After stent, should Bush embrace Clinton's plant-based diet?

[jimbo2012]

http://www.mnn.com/sites/default/files/clinton-bush.jpg

Former President George W. Bush is expected to leave the hospital tomorrow (Aug. 7) after undergoing a stent procedure to open up a blocked artery in his heart today. Doctors discovered the potentially life-threatening condition during a routine physical through a procedure called a stress test. After the surgery, the 67-year-old was "in high spirits, eager to return home tomorrow and resume his normal schedule on Thursday," spokesman Freddy Ford said.

While several factors can influence heart disease, including high blood pressure, high cholesterol, smoking, stress and family history, Bush's stent is still surprising considering his active lifestyle. Known as a "fitness nut" during his two terms in the White House, he's since participated three times in the 100-kilometer (62-mile) Warrior 100K charity bike ride. As Reuters notes, he was also named by the website AskTheTrainer.com the most physically fit president in U.S. history.

"His physicians classified him in the top 2% of men his age for cardiovascular fitness," the site reported in 2008. "He went 26 minutes on a treadmill test (protocol unnamed), attaining a heart rate of 178 beats per minute. Bush's resting heart rate was 43 beats/minute, and his blood pressure 118/74 mmHg. His total cholesterol level was 170 mg/dl."

All this and he still had a blocked artery? What gives? According to famed heart surgeon Caldwell Esselstyn Jr., Bush's problem may not be so much his lifestyle as it is his diet.

"They say risk factors are diabetes, high blood pressure, smoking and maybe too much saturated fat. But when you really come down to it, food trumps them all," he told the Chicago Tribune earlier this year.

Esselstyn goes on to explain that the endothelial cells, which line the interior suraface of our blood and lymphatic vessels, pump out "marvelous amounts" of the free radical nitric oxide. Calling it "the absolute guardian and life jacket of our vessels," nitric oxide keeps the cell walls flowing smoothly and helps prevent infallmation, stiffness, and other factors that lead to blockages or plaque.

"Every time we ingest certain foods, it compromises and injures the endothelial cell's capacity to make nitric oxide. As we are constantly getting less and less nitric oxide, we are less able to prevent coronary artery disease."

Esselstyn counts animal and processed foods -"anything with a mother or face" - as well as sugar and coffee with caffeine as those "certain foods" that restrict our ability to create nitric oxide. The replacement food is all leafy greens and whole grains - and no oils.

"The last thing you need is oil. You never need it. It injures the endothelial lining," he adds.

While such a diet may seem tough to immediately shift to, Bush can at least take solace in knowing that another former president has managed just fine - and with amazing results.

Back in 2010, following a stent procedure to unclog a blocked artery (he had previously undergone a quadruple-bypass in 2004), Bill Clinton decided to pursue a plant-based diet. Along with Dr. Esselstyn's book "Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease," Clinton also educated himself with Dr. Dean Ornish's "Program for Reversing Heart Disease" and biochemist T. Colin Campbell's "The China Study."

"I'm trying to be one of those experimenters," Clinton said after making his new diet public. "Since 1986, several hundred people who have tried essentially a plant-based diet, not ingesting any cholesterol from any source, has seen their bodies start to heal themselves — break up the arterial blockage, break up the calcium deposits around the heart. 82 percent of the people who have done this have had this result, so I want to see if I can be one of them."

In the three years since making the switch, Clinton has lost more than 30 pounds and increased his exercise - walking two-three miles a day and enjoying sports such as golf.

The AARP recently highlighted Clinton's typical daily menu saying, "For Bill Clinton, breakfast is almost always an almond-milk smoothie, blended with fresh berries, nondairy protein powder and a chunk of ice. Lunch is usually some combo of green salad and beans. He snacks on nuts — "those are good fats" — or hummus with raw vegetables, while dinner often includes quinoa, the Incan super-grain, or sometimes a veggie burger."

Whether Bush decides to embrace a plant-based eating plan or not - it's clear that some changes independent of his fitness routine will have to be made.

"Lifestyle choices, such as diet and exercise, will be a part of this regimen as well as medications," Dr. Suzanne Steinbaum, spokeswoman for the American Heart Association and a cardiologist at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City told US News. "The stent allows for blood flow through the artery, but is not a cure for atherosclerosis. Although a relatively simple procedure, it is more like a Band-Aid then an overall solution. The next phase is prevention through healthy lifestyle choices, through diet, managing stress and continued exercise."

Source mnn.com

[Golfingnut]

No.

[getdul981]

No.

:agree:

[Bill-n-Brillo]

:agree:

:agree: :agree:

Bill :wave:

[graciegirl]

:agree: :agree:

Bill :wave:

What Bill said.

[billethkid]

ditto all the above!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Maybe he should look at the South Beach diet which has been proven to help people lose weight and also reduce heart disease.

[rayschic]

Why not try a change of diet ? He already exercises and seems relatively healthy but still had a blockage and required a stent. Clinton went from stopping at every McDonald's he passed, had quadruple bypass, changed to a plant based diet, and looks great. Bush should try the same.

[gomoho]

I think Bush already looks great - at least on the outside!!!

[Golfingnut]

67 and change diet. Really??? leave it alone. This stint should work for 20 + years. That will be 97 or 100 years old. Leave the guy to his steaks and French fries. If you took me off my high fat diet, I would prefer death to living longer. Please. If you are going to live a healthy life style, start at 20 not 67. I even use salt water for mouth wash. Enjoy your life and stop with the health food BS.

[graciegirl]

67 and change diet. Really??? leave it alone. This stint should work for 20 + years. That will be 97 or 100 years old. Leave the guy to his steaks and French fries. If you took me off my high fat diet, I would prefer death to living longer. Please. If you are going to live a healthy life style, start at 20 not 67. I even use salt water for mouth wash. Enjoy your life and stop with the health food BS.

I have always loved you, but never more than now. ;)

[Golfingnut]

I have always loved you, but never more than now. ;)

Back at ya girlfriend.

:)

[jimbo2012]

Let's get the naysayers to post a copy of their blood work and jump on a scale & post that number.

[ilovetv]

No.

[graciegirl]

Let's get the naysayers to post a copy of their blood work and jump on a scale & post that number.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kXlSIwGymqM/TO8m1GjV_NI/AAAAAAAAAqE/rN-hUH2S78E/s1600/Food+Police+Cartoon.jpg

[Golfingnut]

I prefer quality of life far more than quantity. I never fear death, but do fear not living.

[Golfingnut]

Euell Gibbons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euell_Gibbons)

Read about the guy that died younger than I am now.

[ajbrown]

[IMG] "He went 26 minutes on a treadmill test (protocol unnamed), attaining a heart rate of 178 beats per minute. Bush's resting heart rate was 43 beats/minute, and his blood pressure 118/74 mmHg. His total cholesterol level was 170 mg/dl."



I cannot answer for former President Bush. I suspect he has access to some pretty sharp doctors and will be listening to their advice ;).

That said what really blew me away was his numbers! Resting HR of 47!! On treadmill HR of 178. Holy MOLY!!! I do treadmill work and push my HR to 145 and that is enough for me. I think at 178 it may explode!!!

PS. I for one follow your posts (and a few others) on this subject with great interest. I cannot say I have converted to a plant based lifestyle, but I have taken a serious look at how I eat and made some significant changes to the better due to a few posters on TOTV and my followup reading.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Euell Gibbons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euell_Gibbons)

Read about the guy that died younger than I am now.

But you don't understand. Euell Gibbons ate meat. According to Carl Esselstyn we're all supposed to live on lettuce and celery. If you follow his program and you are not losing weight, he'll tell you that you're eating too many carbs. If it's still not working, you're eating to many calories. Then maybe you're eating processed foods.

Dean Ornish who has written books prescribing almost the same program that Esselstyn has, has admitted that their diets are very difficult to stick with.

Also there are hundreds of nutritionists and cardiologists who disagree with their premise. Arthur Agatston, a cardiologist is Miami is one who feels that sugar is more of a problem than fat. Sugar is in almost everything we eat and the amount of it and, more importantly, how quickly it is absorbed into our blood stream may have a more deleterious effect than eating healthy fats. To Esselstyn, there is no such thing as healthy fats.

Esselstyn has some anecdotal evidence where his program has been successful, (as does every other nutritionist and doctor with a diet book out there) but there have been no long term studies have been conducted to show that people who adopt this style of eating will, number one, stay on the diet If they do manage to follow this very difficult program there is no hard evidence that they will lose weight and improve their cardiovascular health.

Some doctors also have concerns about the detrimental effects of a completely plant based diet. Not only is it unnatural for humans but the lack of certain nutrients may cause other problems in the long run.

This has worked very well for President Clinton but that doesn't mean that it will work for everyone.

And as someone else pointed out what is the point of living a few extra years if you can't enjoy some of the finer things in life?

[jimbo2012]

That said what really blew me away was his numbers! Resting HR of 47!!

PS. I for one follow your posts (and a few others) on this subject with great interest. I cannot say I have converted to a plant based lifestyle, but I have taken a serious look at how I eat and made some significant changes to the better due to a few posters on TOTV and my followup reading.

Thanks AJ, aside from the wisecrackers, folks here really do read it, I always get the email or PM or two saying positive things.

According to Carl Esselstyn we're all supposed to live on lettuce and celery. If you follow his program and you are not losing weight, he'll tell you that you're eating too many carbs. If it's still not working, you're eating to many calories. Then maybe you're eating processed foods.

You know that isn't true vegans eat a lot more than lettuce and celery, I guess when you tried it, it just wasn't for you. Too bad it could have help your condition I think, those R the choices we make.

Dean Ornish who has written books prescribing almost the same program that Esselstyn has, has admitted that their diets are very difficult to stick with.

:icon_hungry: plant based is easier than waking up after open heart surgery or rehabbing after a stroke or heart attack .

Esselstyn has some anecdotal evidence where his program has been successful, (as does every other nutritionist and doctor with a diet book out there) but there have been no long term studies have been conducted to show that people who adopt this style of eating will, number one, stay on the diet If they do manage to follow this very difficult program there is no hard evidence that they will lose weight and improve their cardiovascular health.

Not TRUE at all totally mis stated :sad:

Some doctors also have concerns about the detrimental effects of a completely plant based diet. Not only is it unnatural for humans but the lack of certain nutrients may cause other problems in the long run.

Such as? care to specify?

This has worked very well for President Clinton but that doesn't mean that it will work for everyone.

It will work for almost everyone, but only about 6 million so far have the will power & desire to stop taking meds with their known side effects :undecided:

And as someone else pointed out what is the point of living a few extra years if you can't enjoy some of the finer things in life?

How about the quality of life in a nursing home for the rest of your life, is that one of those finer things to look forward to?

[Bill-n-Brillo]

Let's get the naysayers to post a copy of their blood work and jump on a scale & post that number.

From 08/02/13 "inspection" at the docs office:

Height 6'1"
Weight 205
Heart rate at rest - 58
BP - 116/72

Cholesterol - 140
Triglyceride - 101
HDL - 50
LDL - 70
VLDL - 20
Sodium - 141
Potassium - 4.1
Glucose - 92
Calcium - 9.3

etc., etc., etc.

Every number from every test was within accepted range.


I jog 3 times a week, 2 miles each time.

I take a mild dosage of cholesterol and blood pressure meds once a day as those had tested high initially about 10 years ago. By watching some of what I choose to eat - along with the medications - the numbers have improved to their current levels.

My diet is horrible by textbook standards. I'd describe it as mirroring "Selective Eating Disorder" without the social stigma part - people we know well joke with me about my eating habits all the time :D :

Selective eating disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_eating_disorder)

I have real issues with the consistency of many foods and thus won't eat them. Not much of a person to want to try new foods so what I eat is pretty much what I've eaten my entire life.

There are many, many foods I've never eaten and can guarantee you I'll never eat - salads (never had one in my life), most fruits and vegetables, and so on. I love junk food, crave sweets, and pretty much eat what I like. Give me a cheeseburger or a pizza and I'm a happy guy. But I eat lots of things like chicken, too. It's just the way I am - no apologies for it.

I feel fine, never missed work or school back in the day - - - and I enjoy life and what I eat.

Until something changes with how I feel or with the feedback the doctor gives me, I plan to continue along the same path. I really don't see any reason not to.

And at the end of the day, I could step off the curb this afternoon and get whacked by a bus or something. I want to be happy with my daily life.....just in case something drastic like the bus thing should ever transpire. Radically changing something like my diet would put a big damper on the "happy life" thing for me.

Not putting this up for debate - just offering the info as requested. Thanks!

Bill :)

[jimbo2012]

From 08/02/13 "inspection" at the docs office:


BP - 116/72

Cholesterol - 140
Triglyceride - 101
HDL - 50
LDL - 70


Every number from every test was within accepted range.



Sure, with the meds you take, surprised you don't see that.

You can eat even more bad food, just takes more meds, ya think?

[Cantwaittoarrive]

No.

:agree:

[Suzi]

My medical "mantra" is: everything in moderation. The problem that gets people in trouble is the defination of "moderation". I prefer to refer people to "the zone" diet. Its easy to keep. Not necessarily a losing weight diet, but a good solid diet to keep yourself healthy in the long run. Very few people eat enough fruits and vegs and consume too much starch/grains/carbo's. I would suggest that GW might have genetic heart disease. Doesn't have to be his parents.....could be farther back in his family tree. Generally speaking, from his numbers, he appears fit.

[Shimpy]

[QUOTE=Some doctors also have concerns about the detrimental effects of a completely plant based diet. Not only is it unnatural for humans but the lack of certain nutrients may cause other problems in the long run.

[/QUOTE]

Actually there is nothing natural about humans consuming meats. It has been explained that man isn't even a match for a 40 lb dog let alone running down game and killing it by bitting into it's neck as other wild animals. We haven't the teeth of a carnivore, rather we have the grinding teeth of plant and nut eating animals. Our intestinal tracks are very long as other plant eating animals as compared to the very short tracks of carnivores which also have very strong digestive juices as compared to us. Meat eating animals digest and get rid of it very fast due to it's short track and strong digestive juices. When humans eat meat it sets very long in us getting rancid.
There is lots to be said for a vegetarian diet.

[graciegirl]

Sure, with the meds you take, surprised you don't see that.

You can eat even more bad food, just takes more meds, ya think?

It is not a SIN or even an imperfection to take medication to improve your general health and to make the quality of life better. That is the reason we have brains to figure stuff out. What you just said is not logical reasoning to me at all. That is like ...You have legs, don't use a golf cart. You would be healthier if you walked everywhere.

My husband was born with Pete Marravich syndrome, he was born with one coronary artery instead of three. Although he has no problems the cardiologist prescribed statins to keep that one open.

Our daughter was born with Williams Syndrome where all vessels great and small are stenosed so she takes both statins and blood pressure medication to ease the load on her narrowed vessels.

Bill just said he was born with a selective eating disorder. He is doing pretty good, I'd say with no lettuce.

I have a genetic blessing that keeps my cholesterol down in the 120's.



I think this is a waste of typing. If you believe one way, no one will convince you of another as we get older it gets worse. And I include myself in that statement.

[jimbo2012]

Gracie, I'm speaking to meds for related ailments that can be eliminated thru diet.
(to say nothing of the known and unknown side effects)

You can correct plaque in arteries

High cholesterol tri's etc

Also BP

Type II diabetes eliminated.

The list goes on 6 million vegans and counting

Not speaking to the types of ailments that can't be changed other wise.

[jpharmat]

Sure, why not!!

[Villages PL]

Until something changes with how I feel or with the feedback the doctor gives me, I plan to continue along the same path. I really don't see any reason not to.

Doctors can't always catch clogged arteries in time. A local cardiologist was talking about the death of actor Gandolfini on the radio the other day. He said a person could have an artery 75% clogged and still pass a stress test.

[jimbo2012]

great example.

Oh just in on red meat (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/showthread.php?p=721677#post721677)

[Barefoot]

There will always be people who promote vegan or raw food or plant based diets. And who are deservedly proud of their healthy lifestyles, fit bodies and "numbers" on their medical tests.

There will always be people who believe in moderation, and in living life to the fullest with good friends, good food and good wine.

I don't understand why people in the vegan camp seem to want to change the lifestyles of others and make them feel guilty. Each to his own.

[Villages PL]

67 and change diet. Really??? leave it alone.

I was 65 when I completely changed my diet. Not because of weight or any health issue I had, I just wanted to be proactive. My goal is to try to prevent prostate cancer or any other cancer for that matter. (I know people will school me now and tell me that I could still get cancer.) Of course there are no guarantees. The best you can do is reduce your risk for disease.


This stint should work for 20 + years.That will be 97 or 100 years old. Leave the guy to his steaks and French fries.

If he improves his diet, whatever it is, he could possibly reverse his artery disease. But to continue, "his steaks and French fries", it's more likely he would need to add an extra stint about every 3 to 4 years. After about 3 stints, it's likely his doctor would tell him he needs a bypass. And, at any time along the way, he could be in danger of a major cardiovascular event, such as a stroke. So it's not something to take lightly.

If you took me off my high fat diet, I would prefer death to living longer.

Some people, like Clinton and others, prefer life and health. And often they can still find enjoyment in eating. It's just a matter of relearning how to eat. Why not wish them the best for a good life and health?

If you saw someone getting ready to jump off the Golden Gate bridge, wouldn't you try to stop them? Or would you say, "if I stop him, he will take his life at some later time anyway. Might as well let him have what he wants. It's his life. Go ahead, JUMP!" I know, I'm comparing apples and oranges. If someone falls apart slowly, it's much more acceptable.

[Villages PL]

There will always be people who promote vegan or raw food or plant based diets. And who are deservedly proud of their healthy lifestyles, fit bodies and "numbers" on their medical tests.

There will always be people who believe in moderation, and in living life to the fullest with good friends, good food and good wine.

I don't understand why people in the vegan camp seem to want to change the lifestyles of others and make them feel guilty. Each to his own.

Feeling guilty seems to imply that you know you're doing wrong. I can't help you with that. But there's no requirement that you follow these threads.

Some people, like myself, appreciate the help. I first learned about the benefits of a vegan diet by reading The China Study. The book was recommended to me on a message board, on another website. And it wasn't a health board. It didn't make me feel guilty; it made me feel as though I got my life back.

[jimbo2012]

Feeling guilty seems to imply that you know you're doing wrong. I can't help you with that. But there's no requirement that you follow these threads.



sooo true, but you notice there are many repeat naysayers in these diet threads that really have a keen interest.

[manaboutown]

I heard that vegetarian was just Latin for poor hunter.

Eskimos live on meat. What about other hunter gatherers? They seem to do just fine until they start eating a Western diet with sugar and refined carbohydrates.

I know a Frenchman who is 98 years old. He eats ham, cheese, butter, white bread and daily drinks red wine both at lunch and dinner. He used to smoke.

[CFrance]

I don't think Clinton looks that great. I think he looks haggard and skeletal, almost frail. Bush, on the other hand, looks healthy and robust, always has. And walking three miles a day? Pfft... That's nothing. Bush could ride circles around him in the fitness routine area.

[manaboutown]

Clinton does look gaunt and done in whereas President Bush looks terrific!

[billethkid]

I must be too old fashioned because the type of food I eat or do not eat does not enter into the "decision" as to whether it is worth living or dying. My need to be with those I lovehas far too high a priority.

Quality of life is a very personal state, unique to each individual. And up until one is ACTUALLY confronted with the decision to either live or die one has no idea what they would do until then and there. Without being confronted with a real, bonifide, choice of death over life, facing the actual prospect of real death, throwing down the gauntlet of choosing death because of a food choice amounts to nothing more than machismo bragadoccio bravado.

btk

[Duvalboomer]

Let's get the naysayers to post a copy of their blood work and jump on a scale & post that number.

Why would anyone post their confidential medical information on a web site because some stranger asked them too? I think that's nuts. If good or bad health was only a matter of what you eat life would be easy! You have food, genetics, environment, stress, amount of or lack of exercise and the list goes on and on. It always cracks me up when someone tries to put all of the ills of life in one nice basket, good luck with your grazing!

[Golfingnut]

I must be too old fashioned because the type of food I eat or do not eat does not enter into the "decision" as to whether it is worth living or dying. My need to be with those I lovehas far too high a priority.

Quality of life is a very personal state, unique to each individual. And up until one is ACTUALLY confronted with the decision to either live or die one has no idea what they would do until then and there. Without being confronted with a real, bonifide, choice of death over life, facing the actual prospect of real death, throwing down the gauntlet of choosing death because of a food choice amounts to nothing more than machismo bragadoccio bravado.

btk

You missed the point by several decades. Yes any sensible person would chose life over a cheeseburger, but I would take 70 years of cheeseburgers before 90 years of lettuce. :spoken:

[Villages PL]

Why would anyone post their confidential medical information on a web site because some stranger asked them too? I think that's nuts. If good or bad health was only a matter of what you eat life would be easy! You have food, genetics, environment, stress, amount of or lack of exercise and the list goes on and on. It always cracks me up when someone tries to put all of the ills of life in one nice basket, good luck with your grazing!

You mentioned food, genetics, environment, stress and exercise. Unless you can come up with another one, I don't think the list goes "on and on". You can put genetics aside because genes only cause a very small fraction of disease. Degenerative diseases are caused mainly by lifestyle. So that leaves food, environment, stress and exercise.

This thread is about Bush so I would combine environment and stress together. He lived in a stressful environment. His father was president and he himself ran for office several times. This is typical of a type A personality (driven, hard-charging, aggressive). That's what it takes to get to the top.

As far as food, we know he once had a drinking problem. And we know, as a Texan, he was/is a big barbecue guy. That's a no brainer.

That leaves exercise. Didn't the opening post state that he was in three 62 mile bicycle rides? We know he's very competitive. There again we see his type A personality. He's an overachiever and overdoes everything. He takes a pleasurable sport and turns it into stress. Chronic stress leads to elevated stress hormones (cortisol). Higher levels of cortisol leads to insulin resistance and higher levels of insulin (hyperinsulinemia). That, along with poor diet, is how heart disease comes about.

I think it's a pretty good educated guess based on what I know about him.

[CFrance]

That leaves exercise. Didn't the opening post state that he was in a 60 mile bicycle race? There again we see his type A personality. He's an overachiever and overdoes everything. He takes a pleasurable sport and turns it into stress. Chronic stress leads to elevated stress hormones (cortisol). Higher levels of cortisol leads to insulin resistance and higher levels of insulin (hyperinsulinemia). That, along with poor diet, is how heart disease comes about.

I think it's a pretty good educated guess based on what I know about him.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I believe you are overstepping to make such a statement. There are no facts to stand up to your "good educated guess," and that's about all it is. There are plenty of fit people around here who do 60-mile cycle excursions. Are they all taking a pleasurable sport and turning it into stress? I am astounded by the suppositions in your post, which appear to not be based on true facts about President Bush.

Oh, and I never voted for him.

I know you will come back with numerous points to uphold your suppositions, but ... I stand by my opinion.

[manaboutown]

Let's look at Warren Buffet. At his favorite restaurant in Omaha he has never been known to eat a green vegetable. He is in his eighties and seems to be doing fine on hamburgers, steaks and cherry coke. When he went to China someone went ahead to teach them how to prepare hamburgers for Warren when he arrived since that was about all he would eat. His buddy Charlie Munger is even older. I do not know what he eats but he still appears to be a functioning genius. Humans are omnivores. J. C. Penney and Conrad Hilton were both overweight and lived well into their nineties. Hilton partied hard, too.

[Villages PL]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I believe you are overstepping to make such a statement. There are no facts to stand up to your "good educated guess," and that's about all it is.

No facts? He served two terms as governor of Texas and two terms as President. Running for office can be a long drawn out stressful process. What kind of person would put himself under that kind of pressure, an easy going laid-back person? Is that your theory?


There are plenty of fit people around here who do 60-mile cycle excursions. Are they all taking a pleasurable sport and turning it into stress?

I don't know all of the "fit people" you're talking about so how would I know if they're turning it into stress? You took my post about one person (Bush) and took it to mean EVERYONE? I don't know everyone. But I do know a lot about Bush. He has been in the public eye for many many years. There was even a movie about his life.


I am astounded by the suppositions in your post, which appear to not be based on true facts about President Bush.

I believe I was using deductive reasoning. I took what I knew about him: 1) He has coronary artery disease. And 2) he is highly competitive/hard charging/aggressive. You don't get to be president by being laid back.

Those are 2 very important facts. Do you deny them?

Once you have those two facts, stress and food is a very good educated guess.

You criticize but have nothing to offer in it's place.

[Villages PL]

Let's look at Warren Buffet. At his favorite restaurant in Omaha he has never been known to eat a green vegetable. He is in his eighties and seems to be doing fine on hamburgers, steaks and cherry coke. When he went to China someone went ahead to teach them how to prepare hamburgers for Warren when he arrived since that was about all he would eat. His buddy Charlie Munger is even older. I do not know what he eats but he still appears to be a functioning genius. Humans are omnivores. J. C. Penney and Conrad Hilton were both overweight and lived well into their nineties. Hilton partied hard, too.

Those are anecdotes. The science of health is not a hard science like math. In math there's usually only one right answer (2+2=4). There's no exception to that. But health is much more difficult because there are always exceptions. However, exceptions don't make the rule. The rule is made by what happens to most people when they do XYZ. For example, overweight people are at higher risk for getting certain diseases like diabetes. And that's determined by doing large long-term studies.

[Hancle704]

Someone once told me that if you get proper rest, eat healthy , exercise regularly, don't smoke or drink alcoholic beverages, you will get to spend and extra 3 months living in a nursing home.

[Halibut]

Basically, then, Bush did everything right but still ended up with some level of coronary heart disease. So of course it's his fault and he should have done more. Or done something different. Or not done a third thing. Bah.

I had an "abnormal" stress test last year and let myself be bullied into a cardiac catheterization, which showed no blockages or narrowing at all. So, (1) the stress test was wrong, and (2) I'm 72 and a carnivore with no heart disease. My cholesterol is high and I don't much care and refuse to take drugs because of it.

There are no absolutes. Thin people develop Type 2 diabetes. Fit people have heart attacks. Not all smokers get lung cancer.

[Barefoot]

Those are anecdotes. The science of health is not a hard science like math. In math there's usually only one right answer (2+2=4). There's no exception to that. But health is much more difficult because there are always exceptions. However, exceptions don't make the rule. The rule is made by what happens to most people when they do XYZ. For example, overweight people are at higher risk for getting certain diseases like diabetes. And that's determined by doing large long-term studies.

It seems that the analysis, the statistics, the rules and the links can all be picked to support whatever point of view is being advanced by each poster.

[chachacha]

the point about carnivorous octogenarians is true but the disturbing thing for us now is that they have not spent as many years eating beef which is full of hormones and anti-biotics as the younger people have been exposed to. that is the only reason i am avoiding so much red meat. not on any religious or philosophical grounds, just protecting myself from the as yet unknown risks of these engineered foods, including some veggies! everything in moderation is a common sense lifestyle to me.

[jimbo2012]

Let's look at Warren Buffet. At his favorite restaurant in Omaha he has never been known to eat a green vegetable. He is in his eighties and seems to be doing fine on hamburgers, steaks and cherry coke.

Yep if you don't consider prostate cancer a problem.

[Villages PL]

It seems that the analysis, the statistics, the rules and the links can all be picked to support whatever point of view is being advanced by each poster.

What is your point of view and what reliable source do you have to support it?

Note: There's no law against the dairy industry, beef industry, or fast food industry posting information on the internet through third parties. For example, they could hire a doctor, dietition or whomever to set up a website to provide favorable information about their products. And once it's posted it's considered by some to be an "objective point of view."

[Villages PL]

the point about carnivorous octogenarians is true but the disturbing thing for us now is that they have not spent as many years eating beef which is full of hormones and anti-biotics as the younger people have been exposed to. that is the only reason i am avoiding so much red meat. not on any religious or philosophical grounds, just protecting myself from the as yet unknown risks of these engineered foods, including some veggies! everything in moderation is a common sense lifestyle to me.

Good thought but why not take it one step further: Octogenarians were also not exposed to nearly as much fast food as we are today. When they were growing up, there were no fast food restaurants or supermarkets. And during the "lean" years they most likely stuck to basics. Most people were not that well off back then.

There were many immigrants from Europe who were not in the habit of eating red meat and many of them kept the same eating habits throughout their lives. Plus the fact that they walked more and worked harder. Today, lifestyles have changed drastically but many people think they are entitled to live as long as their grandparents because of their genetic inheritance.

I searched "Red Meat" and here's what I found: (If you scroll down you will see the many health issues resulting from red meat consumption.)

Red meat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_meat)

[Duvalboomer]

You mentioned food, genetics, environment, stress and exercise. Unless you can come up with another one, I don't think the list goes "on and on". You can put genetics aside because genes only cause a very small fraction of disease. Degenerative diseases are caused mainly by lifestyle. So that leaves food, environment, stress and exercise.

This thread is about Bush so I would combine environment and stress together. He lived in a stressful environment. His father was president and he himself ran for office several times. This is typical of a type A personality (driven, hard-charging, aggressive). That's what it takes to get to the top.

As far as food, we know he once had a drinking problem. And we know, as a Texan, he was/is a big barbecue guy. That's a no brainer.

That leaves exercise. Didn't the opening post state that he was in three 62 mile bicycle rides? We know he's very competitive. There again we see his type A personality. He's an overachiever and overdoes everything. He takes a pleasurable sport and turns it into stress. Chronic stress leads to elevated stress hormones (cortisol). Higher levels of cortisol leads to insulin resistance and higher levels of insulin (hyperinsulinemia). That, along with poor diet, is how heart disease comes about.

I think it's a pretty good educated guess based on what I know about him.

I can come up with more for example accident such as in penetrating trauma and the list goes on from there. Stop deflecting, the OP ask if Bush should now consider a diet like Clinton's and my point is it's not that simple. For example how does anyone on this forum know what caused the blockage? maybe it was a combination of all of the factors, maybe it was pesticides in the vegetables he eats? maybe it was trauma caused a few years back when he almost chocked to death on a pretzel he was eating? I don't know and nether does the OP or you!

[Parker]

I don't believe George Bush likes broccoli anyway.

[perrjojo]

Should Bush change his diet? If he wants to.

[jimbo2012]

I don't know one 90 year old vegan, but I knew/know several 90+ year old omnivores.

That's because they look like they're 75, U didn't realize it. :D

[Barefoot]

Remember Euell Gibbons, the guy that promoted a diet of wild plants and berries? He died at age 64. He died from a ruptured aortic aneurysm. I always suspected a pine needle pierced his heart. ;)

It's dangerous out there, when you have to forage for food on the floor of the forest every morning. Maybe he died of boredom from eating pine bark.

[senior citizen]

Someone once told me that if you get proper rest, eat healthy , exercise regularly, don't smoke or drink alcoholic beverages, you will get to spend and extra 3 months living in a nursing home.


Yes.....to all of the above.....

..........or worse yet, die at age 60 from terminal lung cancer that spread to the brain and elsewhere after vigorous chemo and the best of surgery at Mount Sinai Hospital and also treatment at Sloan Kettering In New York City.....

Non smoking male. Avid competitive cyclist, cycled all over the world.
Ate a rigid vegetarian diet. Bone thin to the extreme. Successful businessman and owner of a large modern manufacturing plant; college grad. Engineer. Did everything right as far as his health was concerned but still suffered for years before dying at age 60. Entire family is bone thin; the daughter is a vegan; the wife a vegetarian (she has had years of cancer as well, but still alive).

All of that exercise and deprivation didn't help this guy at all.
He also played tennis and other sports........but cycling was his thing.

I do realize this thread began re heart disease, but this friend's lung cancer (even with all the best surgery and treatment), eventually somehow "wrapped around his heart muscle" according to what his wife told me.....

Sometimes I wonder if all the "fumes" he might have breathed in while cycling competitively and for pleasure..........didn't contribute to his lung cancer as he never smoked. So much for eating healthy when the environment might have played a role.

When I've mentioned this before, someone keeps calling it an "anecdote" when it is the God's honest truth.

People who fear death are the ones who constantly weigh every morsel of food that passes their lips rather than just enjoy the life that God gave them for however long that is.........

http://www.laurelofleaves.com/2012/04/a-vegan-diet-is-not-healthy/
This young woman obviously has not lived as long as many of us........
Yet, she still has something worthwhile to say, explaining why she thinks a vegan diet is not healthy.
It's a long blog....so please keep scrolling down.....

[CFrance]

Remember Euell Gibbons, the guy that promoted a diet of wild plants and berries? He died at age 64. He died from a ruptured aortic aneurysm. I always suspected a pine needle pierced his heart. ;)

It's dangerous out there, when you have to forage for food on the floor of the forest every morning. Maybe he died of boredom from eating pine bark.

He could have had pine mulch for free from my front yard.

[graciegirl]

He could have had pine mulch for free from my front yard.


Uhl Gibbons. Isn't he the fella that said that even elevator cable was edible? ;)

[CFrance]

Remember Euell Gibbons, the guy that promoted a diet of wild plants and berries? He died at age 64. He died from a ruptured aortic aneurysm. I always suspected a pine needle pierced his heart. ;)

Uhl Gibbons. Isn't he the fella that said that even elevator cable was edible? ;)

A 1974 television commercial for Post Grape-Nuts cereal featured Gibbons asking viewers "Ever eat a pine tree? Many parts are edible."

[cuzg8tor]

And now we have William Davis telling us it is the modified wheat and whole grain bread and pasta that is killing us and causing so many cases of celiac disease and IBS and gluten intolerance. Ref: His book, "Wheat Belly - Lose the wheat and lose the weight"

[senior citizen]

I don't think Clinton looks that great. I think he looks haggard and skeletal, almost frail. Bush, on the other hand, looks healthy and robust, always has. And walking three miles a day? Pfft... That's nothing. Bush could ride circles around him in the fitness routine area.

We agree with both what you've said above and also with Manabouttown as far as Bill Clinton looking haggard, (extremely) skeletal, frail and GAUNT.

Since we hadn't seen him in quite a long time, but caught him on t.v. last evening on some local news show.......I have to agree with both of you.

Extreme thinness does not always look so healthy.........no extreme is good.

Moderation in all things.....

[Villages PL]

I can come up with more for example accident such as in penetrating trauma and the list goes on from there. Stop deflecting, the OP ask if Bush should now consider a diet like Clinton's and my point is it's not that simple. For example how does anyone on this forum know what caused the blockage? maybe it was a combination of all of the factors, maybe it was pesticides in the vegetables he eats? maybe it was trauma caused a few years back when he almost chocked to death on a pretzel he was eating? I don't know and nether does the OP or you!

All of life itself is a contributing factor for heart disease. Does that mean we should stop thinking about the most obvious common cause of heart disease? The most obvious common cause is DIET, just as the OP has suggested.

I've read several books written by medical doctors/cardiologists and none of them have tried to make it as complicated as you seem to want to do. I think the point of trying to make it sound too complicated is to shut down all discussion of trying to do anything about it, like changing one's diet, exercising and controling stress. Those 3 are the main culprits and if the OP didn't mention all of them it doesn't mean that he doesn't acknowledge them as being important.

[Villages PL]

I don't know one 90 year old vegan, but I knew/know several 90+ year old omnivores.

Right now I don't know any 90 year old people. If I were to use your line of reasoning, I might think that 90 year olds don't exist. :D

Here's the likely reason you might know one group and not the other: There are many more omnivores than vegans. I was a vegan for over 6 years before I ever met another vegan in person. So, I don't know any 90 year old vegans either. Vegans of any age are very scarce.

Search: How many of us are vegetarian or vegan.

Answer: 2.5 % of Americans are vegan (as of 2012)

[Villages PL]

I don't think Clinton looks that great. I think he looks haggard and skeletal, almost frail. Bush, on the other hand, looks healthy and robust, always has. And walking three miles a day? Pfft... That's nothing. Bush could ride circles around him in the fitness routine area.

Looking haggard, skeletal and frail, or whatever you choose to call it, is what happens to some people when they lose weight in their older years. That's why I advise people not to gain weight in the first place. When a person has a lot of weight on them, their face is full and the skin is stretched out. And when they lose weight the first place they lose it is in their face. (Their face goes from a plum to a prune.) Weight usually comes off from the top down. Life isn't fair: People often have to choose between looking healthy and being healthy. It could likely be one of the reasons why so many diets fail.

[Villages PL]

Yes.....to all of the above.....

..........or worse yet, die at age 60 from terminal lung cancer that spread to the brain and elsewhere after vigorous chemo and the best of surgery at Mount Sinai Hospital and also treatment at Sloan Kettering In New York City.....

Non smoking male. Avid competitive cyclist, cycled all over the world.
Ate a rigid vegetarian diet. Bone thin to the extreme. Successful businessman and owner of a large modern manufacturing plant; college grad. Engineer. Did everything right as far as his health was concerned but still suffered for years before dying at age 60. Entire family is bone thin; the daughter is a vegan; the wife a vegetarian (she has had years of cancer as well, but still alive).

All of that exercise and deprivation didn't help this guy at all.
He also played tennis and other sports........but cycling was his thing.

I do realize this thread began re heart disease, but this friend's lung cancer (even with all the best surgery and treatment), eventually somehow "wrapped around his heart muscle" according to what his wife told me.....

Sometimes I wonder if all the "fumes" he might have breathed in while cycling competitively and for pleasure..........didn't contribute to his lung cancer as he never smoked. So much for eating healthy when the environment might have played a role.

When I've mentioned this before, someone keeps calling it an "anecdote" when it is the God's honest truth.

People who fear death are the ones who constantly weigh every morsel of food that passes their lips rather than just enjoy the life that God gave them for however long that is.........

A Vegan Diet is Not Healthy (http://www.laurelofleaves.com/2012/04/a-vegan-diet-is-not-healthy/)
This young woman obviously has not lived as long as many of us........
Yet, she still has something worthwhile to say, explaining why she thinks a vegan diet is not healthy.
It's a long blog....so please keep scrolling down.....

The above is what's known as a "straw man" argument. This is when you purposely misrepresent the other person's position. In other words, you create a person that doesn't exist. The person created in the above post, for example, believes in being "bone thin" and "fears death".

Disingenuous posts have no place on this thread, in my opinion.

[Schaumburger]

I am not a vegan, or a vegetarian. I love a good steak, prime rib, pepperoni pizza, Italian beef, etc. But I have a good friend who is a vegetarian, and when we go out we eat it is at vegetarian restaurants in Chicago. I have eaten some delicious meals at these restaurants. I have contemplated going one or two days per week as a vegetarian -- kind of like doing the no meat on Friday's during Lent but year around -- like in the old days that my parents would talk about.

There is an interesting article on AARP.org's web site about President Clinton's vegan diet along with some very good sounding vegan recipes.

[Duvalboomer]

All of life itself is a contributing factor for heart disease. Does that mean we should stop thinking about the most obvious common cause of heart disease? The most obvious common cause is DIET, just as the OP has suggested.

I've read several books written by medical doctors/cardiologists and none of them have tried to make it as complicated as you seem to want to do. I think the point of trying to make it sound too complicated is to shut down all discussion of trying to do anything about it, like changing one's diet, exercising and controling stress. Those 3 are the main culprits and if the OP didn't mention all of them it doesn't mean that he doesn't acknowledge them as being important.

Since science still has not determined the causes of heart disease how or why is DIET the most obvious common cause? I've read studies that say low magnesium may be a significant factor in heart disease and there are hundreds of studies that list other factors.

[jimbo2012]

U may want to read more studies?

[jimbo2012]

Double or nothing for $2,000 on diet

[Barefoot]

You're on. A diet of 25 eggs/day should clog your arteries, right? Not this guy.

And we always hear the "health food folks" tell us that eating eggs isn't good for us. Not so.

I think eggs are one of nature's finest foods, especially if they come from free range hens.

[Joaniesmom]

I think Bill Clinton looks really bad lately. Had you all not mentioned his new diet, I would have thought he was very ill.

[jimbo2012]

Was George W. Bush’s stent necessary?
August 9, 2013

The controversy surrounding the proper treatment of stable heart disease was highlighted this week by former President George W. Bush’s decision to have a stent placed, even though he had not had a heart attack and was not experiencing angina (chest pain caused by restricted blood flow to the heart). During an annual exam, his stress test showed an abnormality; then an angiography showed a blockage, and President Bush and his physicians decided to proceed with stenting. Of course, we don’t know all the details of President Bush’s condition, but the situation brings to light an important issue in healthcare in the U.S.: having a stent placed in the absence of symptoms is common in the U.S., but is it good medicine or malpractice?

I have written previously about the COURAGE trial —a large and important study published in 2007, whose conclusion was that angioplasty and stent procedures (percutaneous coronary interventions or PCI) did not offer any survival advantage over medications alone.After five years of follow-up, the group of patients receiving PCI did not have fewer heart attacks or cardiac deaths than the group who received optimal medical therapy (OMT; modest lifestyle changes plus anti-platelet, blood pressure-lowering, and cholesterol-lowering medications).1 Later on, meta-analyses of COURAGE and similar trials have confirmed the lack of advantage of PCI over OMT.2,3Further studies confirmed that PCI also did not provide any advantage over OMT for relief of angina symptoms (read more here).4 In light of this data, 2012 guidelines from the American Heart Association and related health agencies recommend medical therapy and lifestyle changes rather than these interventional or surgical procedures for first-line treatment of most patients with stable ischemic heart disease to reduce the risk of heart attack and death.

So, having an angioplasty or stent procedure does not provide any added protection against heart attacks or cardiac deaths in patients with stable coronary artery disease. But is there any harm in performing these procedures?

With every surgical procedure, there are risks and side effects. These aggressive coronary interventions carry the risk of serious adverse outcomes, such as bleeding complications, heart attack, stroke, and death.5 Stenting is appropriate and can be lifesaving in emergency situations, for immediate clearing of an artery and restoration of blood flow during a heart attack. But as the COURAGE trial has shown, for stable patients, stents do not offer benefit. In addition, stenting is of course more expensive than medications and lifestyle changes, adding to our current health care spending crisis. A cost-effectiveness analysis of the COURAGE trial estimated that PCI added $10,000 to the lifetime cost of treatment without providing any significant gain in lifespan.6Multiply that $10,000 by the number of angioplasty and stent procedures performed in the U.S. every year, which is about 492,000 (the vast majority are non-emergency procedures).7

PCI is not a long-term solution to coronary artery disease. Approximately 21% of stent placements clog up again (called restenosis) within 6 months, and about 60% of arteries treated by angioplasty and stenting eventually will undergo restenosis.8,9 PCI treats only a small portion of a vessel, while atherosclerotic plaque continues to develop at many sites throughout the cardiovascular system. Most often, the most risky and vulnerable plaque areas, likely to cause a heart attack, are not those that are most obstructing and treated with stenting. It is worse because the patient is led to believe they are more protected and often continues the dangerous eating style that was the initial cause of the heart disease; consequently, the heart disease progresses.

President Bush needed aggressive nutritional counseling and potentially life-saving nutritional information. It sounds like he was not properly informed of these studies documenting the ineffectiveness of PCI and the value of the proper dietary intervention. If not, I consider that malpractice. Every potential candidate for angioplasty (PCI) should know that their disease can be effectively reversed via superior nutrition and that surgical interventions are not protective against future events. Remember too, that almost half of all those on optimal medical therapy for high cholesterol and high blood pressure, still ultimately suffer heart attacks. Was President Bush informed about Dr. Ornish’s Lifestyle Heart Trial, which scientifically documented that lifestyle changes alone can reverse coronary artery disease? Even President Clinton could have shared his experience and expertise, since he worsened after his PCI and is doing well after ado pting a healthy vegan diet. Who knows what happened, but it seems unlikely given the media reports. It sounds like President Bush was misinformed about PCI by his doctors and given the false impression this procedure was life-extending and lifesaving. Certainly the media reports are giving this impression to the American people that this procedure was necessary for him.


Every day patients are counseled to undergo these unnecessary and potentially dangerous procedures by their cardiologists. Instead, an arterial blockage should be seen as a wake-up call, a motivating factor to pursue optimal health via superior nutrition and exercise. Optimal medical therapy is not enough; heart disease is preventable and reversible with optimal nutritional therapy, which produces dramatically more effective results than PCI or OMT and dramatic protection against future cardiac events. In my clinical experience with hundreds of patients with advanced heart disease, I have seen dramatic and consistent reversal of heart disease, relief of angina symptoms, and future freedom from heart disease in those who have chosen to follow my Nutritarian eating style. President Bush and his doctors had an opportunity to be a public example to educate and motivate other Americans to change their dangerous ways. I hope in the future President Bus h has the opportunity to make a lifesaving decision based on accurate information, before it is too late.

To your good health,

Joel Fuhrman, M.D.

Read stories of heart disease reversal with a Nutritarian diet.

References
Boden WE, O'Rourke RA, Teo KK, et al: Optimal medical therapy with or without PCI for stable coronary disease. N Engl J Med 2007;356:1503-1516.
Trikalinos TA, Alsheikh-Ali AA, Tatsioni A, et al: Percutaneous coronary interventions for non-acute coronary artery disease: a quantitative 20-year synopsis and a network meta-analysis. Lancet 2009;373:911-918.
Stergiopoulos K, Brown DL: Initial coronary stent implantation with medical therapy vs medical therapy alone for stable coronary artery disease: meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Arch Intern Med 2012;172:312-319.
Relief from Angina Symptoms: Percutaneous Coronary Intervention Not a Clear Winner. 2010. Journal Watch General Medicine. Accessed July 1, 2010.
Angioplasty and stent placement - heart. MedlinePlus. Medical Encyclopedia: MedlinePlus (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency) ... 007473.htm. Accessed July 1, 2010.
Weintraub WS, Boden WE, Zhang Z, et al: Cost-effectiveness of percutaneous coronary intervention in optimally treated stable coronary patients. Circ Cardiovasc Qual Outcomes 2008;1:12-20.
Go AS, Mozaffarian D, Roger VL, et al: Heart Disease and Stroke Statistics--2013 Update: A Report From the American Heart Association. Circulation 2013;127:e6-e245.
Agostoni P, Valgimigli M, Biondi-Zoccai GG, et al: Clinical effectiveness of bare-metal stenting compared with balloon angioplasty in total coronary occlusions: insights from a systematic overview of randomized trials in light of the drug-eluting stent era. Am Heart J 2006;151:682-689.
Hanekamp C, Koolen J, Bonnier H, et al: Randomized comparison of balloon angioplasty versus silicon carbon-coated stent implantation for de novo lesions in small coronary arteries. Am J Cardiol 2004;93:1233-1237.
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[Cantwaittoarrive]

I think eggs are one of nature's finest foods, especially if they come from free range hens.

I agree and I enjoy them all or most days a week

[Cantwaittoarrive]

I think Bill Clinton looks really bad lately. Had you all not mentioned his new diet, I would have thought he was very ill.

:agree:

[Duvalboomer]

I think Bill Clinton looks really bad lately. Had you all not mentioned his new diet, I would have thought he was very ill.

:agree::agree:

[villagerjack]

"The AARP recently highlighted Clinton's typical daily menu saying, "For Bill Clinton, breakfast is almost always an almond-milk smoothie, blended with fresh berries, nondairy protein powder and a chunk of ice. Lunch is usually some combo of green salad and beans. He snacks on nuts — "those are good fats" — or hummus with raw vegetables, while dinner often includes quinoa, the Incan super-grain, or sometimes a veggie burger."

NEVER!

[Villages PL]

Since science still has not determined the causes of heart disease how or why is DIET the most obvious common cause? I've read studies that say low magnesium may be a significant factor in heart disease and there are hundreds of studies that list other factors.

Most deficiencies are caused by poor diet. So we're back to diet.

It's strange that you mention all those hundreds of studies that no one seems to have heard of. Can you at least document a few of them with links or book titles?

[Villages PL]

Almost all of my father's immediate family died of heart attacks by age 50. They lived in different areas and had differing diets when they died.

Having differing diets could mean anything. Some ate jelly donuts, some ate cream filled donuts, while others ate plain donuts? In what significant way were their diets different?

Contrast that with my mother's immediate family that are all still alive at almost 90, living in different areas and having differing diets. Of course, my mother and father shared the same diet, up until he died at age 46. She's 87 now.

The last time we talked about this I mentioned the fact that Dr. Dean Ornish has stated, in one of his books, that some people have more cholesterol receptors than others. In that case, if everyone eats a high protein, high fat, high cholesterol diet, those who have lots of receptors may avoid getting heart disease and those who have too few will likely develop heart disease. But there are many other degenerative diseases caused by a high protein, high fat, high cholesterol diet. So you likely raise your risk for one thing or another by eating such a diet.

[Villages PL]

You're on. A diet of 25 eggs/day should clog your arteries, right? Not this guy.


And we always hear the "health food folks" tell us that eating eggs isn't good for us. Not so.

We've been through this already on another thread. As I have said, according to Dr. Dean Ornish, some people have more cholesterol receptors than others. So, a relatively few lucky people can eat lots of eggs or sausage etc. and their colesterol receptors will efficiently dispose of excess cholesterol. But they still raise their risk for many other degenerative diseases.

[Villages PL]

I think eggs are one of nature's finest foods, especially if they come from free range hens.

It's natures finest food for the chick that's about to hatch from the egg. ;) I've decided to eat 3 "Egglands Best" poached eggs per week under the heading of moderation. That's because I've determined I have a need for some extra iodine for "normal" thyroid function.

[Villages PL]

So, in other words, you agree that genetics can be at least as important as diet? ;)

Yes, in certain limited situations. Dr. Ornish specified that it's only a lucky few who can go all out and not get heart disease. Most people can't count on being saved from heart disease by having lots of cholesterol receptors. Now for those unlucky people who have too few cholesterol receptors, they can still avoid heart disease by eating a heart-healthy diet.

There has never been any heart disease in my extended (Italian) family so I suspect that we must have a generous amount of cholesterol receptors. But that doesn't mean I can eat anything I want. That's because, other than my grandparents, many in my family have had cancer. And the anti-cancer diet is basically the same as the heart-healthy diet. It seems there are no loopholes to get away from having to eat a healthy diet. Although, I have modified my diet to inclued 3 "Egglands Best" poached-eggs per week because I have decided I need some of the nutrition, like iodine, for "normal" thyroid function.

[Barefoot]

We've been through this already on another thread. As I have said, according to Dr. Dean Ornish, ......

Yes, in certain limited situations. Dr. Ornish specified ...... .

You have mentioned Dr. Dean Ornish many times in your posts. I believe Steve Jobs was a vegetarian. Do you know if it's true that Steve Jobs went on Dr. Ornish's anti-cancer diet before he passed away from cancer?

[jimbo2012]

Do you know if it's true that Steve Jobs went on Dr. Ornish's anti-cancer diet before he passed away from cancer?

Not sure what point you're trying to get at here is but Dr. Ornish recommended to Steve Jobs that he have surgery immediately upon getting his first cancer diagnosis.

He received no medication for a little over a year, he was also a Buddhist, that acted too late.

[Duvalboomer]

Most deficiencies are caused by poor diet. So we're back to diet.

It's strange that you mention all those hundreds of studies that no one seems to have heard of. Can you at least document a few of them with links or book titles?

Sure and B12 deficiencies are common in those that don't eat meat so I guess leaving meat out of your diet would qualify as a poor diet. No I will not do the work for you if you are truly interested you can look the studies up for yourself and if you are not interested why should I waste my time?

[jimbo2012]

The worst case id your B12 may low but not detrimental.

So to take a B12 tablet is just a precaution but not an absolute.

The fact that most animals, including humans, are capable of storing long-term supplies of B12.

In humans, these stores may last for several years.

By the we both take it. Checked on quarterly blood work and is always above normal.

Now should we also worry about vitamin D :1rotfl:

---


News flash: Most of the population (which eats TONS of meat and fish) is B12 deficient.
Please don't eat meat (and risk your health and that of the animals) for that reason. Just take the damn pill.

[Duvalboomer]

Maybe Bush and others should go on this guys diet which does include meat
Bolivia records: Aymara herder is 123 years old (http://news.yahoo.com/bolivia-records-aymara-herder-123-years-old-202553434.html)

[BarryRX]

I've commented on Jimbo's posts before. I am always trying to eat lower on the food chain, but occasionally fall off the wagon. I guess I would describe myself as a piscetarian (no meat but eats fish) most of the time. But since my wife is not of the same mind, it's difficult. Nobody loves a medium rare porterhouse more than I do, but I just feel better when I stay away from meat. I worry that Jimbo may turn people off from trying vegetarian eating by his "preaching", but it works for me both from a health and moral aspect.

[jimbo2012]

I have no intent to preach at all, I post articles by others.

Don't shoot the messenger please :1rotfl:

I enjoy sharing the success both my wife and I have experienced over the last 3 years on this lifestyle & plant based diet.

There are other benefits that may not be appropriate to discuss in a public forum.

[Barefoot]

You have mentioned Dr. Dean Ornish many times in your posts. I believe Steve Jobs was a vegetarian. Do you know if it's true that Steve Jobs went on Dr. Ornish's anti-cancer diet before he passed away from cancer?

Not sure what point you're trying to get at here ....

I was actually directing my question to Village Pl, but I do appreciate your response. My point was that a Vegan diet and an anti-cancer/Dr. Ornish diet did not prevent Steve Jobs from dying from prostate cancer. Perhaps because it was "in his genes".

Jimbo, as a personal note, I do believe in eating mostly vegetables and fruit, and I haven't eaten red meat in seven years, and my Lab numbers are healthy. But I also strongly believe that moderation is key ... Which Villages Pl says is just a excuse for "bad" behavior.

I think that having friends and fun are way, way more important than being overly restrictive. I think it's a positive thing to meet friends for dinner, to drink wine, and to have occasional treats.

[jimbo2012]

Restrictive to one person may not be the same to another agree?

I can assure you that being a vegan has no effect having friends and fun.

We meet friends for dinner, to drink beer - wine.

We don't go out to eat dinner with friends because we are starving for food we go out to socialize.

We party plenty we're not monks

I don't believe in diet moderation, it's simply and excuse for lack of will power.

But I commend the fact that you don't eat red meat a/ka dead animals.

[Villages PL]

I was actually directing my question to Village Pl, but I do appreciate your response. My point was that a Vegan diet and an anti-cancer/Dr. Ornish diet did not prevent Steve Jobs from dying from prostate cancer. Perhaps because it was "in his genes".

Jimbo, as a personal note, I do believe in eating mostly vegetables and fruit, and I haven't eaten red meat in seven years, and my Lab numbers are healthy. But I also strongly believe that moderation is key ... Which Villages Pl says is just a excuse for "bad" behavior.

I think that having friends and fun are way, way more important than being overly restrictive. I think it's a positive thing to meet friends for dinner, to drink wine, and to have occasional treats.

I never followed what was going on with Steve Jobs regarding his health, and that's why I didn't answer your post. I just did a little online search and learned that he had pancreatic cancer. He also had a liver transplant prior to that. One account stated that he put off surgery for 6 months so he could try some kind of dietary remedy and that cost him his life.

I have never made a blanket statement that diet will cure cancer. My previous statement about an anti-cancer diet is for the purpose of prevention (i.e., lowering ones risk).

Doctor Ornish did a clinical study with prostate cancer patients and the result was that his patients were able to reduce their PSA numbers by going on a vegan diet. This may be a good option for older men who have been diagnosed with slow growing prostate cancer.

About Steeve Jobs: I don't know exactly what his diet consisted of and I don't know what his stress levels were and I don't know how or if he exercised. And I don't know anything about his genetic family history. As far as diet: Probably no two vegans eat the exact same diet, just as no two carnivores eat the exact same diet. There are at least a few ways to ruin a vegan diet, for example, eating a lot of refined sugar is one way. And job stress, which I believe Steve Jobs likely had, can lower one's immune system. I don't know why he got cancer, I'm just saying that there could have been various lifestyle choices that could have caused problems inspite of his diet, whatever it was.