammyJ]

Pammy - when I say basics I am saying addition in first grade, subtraction in second, times tables memorized (backwards and forwards) in third and division in fourth. A good sound basic understanding of math skills before you move on to algebra etc. I'm hearing this is not happening in schools today. Am I wrong?

Actually what you stated above has put us into the situation we are in now. Memorizing facts only without an understanding of what these algorithms represent is WHY students cannot transfer that knowledge into real life situations.
One of the reasons we are in this new movement of more rigorous Standards is because Ivy League college professors are saying that students from the American Education system are really good at reciting facts! However, they cannot think for themselves. Students from other countries exceed American students in Critical Thinking Skills!
It is very hard for some teachers who were taught the memorizing method along with algorithms for every math situation to teach for understanding. This is why I have said before, we are re-training and learning this ourselves! Then there are the really SMart people who can look at a complex Algebra problem and explain in detail how the formulas work and how they are applied to real life..... Our Engineers, etc.... My husband!!
Seriously.. This is why people can't count back change when needed. Give us time, this next generation will be able to do that and more!

[graciegirl]

Actually what you stated above has put us into the situation we are in now. Memorizing facts only without an understanding of what these algorithms represent is WHY students cannot transfer that knowledge into real life situations.
One of the reasons we are in this new movement of more rigorous Standards is because Ivy League college professors are saying that students from the American Education system are really good at reciting facts! However, they cannot think for themselves. Students from other countries exceed American students in Critical Thinking Skills!
It is very hard for some teachers who were taught the memorizing method along with algorithms for every math situation to teach for understanding. This is why I have said before, we are re-training and learning this ourselves! Then there are the really SMart people who can look at a complex Algebra problem and explain in detail how the formulas work and how they are applied to real life..... Our Engineers, etc.... My husband!!
Seriously.. This is why people can't count back change when needed. Give us time, this next generation will be able to do that and more!

I guess we are not allowed to think anymore that people are not all born with the same level of intelligence or the same kind of problem solving. Thinking for oneself is good if you also consider the level of intelligence a person is born with. It is o.k. to think that some kids are gifted and some are special nowadays but don't bring up that are a lot of levels in between and not associated with cultural deprivation. That does not make students stupid or smarter, it is just the way they are born. Ability to learn is a spectrum and teachers who know this teach more effectively...but in this day and age you aren't able to talk about it.

I don't know why this is wrong to think, it is true. Some will never grasp higher math, some will never get to understand and enjoy language arts. Not all brains are created equal and sometimes memorization is a good tool. All of us are great people but some of us are not as academically gifted as others. OR athletically gifted and grunt hard work and studying and dedicated creative teaching can't change that entirely.

Be is am are was were been being seem appear become look taste sound feel smell.

[PammyJ]

[QUOTE=graciegirl;723650]I guess we are not allowed to think anymore that people are not all born with the same level of intelligence or the same kind of problem solving. Thinking for oneself is good if you also consider the level of intelligence a person is born with. It is o.k. to think that some kids are gifted and some are special nowadays but don't bring up that are a lot of levels in between and not associated with cultural deprivation. That does not make students stupid or smarter, it is just the way they are born. Ability to learn is a spectrum and teachers who know this teach more effectively...but in this day and age you aren't able to talk about it.



I don't know why this is wrong to think, it is true. Some will never grasp higher math, some will never get to understand and enjoy language arts. Not all brains are created equal and sometimes memorization is a good tool. All of us are great people but some of us are not as academically gifted as others.
Amen! Gracie! I agree with you! Not all will achieve higher levels. And we have to teach to the level the student is at! GONE ARE THE DAYS where you teach one way. We are talking about it and it is a part of our daily life in the schools. Teachers are held accountable for making sure the lowest student is making gains as well as that gifted student.. I didn't say we weren't teaching memorization. You and I both know, some students cannot memorize things due to the way their brain works. We have to teach how to figure things out from what we do know.
What we do in education is highly judged in the public. I at least try through my posts to explain that we are not a bunch of idiots educating the children.
I could go on and on how we accommodate for students individual needs. Extra effort pays off as long as you have the expectation that all children can learn.......and can reach their individual potential!!!

[PammyJ]

Without being too wordy:

We still teach basic facts, spelling, and grammar!!!!

I still believe that students need to be able to write and read cursive writing as well!

[gomoho]

Gracie - I think you hit on an interesting point about the unions. They have tremendous power so why didn't they fight to keep reading, writing and arithmetic in the classrooms to give these kids a good basis to build upon. And whose crazy idea was it to not teach cursive anymore???

[DougB]

Gracie - I think you hit on an interesting point about the unions. They have tremendous power so why didn't they fight to keep reading, writing and arithmetic in the classrooms to give these kids a good basis to build upon. And whose crazy idea was it to not teach cursive anymore???

I don't get what part you guys are not understanding. Why would you think reading, writing, and arithmetic are not being taught in our Florida schools. Did you know by Florida law, grades K - 5 must provide 90 minutes of uninterrupted reading instruction every day? If an elementary school has a 6th grade, then 6th grade also is required the same. When was the last time you looked at the Next Generation Sunshine State Standards and the newly implemented Common Core State Standards? And uh, cursive writing is being taught in our schools. It is introduced in the second semester of second grade.
Finally, this is Florida. Teacher unions in Florida do not tremendous power. I can't think of any union in Florida that has any power.

[PammyJ]

Gracie - I think you hit on an interesting point about the unions. They have tremendous power so why didn't they fight to keep reading, writing and arithmetic in the classrooms to give these kids a good basis to build upon. And whose crazy idea was it to not teach cursive anymore???

Just curious what your source is that proves we don't teach these things...?

It is not a reliable one. I do not know what we are doing each and everyday then.....hmmm!
My message is we are going beyond the basics, and teaching for understanding, not just memorization. All students can learn in their own way. Have you ever heard of Multiple Intelligences? Not all can learn from memorizing facts!
It is statements such as these that makes people believe that we don't teach reading, writing and arithmetic!

Not only do we have to teach handwriting, but now keyboarding skills for our students to make it in this world.

If we aren't teaching, are they learning to read by Osmosis?

[gomoho]

Can only speak from my own experience with my children in elementary school in the late 80's early 90's. They did not spend 1st grade on arithmetic, 2nd on subtraction, 3rd memorizing their multiplication tables and 4th on division. That is a sound basis and pretty much everyone got it during that year. They were busy introducing new math and algebra. Daughter was taught phonics and is an avid reader. Son was taught site reading and struggles to this day.

I have a great nephew and great niece currently in Florida schools and they are definitely not being taught cursive. We are teaching them when we see them. 4th grade this year.

We new how to make change and read and write and learned keyboarding when the time was appropriate and we learned the basics and "hold on to your hats" were probably better educated.

[DougB]

You are basing what you know is taught in schools based on your children's schools experience 25 years ago?? News Flash! If you could see what are kids are doing in school now, you would not think we were better educated.

[PammyJ]

I too had children in the system the same time you did. There was a movement at that time called Whole Language. It was misinterpreted to mean that we didn't teach phonics and we taught in context only. The reason ,I guess, was that teachers did not having enough professional development on what this meant in the classroom.
I assure you phonics is being taught! I have never heard of site reading.The site reading you are referring to I think is where you memorize sight words that are the most common words read and sometimes do not follow any phonics rules. Such as:
the and does.
Children are taught both ways because not every child learns one way.
The math is really going in the right direction. You are right in the past we have tried to teach too many concepts and not teach to mastery at one grade level. Those who write the Standards are seeing this as well. All I am saying, we have to go beyond and the students need to understand what they are learning. Mental Math is where they use their thinking skills to solve math in their head without paper pencil or calculators! It really is amazing to see second graders do this!
Our children's adult world is different than the adult world we grew up in, we are also preparing them to lead in the 21st Century.

I am not sure we were better educated. I learned quite a bit in college that 6th graders are learning now...jus sayin!

[CFrance]

Can only speak from my own experience with my children in elementary school in the late 80's early 90's. They did not spend 1st grade on arithmetic, 2nd on subtraction, 3rd memorizing their multiplication tables and 4th on division. That is a sound basis and pretty much everyone got it during that year. They were busy introducing new math and algebra. Daughter was taught phonics and is an avid reader. Son was taught site reading and struggles to this day.

I have a great nephew and great niece currently in Florida schools and they are definitely not being taught cursive. We are teaching them when we see them. 4th grade this year.

We new how to make change and read and write and learned keyboarding when the time was appropriate and we learned the basics and "hold on to your hats" were probably better educated.

I don't know what my kids did when, but I do remember that neither one of them stood up with their class and recited the multiplication tables over and over, and neither one has the grasp of them today that I have. I don't care why 5 x 8 = 40; I want to have the fact that it does right at my fingertips, and that for me came from rote learning. I'm not against teaching kids to reason or new math, but some of the schools in the '80s and '90s failed our kids by abandoning the old.

But I don't have a disdain for teachers, police, firefighters, etc. They all deserve a decent salary and benefits.

[DougB]

This is true what you saying AutoBike. Education has changed a lot in recent years. I see it as on the right path with many improvements still to come. Good things are being accomplished in our schools. Let's not have people basing their opinion of our schools on past experiences. If anyone wants to see the good things being done, I suggest they volunteer in our schools. Learn what is going on. Mentor and tutor our children. Then if they want To criticize our system, have at it.

[gomoho]

I am happy to hear those that I believe to be teachers that are posting think things are now headed in the right direction. I witnessed the miserable failures someone mentioned in the 80's and 90's and keep hearing over and over how "they have to teach to the test" so I assumed students were being taught what they needed to know to pass "the test". I guess only time will tell how things are going.

[twinklesweep]

Just curious what your source is that proves we don't teach these things...?

It is not a reliable one. I do not know what we are doing each and everyday then.....hmmm!
My message is we are going beyond the basics, and teaching for understanding, not just memorization. All students can learn in their own way. Have you ever heard of Multiple Intelligences? Not all can learn from memorizing facts!
It is statements such as these that makes people believe that we don't teach reading, writing and arithmetic!

Not only do we have to teach handwriting, but now keyboarding skills for our students to make it in this world.

If we aren't teaching, are they learning to read by Osmosis?

Thank you, PammyJ, for your insights and for your willingness to share what is going on in your classroom TODAY, in spite of the fact that some posters seem to imply that you are being less than honest when you say that reading, writing, and arithmetic ARE being taught. It's almost like a "Don't confuse me with the facts when my mind is already made up!"

How I wish I could have studied arithmetic and mathematics in general the way you describe it. As you say, everyone learns differently, and to this point I add that any one individual learns different subject matters differently. I had no problem with reading and language arts; to this day I cannot get away from cringing when I see the misspellings, the usage errors, the poor grammar of my (age) contemporaries. However, my arithmetic learning consisted of memorization of, say (as pointed out earlier), 8 x 5 = 40 and 7/8 = 87.5%. However, I was totally confused when I got to higher levels of math, because I had never been taught math in an enlightened setting involving UNDERSTANDING and not just memorization. In college I had to revise completely my educational and professional goals because of my inability to grasp higher mathematics with the memorization tools I learned by—the ONLY tools used in my elementary classrooms for teaching these skills.

Can only speak from my own experience with my children in elementary school in the late 80's early 90's. They did not spend 1st grade on arithmetic, 2nd on subtraction, 3rd memorizing their multiplication tables and 4th on division. That is a sound basis and pretty much everyone got it during that year. They were busy introducing new math and algebra. Daughter was taught phonics and is an avid reader. Son was taught site reading and struggles to this day.

I have a great nephew and great niece currently in Florida schools and they are definitely not being taught cursive. We are teaching them when we see them. 4th grade this year.

We new how to make change and read and write and learned keyboarding when the time was appropriate and we learned the basics and "hold on to your hats" were probably better educated.


Gracie - I think you hit on an interesting point about the unions. They have tremendous power so why didn't they fight to keep reading, writing and arithmetic in the classrooms to give these kids a good basis to build upon. And whose crazy idea was it to not teach cursive anymore???

I've been told by teachers from many states that their unions, if existing at all nowadays, have little power. Remember, unions came about to fight against the "If you don't come in Sunday, don't come in Monday" attitude that demanded workers work seven days a week as needed; and to facilitate improvements in wages and benefits. They did NOT exist to create educational policies, as another poster pointed out in reference to a New York and subsequently national union president.

Rest assured that if reading, writing, and arithmetic were truly NOT being taught, or cursive writing, for that matter, it was NOT the decision of the teachers themselves or any union, but rather a superintendent of schools implementing the guidelines established by a school board, consisting of lay people, often with zero background in education, who sometimes run for the position for their own reasons that have nothing to do with education.

I am not saying that this is true for all school board members, but I have seen it to be true for enough, to the point that people who genuinely want to serve their communities on the school board often give up after a term or two, simply unable or unwilling to put up with the (gasp!) politics of those other members....

[travelguy]

Teachers have the summer off - to my knowledge deputies don't. Do the math.....

have a friend who teaches in lake county. they have 7 weeks off, total. not eligible for unemployment, and receive no compensation at all for the time off. :spoken: