Minimum Wage

[Golfingnut]

I would support $15.00 per hour plus there should be a provision that no amount of hours worked should effect that amount. Hiring for less than 40 hours per week to get around minimum wage needs to be seen for the terible thing it is. These tactics are turning this great nation into a third world for millions of us. If you cannot run a business and pay a living wage, then you should shut the doors and try something else.

[missypie]

I would support $15.00 per hour plus there should be a provision that no amount of hours worked should effect that amount. Hiring for less than 40 hours per week to get around minimum wage needs to be seen for the terible thing it is. These tactics are turning this great nation into a third world for millions of us. If you cannot run a business and pay a living wage, then you should shut the doors and try something else.

We own a small ice cream store in another state. Over the years that we have owned our business we have hired and trained over 125 teenagers. We've given them the opportunity to have their first job ever in a clean and safe environment. We teach them how to answer a phone, work with money, but most importantly how to treat a customer with excellent customer service skills. They learn so many life lessons from us so when they finally leave us after a couple of years then they are highly successful young people ready for the next position in life. This is a personal mission in our lives to try to make a difference.

If we had to pay $15.00 per hour, we could never afford to own our own business. To tell someone to" close your doors and try something else ", does not know a typical mom and pop operation.

I would enjoy meeting you at the next Crisper's meeting where I will be going to for the first time. I would be happy to share what we do with you if you would like to hear.

[graciegirl]

Thank you Missypie.

I am glad you put a face on economics. When we pass laws to try to do better for all we do better for some.

I think about why a lot of small businesses are cutting back on hours. Not because they are mean spirited, but because they are trying to survive. And big businesses too. Big businesses are jobs for many and security.

Sometimes you just can't legislate morality.

If we had held insurance coverage and hospital bills to the same standard for all we might have begun to solve the root problem of this particular issue.

I think most people are very worried about health insurance costs and most are worried for the right reasons. Very worried.

And on minimum wage..I know three of my neighbors who ended up financially secure that held two jobs early in life. It is not that I am unfeeling, I am realistic.

If in trying to help all people, we enable a lot of people to become lazy and unscrupulous, that isn't a good thing. We will turn the economy upside down if we don't proceed cautiously.

I understand the OP wants only good for all. He has a very kind heart. All of us need to learn the basics again, to cook and save money and to do without until we can afford. I speak about those who can work and care for themselves and not those who legitimately cannot. Not all who have more than they need to survive didn't get more than they need to survive overnight. It does take restraint when we are young and learning to save and sacrifice too.

[Golfingnut]

We own a small ice cream store in another state. Over the years that we have owned our business we have hired and trained over 125 teenagers. We've given them the opportunity to have their first job ever in a clean and safe environment. We teach them how to answer a phone, work with money, but most importantly how to treat a customer with excellent customer service skills. They learn so many life lessons from us so when they finally leave us after a couple of years then they are highly successful young people ready for the next position in life. This is a personal mission in our lives to try to make a difference.

If we had to pay $15.00 per hour, we could never afford to own our own business. To tell someone to" close your doors and try something else ", does not know a typical mom and pop operation.

I would enjoy meeting you at the next Crisper's meeting where I will be going to for the first time. I would be happy to share what we do with you if you would like to hear.

I could go along with exempting teenagers trying to establish a work history, but NEVER for an adult. Helping youngsters get a start is commendable, taking advantage of adults is my concern.

[Golfingnut]

Thank you Missypie.

I am glad you put a face on economics. When we pass laws to try to do better for all we do better for some.

I think about why a lot of small businesses are cutting back on hours. Not because they are mean spirited, but because they are trying to survive. And big businesses too. Big businesses are jobs for many and security.

Sometimes you just can't legislate morality.

If we had held insurance coverage and hospital bills to the same standard for all we might have begun to solve the root problem of this particular issue.

I think most people are very worried about health insurance costs and most are worried for the right reasons. Very worried.

And on minimum wage..I know three of my neighbors who ended up financially secure that held two jobs early in life. It is not that I am unfeeling, I am realistic.

If in trying to help all people, we enable a lot of people to become lazy and unscrupulous, that isn't a good thing. We will turn the economy upside down if we don't proceed cautiously.

I understand the OP wants only good for all. He has a very kind heart. All of us need to learn the basics again, to cook and save money and to do without until we can afford. I speak about those who can work and care for themselves and not those who legitimately cannot. Not all who have more than they need to survive didn't get more than they need to survive overnight. It does take restraint when we are young and learning to save and sacrifice too.
I understand this way of thinking, and it certainly is applicable in a few circumstances, but overall, it is a habitual thought we have been trained to believe by big business, but has little to do with actual truth.

[Microcodeboy]

Clearly the OP has never run a business and could not. $15 an hour would cause an inflation issue and price much of American life out of reach for the same people he thinks he is helping. There are many ways to help low wage people but EDUCATION/TRAINING is the best way. Raise the skill level and the wage will follow. Common sense.

[Russ_Boston]

Hiring for less than 40 hours per week to get around minimum wage needs to be seen for the terible thing it is.

The law states nothing about being able to pay less than minimum wage based on hours. Also the Federal rate is paid if it is higher than the current state rate:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#Florida

United States Federal Minimum Wage - 2013 (http://www.minimum-wage.org/federal-minimum-wage)

[tommy steam]

We own a small ice cream store in another state. Over the years that we have owned our business we have hired and trained over 125 teenagers. We've given them the opportunity to have their first job ever in a clean and safe environment. We teach them how to answer a phone, work with money, but most importantly how to treat a customer with excellent customer service skills. They learn so many life lessons from us so when they finally leave us after a couple of years then they are highly successful young people ready for the next position in life. This is a personal mission in our lives to try to make a difference.

If we had to pay $15.00 per hour, we could never afford to own our own business. To tell someone to" close your doors and try something else ", does not know a typical mom and pop operation.

I would enjoy meeting you at the next Crisper's meeting where I will be going to for the first time. I would be happy to share what we do with you if you would like to hear.

You are a person who has walked the walk and talked the talk.

[Golfingnut]

Clearly the OP has never run a business and could not. $15 an hour would cause an inflation issue and price much of American life out of reach for the same people he thinks he is helping. There are many ways to help low wage people but EDUCATION/TRAINING is the best way. Raise the skill level and the wage will follow. Common sense.

That is just talking points. If you could pay someone more without hurting your business JUST BECAUSE they had more education don't make sense. Before you respond, keep in mind that we already have collage grads working for minimum wage because of the job market.

[Irishmen]

You can raise labor rates all you want because it will all be relative. The cost of all will rise accordingly. A dishwasher income will always only be able to afford what a dishwasher makes. See Detroit.

[billethkid]

If one has not ever run a business they have no practical insight into what it takes to make it a profitable entity.

Treating the subject of of making a maximum wage out of a minimum wage is an intellectual exercise disconnected from the reality of actual practice.

Small businesses that constitute the largest employers in the aggrigate would have a large number of them "closing their doors" if the minimum wage becomes $15.00 per hour. Some small business owners aspire to reach $15 per hour for their time.

How about a standard per hour rate of $5 per hour with the federal government subsidizing ANY amount over $5......only after putting it on a ballot and having it approved by the voters who will be voting to pay more taxes to make it work.
Pretty much like many of the programs in place already!!!

btk

[gomoho]

That is just talking points. If you could pay someone more without hurting your business JUST BECAUSE they had more education don't make sense. Before you respond, keep in mind that we already have collage grads working for minimum wage because of the job market.

I believe the point was "if you are educated you will have the opportunity to make more than minimum wage". The current job market is slowly improving, but I don't see how forcing a small business to pay $15./hour will do anything but destroy this unstable job market.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The law states nothing about being able to pay less than minimum wage based on hours. Also the Federal rate is paid if it is higher than the current state rate:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#Florida

United States Federal Minimum Wage - 2013 (http://www.minimum-wage.org/federal-minimum-wage)

Yea, I was wondering about that as well. Where is it that you can pay less than minimum wage if you hire for less than 40 hours?

As far as raising the minimum wage to $15.00, why not raise it to $50.00?

The problem with both of those scenarios of course is that the cost of every thing would rise tremendously. Another thing that many people that advocate this kind of thing don't realize is that raising the minimum wage would raise all wages. If MacDonalds begins paying their counter people $15.00, how much would they pay their shift managers that are now making $12.00 who oversee those $15.00 an hour employees? Certainly their salaries would have to be over $15.00 per hour. Based on the current ratio, they would need to be paid about $20.00. The the store manager who is making $18.00 per hour would need to be paid $26.00 per hour.

In another scenario, an employee that has been with a company for over a year and has been give a COLA and a merit increase from $7.79 per hour and is now making $9.00 per hour should not be making the same $15.00 per hour as the new employee hired yesterday.

Raising the minimum wage would have a huge detrimental effect on the cost of living so that the person now getting paid $7.79 per hour would have less buying power than that same person making $15.00.

Raising the minimum wage would hurt everyone and probably hurt the poorest among us the most. But, it would garner a lot of votes for politicians who vote for it.

On the other hand, eliminating the minimum wage and allowing people to take jobs for whatever they and an employer decide is fair would put more people, especially young people working part time summer jobs etc to work.

[gomoho]

You can raise labor rates all you want because it will all be relative. The cost of all will rise accordingly. A dishwasher income will always only be able to afford what a dishwasher makes. See Detroit.

An excellent point - if the minimum wage was raised to $15/hour all other wages would be raised to follow suit and then prices would be raised to cover these increases and we are back where we started from. A dishwasher making $15/hour being able to afford the same stuff he could making the current minimum wage!

[Golfingnut]

I believe the point was "if you are educated you will have the opportunity to make more than minimum wage". The current job market is slowly improving, but I don't see how forcing a small business to pay $15./hour will do anything but destroy this unstable job market.

Who knows, but I think it has more to do with owner greed than hurting the economy. The poor folks will spend the extra pay and that would help the economy

[billethkid]

Who knows, but I think it has more to do with owner greed than hurting the economy. The poor folks will spend the extra pay and that would help the economy

"Owner greed"........ tells me you do not know many small business owners or what it takes to generate an acceptable living from a small business.

Are you not missing the point that many small businesses that will wind up closing their doors will ONLY put more people out of work.

It is fine to beat the drum for what one believes but all aspects of impact just need to be understood. For some reason that does not seem to be of much consequence or concern in today's environment.

btk

[perrjojo]

I am wondering if the OP has ever owned a business or been responsible for the budget of a business.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Yea, that greedy missypie taking advantage of all those teenagers while she sits in her mansion just counting her money.

I too ran my own business for about 20 years. I had between three and five part time employees to cover the 84 hours a week that we were open. My payroll ran about $1,000 a week. Some of my employees had been with me for several years so they were making well over minimum wage.
I made, after the first few years, between $40,000 and $50,000 per year. To earn that, I often put in 90-100 hours a week.
If I had to double my payroll as the OP is suggesting, I would have had four choices. 1) Raise my prices which may have reduced sales, 2) reduce my personal income 3) let some of my employees go and work more hours myself, 4) let all the employees go, close the doors and collect unemployment while I looked for a job.
Yes, I too was one of those greedy owners.

[Golfingnut]

"Owner greed"........ tells me you do not know many small business owners or what it takes to generate an acceptable living from a small business.

Are you not missing the point that many small businesses that will wind up closing their doors will ONLY put more people out of work.

It is fine to beat the drum for what one believes but all aspects of impact just need to be understood. For some reason that does not seem to be of much consequence or concern in today's environment.

btk

I hear you clearly, but I am sure you are wrong. Small business go under due to incompetent owners, not because they pay too much to their employees.

[graciegirl]

I hear you clearly, but I am sure you are wrong. Small business go under due to incompetent owners, not because they pay too much to their employees.

They go under for both reasons, just as large businesses do.

[Golfingnut]

They go under for both reasons, just as large businesses do.

True

[rubicon]

the reason for raising the minimum wage rationale by the fed gov't is based on politics and not market realities. It is no different than unions who make wage demands without accompanying rises in production, quality education etc. it basically is saying I deserve a raise because I say so.

The economy is in deep trouble because of this mentality cheap money is only fueling this faltering economy because productivity is missing competition is being stifled and unemployement has lasted so long that those unemployed have lost their skill sets making them less employable.

do you feel the "love" from all those government freebies

[billethkid]

I hear you clearly, but I am sure you are wrong. Small business go under due to incompetent owners, not because they pay too much to their employees.

This is a statement to emphasize your position. You are entitled to the opinion or "feeling" you may have but if you do not have first hand knowledge or experience you are clearly presenting what you think and not what is the reality of small businesses.


You may be right for some percentage of why businesses go under.....but incorrect as a general statement. They are successful for many reasons. When one's margins are decreased because of legislated increases in wage/payroll expenses without any increase in revenue to offset that increase there is no way for the owners to absorb that type of expense increase.

Most small businesses top expenses are rents, taxes and wages. The income before taxes is a fixed amount.....this fixed amount is reduced when arbutrary legislation dictates wages to be paid. To avoid paying employees "too much" the owners then have no choice but to reduce the number of employees or hours worked. Unlike government entities small businesses do not have the luxury of spending more than they have.

As has been staed in another post, as wages go up so do the cost of all goods which in turn increases prices which in turn comes from the customer, including those who benefit from the increased wages to only pay more for what they used to buy.

This is one of those shouting into a windstorm or corner. The above is not intended to try to change anybody's mind about what they want to promote or believe. Just an obligation to represent the reality of the small business owners plight.

Time to move to a differnt subject for me.

btk

[Ragman]

I was the owner of a small (20 to 30 employees) specialty manufacturing and retail company for over 30 years.

Most of that time both the employees and I were paid a good basic wage with a substantial profit sharing arrangement. If the company made money everybody shared, but no profit no bonus. Amazing how everyone did their best to hold down costs and waste. No guarantees, but opportunities to make more.

Individual health insurance was 100% company paid along with vacation and sick days with the amount based on length of service.

and yes, I made more because the return on invested capital was part of the equation.( everyone does understand the principle of risk capital I hope)

You invest in my business and then you can tell how to run it.

With what small businesses have to put up with today from government on down, I thank God I sold my three generation, 100 year old business a decade or so ago.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I hear you clearly, but I am sure you are wrong. Small business go under due to incompetent owners, not because they pay too much to their employees.

Well in some cases I'm sure that you are correct, but I can tell you that if I had had to double my payroll, I would have gone out of business because of it. Not because I did anything wrong.

[Patty55]

As a former small business owner I loved that I had the freedom of working any 168 hours a week I chose.

As far as the minimum wage group, sad to say that most of them aren't even worth that much. A lot of the workers today are terrible. I paid above the minimum wage to barely adequate workers, the problem with that is they begin to think they are worth it and THEY JUST DON'T GET IT.

At Christmas I gave everyone a weeks pay for a bonus and never even received so much as a card in return-one girl wrote "Thank you" when she endorsed the check.

As a "greedy owner", I made the most money when I started out, as I grew the headaches became overwhelming and after matching their FICA and all the assorted BS I actually kept less money for myself.

I provided free health insurance and had one guy complain because we didn't do eyeglass coverage, so he threatened to dump our coverage and move his family onto his wife's company plan...THEY JUST DON'T GET IT.

I found these people begrudged my success, my toys and my lifestyle, yet they would never have chosen the sacrifices that I did to get there.

Think about the stupid people you have to deal with on a daily basis. Look at Comcast (IMO, their Christmas party must be like a stupidity convention), I'm sure their people make over the minimum and get benefits. Has it raised the level of competence?

[Golfingnut]

As a former small business owner I loved that I had the freedom of working any 168 hours a week I chose.

As far as the minimum wage group, sad to say that most of them aren't even worth that much. A lot of the workers today are terrible. I paid above the minimum wage to barely adequate workers, the problem with that is they begin to think they are worth it and THEY JUST DON'T GET IT.

At Christmas I gave everyone a weeks pay for a bonus and never even received so much as a card in return-one girl wrote "Thank you" when she endorsed the check.

As a "greedy owner", I made the most money when I started out, as I grew the headaches became overwhelming and after matching their FICA and all the assorted BS I actually kept less money for myself.

I provided free health insurance and had one guy complain because we didn't do eyeglass coverage, so he threatened to dump our coverage and move his family onto his wife's company plan...THEY JUST DON'T GET IT.

I found these people begrudged my success, my toys and my lifestyle, yet they would never have chosen the sacrifices that I did to get there.

Think about the stupid people you have to deal with on a daily basis. Look at Comcast (IMO, their Christmas party must be like a stupidity convention), I'm sure their people make over the minimum and get benefits. Has it raised the level of competence?

That post makes sense. I will reconsider my position. Thanks for a direct response with such honesty.

[ilovetv]

I was the owner of a small (20 to 30 employees) specialty manufacturing and retail company for over 30 years.

Most of that time both the employees and I were paid a good basic wage with a substantial profit sharing arrangement. If the company made money everybody shared, but no profit no bonus. Amazing how everyone did their best to hold down costs and waste. No guarantees, but opportunities to make more.

Individual health insurance was 100% company paid along with vacation and sick days with the amount based on length of service.

and yes, I made more because the return on invested capital was part of the equation.( everyone does understand the principle of risk capital I hope)

You invest in my business and then you can tell how to run it.

With what small businesses have to put up with today from government on down, I thank God I sold my three generation, 100 year old business a decade or so ago.

No, they don't understand the principle of risk capital, nor that a business starter/owner earned that money working 80 hours a week, having little or no vacation, little or no time with their spouse and kids growing up, and paying employees came before paying the owner himself, to support his own family.

And this statement by Patty55 (and her whole post) says it ALL:

"I found these people begrudged my success, my toys and my lifestyle, yet they would never have chosen the sacrifices that I did to get there."

[Golfingnut]

No, they don't understand the principle of risk capital, nor that a business starter/owner earned that money working 80 hours a week, having little or no vacation, little or no time with their spouse and kids growing up, and paying employees came before paying the owner himself, to support his own family.

And this statement by Patty55 (and her whole post) says it ALL:

"I found these people begrudged my success, my toys and my lifestyle, yet they would never have chosen the sacrifices that I did to get there."


I agree. She came with reasons that make sense.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

As a "greedy owner", I made the most money when I started out, as I grew the headaches became overwhelming and after matching their FICA and all the assorted BS I actually kept less money for myself.

This is another thing that I forgot to mention. Matching FICA in additional unemployment insurance and workers comp insurance all go up when payroll goes up. So tack an addition 11% (approximate) to the additional payroll and you begin to understand what raising the minimum wage does to businesses and the economy.

And I'd someone that advocates a minimum wage of $15.00 to explain to me that if $15.00 is good, why they are not advocating $25.00 or $50.00 or an amount even higher. Wouldn't that give all of these poor minimum wage employees an even better lifestyle?

[Indydealmaker]

That is just talking points. If you could pay someone more without hurting your business JUST BECAUSE they had more education don't make sense. Before you respond, keep in mind that we already have collage grads working for minimum wage because of the job market.

That is because when they graduated, they had zero job skills. I advocate mandatory jobs within the students' majors so that when they graduate it is with value instead of with a diploma that is nothing more than a checkmark on the job application.

[Ragman]

That is because when they graduated, they had zero job skills. I advocate mandatory jobs within the students' majors so that when they graduate it is with value instead of with a diploma that is nothing more than a checkmark on the job application.

Mandated by who?

[gomoho]

mandated by who?

life!!!

[graciegirl]

Mandated by who?

At this time most colleges do require internships in the career choice. Our granddaughter interned at our local Cincinnati TV station and spent three months on the Today Show. She worked at the local NPR station at the college that was the link to the surrounding counties for their news and she did this five nights a week...She also worked weekends at the performing arts center and stayed on the deans list for four years. Yes I am bragging. She also kept Ohio University as top party school during her attendance. So hopefully she came out a well rounded person.

She found a job quickly last year and quickly got a promotion.

[Microcodeboy]

That is just talking points. If you could pay someone more without hurting your business JUST BECAUSE they had more education don't make sense. Before you respond, keep in mind that we already have collage grads working for minimum wage because of the job market.

No, it is really an understanding of basic economics. Bottom line is which you want - people making a lower wage than you think they should or a bigger unemployment problem than we have now. Underemployment is a real problem but not as big as chronic unemployment worse than the mess we are already in. Every time the government gets their hands in a free market the unintended consequences are overwhelming. Most such efforts fail but are swept under the rug.

We need people to have the opportunity to be successful in a free market environment or the whole thing will crash and burn. Lots of examples and history, most is not good. $15 an hour would be a shock to an already fragile market. As suggested by someone else, I would be happy to provide details and backup on this topic if you like. We need regulation to get out of the way of business and not more in the way. Consider the $15 an hour rule would hurt small business much more than big business (but would hurt all) and that small business is the source of over 80% of new jobs in this country. Inevery economic downturn (which is part of the standard business cycle) low end jobs get replaced with technology and that is where education opportunity comes in to play.

Not a difference of opinion, but of economic fact. I stand by my previous post.

[Microcodeboy]

Who knows, but I think it has more to do with owner greed than hurting the economy. The poor folks will spend the extra pay and that would help the economy

Owner Greed. Really!! Clearly you have not run a business. Try owner working 18 hours a day for NO MONEY so he can keep his/her employees working rather than lay off half or more of them. Been there. Have you???

[Microcodeboy]

i hear you clearly, but i am sure you are wrong. Small business go under due to incompetent owners, not because they pay too much to their employees.

wow!!!!

[rp001]

Clearly there are some with negative opinions of workers in this country. The fact that they aren't even considering that minimum wage places a worker as a head of household in an untenable position. In the business climate today the "fat cats" are bloated and it has become fashionable to blame the workers for their personal plights. I find it disgusting that the wall street types and corporate big shots make so much money at the EXPENSE of their loyal and dedicated workers that can't do better because of the "market" artificially created by corporate greed. AND WALL STREET GROWS TO RECORD NUMBERS while the workers are doing less than they did in the 1960's. How sad and disgusting the greed is in this country now.

[perrjojo]

Clearly there are some with negative opinions of workers in this country. The fact that they aren't even considering that minimum wage places a worker as a head of household in an untenable position. In the business climate today the "fat cats" are bloated and it has become fashionable to blame the workers for their personal plights. I find it disgusting that the wall street types and corporate big shots make so much money at the EXPENSE of their loyal and dedicated workers that can't do better because of the "market" artificially created by corporate greed. AND WALL STREET GROWS TO RECORD NUMBERS while the workers are doing less than they did in the 1960's. How sad and disgusting the greed is in this country now.

I used to complain about the salary of the CEO where my husband worked. He always replied, "good for him, perhaps I will make that much one day". His attitude was hard work pays off. Guess what? He never made as much as the CEO but he always moved forward and ended his career with a good salary. GREED? I feel those complaining about greed are really envious. It takes many hours and much hard work to get to that level. Not everyone wants to do the hard work, make the sacrifices and put in the hours it takes. I say, sour grapes.

[gomoho]

Lift yourself up through hard work or keep taking handouts from the government - your choice.

Minimum wage jobs were never intended to be your life work that you could support a family on. It is a starting point to support yourself while you attain the skills to move up. Somewhere along the line that was forgotten.

[graciegirl]

Clearly there are some with negative opinions of workers in this country. The fact that they aren't even considering that minimum wage places a worker as a head of household in an untenable position. In the business climate today the "fat cats" are bloated and it has become fashionable to blame the workers for their personal plights. I find it disgusting that the wall street types and corporate big shots make so much money at the EXPENSE of their loyal and dedicated workers that can't do better because of the "market" artificially created by corporate greed. AND WALL STREET GROWS TO RECORD NUMBERS while the workers are doing less than they did in the 1960's. How sad and disgusting the greed is in this country now.


This is the first time in my life I have heard big business referred to in such a way. My husband worked for one of the ten largest corporations in the world at one time for 52 years and climbed the ranks. He worked hard for them and they rewarded him with good benefits and a decent salary and some mighty nice perks over time. He started in a lowly positon breaking down big shipping boxes in the union and climbed to a position that he enjoyed and that he did a great job in.

I never thought of them as greedy. I am astonished to move here and run into this attitude and generally it is from people who have not worked in a business for profit situation all of their life. They may have worked for the government or in academia.

It is just how business works and it isn't that some fat cats are making a killing. If the company is in a for profit situation and is making a good margin, they can and do hire more people, give them benefits and a chance at a good life like we have had.

There are unethical and underhanded people in all walks of life. I have never run into this bias before.

[njbchbum]

owner greed, corporate greed, whatever! greed is simply a rationale used by those who are capable but are too lazy to work harder, run faster, jump higher and achieve greater heights in career and/or life.

[JP]

If you raise the minimum wage, the cost of everything you make, produce or deliver has to go up to pay for the increased cost of business due to the increased minimum wage and you are starting an inflationary cycle. The government needs to stay out of trying to control businesses. It never works.

[njbchbum]

snipped
Yes, friends...wait till The Affordable HealthCare kicks in in October and the 20 somethings start to pay for healthcare they never had or gave a rip about before. Then where will your minimum wage want to go to?

lotsa 20 somethings are gonna stay on mommy/daddy's insurance until they turn 26! and that's gonna be a big blow to the $$ the AHCA is supposed to generate to offset expenses! so min wage won't hafta increase for those 20 somethings because of the cost of healthcare!

but i don't wanna hijack this thread.

[Indydealmaker]

Mandated by who?

By the schools, of course. Many schools allow or require internships, but some of those only allow the students to participate in internships if their grades are high enough. I believe that if students with lower grades were allowed to intern, they might become better students as they may come to realize why they are in school in the first place.

[Indydealmaker]

Clearly there are some with negative opinions of workers in this country. The fact that they aren't even considering that minimum wage places a worker as a head of household in an untenable position. In the business climate today the "fat cats" are bloated and it has become fashionable to blame the workers for their personal plights. I find it disgusting that the wall street types and corporate big shots make so much money at the EXPENSE of their loyal and dedicated workers that can't do better because of the "market" artificially created by corporate greed. AND WALL STREET GROWS TO RECORD NUMBERS while the workers are doing less than they did in the 1960's. How sad and disgusting the greed is in this country now.

There seems to be a lot of misconceptions as to why there is a disparity between the poor and the rich. Those that point to the greed of Wall Street types have forgotten that they are likely painted by the same brush.

If you have a pension, you are likely in cahoots with those Greedy Wall Street types for it is the shareholders (investors)(pension funds) in companies that push for ever greater and greater short term profits often at the expense of R&D, reinvestment into equipment and increased wages for employees.

[ivanhoe]

lotsa 20 somethings are gonna stay on mommy/daddy's insurance until they turn 26!



Holy Molly! Ain't ya gettn' it. The idea is to bring in non-paying to help the non-doing.
That age 26 will be on the chopping block and soon!!

[njbchbum]

Holy Molly! Ain't ya gettn' it. The idea is to bring in non-paying to help the non-doing.
That age 26 will be on the chopping block and soon!!

yeah i got it - it's in my post!

[Indydealmaker]

So are you saying it's better for these 20 somethings to not have any health insurance and just show up at the emergency room when they need healthcare? What is the alternative plan?

These 20 somethings could have insurance now, and quite cheaply, but most choose to spend their money on other things. You will soon find that most of these will choose to pay the penalty rather than the premium, especially when they see what the deductibles are going to be.

[Monkei]

I only mind corporate greed when they find ways to skip out on taxes or even get refunds from IRS while somehow they convince us that our real problem is food stamps, welfare and social security.

Other than that greed away.

The real successful business find ways to satisfy their employees needs. Other take advantage in hard times.

[Bucco]

yeah i got it - it's in my post!

NJBCHBUM......you are hearing the "talking points".

This new law, which even those who pushed it won't discuss,will bring severe financial stress to this country.

Not a new prediction for sure, but I sure wish the "ins" at the time had at least talked privately with the "outs" to prevent what is coming.

And you are not hi jacking....any discussion on min wage or anything having to do with jobs, etc. must go through this new law.

[Monkei]

These 20 somethings could have insurance now, and quite cheaply, but most choose to spend their money on other things. You will soon find that most of these will choose to pay the penalty rather than the premium, especially when they see what the deductibles are going to be.

Quite cheaply? Are we still talking about those on minimum wage!

[perrjojo]

This is the first time in my life I have heard big business referred to in such a way. My husband worked for one of the ten largest corporations in the world at one time for 52 years and climbed the ranks. He worked hard for them and they rewarded him with good benefits and a decent salary and some mighty nice perks over time. He started in a lowly positon breaking down big shipping boxes in the union and climbed to a position that he enjoyed and that he did a great job in.

I never thought of them as greedy. I am astonished to move here and run into this attitude and generally it is from people who have not worked in a business for profit situation all of their life. They may have worked for the government or in academia.

It is just how business works and it isn't that some fat cats are making a killing. If the company is in a for profit situation and is making a good margin, they can and do hire more people, give them benefits and a chance at a good life like we have had.

There are unethical and underhanded people in all walks of life. I have never run into this bias before.

Gracie, I agree 150%. My husband started as an hourly employee and after 40 years and many, many hours of hard work ended his career as a director of a Fortune 500 company. This didn't happen by chance or luck or greed. He worked his A** off and was rewarded as such. Minimum wage is a "starting" salary. It is up to you what happens after that. The President of McDonalds started with that dreadful minimum wage. Oh, and btw when my husband needed experience on his résumé at the beginning of his career, he offered to work for free but the company paid him minimum wage and hired him only because he wanted it bad enough to work for the experience only.

[Patty55]

So are you saying it's better for these 20 somethings to not have any health insurance and just show up at the emergency room when they need healthcare? What is the alternative plan?

I think the alternate plan is they get job that provides health insurance or bust their butt and make enough to pay for it.

There are companies that offer health insurance. My niece worked at Starbucks while in school, now that she has a "real job" she still works PT at Starbucks for the benefits. She gets health care for $30/month, stock options and a free pound of coffee a week. I think Publix gives benefits. Yet, people complain about the prices at these two places, DUH, you can't have it both ways.

[Indydealmaker]

Quite cheaply? Are we still talking about those on minimum wage!

The 20 somethings that are supposed to be buying insurance, now or later, are definitely not the ones earning minimum wage. That is just not going to ever happen unless the employer can find a way to afford it. But the point is that most 20 somethings, regardless of their incomes, have no interest in health insurance. They are invincible and their disposable income goes for fun.

[perrjojo]

The 20 somethings that are supposed to be buying insurance, now or later, are definitely not the ones earning minimum wage. That is just not going to ever happen unless the employer can find a way to afford it. But the point is that most 20 somethings, regardless of their incomes, have no interest in health insurance. They are invincible and their disposable income goes for fun.

Yup!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I think that most healthy 20 somethings might be better off buy inexpensive catastrophic insurance and paying for their rare doctor's visits and prescriptions out of pocket. I'd guess that most of them would save money.

[buggyone]

I think that most healthy 20 somethings might be better off buy inexpensive catastrophic insurance and paying for their rare doctor's visits and prescriptions out of pocket. I'd guess that most of them would save money.

You also know that a call placed to Mom and Dad will take care of those doctor visit and prescription costs, too.

You probably are right about buying the catastrophic insurance.

[Suzi]

Who knows, but I think it has more to do with owner greed than hurting the economy. The poor folks will spend the extra pay and that would help the economy

Unless you have owned a business, you really have no idea. There are many business owners that don't make $15/hour themselves. Does that surprise you? Well, if you consider the hours that it takes that nobody sees (like the book keeping, cleaning, laundry, ordering, counting stock etc, etc) it is a huge amount of time. How about evenings and weekends - most small businesses are run by the true grit of the owner. When all else fails - its the owners job. Someone doesn't show up for work, now the owner does their work and the employees work....its got to get done somehow. After all, the other employees are depending on their job to survive. So the small business owner sucks it up and does what needs to be done. This once great nation was built on this premise.......greedy my foot!

[dotti105]

Last summer we were fortunate to spend several weeks in Australia. What a beautiful, clean and safe country. We loved every minute.

We spoke to many locals who did not understand how our nation is in the shape it is financially. I must admit, it gave us pause.

They have national health care and have had for years. People our age are very happy with the system and did not understand why it is controversial here.

They have a living wage for all workers. The minimum wage is about $16-18/hr. There is no tipping. None expected.

They have a federal budget SURPLUS and when we were there, they were concerned that the surplus was a few billion less than expected. Banks pay 5%.....not 0.5% interest on CDs.

It was an amazing country to visit and we enjoyed the natural beauty of the great barrier reef, the fantastic contrast of historical and modern architecture of Sydney.

I must admit, it made us wonder how 2 countries so similar in so many ways could have such a financial contrast.

I don't have any answers. Just lots of questions........

[Golfingnut]

I stopped writing last night and this morning, I have read all the responses, did some verification research. Now mainly because no one insulted my opinions, but rather, (TKS PATTI55) gave me other things to consider, I would like to amend my previous opinion to the following:

Minimum wage is not a living wage for a family, but maybe it was never intended to be so. If you find your self in a minimum wage job at that stage of your life, it may be time to rethink your path and change it. Self education, Work ethics and Honesty most likely will allow you to move up where you are or get a shinning recommendation from your minimum wage BOSS and help to find that better paying job. I am bullheaded and rarely change my opinion, but this thread has done just that when it comes to making minimum wage $15,00 per hour. I thank all for their calm considerate posts that made that happen.

[twinklesweep]

Sometimes you just can't legislate morality.

It is not that I am unfeeling, I am realistic.



Some "generally speaking" questions:

This is post #65 in a long thread about the minimum wage, and no one has given a moment of thought as to WHY there is a mandated minimum wage to begin with. Could it have something to do with an attempt to "legislate morality"?

Why is it that some of those who recognize themselves as "realistic" seem also to realize that they come across at the same time as "unfeeling," that somehow "realistic" sounds like a good thing whereas "unfeeling" does not?

I too owned an extraordinarily successful small business and was fortunate that when it disappeared virtually overnight to India (and let's leave "greed" out of the equation), I was of retirement age and so it was all right. Maybe that is a selfish thought on my part, but what of those younger hard-working American business owners and their hard-working American employees: Where does it leave them?

[gomoho]

Golfingnut - I applaud your open mind and even more that you shared your change of heart with us.

[buggyone]

You know it does not really matter what the minimum wage is. I am sure most of us remember when the minimum wage was $1.25 per hour and that is what we had our part time jobs on. Now, it is around $7.50 per hour.

A GS-18 in the Federal Government at that time made $36,000 per year and that is the highest civilian pay grade. Today, that employee (called SES) makes about $175,000. As the lower pay scales increase, so do all the levels above them.

If a hamburger flipper at McDonalds earned $15 per year or $31,300 per year, all the other salaries would double as well. We would see "paper inflation" where the salaries would look huge but then the cost of goods and services would also increase at the same rate.

Your $2.79 loaf of Italian 5 grain bread would cost around $5, gasoline would double to over $7 per gallon, houses would double to around $600,000 and cars might easily cost $45,000 for a basic model.

Conversly, if you took that back to the time when the minimum wage was $1.25 and other salaries were in line with that; prices seemed lower if we look back at them with today's prices - but all were in line with earnings. We all remember gasoline at .35 per gallon, McDonalds meal for 45 cents, houses at $25,000, and a new car at $2,500.

[Microcodeboy]

Golfingnut - Thanks for your honesty. Don't forget that your intended purpose is honorable and right. Kudo's to you!

[TexaninVA]

I would support $15.00 per hour plus there should be a provision that no amount of hours worked should effect that amount. Hiring for less than 40 hours per week to get around minimum wage needs to be seen for the terible thing it is. These tactics are turning this great nation into a third world for millions of us. If you cannot run a business and pay a living wage, then you should shut the doors and try something else.

I'm always puzzled by the point of view you express. If you support $15/hour .... why not $20? $30? etc? Economics does not work like that. It just doesn't.

How many customers would just stop going to fast food places if the prices doubled? Answer ... a lot. How many employees would then lose their job at the higher wage? Answer ... again, a lot. What's the net result of a good intentioned policy? Look at Detroit for an analogy.

Have you personally ever actually run a business? Do you have any experience at all in this regard? Would you double the wages of your employees overnight and then expect to rack up higher sales??

There is such a chasm between the good things people understandably "want" and what reality allows well intentioned people to actually do.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Golfingnut - Thanks for your honesty. Don't forget that your intended purpose is honorable and right. Kudo's to you!

I agree. Most people that advocate these kind of things are genuinely trying to think of ways to improve the lives of the poorest among us. Unfortunately, you know what they say about good intentions. They often pave the road to ruin.

I think that is something that most of us have to realize. We all want the same things, It's just that we differ in opinion on what re the best methods of attaining them

[Monkei]

It would be nice jet to see the MW keep up with its standing in previous years. If raising it 2 dollars per hour makes it equivalent with the MW in 1972 then let's do it and place it on a sliding scale to keep it equal with previous years.

[buggyone]

If minimum wage doubled to $15, other salaries would go up in the same proportion and aso prices would go up in the same way to meet all those increased wages. It would just be hyperinflation and no one would benefit.

Do you think your Social Security retirement benefits would increase at the same rate to keep up with the hyperinflation?

[De Lis]

Has anyone seen all the nauseating photos the employees of these fast food chains that have been put on the Internet, which the media has picked up?

A staggering $15.00 for that? No!

[billethkid]

some where in the eqation there has to be a consideration for what some jobs are worth and especially not worth.

The driver cannot be the needs of the workforce. Used to be the single biggest advantage to meet the needs of the worker were hard work to get the next higher paying job. That seems to not even be a matter of fact or consideration in our "modern" era of expectations.

btk

[ilovetv]

This article has several crucial points to understand about this topic:

"Are national minimum wage protests at fast-food chains a spontaneous reaction to the slow-growing economy and sluggish labor market?

No, these protests are organized by a campaign called Fast Food Forward, led by the worker center New York Communities for Change, funded in part by unions, including the Services Employees International Union. Read about New York Communities for Change.

This was brought home to me when I was on National Public Radio’s show “On Point” with host Tom Ashbrook on Wednesday. Also on the show was Terrance Wise, 34, who has three daughters and has worked at fast-food restaurants for 18 years.

Terrance is not your typical minimum wage worker. Most minimum wage workers move on after a couple of years, because turnover in the fast-food industry is rapid. When I asked NPR how to get in touch with Terrance, I was given the name of his publicist. A minimum-wage worker with a publicist? That’s something.

Turns out Terrance’s publicist is strategic consulting firm BerlinRosen, which has an impressive list of union clients, including the SEIU. According to BerlinRosen’s web site: “We work with our union clients to develop hard-hitting campaigns that bring together eye-catching member-to-member mail, persuasive tv ads, phone programs, web campaigns and earned media to help deliver your message and win the day.”

No matter that raising the minimum wage to a “living wage” of $15 an hour, which is what protesters demand, would hurt young and unskilled workers, those employees whom protestors supposedly represent. Fewer people would be hired, and the young and low-skilled would lose job opportunities...."

Hiking minimum wage threatens U.S. jobs - Diana Furchtgott-Roth - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hiking-minimum-wage-threatens-us-jobs-2013-08-02?link=MW_story_investinginsight)

[Bavarian]

Minimum wage is a starting salary for untrained, unskilled people. They are expected to be promoted above minimum wage when they learn how to work and can get a better job, leaving the minimum wage job open to another person entering the workforce.

[gomoho]

Minimum wage is a starting salary for untrained, unskilled people. They are expected to be promoted above minimum wage when they learn how to work and can get a better job, leaving the minimum wage job open to another person entering the workforce.

Somehow we have lost sight of this - probably because we keep hearing how stinking the economy is and there are no jobs so people think this is it for the rest of my life.:shrug:

[Monkei]

Has anyone seen all the nauseating photos the employees of these fast food chains that have been put on the Internet, which the media has picked up?

A staggering $15.00 for that? No!

Please expand a little on why you call them that.

[De Lis]

Please expand a little on why you call them that.

I have seen photos on various newspapers of employees working in fast food restaurants doing unspeakable acts on food items. Surely you have seen these over the last couple of weeks!

We are about to set off on yet another long drive across America. We got tired of the fast food drive-thru, so we began going to a shop that sold foot long submarine sandwiches. Did you see the last picture of the man on the Internet??? Made my stomach turn over!

Yes, I know that every business maybe does something like this at one time or another, but the arrogance and stupidity of the people that proudly show it on the Internet tells me of the level of civility / decency / education these people have.

I'm not about to pay a staggering $15.00 for that.

[BarryRX]

Yea, I was wondering about that as well. Where is it that you can pay less than minimum wage if you hire for less than 40 hours?

As far as raising the minimum wage to $15.00, why not raise it to $50.00?

The problem with both of those scenarios of course is that the cost of every thing would rise tremendously. Another thing that many people that advocate this kind of thing don't realize is that raising the minimum wage would raise all wages. If MacDonalds begins paying their counter people $15.00, how much would they pay their shift managers that are now making $12.00 who oversee those $15.00 an hour employees? Certainly their salaries would have to be over $15.00 per hour. Based on the current ratio, they would need to be paid about $20.00. The the store manager who is making $18.00 per hour would need to be paid $26.00 per hour.

In another scenario, an employee that has been with a company for over a year and has been give a COLA and a merit increase from $7.79 per hour and is now making $9.00 per hour should not be making the same $15.00 per hour as the new employee hired yesterday.

Raising the minimum wage would have a huge detrimental effect on the cost of living so that the person now getting paid $7.79 per hour would have less buying power than that same person making $15.00.

Raising the minimum wage would hurt everyone and probably hurt the poorest among us the most. But, it would garner a lot of votes for politicians who vote for it.

On the other hand, eliminating the minimum wage and allowing people to take jobs for whatever they and an employer decide is fair would put more people, especially young people working part time summer jobs etc to work.

All true and an excellent post! Yet somehow we have to figure out how to solve some inequities. Today's minimum wage adjusted for inflation and iis more than $2 an hour less than the $2.25 minimum wage in the 1960's. the average age of a minimum wage worker has climbed from teenager to 27 years old. Many minimum wage workers today are not given enough hours to qualify for benefits. So while I agree that doubling the minimum wage to $15 an hour will not solve anything and may force many mom and pop businesses out, there are other issues that need to be looked at too. While I cannot readily cite the sources of my statements, I can relate a personal story of a minimum wage worker. My brother in law graduated stoneybrook univ. in NY in the 1970's with a BS degree. He couldn't find a job and went to work for Burger King. He was soon promoted to night mgr, then day mgr, then store mgr, then area mgr, then district mgr. they sent him to business classes at Wharton and Harvard. When they wanted to open up Europe they chose him and he spent 3 years in London. Then they wanted to open up Asia and again chose him and he lived in Tokyo for 2 years. He's 60 years old and has been retired vey comfortably for 10 years. Not bad for a minimum wage worker!

[gomoho]

BarryRX - that is the way it is supposed to work, but I'll say it again we have lost sight of these jobs being a stepping stone - people now see them as a career!

[billethkid]

the social environment we have allowed to germinate within our society breeds an entitlement type mentallity. For example, no matter how unaffordable new technology and data plans and internet acces can be, "they" all have it....whether they can afford it or not. Then there is an expectation that some way or another, there must be a way to get more money to supplement/subsidize the lifestyle to an almost you owe me attitude.

Some of us remember and still live by the a style that dictates you don't get it until you can afford it. And if you can't....you simply don't. An extreme contrary to today's mentality and to my surprise even supported by those who should know better.

If you don't or didn't earn it....you simply do not get it.....and YOU ARE CERTAINLY NOT ENTITLED!!!!

btk

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

All true and an excellent post! Yet somehow we have to figure out how to solve some inequities. Today's minimum wage adjusted for inflation and iis more than $2 an hour less than the $2.25 minimum wage in the 1960's. the average age of a minimum wage worker has climbed from teenager to 27 years old. Many minimum wage workers today are not given enough hours to qualify for benefits. So while I agree that doubling the minimum wage to $15 an hour will not solve anything and may force many mom and pop businesses out, there are other issues that need to be looked at too. While I cannot readily cite the sources of my statements, I can relate a personal story of a minimum wage worker. My brother in law graduated stoneybrook univ. in NY in the 1970's with a BS degree. He couldn't find a job and went to work for Burger King. He was soon promoted to night mgr, then day mgr, then store mgr, then area mgr, then district mgr. they sent him to business classes at Wharton and Harvard. When they wanted to open up Europe they chose him and he spent 3 years in London. Then they wanted to open up Asia and again chose him and he lived in Tokyo for 2 years. He's 60 years old and has been retired vey comfortably for 10 years. Not bad for a minimum wage worker!

An excellent post and you make some very good points. But aren't some of the problems that you cite the fault of some (not all) of the workers themselves? And can't we place some of the blame on our society and educational system?
Many of the minimum wage workers are not worth the money that they are getting paid. Many have not educated themselves and as another poster pointed out are part of the "I am owed" society that we have become. I believe that the high school drop out rate is the highest that it's ever been so we have many more uneducated people entering the workplace and don't have the skills to advance like your brother-in-law did. Have we not lowered the standards in our educational system to make the drop out rate lower than it even might be had we maintained the standard that we once had? So now we have high school graduates that have what would once have been an eighth grade education.
We also have had many colleges lowering standards in order to admit more students. I taught part time at a college of over 15 years and was continually stunned by the lack of knowledge and intelligence of so many of my students. Many, simply did not belong in college and should have been counseled to go to a trade school. But, we have also developed an attitude in this country that every kid must go to college. You are seen as a failure as a parent if you child doesn't go to college.
Many college's today are more interested in their bottom line and expanding so that they can make more money than they are the education of our future work force. College has become too much of a business today. We have kids graduating colleges that should never have gotten out of high school. Because of this, a high school degree is worthless today and a bachelor's degree, in many cases, is equivalent to what a high diploma once was.
I'm not saying that this is the entire problem and certainly there are some good qualified people out there who are making less than what they should, but there are at least as many who do not do enough to even earn the minimum wage that they get. How is a business supposed to succeed when they need to hire two incompetent people to do the work of one competent employee? On top of that, the government keeps making them pay the incompetent people even more.
There might be some inequity as you say, but I think that most people get pretty much what they deserve.

[Monkei]

I have seen photos on various newspapers of employees working in fast food restaurants doing unspeakable acts on food items. Surely you have seen these over the last couple of weeks!

We are about to set off on yet another long drive across America. We got tired of the fast food drive-thru, so we began going to a shop that sold foot long submarine sandwiches. Did you see the last picture of the man on the Internet??? Made my stomach turn over!

Yes, I know that every business maybe does something like this at one time or another, but the arrogance and stupidity of the people that proudly show it on the Internet tells me of the level of civility / decency / education these people have.

I'm not about to pay a staggering $15.00 for that.

So by just looking at the photos you were able to determine that THOSE picketing all or some of them spit in food?

Also, you are not paying 15.00 ... You are probable paying pennies on the dollar. I read somewhere that if they increased their sandwiches by 48 cents they could double the salary rate and also include full benefits. To me .48 is a savings compared to what I am paying for emergency room health care.

And, you could choose not to eat at one of the fast food places that chose to take care of their employees ... In fact it would be healthier for you not to anyway.

That leads to an ideal question. Would you pay 50 cents more for a burger at seller A who pays more than min wage and provides full benefits vs regular price for seller B who does neither?

I choose to shop at Costco because of that very reason. Somehow they pay their workers over 40,000 per year and give full benefit to both full time and part time employees while SAMs club pays less than 20,000 and cuts hours to avoid paying benefits, yet Costco made over 500m in profits last quarter. How can that be? You tell me whose employees are more of a drag on the economy?

[ROCKETMAN]

I would support $15.00 per hour plus there should be a provision that no amount of hours worked should effect that amount. Hiring for less than 40 hours per week to get around minimum wage needs to be seen for the terible thing it is. These tactics are turning this great nation into a third world for millions of us. If you cannot run a business and pay a living wage, then you should shut the doors and try something else.

Paying $15.00 minimum would put many places out of business. If you want to pay $7.00 for a big mac, that's not realistic. I worked in payroll for a large manufacturer where factory employees made $25.00 doing daywork but that was 10 years ago and now that is down to $15.00 per hour because no way you can compete with china in manufacturing.

[gomoho]

You might want to reread that article - it was done by an undergraduate using numbers only from company owned stores - not the franchises - so it's really not worth the paper it's written on. His own professor said it was not well done.

[Garden guru]

We own a small ice cream store in another state. Over the years that we have owned our business we have hired and trained over 125 teenagers. We've given them the opportunity to have their first job ever in a clean and safe environment. We teach them how to answer a phone, work with money, but most importantly how to treat a customer with excellent customer service skills. They learn so many life lessons from us so when they finally leave us after a couple of years then they are highly successful young people ready for the next position in life. This is a personal mission in our lives to try to make a difference.

If we had to pay $15.00 per hour, we could never afford to own our own business. To tell someone to" close your doors and try something else ", does not know a typical mom and pop operation.

I would enjoy meeting you at the next Crisper's meeting where I will be going to for the first time. I would be happy to share what we do with you if you would like to hear.

A minimum wage job for a teenager and a minimum wage job for an adult who's trying to support himself / herself are two different things. If an employer can't afford to pay a decent wage, he shouldn't be an employer. Let's have you support yourself on minimum wage for a few months and see how quickly you're singing a different tune!

[graciegirl]

A minimum wage job for a teenager and a minimum wage job for an adult who's trying to support himself / herself are two different things. If an employer can't afford to pay a decent wage, he shouldn't be an employer. Let's have you support yourself on minimum wage for a few months and see how quickly you're singing a different tune!

Some money is better than no money and most of us either worked a LOT of hourly hours at the beginning of our careers or knows someone who did.

Small business owners like Missy Pie are not able to cure society's ills. She is trying to make a living herself. Things are just not that simple. No one WANTS people to do without. Necessity is often the mother of invention. A man who I know who lives here, now a very secure person financially worked two jobs for 12 years when he was young. You have to crawl before you can walk. In this country if you get up early and work hard you can be rich. Then people can think you were born with it.

[Indydealmaker]

A minimum wage job for a teenager and a minimum wage job for an adult who's trying to support himself / herself are two different things. If an employer can't afford to pay a decent wage, he shouldn't be an employer. Let's have you support yourself on minimum wage for a few months and see how quickly you're singing a different tune!

You miss the point of minimum wage jobs entirely. Go back and read BarryXs post number 79.

You need to understand that each and every person working in a minimum wage position has an equal opportunity to move up and on. The sad reality is, even if you don't want to acknowledge it, many many people do not have the internal fortitude, basic upbringing, or desire to do what it takes to earn a living. Does that fact mean that everyone else is obligated to support them?

I can remember when my dad worked for minimum wage, but he worked two jobs and supported 8 kids. We never had much, but we had enough to eat and roof over our heads. Our home was neat, maintained without trash and jacked up cars in the drive. Living responsibly is a choice! In this day and age, you do whatever it takes.

[gomoho]

Sounds like we have some posters that would like to "occupy wall street"!

[justjim]

I have seen photos on various newspapers of employees working in fast food restaurants doing unspeakable acts on food items. Surely you have seen these over the last couple of weeks!

We are about to set off on yet another long drive across America. We got tired of the fast food drive-thru, so we began going to a shop that sold foot long submarine sandwiches. Did you see the last picture of the man on the Internet??? Made my stomach turn over!

Yes, I know that every business maybe does something like this at one time or another, but the arrogance and stupidity of the people that proudly show it on the Internet tells me of the level of civility / decency / education these people have.

I'm not about to pay a staggering $15.00 for that.


:mmmm: With all due respect, I don't believe everything I see on the Internet. Most fast food restaurants i.e. McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, Steak n' Shake, Arby's etc. run a pretty tight and clean ship. The minimum wage has always been debated and probably always will be debated. We went for years without an increase in minimum wages but prices still went up. How do you
account for that? I know it's complicated.......

[Jim007]

The 20 somethings that are supposed to be buying insurance, now or later, are definitely not the ones earning minimum wage. That is just not going to ever happen unless the employer can find a way to afford it. But the point is that most 20 somethings, regardless of their incomes, have no interest in health insurance. They are invincible and their disposable income goes for fun.

Not in my family, not with my children! My three daughters all in their mid-30's, early 40's, have always provided for their own health ins. They are responsible and certain things come before "fun". Specifically they are, taxes, life & health ins., long term savings for children's college exp., 401K, etc. They have always put their future ahead of their more immediate need for "fun". I don't think we can nor should lump all 20 somethings together, any more than we can or should lump all business owners together.

[Indydealmaker]

Not in my family, not with my children! My three daughters all in their mid-30's, early 40's, have always provided for their own health ins. They are responsible and certain things come before "fun". Specifically they are, taxes, life & health ins., long term savings for children's college exp., 401K, etc. They have always put their future ahead of their more immediate need for "fun". I don't think we can nor should lump all 20 somethings together, any more than we can or should lump all business owners together.
I do agree with you in one aspect. Not ALL 20 somethings are irresponsible. However, all you have to do is observe how most young people act and look at current stats on how many young people do not have health insurance now even though it is cheap and/or subsidized by their employers. Most young adults are not like your three daughters or my own three girls. They, too, learned the value of work ethic from the time they were in high school.

[Russ_Boston]

Not in my family, not with my children! My three daughters all in their mid-30's, early 40's, have always provided for their own health ins. They are responsible and certain things come before "fun". Specifically they are, taxes, life & health ins., long term savings for children's college exp., 401K, etc. They have always put their future ahead of their more immediate need for "fun". I don't think we can nor should lump all 20 somethings together, any more than we can or should lump all business owners together.

The VAST majority of patients at TVRH who are less than 40 do NOT have any health insurance. I would say the % that do is less than 20%. Not trying to start an argument - just stating what I see as real facts every day in the hospital. Maybe it's just this area but it is what it is.

[twinklesweep]

Some "generally speaking" questions:

This is post #65 in a long thread about the minimum wage, and no one has given a moment of thought as to WHY there is a mandated minimum wage to begin with. Could it have something to do with an attempt to "legislate morality"?

Why is it that some of those who recognize themselves as "realistic" seem also to realize that they come across at the same time as "unfeeling," that somehow "realistic" sounds like a good thing whereas "unfeeling" does not?

I too owned an extraordinarily successful small business and was fortunate that when it disappeared virtually overnight to India (and let's leave "greed" out of the equation), I was of retirement age and so it was all right. Maybe that is a selfish thought on my part, but what of those younger hard-working American business owners and their hard-working American employees: Where does it leave them?

I'm "bumping" my own post because, as this thread continues with more about entitlement and minimum wage workers not worth even that much, no one has even addressed why the necessity for legislating a "minimum wage."

Could this suggest that there are unconscionable employers who would pit one potential worker against another to get those who would feel forced to work for no matter how little, if a minimum wage were not defined by law? Really now....

Can anyone suggest other possible scenarios, particularly from those of us who had small businesses prior to retirement? I'm sure there are others.


So by just looking at the photos you were able to determine that THOSE picketing all or some of them spit in food?

Also, you are not paying 15.00 ... You are probable paying pennies on the dollar. I read somewhere that if they increased their sandwiches by 48 cents they could double the salary rate and also include full benefits. To me .48 is a savings compared to what I am paying for emergency room health care.

And, you could choose not to eat at one of the fast food places that chose to take care of their employees ... In fact it would be healthier for you not to anyway.

That leads to an ideal question. Would you pay 50 cents more for a burger at seller A who pays more than min wage and provides full benefits vs regular price for seller B who does neither?

I choose to shop at Costco because of that very reason. Somehow they pay their workers over 40,000 per year and give full benefit to both full time and part time employees while SAMs club pays less than 20,000 and cuts hours to avoid paying benefits, yet Costco made over 500m in profits last quarter. How can that be? You tell me whose employees are more of a drag on the economy?

We were all brought up with different values. And some of us rejected the values with which we were brought up. My parents would spin in their graves if I were ever to do such a thing. I was brought up to serve; some might find this laughable—and that's okay. It reflects on those laughing, not on me.

As a consequence, in a breath I would happily spend 50 cents more for a burger knowing that employees of that business were respected enough by the fair shake their employers were giving them. My experience is that employees express their gratitude for an extra day off with pay to handle a family crisis or for a Christmas bonus that reflects not only the success of the business that year but also that they are much of the basis for that success. Their gratitude came from my attitude and only indirectly from my pocket! Confusing? Not to those who understand!

Some would say that the burger would cost too much. I would say that I can choose to prioritize, for example, having one less burger a month to be able to buy burgers the rest of the time that result in a decent wage for the workers of that business. If we support businesses like that, then employees recognize their value from outside the company itself; they already recognize it from within by the willingness of their employers to forgo some profit in support of them. This is what I mean by "attitude." (And as I said in my original post, let's leave "greed" out of the equation....)

And I wonder if some would object to this as some kind of socialistic experiment (imagine paying a decent wage AND providing benefits!?) and refuse to patronize an establishment like this.... I don't know that this might be the case, but anything is possible.

I too shop Costco; and I too would be spinning in my grave in advance, so to speak, should I set foot in Sam's Club. (If I were a wagering person, I would bet that Sam Walton is spinning in his grave!) The only time I shop at Walmart is when what I need is simply not available anywhere else, and even then I feel uncomfortable. "But things are so much cheaper at Walmart!" I'm told. Yes, I guess they are, and so what? In reality we all have a price, sometimes measurable in dollars and cents—and at other times measured in sense without the dollars....

[Indydealmaker]

If you live or own in The Villages, you are one of over 100,000 people who CHOSE not to stay mired in a minimum wage job.

[TrappedCorrectCoaster]

We need to start paying a living wage not a minimum wage. Look at Costco they pay a living wage and have record profits. Companies that are big or small who don't pay a living wage deserve to go out of business. If your employees can't afford your products then your business model is not a good one!

[poker0814]

see how you would like it if the minimum wage was $15 and the next time you went to Mcdonalds, it cost $4.50 for a small fries

[twinklesweep]

see how you would like it if the minimum wage was $15 and the next time you went to Mcdonalds, it cost $4.50 for a small fries

If I were willing to eat at McDonald’s (which I’m not—but that’s a whole other thread), I would have no problem paying $4.50 for a small order of fries if I knew that it meant that the workers were earning a decent living wage. Too expensive? Then, as I wrote in my previous post, I would juggle my priorities and perhaps eat out less frequently and/or make other changes that would allow me, frankly, to live with myself.

For goodness sakes, these workers are our fellow citizens! We were all working people at one time, and yes, some of us (myself included) owned small businesses as well. Do we improve our lot in life by diminishing that of others? To each her or his own, I guess, but for myself (and this is how I was brought up), I would find that unconscionable! I just don’t get it when working people are pitted against other working people. It’s not hard to see who benefits when this attitude is encouraged….

[Wi11iam]

I hear you clearly, but I am sure you are wrong. Small business go under due to incompetent owners, not because they pay too much to their employees.

One question which has been asked over and over, have you ever owned your own business????:smiley:

[Golfingnut]

One question which has been asked over and over, have you ever owned your own business????:smiley:

Yes.

[DougB]

One question which has been asked over and over, have you ever owned your own business????:smiley:

Yes

[graciegirl]

How'd that go for ya?

I am sorry guys. I love you both but I just had to open my small delicate mouth.

[graciegirl]

If I were willing to eat at McDonald’s (which I’m not—but that’s a whole other thread), I would have no problem paying $4.50 for a small order of fries if I knew that it meant that the workers were earning a decent living wage. Too expensive? Then, as I wrote in my previous post, I would juggle my priorities and perhaps eat out less frequently and/or make other changes that would allow me, frankly, to live with myself.

For goodness sakes, these workers are our fellow citizens! We were all working people at one time, and yes, some of us (myself included) owned small businesses as well. Do we improve our lot in life by diminishing that of others? To each her or his own, I guess, but for myself (and this is how I was brought up), I would find that unconscionable! I just don’t get it when working people are pitted against other working people. It’s not hard to see who benefits when this attitude is encouraged….

Twinklesweep, please do not think that ALL people who do not support the minimum wage being at $15 dollars or making it so everyone has a "liveable wage" whatever that is, are not fair, kind, and caring of other people. Some are, maybe many are. But the person who said that most of us got here to The Villages by climbing the ladder of wage and work is probably right in my opinion. I haven't run into any trust fund babies here yet.

It is not only a matter of economics, where changing this would bring on an escalation of all prices, even for the low end of the wage earners, but taking away the way we are allowed and encouraged to begin humbly and work and make a better life for ourselves is just as bad if not worse than what you call entitlement. And that nasty stuff does exist, I am ashamed to say. This is my opinion, based on starting with very, VERY little and having more than I need to survive NOW, which I call rich.

I view the passage of my family from childhood and dependent financial living and their work history with great pride and see that most people who are able minded and able bodied and for whom college is too hard or not an option can start out with the current minimum wage and be able to make a good life for themselves. They may have to work two jobs when they are young like many people have in the past. I think how to live inside your income, even if it is low, needs to be taught to all children.

Making things real easy is often not the answer to social problems. Of course the needs of disabled on unable people who have no family calls to be taken care of by the rest of us, the government or by the social system. Unfortunately, whether it is true or not, a recent poll published last week says that 62% of the American people feel people take advantage of food stamps.

I see your kind heart and the kind hearts of those who support these ideas, but I have lived long enough to see that if you make things easy, you enable a good deal of laziness and help far fewer than you hurt.

It is important that people learn to take care of themselves and their own families...IF they can and that means doing without and sacrificing and saving and not thinking that what the people who have worked and saved and sacrificed for years, what THEY own and have is something you deserve at the beginning.

You would be willing to pay $4.50 for a burger at McDonalds because you have $4.50 to pay.

[gomoho]

Nicely said Gracie.

[buggyone]

What is not being addressed in all these replies is that the minimum wage (no matter what it is) represents the lowest wage paid. All other wages and salaries are above it. Therefore, all other wages and salaries would have to be increased in the same proportion as the minimum wage to keep things on an equal footing. Double the minimum wage and then all other wages would double, prices would keep up with that increase so profits would keep up, and there is no winner. Losers would include retirees as their Social Security would certainly lag far behind for a long time.

[Villages PL]

I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet but I would like to see "minimum wage" abolished.

When I was a young man I wanted a job very badly. I applied for a job as a helper in an automotive paint/repair shop. I was told they were looking for someone with experience. Minimum wage was about $1.25 at that time. I told the owner I would work for .75 cents per hour just to gain some skills. And he said, "I can't do that, that's against the law."

Why should there be a law that stands between business owners and prospective employees? Let there be FREE markets!!! Stop dictating wages and let supply and demand work the way it should. More unskilled people would be hired and trained.

[mulligan]

This is exactly what happens with immigrant labor. I personally witnessed a skilled concrete worker quit a $15 per hour foreman's job, and take a job as a laborer for $11 per hour--cash, no benefits, no worker's comp, no unemployment, no records.

[Bucco]

So many (buggyone, villages pl, and Gracie) hit it correct.

[buggyone]

I don't think we have anything to worry about a $15 per hour minimum wage in the forseeable future. Not even our worthless Congress (both parties) would ever vote favorably on such a bill.

Fast-food workers say they will unionize and strike for the $15 per hour wage but that is not going to happen, either.

We are not going to see a doubling of minimim wage so I suggest calling an end to this ridiculous thread.

[poker0814]

just think about 15 bucks an hour the next time you go to Mcdonalds and it cost you 4.50 for a small bag of fries-

[graciegirl]

I don't think we have anything to worry about a $15 per hour minimum wage in the forseeable future. Not even our worthless Congress (both parties) would ever vote favorably on such a bill.

Fast-food workers say they will unionize and strike for the $15 per hour wage but that is not going to happen, either.

We are not going to see a doubling of minimim wage so I suggest calling an end to this ridiculous thread.

From your mouth to Admin's ears.:BigApplause:

[DougB]

[/COLOR][/B]

From your mouth to Admin's ears.:BigApplause:

Think that would be "From your fingers to the Admin's ears (or maybe eyes)"