The Lady Lake meeting to discuss the Paradise Dr. Cart Access

[EdV]

For those of you who plan to attend the meeting tomorrow evening regarding the Golf Cart Thoroughfare to/from Paradise Drive, below is my letter to Mayor Richards regarding my opinions on the matter.

I urge my fellow Stonecrest neighbors as well as other open minded neighbors to print this out and bring it to the meeting in an effort to ensure that these issues will be discussed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mayor Richards,

Attached please find a copy of the letter from Gary Moyer to Janet Tutt regarding the removal of the recently erected wall and recommending approval by the VCCDD to take ownership of the golf cart thoroughfare that was approved by the Town of Lady Lake in 1998. It further indicates that they intend to install an access gate on that thoroughfare that would restrict access to Villages Residents only.

I believe that regardless of whether or not ownership of that thoroughfare is transferred, the Town of Lady Lake must deny any request to install any such gate that will restrict access to only Villages residents, for the following reasons:

1. Resolution 98-106 requested approval for construction of a golf cart thoroughfare, not a restricted access gated entryway.
2. The approved engineering plans do not show any such gates.
3. Paradise Drive on the eastern end of that thoroughfare is a public access road and the property on the western side is a public access parking lot.
4. The proposed gate would provide access to medical, retail, and restaurant facilities by Villages resident seniors while at the same time denying access by Stonecrest and eventually Spruce Creek South resident seniors to similar facilities in Lady Lake and beyond. And it should be noted that some of these seniors do not own automobiles and this has been their only way to access those facilities (including the Lady Lake US Post Office) for many years now.
5. The VCCDD is a Community Development District that is a public non-profit unit of local government. As such, any roads, throughways, or multi-modal cart paths under its jurisdiction must be accessible to the public.
6. The multi-modal paths (not golf course paths) used by carts for transportation throughout TV are an integral part of the public access roadways within TV and are not private recreational facilities as some have suggested. They were built to provide golf cart access where travel on the regular roads by carts is prohibited due to safety concerns. Their primary function is transportation, not recreation. Furthermore, they were built with tax free municipal bond funds. And although they are maintained with VCCDD amenity funds, that does not empower the VCCDD to declare them private any more than a city or town with a local tax can declare some of their streets for resident use only.
7. Access through this cart thoroughfare by non TV residents does not in any way compromise the exclusivity of the numerous private recreational facilities in TV any more than access by automobile does.
8. This golf cart thoroughfare has been available as approved in an unrestricted manner for the better part of fifteen years now. If the intent was to create a TV resident only golf cart access to and from Paradise Drive, it should have been clearly stated as such in the 1998 resolution. But it wasn�t.

If the proposed change requires installation of a gate for security or safety reasons, it must not require an access card and any such addition should require submission and approval by the Town of Lady Lake.

Respectfully,

EdV
Stonecrest Resident, Summerfield Florida

[buggyone]

Your point #6 is WRONG. The multi-modal trails are private property. Say what you want - it is a Constitutional right of yours - but the multi-modal trails are private property. END OF DISCUSSION.

[EdV]

And some people just can't handle the truth!

[mulligan]

Your point #6 is WRONG. The multi-modal trails are private property. Say what you want - it is a Constitutional right of yours - but the multi-modal trails are private property. END OF DISCUSSION.

Interesting thought, but what's in question are cart lanes on public roads, and their access.

[Steve9930]

Your point #6 is WRONG. The multi-modal trails are private property. Say what you want - it is a Constitutional right of yours - but the multi-modal trails are private property. END OF DISCUSSION.


What is the difference between the paths. There are paths that run behind the houses and interconnect with Golf Cart Trails and there are paths that run parallel with the roads. Please define the official definition of each.

[nitakk]

Ed - please provide us with the Moyer-Tutt letter. I do plan on attending tomorrow night and will use your post. This is not a case of us (TV) versus them (Stonecrest) which, unfortunately, it seems to have degenerated to. It is a case of a wall going up without a permit and in violation of a 1998 resolution. And yes, I live in TV and have for almost ten years.

[EdV]

What is the difference between the paths. There are paths that run behind the houses and interconnect with Golf Cart Trails and there are paths that run parallel with the roads. Please define the official definition of each.

Click on this link for a great interactive view of the multi-modal paths throughout the villages. They're not golf cart paths but the paths used for transportation throughout the entire area.

Carting The Villages -Home (http://cartingthevillages.com/index.php)

[bkcunningham1]

EdV, why did you change your opinion about the path being blocked?

Your response from a previous thread about the closure: "But regarding access by Stonecrest residents, let me give you my thoughts. Stonecrest has around 2000 homes, but unlike TV where there are roughly 40,000 golf carts, Stonecrest has at most 500 carts. And of those, not many of them would be using that dusty cart path and the narrow golf cart bridge to Spanish Springs very often. The importance of Stonecrest in the golf cart path into TV has been grossly exaggerated.

"Clearly there is something else afoot and time will tell as we sort it out. But I haven�t seen this much excitement on TOTV in quite a while.

"Buckle Up as Bettie Davis once said."

[EdV]

EdV, why did you change your opinion about the path being blocked?

I never have changed my opinion. It's wrong.

[bkcunningham1]

I never have changed my opinion. It's wrong.

You know what I meant. I am not being confrontational with you. I was hoping to gain insight into your thinking and I was hoping your answer would be informational to me.

EDIT: And for the record, I meant your opinion about the impact to Stonecrest residents.

[EdV]

Ed - please provide us with the Moyer-Tutt letter. I do plan on attending tomorrow night and will use your post. This is not a case of us (TV) versus them (Stonecrest) which, unfortunately, it seems to have degenerated to. It is a case of a wall going up without a permit and in violation of a 1998 resolution. And yes, I live in TV and have for almost ten years.

Here you are.

Moyer-Tutt letter.
(http://www.districtgov.org/PdfView/PdfView.aspx?path='/PdfUpload/VLS Letter 8.15.13.pdf'&ql=standard)

I wish I could be there but I on top of a mountain with a busted kneecap.

[EdV]

You know what I meant. I am not being confrontational with you. I was hoping to gain insight into your thinking and I was hoping your answer would be informational to me.

EDIT: And for the record, I meant your opinion about the impact to Stonecrest residents.

Honestly BK I'm not sure what you meant. But it is getting late and my neighbors up here insisted that I join them for a happy hour gathering so please understand, I'm a bit fuzzy at this point.

[bkcunningham1]

Honestly BK I'm not sure what you meant. But it is getting late and my neighbors up here insisted that I join them for a happy hour gathering so please understand, I'm a bit fuzzy at this point.

Well, have fun. Be safe. Don't get eaten by a bear. Heal quickly. I love those beautiful Smoky Mountains.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

EdV, have you gotten a legal and professional opinion from a local lawyer on this issue, or are your posts your own personal opinion? I am just curious as to where you got your facts which seem like they are somewhat legal sounding.

[Peachie]

For those of you who plan to attend the meeting tomorrow evening regarding the Golf Cart Thoroughfare to/from Paradise Drive, below is my letter to Mayor Richards regarding my opinions on the matter.

I urge my fellow Stonecrest neighbors as well as other open minded neighbors to print this out and bring it to the meeting in an effort to ensure that these issues will be discussed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mayor Richards,

Attached please find a copy of the letter from Gary Moyer to Janet Tutt regarding the removal of the recently erected wall and recommending approval by the VCCDD to take ownership of the golf cart thoroughfare that was approved by the Town of Lady Lake in 1998. It further indicates that they intend to install an access gate on that thoroughfare that would restrict access to Villages Residents only.

I believe that regardless of whether or not ownership of that thoroughfare is transferred, the Town of Lady Lake must deny any request to install any such gate that will restrict access to only Villages residents, for the following reasons:

1. Resolution 98-106 requested approval for construction of a golf cart thoroughfare, not a restricted access gated entryway.
2. The approved engineering plans do not show any such gates.
3. Paradise Drive on the eastern end of that thoroughfare is a public access road and the property on the western side is a public access parking lot.
4. The proposed gate would provide access to medical, retail, and restaurant facilities by Villages resident seniors while at the same time denying access by Stonecrest and eventually Spruce Creek South resident seniors to similar facilities in Lady Lake and beyond. And it should be noted that some of these seniors do not own automobiles and this has been their only way to access those facilities (including the Lady Lake US Post Office) for many years now.
5. The VCCDD is a Community Development District that is a public non-profit unit of local government. As such, any roads, throughways, or multi-modal cart paths under its jurisdiction must be accessible to the public.
6. The multi-modal paths (not golf course paths) used by carts for transportation throughout TV are an integral part of the public access roadways within TV and are not private recreational facilities as some have suggested. They were built to provide golf cart access where travel on the regular roads by carts is prohibited due to safety concerns. Their primary function is transportation, not recreation. Furthermore, they were built with tax free municipal bond funds. And although they are maintained with VCCDD amenity funds, that does not empower the VCCDD to declare them private any more than a city or town with a local tax can declare some of their streets for resident use only.
7. Access through this cart thoroughfare by non TV residents does not in any way compromise the exclusivity of the numerous private recreational facilities in TV any more than access by automobile does.
8. This golf cart thoroughfare has been available as approved in an unrestricted manner for the better part of fifteen years now. If the intent was to create a TV resident only golf cart access to and from Paradise Drive, it should have been clearly stated as such in the 1998 resolution. But it wasn�t.

If the proposed change requires installation of a gate for security or safety reasons, it must not require an access card and any such addition should require submission and approval by the Town of Lady Lake.

Respectfully,

EdV
Stonecrest Resident, Summerfield Florida



EdV, why don't you explain to The Villages residents how a determination in favor of Stonecresters using The Villages private golf cart paths by the powers that be, sets a new precedent for accessing The Villages.

If this access that Stonecrest is insisting upon is allowed in The Villages, more lawsuits would most likely ensue from abutting properties claiming entitlement to public access to anywhere in The Villages on Village private cart paths.

Villagers, that sucking sound you would be hearing is lost value of your property. Public access to your private cart paths through our neighborhoods by surrounding communities such as Stonecrest, Wildwood, Spruce Creek, perhaps Fruitland Park would devastate The Villages as our community was never meant to handle the volume of traffic from neighboring golf carts.

I stated earlier that you can't un-ring a bell and EdV, I think you're very aware that a ruling in your favor could not be upheld for Stonecresters only.

[Steve9930]

Click on this link for a great interactive view of the multi-modal paths throughout the villages. They're not golf cart paths but the paths used for transportation throughout the entire area.

Carting The Villages -Home (http://cartingthevillages.com/index.php)

Here's my opinion for what its worth and a whole bunch of years in engineering that I'm trying to forget. Those paths were designed for safe transportation by Golf Cart and are an integral part of the existing road way system. If Tax free Bond money was used to build them they fall into the same category as the road way. You can scream all you want about private property but I believe you'll loose the argument. If I was in the Villages I'd be pushing for some sort of Trail Sticker that you can purchase to aid in the maintenance fees for these paths. I also believe the Villages would have the authority to put that into effect. Just like Fruitland Park has a similar system. If they were private property you could use gates along the path to limit access into the individual neighborhoods which don't exist.

Again, I will say with all this talk about outside access your eyes are being taken off the original problem. I have a real good idea what this is about. Remember after the resolution surfaced 98-106 the wall came down pronto. But Murray Construction tried to get a permit for demoing the site and building a house. That's because the powers in charge who ever they are knows that Lady Lake will most likely not a allow restricted access gate, if a gate at all. They want this gate closed. Look at the whole picture and follow the money. Work together on this or you all will loose the fight.

I'm pretty much done with this as I believe this horse has been beat to death. Send me a direct message if you wish to discuss this with me but I'm done after this post.

My concern is at the Wal-Mart end and keeping that open because I like going to all the stores on the North East side of the gate. As for going into the villages I think going over that bridge is an accident waiting to happen. I'll drive my car its safer.

Good luck to all.

[THE NEWCOMER]

Can a Villager with a golf cart access Stonecrest or Spruce Creek without being a resident of either community?

[Steve9930]

Can a Villager with a golf cart access Stonecrest or Spruce Creek without being a resident of either community?

Yes, if you go through the front gate and get a gate pass. Access to the Restaurant and Golf are open to the public. No one will stop you if you cruse the neighborhood.

[EdV]

So far, none of you have addressed specifically the numbered items I have listed, other than rhetorical pot shots.

If you'd like to debate the issues, that's fine but let's do so intelligently shall we?

[bkcunningham1]

Yes, if you go through the front gate and get a gate pass. Access to the Restaurant and Golf are open to the public. No one will stop you if you cruse the neighborhood.

How do you get a gate pass?

[SpicyCajunPugs]

So far, none of you have addressed specifically the numbered items I have listed, other than rhetorical pot shots.

If you'd like to debate the issues, that's fine but let's do so intelligently shall we?

I politely asked you if you have gotten a professional legal opinion from a local attorney, or are your posts solely your own opinion...There was no rhetoric or "pot shot" involved. Again, are your opinions and statements based on a lawyers professional opinion, and if so, please name him or her.

[EdV]

How do you get a gate pass?

Just show up in your car or golf cart and say you're going to the golf course or the golf course restaurant. That's all. Our by-laws mandate that.

[Peachie]

Here's my opinion for what its worth and a whole bunch of years in engineering that I'm trying to forget. Those paths were designed for safe transportation by Golf Cart and are an integral part of the existing road way system. If Tax free Bond money was used to build them they fall into the same category as the road way. You can scream all you want about private property but I believe you'll loose the argument. If I was in the Villages I'd be pushing for some sort of Trail Sticker that you can purchase to aid in the maintenance fees for these paths. I also believe the Villages would have the authority to put that into effect. Just like Fruitland Park has a similar system. If they were private property you could use gates along the path to limit access into the individual neighborhoods which don't exist.

Again, I will say with all this talk about outside access your eyes are being taken off the original problem. I have a real good idea what this is about. Remember after the resolution surfaced 98-106 the wall came down pronto. But Murray Construction tried to get a permit for demoing the site and building a house. That's because the powers in charge who ever they are knows that Lady Lake will most likely not a allow restricted access gate, if a gate at all. They want this gate closed. Look at the whole picture and follow the money. Work together on this or you all will loose the fight.

I'm pretty much done with this as I believe this horse has been beat to death. Send me a direct message if you wish to discuss this with me but I'm done after this post.

My concern is at the Wal-Mart end and keeping that open because I like going to all the stores on the North East side of the gate. As for going into the villages I think going over that bridge is an accident waiting to happen. I'll drive my car its safer.

Good luck to all.


I'm so very tired of this too, Steve.

But EdV is fanning the flames to keep a public gate into and through a private Village neighborhood. It's EdV's perogative as Stonecrester to fight for a ruling that would enhance his community and others but I really don't think The Villages residents are fully aware of the ramifications of a ruling in favor of removing the gate from that area.

[EdV]

I politely asked you if you have gotten a professional legal opinion from a local attorney, or are your posts solely your own opinion...There was no rhetoric or "pot shot" involved. Again, are your opinions and statements based on a lawyers professional opinion, and if so, please name him or her.

They are my opinions based on many years as a resident in this tri-county community. If you see things differently why not address each one with your own view of it?

I'm willing to discuss it. Are you?

[Skybo]

EdV, why don't you explain to The Villages residents how a determination in favor of Stonecresters using The Villages private golf cart paths by the powers that be, sets a new precedent for accessing The Villages.

If this access that Stonecrest is insisting upon is allowed in The Villages, more lawsuits would most likely ensue from abutting properties claiming entitlement to public access to anywhere in The Villages on Village private cart paths.

Villagers, that sucking sound you would be hearing is lost value of your property. Public access to your private cart paths through our neighborhoods by surrounding communities such as Stonecrest, Wildwood, Spruce Creek, perhaps Fruitland Park would devastate The Villages as our community was never meant to handle the volume of traffic from neighboring golf carts.

I stated earlier that you can't un-ring a bell and EdV, I think you're very aware that a ruling in your favor could not be upheld for Stonecresters only.

Yup. A few folks have brought up that concern throughout the various threads, but they've been ignored. Hopefully this post will get the attention of all Villagers, including those who don't have a problem with a "few Stonecrest" residents having golf cart access.

[Steve9930]

How do you get a gate pass?


Drive to the Stonecrest front gate and just ask for a pass and tell them where you are going. The restaurant, golf course, and sales center all open to the public. There is also a garage sale once a year that the general public is allowed to come into and buy some one else's junk. The pass will have a date. With autos I believe they take the license number. I don't have the front gate number so you could call them. If you have friends that live in Stonecrest you can be put on their list and then you can come in anytime to visit otherwise they need to call the gate to give them your name so they will be expecting you. We've had a change in the security company so I'm not sure what else they may or may no be doing. I'm up here in Ohio for the summer and will be back in September. Hopefully to a a more peaceful area neighborhood. Life is just to short to get all upset about the little things.

[Peachie]

So far, none of you have addressed specifically the numbered items I have listed, other than rhetorical pot shots.

If you'd like to debate the issues, that's fine but let's do so intelligently shall we?

EdV, which are the rhetorical pot shots and not addressing the issue at hand?

[GeorgeMiller061]

I truly believe that the WALL had nothing to do with Stonecrest & everything to do with the new Harbor Chase facility being built.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

They are my opinions based on many years as a resident in this tri-county community. If you see things differently why not address each one with your own view of it?

I'm willing to discuss it. Are you?

Since your opinions are stating "legalities" without the benefit of legal training or professional legal opinions, there is no reason to debate with you. The law and the lawyers will prevail and determine what will be done regardless of anyone's feelings or opinions of a non legal nature. That is typically what always happens. I think you need to be careful of quoting legalities without the knowledge or training to do so. But good luck to you as well as TV'ers tommorrow. I am sure a legal and just solution will be accomplished.

[THE NEWCOMER]

Yes, if you go through the front gate and get a gate pass. Access to the Restaurant and Golf are open to the public. No one will stop you if you cruse the neighborhood.

So its a gate community and you have to get a PASS to access your community. "Access to the Restaurant and Golf are open to the public." So The Villages is a gated communtiy and your need a Village residents pass to access through the gate. The problem sounds to me that the residents of Stonecrest/Spruce Creek have more to lose than The Villagers. You have access across 441/27 at a certain location that we don't have. We have the golf cart bridge over 441/27 build by the developer. Sound to me like Stonecrest/Spruce Creek want a free ride without paying the bonds/amenity fees. Correct me if I'm wrong!

[njbchbum]

newcomer - anyone can pass thru a gate in the villages by pressing the red button on the visitors side of the gate. the villages is not a gated/protected community in the true sense of the word and as stonecrest and spruce creek south are.

the golf cart crossing at spruce creek south has been authorized but not yet approved as it has not yet finalized sufficient revision to meet the requirements of florida dot. so residents do not have access yet.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

In #4 of your letter, you mention the lady Lake Post office. Are you referring to the little post office behind the Circle K? My understanding is that was set up so that the residents of OBG, Country Club Hills, and Silver lake would have a place to pick up their mail. Do Stonecrest residents have PO boxes there as well? Don't they have their own PO boxes in Stonecrest or is mail delivered to them at their homes?
ARe you talking about the Lady Lake Post Office on Route 25? That is not accessible to golf carts by anyone.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Where can we see a copy of Resolution 98-106?

[Steve9930]

Where can we see a copy of Resolution 98-106?

I have a copy tell me how to upload it?

[Steve9930]

I hope this worked????

[bkcunningham1]

It worked perfectly. Thank you.

[Steve9930]

It worked perfectly. Thank you.

Your welcome and good luck tomorrow.

[graciegirl]

It worked perfectly. Thank you.

What does it mean BK? I can't read all of it. Does it mean that the gate must remain open or that the other areas are thoroughfares through people's property?

Or something else entirely? Who found it?

[njbchbum]

What does it mean BK? I can't read all of it. Does it mean that the gate must remain open or that the other areas are thoroughfares through people's property?

Or something else entirely? Who found it?

didja click on the image to enlarge?

this was orig published in the ************** - was research they did

[Steve9930]

What does it mean BK? I can't read all of it. Does it mean that the gate must remain open or that the other areas are thoroughfares through people's property?

Or something else entirely? Who found it?

Lady Lake Commissioner. It means the property is to be used for Golf Cart access. I'm not sure which Lady lake Commissioner. Now you know as much as I do.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

The attorney's to be know much more than anyone without the info or knowledge of the legal aspects. But as a paralegal with some law school, it does not restrict gate or wall access, but it does restrict it to be used in any form other than golf cart access. I would need to see what Lady Lake approved prior, but regardless, the town of lady lake, if it is legally necessary, can just go ahead and approve the wall or a gate if they want to. They are not restricted in that way, but approval, if not obtained already, should probably be approved to satisfy everyone. But in no way does it say that a wall or gate could never be installed whatsoever, if that is what Gracie wants to know. Does anyone have a copy of the first approve plans from way back in 1998 or so to look at?

[graciegirl]

How do you get a gate pass?

They have to call the person you said you are visiting to get their o.k.

I don't know about the restaurant or golf course. I think the pass may say


Restaurant.....or Golf course. You have to stick it on your dash near the window so people can see what you are up too.

[Steve9930]

The attorney's to be know much more than anyone without the info or knowledge of the legal aspects. But as a paralegal with some law school, it does not restrict gate or wall access, but it does restrict it to be used in any form other than golf cart access. I would need to see what Lady Lake approved prior, but regardless, the town of lady lake, if it is legally necessary, can just go ahead and approve the wall or a gate if they want to. They are not restricted in that way, but approval, if not obtained already, should probably be approved to satisfy everyone. But in no way does it say that a wall or gate could never be installed whatsoever, if that is what Gracie wants to know. Does anyone have a copy of the first approve plans from way back in 1998 or so to look at?

I do not have a copy but I've been told the original engineering document submitted to Lady lake show it also as a designated golf cart path. I'm sure someone will have them at the meeting. Like I said good luck.

[njbchbum]

bkcunningham1 posted this link in another thread the other day - it is chock full of documents re the history of the paradise access point. after reviewing the agenda start @ pg 48 and keep scrolling higher for additional mtg agendas in years prior...even where it was once denied!

http://www.ladylake.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Agenda-Commission-Meeting-08-19-13.pdf


copy of plans start on page 63 i think - i had to reduce to get them to fit the page.

[EdV]

bkcunningham1 posted this link in another thread the other day - it is chock full of documents re the history of the paradise access point. after reviewing the agenda start @ pg 48 and keep scrolling higher for additional mtg agendas in years prior...even where it was once denied!

http://www.ladylake.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Agenda-Commission-Meeting-08-19-13.pdf

NJ, you are correct but that denial was one that occurred a couple of years before the 1998 was accepted if I'm not mistaken.

Let me know if you concur.

Ed

[njbchbum]

NJ, you are correct but that denial was one that occurred a couple of years before the 1998 was accepted if I'm not mistaken.

Let me know if you concur.

Ed

i do agree with you. it was a good read!

[graciegirl]

So ...this is even more puzzling and difficult.

First there was anger because the gate was closed.

Now there is anger about the gate being open and allowing outsiders in.

I still think I accept the wisdom of the folks behind the curtain.

Before I exit stage right or he does, I want to shake Gary Morse's hand.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

So ...this is even more puzzling and difficult.

First there was anger because the gate was closed.

Now there is anger about the gate being open and allowing outsiders in.

I still think I accept the wisdom of the folks behind the curtain.

Before I exit stage right or he does, I want to shake Gary Morse's hand.

Gracie, I agree with you. What many people fail to realize is there are very complicated legal and business aspects, contracts and ordinances involved that most of us will never know of or even understand. Unless someone has legal training and has access to ALL of the facts and circumstances, they cannot truly understand or comment on the exact nature of the circumstances or even what is right or fair for all involved. Since they have many sides looking into it for all involved, I think we need to all trust that a fair and equitable solution according to law will be forthcoming. I just hope that a metal detector is not needed at the meeting tommorrow considering some of the very angry posts about this subject by some very upset people.

[Steve9930]

Gracie, I agree with you. What many people fail to realize is there are very complicated legal and business aspects, contracts and ordinances involved that most of us will never know of or even understand. Unless someone has legal training and has access to ALL of the facts and circumstances, they cannot truly understand or comment on the exact nature of the circumstances or even what is right or fair for all involved. Since they have many sides looking into it for all involved, I think we need to all trust that a fair and equitable solution according to law will be forthcoming. I just hope that a metal detector is not needed at the meeting tommorrow considering some of the very angry posts about this subject by some very upset people.

Your CCW does not allow you to carry into a public meeting but you may want to hurry to your car and leave the area depending on the out come of the meeting. I'm sure the Lady Lake PD will be there in force.

[Advogado]

Since I have never used the path in question, I don't have a dog in this fight and since I am up north for the summer don't have all the facts. This being said, I haven't noticed, in the posts on this subject, a mention of the possibility that residents, if they have used the path for more than 20 years (I don't know if this is the case), may have already acquired what is called a prescriptive easement. For an explanation: FE108/FE108: Handbook of Florida Fence and Property Law: Easements and Rights of Way (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fe108)

It is something that the folks who are addressing this issue may want to consider. The fear of residents' acquiring, or maybe already having acquired, such an easement may have been one of the motivating factors causing the Developer to erect the wall.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

Since I have never used the path in question, I don't have a dog in this fight and since I am up north for the summer don't have all the facts. This being said, I haven't noticed, in the posts on this subject, a mention of the possibility that residents, if they have used the path for more than 20 years (I don't know if this is the case), may have already acquired what is called a prescriptive easement. For an explanation: FE108/FE108: Handbook of Florida Fence and Property Law: Easements and Rights of Way (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fe108)

It is something that the folks who are addressing this issue may want to consider. The fear of residents' acquiring, or maybe already having acquired, such an easement may have been one of the motivating factors causing the Developer to erect the wall.

I don't believe that would apply at all since the owner would have to specifically grant a "permanent easement", not just allow temporary access, for anyone to have any continuing rights to access a person's property.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I'm no lawyer, but what I see is that resolution 98-106 is simply the town giving clearance to build a cart path on that property. This kind of document is issued when someone wants to build something on their own land. It says that the town has no use for the land. It will never be needed for a roadway nor to round utility lines or water or sewage pipes through. I don't believe that the town will have anything to say about who the owner of that property can allow or not allow to transverse his property.

Iy does stipulate that the land cannot be used to build a road to be used by automobiles.

[Advogado]

I don't believe that would apply at all since the owner would have to specifically grant a "permanent easement", not just allow temporary access, for anyone to have any continuing rights to access a person's property.

On the contrary, as is the case with acquiring title to property by adverse possession, for someone to obtain a prescriptive easement, the owner doesn't grant him anything. Instead, the owner just doesn't stop that person (who claims the right to use the easement) from using the easement for at least 20 years. But, as I indicated in my earlier post, I don't know how long people have been using the path and it may be less than 20 years. It does seem, however, that it was being used in 1998--which gets you 15 years right there.

Here is how the link that I included in my post describes a prescriptive easement:
"A prescriptive easement, similar to adverse possession, is designed to obtain rights less than full ownership to land based on long-term use or enjoyment rather than agreement or statutory methods. In order for a prescriptive easement to exist, a party must show all of the following:

Actual, continuous and uninterrupted use (not possession) for twenty years
Use, under a claim of right, in conflict with the landowner's use
Knowledge of the landowner or use so open, notorious, visible, and uninterrupted that knowledge is imputed to the landowner (Downing v. Bird, 100 So.2d 57 [Fla. 1958]; 2 Florida Jurisprudence 2d Adverse Possession section 60)"

Its like your next door neighbor's putting part of his driveway on your property. After it's there for 20 years, you are out of luck if you want him to move it.

Food for thought anyway.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

I'm no lawyer, but what I see is that resolution 98-106 is simply the town giving clearance to build a cart path on that property. This kind of document is issued when someone wants to build something on their own land. It says that the town has no use for the land. It will never be needed for a roadway nor to round utility lines or water or sewage pipes through. I don't believe that the town will have anything to say about who the owner of that property can allow or not allow to transverse his property.

I agree, Winston. After reading it, I also said there are no restrictions other than to have the golf cart path approved, which was done long ago. The lawyers to be will know better, but I don't see how they can prevent a gate or wall either as it is not restricted in the deed.

[njbchbum]

I agree, Winston. After reading it, I also said there are no restrictions other than to have the golf cart path approved, which was done long ago. The lawyers to be will know better, but I don't see how they can prevent a gate or wall either as it is not restricted in the deed.

what deed, spicycajunpugs - and where can that be found? thanx

[SpicyCajunPugs]

On the contrary, as is the case with acquiring title to property by adverse possession, for someone to obtain a prescriptive easement, the owner doesn't grant him anything. Instead, the owner just doesn't stop that person (who claims the right to use the easement) from using the easement for at least 20 years. But, as I indicated in my earlier post, I don't know how long people have been using the path and it may be less than 20 years. It does seem, however, that it was being used in 1998--which gets you 15 years right there.

Here is how the link that I included in my post describes a prescriptive easement:
"A prescriptive easement, similar to adverse possession, is designed to obtain rights less than full ownership to land based on long-term use or enjoyment rather than agreement or statutory methods. In order for a prescriptive easement to exist, a party must show all of the following:

Actual, continuous and uninterrupted use (not possession) for twenty years
Use, under a claim of right, in conflict with the landowner's use
Knowledge of the landowner or use so open, notorious, visible, and uninterrupted that knowledge is imputed to the landowner (Downing v. Bird, 100 So.2d 57 [Fla. 1958]; 2 Florida Jurisprudence 2d Adverse Possession section 60)"

Its like your next door neighbor's putting part of his driveway on your property. After it's there for 20 years, you are out of luck if you want him to move it.

Food for thought anyway.


I apologize, but I failed to state that because it hasn't been 20 years since the deed was granted, it wouldn't apply unless specific written permission were granted. I have been accused of being long winded when I write so I guess I didn't make myself clear...sorry

[SpicyCajunPugs]

what deed, spicycajunpugs - and where can that be found? thanx

Resolution 98-106 which was just attached earlier in this thread is a form of quit claim deed.

[njbchbum]

snipped
Here is how the link that I included in my post describes a prescriptive easement:
"A prescriptive easement, similar to adverse possession, is designed to obtain rights less than full ownership to land based on long-term use or enjoyment rather than agreement or statutory methods. In order for a prescriptive easement to exist, a party must show all of the following:

Actual, continuous and uninterrupted use (not possession) for twenty years
Use, under a claim of right, in conflict with the landowner's use
Knowledge of the landowner or use so open, notorious, visible, and uninterrupted that knowledge is imputed to the landowner (Downing v. Bird, 100 So.2d 57 [Fla. 1958]; 2 Florida Jurisprudence 2d Adverse Possession section 60)"
snipped


advogado - i don't believe that it has been shown that use has been continuous [not to mention used for 20 years] - there was one post indicating that the access has been closed for one day per year for all of these years - however many they are!

[njbchbum]

Resolution 98-106 which was just attached earlier in this thread is a form of quit claim deed.

oh, my, my, spicy! i always thought that a quit claim deed did nothing more than indicate that the grantor is freely and willingly transferring any and all rights they have in the real estate being transferred...and that a quit claim did not specify any kind of restriction...that it is merely giving up one's interest in said property.

in all of my days in municipal govt and city planning and vacating streets and wierd pieces of property like unbuildable triangular lots, i cannot recall one instance where there was any kind of restriction or requirement attached.

do you have an example from your days as a paralegal? thanx

[SpicyCajunPugs]

oh, my, my, spicy! i always thogtht that a quit claim deed did nothing more than indicate that the grantor is freely and willingly transferring any and all rights they have in the real estate being transferred...and that a quit claim did not specify any kind of restriction...that it is merely giving up one's interest in said property.

in all of my days in municipal govt and city planning and vacating streets and wierd pieces of property like unbuildable triangular lots, i cannot recall one instance where there was any kind of restriction or requirement attached.

do you have an example from your days as a paralegal? thanx

Did you look at the copy of the resolution? And maybe you misunderstood my posts. I did not say there were any restrictions...just the opposite. Please read the resolution where it says the county quit claims all rights to the property, just like I said. Winston and I have said in this thread that it does not appear that the owner has any restrictions on putting a wall, fence, etc., but the powers to be (mainly the attorney's) have control.

[njbchbum]

Did you look at the copy of the resolution? And maybe you misunderstood my posts. I did not say there were any restrictions...just the opposite. Please read the resolution where it says the county quit claims all rights to the property, just like I said. Winston and I have said in this thread that it does not appear that the owner has any restrictions on putting a wall, fence, etc., but the powers to be (mainly the attorney's) have control.

ok - i'm with ya up to that point - the town has vacated its interest in the land - i was reading that you might have expected a restriction re use to be in the quit claim! maybe it is just getting too late for me! ;)

[Irishmen]

So ...this is even more puzzling and difficult.

First there was anger because the gate was closed.

Now there is anger about the gate being open and allowing outsiders in.

I still think I accept the wisdom of the folks behind the curtain.

Before I exit stage right or he does, I want to shake Gary Morse's hand.


Good laugh this am. So true.

[nitakk]

Villagers beware - maurading bands of Stonecrest seniors are invading our land in their golf carts, plundering and pillaging our amenities armed with dogs full of poop! Heavens to Betsy, what will we do??? We tried a wall, that didn't work so let's go get us some barbed wire and armed security - yeah, that's the ticket!

Sad part is, some people who have posted won't recognize that as sarcastic. I think some have figured this out and it has nothing to do with Stonecrest but everything to do with Harbor Chase and golf cart access for them. That new facility is the ony thing different along the way and if what is being spoon-fed is true (liability and security issues), why didn't they "protect" us a lot sooner? Stonecrest has had this access for as long as I have been here (10 years) and I can only assume it was well before that.

Has anyone else noticed that a golf cart only lane is being installed at Belvedere and there is a new assisted living facility being built by the developer a block away? It's all about money, people - it always is. Fruitland Park, are you paying attention?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

So ...this is even more puzzling and difficult.

First there was anger because the gate was closed.

Now there is anger about the gate being open and allowing outsiders in.

I still think I accept the wisdom of the folks behind the curtain.

Before I exit stage right or he does, I want to shake Gary Morse's hand.

I for one am not angry about outsiders coming in. I don't think that a few golf carts from Stonecrest are going to impact the Villages.

I don't really care one way or another. I'm simply trying to understand the issue here. I'm not real happy about the government, any government, telling people what they can do with their private property beyond protecting the general public.

I have a personal reason for the gate to be open to myself and my fellow Villages residents. But other than that I don't much one way or the other.

Having said that, I think that it has become apparent that someone doesn't want outsiders coming in through that gate in their golf carts. I have posted some ideas that I have regarding what the reasons for that might be. They are only speculation and I hope that I have made that clear. I don't think that anyone knows exactly what the motivation behind this whole thing is and I don't know if we'll ever know.

From what I can understand, it seems to me that this lot at 1957 Paradise Drive is privately owned. I don't understand the whole deeding it to the VCDD deal so that they can install a one way gate but I'm wondering if property owned by the VCCD is still considered private property.

Anyroad, please note that I am very happy that it is open, I was very sad when it was closed and I will be happy if it stays open to Villages residents. I have no problem if it is also open to Stomecrest residents.

[OldManTime]

Put all the half truths, and misleading information to bed, at the Town of Lady Lake Commission meeting at 6 pm tonight

[graciegirl]

Villagers beware - maurading bands of Stonecrest seniors are invading our land in their golf carts, plundering and pillaging our amenities armed with dogs full of poop! Heavens to Betsy, what will we do??? We tried a wall, that didn't work so let's go get us some barbed wire and armed security - yeah, that's the ticket!

Sad part is, some people who have posted won't recognize that as sarcastic. I think some have figured this out and it has nothing to do with Stonecrest but everything to do with Harbor Chase and golf cart access for them. That new facility is the ony thing different along the way and if what is being spoon-fed is true (liability and security issues), why didn't they "protect" us a lot sooner? Stonecrest has had this access for as long as I have been here (10 years) and I can only assume it was well before that.

Has anyone else noticed that a golf cart only lane is being installed at Belvedere and there is a new assisted living facility being built by the developer a block away? It's all about money, people - it always is. Fruitland Park, are you paying attention?

Um...for profit business is a good thing.

Making money is not sinful. It is economics one oh one.

Big business employes people who pay taxes who fund all the stuff that people who don't like big business use.

[cabo35]

I did have some trouble with the 8 point agenda driven manifesto that started this thread. I found the points we are supposed to rally behind shallow and contrived, but, that's just me. Oops.....did I just put my thoughts on the 8 point topic in a "gigantic paragraph"?

[HalfWayIn]

Can Lady Lake claim eminent domain and keep the public access golf cart gate open forever?

[Advogado]

Interesting article on the role of these two Developer-front organizations in this controversy: "Proposed" Solution to The Wall (http://www.thevillagesfloridabook.com/proposed-solution-to-the-wall/)

[ttown]

OK.
Live near the wall...use the gate.
No problem with the few...if any...Stone Crest people using the gate.
The wall went up because of Harbor Chase advertising.
The powers that be didn't expect the huge reaction and the power of the social media.
I do not begrudge the fact that the developer makes a ton of money...only that he belittled us.
The wall came down because of us, the POA, and especially Lady Lake saying " wait just a darn minute ".
Lets move on to bigger problems a leave us our little hole in the wall.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Interesting article on the role of these two Developer-front organizations in this controversy: "Proposed" Solution to The Wall (http://www.thevillagesfloridabook.com/proposed-solution-to-the-wall/)

Did you listen to this guy's video? What he is, basically is an agent representing all of the non-Villages agents selling in the Villages. The first thing that he does is explain all the disadvantages of buying new while "gently" persuading you to buy resale property. Then he explains how 35%-40% of the resales are not handled by the Villages agents.
He does give us a disclaimer in the end, explaining that he is a licensed agent but no longer actively sells. what he does is refers people to other agents and will get a referral fee if you buy from that agent.
I have no problem with anyone making money through any type of legitimate business and this guy does explain exactly what he does in the very end of his video presentation. But, the rest of his website and book make it look like he is simply trying to help us all out by giving us all the options available.
He appears, to me, to be very anti developer and, of course, is simply out to make a buck. Again, nothing wrong with that, but I find his method to be a bit deceptive at the very least.
For those of us who have lived here even for a little while, we sort of understand what's going on. But people who have never been here will see this as an objective book on life in Villages. It is anything but objective.

[EdV]

....EdV, I think you're very aware that a ruling in your favor could not be upheld for Stonecresters only....

And I think you are well aware of the fact that when you purchased your home in a Community Development District, that it is not a private gated community. As such, all of the roadways and multi-modal cart paths are open to the public.

[dcleslie]

EdV, why did you change your opinion about the path being blocked?

Your response from a previous thread about the closure: "But regarding access by Stonecrest residents, let me give you my thoughts. Stonecrest has around 2000 homes, but unlike TV where there are roughly 40,000 golf carts, Stonecrest has at most 500 carts. And of those, not many of them would be using that dusty cart path and the narrow golf cart bridge to Spanish Springs very often. The importance of Stonecrest in the golf cart path into TV has been grossly exaggerated.

"Clearly there is something else afoot and time will tell as we sort it out. But I haven�t seen this much excitement on TOTV in quite a while.

"Buckle Up as Bettie Davis once said."


There are more than 500 golf carts in Stonecrest. Some people are disabled and cannot drive a car. Their doctor offices, physical therapists, testing done at Sharon Morse Building, going into the Hospital. People shop at local businesses via the golf cart path. Driving cars into the Villages will certainly cause congestion and lack of parking. Ignorance is Bliss!

[dcleslie]

So its a gate community and you have to get a PASS to access your community. "Access to the Restaurant and Golf are open to the public." So The Villages is a gated communtiy and your need a Village residents pass to access through the gate. The problem sounds to me that the residents of Stonecrest/Spruce Creek have more to lose than The Villagers. You have access across 441/27 at a certain location that we don't have. We have the golf cart bridge over 441/27 build by the developer. Sound to me like Stonecrest/Spruce Creek want a free ride without paying the bonds/amenity fees. Correct me if I'm wrong!

You as a Villager has access to Aldi, Walmart, Cracker Barrel, etc. on the golf cart. You can go even further across the front of Stonecrest to Allstate Insurance, Curves, Napa Auto, etc. The streets in Stonecrest are private. They are not maintained by the county. That is the difference. Unfortunately, many doctor offices and testing labs are located within the Villages and that is what the residents of Stonecrest want to access, plus the public stores that are located on public streets in the Villages. We don't want to use amenities. We want to access public establishments. Thank you.

[Peachie]

And I think you are well aware of the fact that when you purchased your home in a Community Development District, that it is not a private gated community. As such, all of the roadways and multi-modal cart paths are open to the public.

Unfortunately, that realization came to you after you purchased your home in TV. And that statement is supported by the fact that the majority of TV residents do not attend the CDD orientation class until after they purchase their home.

But like the majority of TV residents, your solution now to this little quandary is Deny, Deny, Deny.

This is my solution? You have twisted the fact, EdV, that even though YOU believe our cart paths are public, the fact is non-Villagers do not have access to these blacktopped golf cart paths unless they cross the private property of The Villages or come in on their street legals. Can you verify with certainty that the Morse's went after tax-free bonds to pour that small area of concrete cart path between the houses by Paradise Dr.?

If Stonecresters are able to open up golf cart access to The Villages on this golf cart path, a precedent is set. Golf cart access would have to be permitted to all adjacent residential areas. The Villages was not built with this intent. That precedent would create an impact to The Villages which would be far reaching... more crowded paths, a loss in safety and less security that we now enjoy, more trash and vandalism, (you can't discriminate against children driving carts) and upkeep.

If the Morse's are unable to stem the general public from accessing The Villages at any point on a golf cart, they may as well forget about developing anymore land. Who would buy in The Villages when they could buy in a cheaper place like Stonecrest, sneak in and use The Villages maintained properties and not pay the piper? How about a $5. entry charge each time a non-Villages cart wants to use our cart paths and that would fulfill my earlier statement, "if you want to play with us, you pay with us".

Perhaps some Stonecresters should look at moving into The Villages so they could use their golf carts for EVERYTHING and not have difficulties getting to needed facilities from their limited community.

So, EdV, I would be careful what you wish for, if you create a way to trash The Villages lifestyle, you have to live next to it in Stonecrest.

[EdV]

This is my solution? You have twisted the fact, EdV, that even though YOU believe our cart paths are public, the fact is non-Villagers do not have access to these blacktopped golf cart paths unless they cross the private property of The Villages or come in on their street legals. .....

But you think it's perfectly ok for Villagers to drive their carts across the electric company's property to get to Walmart even though they have made it clear that they don't want them to and that they are trespassing. Of course, you've never done that, right?

[EdV]

You want facts, here you go. The Villages district government site (http://www.districtgov.org/yourdistrict/index.aspx)defines a CDD as follows

Community Development Districts (CDD�s) are widely used throughout the United States to provide for certain service delivery infrastructure such as water management and control (drainage), fire control, road and bridge construction and maintenance, park and recreational facilities, mosquito control, port and inlet districts, water and sewer systems, sidewalks, streetlights similar infrastructure that is required to provide urban services�.

A Community Development District is a public non-profit unit of local government with the special purpose of providing the services described above. As a unit of local government, the District is subject to many of the same State Statutes that regulate cities and counties..

The multi-modal paths in TV were built along with the roads as part of the infrastructure that was paid for with federal tax free municipal bonds. Those multi-modal paths are for transportation, not recreation. You cannot use federal tax free municipal bonds to build private roadways whether they are for cars, trucks, golf carts or tricycles.

The argument that Villagers make to justify their belief that the multi-modal cart paths are private is that they are being maintained with amenity funds. Yet thousands of cities and towns across this nation have streets that are maintained with local taxes. Can you sit there with a straight face and say that those cities should then be allowed to prevent you from using those streets? Of course not. If that were allowed, the entire transportation system of this country would fall apart.

[red tail]

But you think it's perfectly ok for Villagers to drive their carts across the electric company's property to get to Walmart even though they have made it clear that they don't want them to and that they are trespassing. Of course, you've never done that, right?

ive driven thru there and I can tell you there is trash everywhere!

nuff said!

[justjim]

And I think you are well aware of the fact that when you purchased your home in a Community Development District, that it is not a private gated community. As such, all of the roadways and multi-modal cart paths are open to the public.

I understand the roads are open to the public. The multi-modal cart paths are maintained by our fees----but anybody can use them. Am I missing something here? :gc:

[Peachie]

But you think it's perfectly ok for Villagers to drive their carts across the electric company's property to get to Walmart even though they have made it clear that they don't want them to and that they are trespassing. Of course, you've never done that, right?

Ed, this is from an earlier post of mine on "The golf cart path" thread. Perhaps you missed it:

"And to the people in the historic section, should one of the property owner block access to land which that path crosses to give you cart accessibility to the shopping complexes on 27/441 after the gate is installed, SO BE IT! It is private property, get over the entitlement mentality which many of you harbor even though you knew this could happen when you designed your life around the illegal path."

Peace, Ed, I'll await the actions that take place tonight at 6:00 PM. It's not that I want to block Stonecresters out, it's that I want to maintain the integrity of The Villages itself.

[justjim]

You want facts, here you go. The Villages district government site (http://www.districtgov.org/yourdistrict/index.aspx)defines a CDD as follows

Community Development Districts (CDD�s) are widely used throughout the United States to provide for certain service delivery infrastructure such as water management and control (drainage), fire control, road and bridge construction and maintenance, park and recreational facilities, mosquito control, port and inlet districts, water and sewer systems, sidewalks, streetlights similar infrastructure that is required to provide urban services�.

A Community Development District is a public non-profit unit of local government with the special purpose of providing the services described above. As a unit of local government, the District is subject to many of the same State Statutes that regulate cities and counties..

The multi-modal paths in TV were built along with the roads as part of the infrastructure that was paid for with federal tax free municipal bonds. Those multi-modal paths are for transportation, not recreation. You cannot use federal tax free municipal bonds to build private roadways whether they are for cars, trucks, golf carts or tricycles.

The argument that Villagers make to justify their belief that the multi-modal cart paths are private is that they are being maintained with amenity funds. Yet thousands of cities and towns across this nation have streets that are maintained with local taxes. Can you sit there with a straight face and say that those cities should then be allowed to prevent you from using those streets? Of course not. If that were allowed, the entire transportation system of this country would fall apart.

With all due respect, I don't think you can legally call a golf cart transportation unless it is Street Legal ----and you are a legal licensed driver. With that said, I still don't care if a few golf carts from Stonecrest or Spruce Creek use the trails. But apparently the Developer and his lawyers do.

[red tail]

With all due respect, I don't think you can legally call a golf cart transportation unless it is Street Legal ----and you are a legal licensed driver. With that said, I still don't care if a few golf carts from Stonecrest or Spruce Creek use the trails. But apparently the Developer and his lawyers do.

well I care because right now our trails are pristine. take a look at the trails between stonecrest/walmart, and the "GATE". they are trashy and im afraid the same will happen on our trails.

[EdV]

With all due respect, I don't think you can legally call a golf cart transportation unless it is Street Legal ----and you are a legal licensed driver. With that said, I still don't care if a few golf carts from Stonecrest or Spruce Creek use the trails. But apparently the Developer and his lawyers do.

Be sure to point that out to the Cop when tries to give you a ticket for a stop sign violation in your standard golf cart.

[EdV]

In response to any prior comments as to the cart path lot being private property so the owner can do whatever he wants, the opening statement of Resolution 98-106 reads:

WHEREAS, Leesburg Regional Medical Center, Inc., petitioner, for the purpose of providing a thoroughfare for golf carts, has presented to the Town Commission of the Town of Lady Lake, a petition to close and vacate said property, described as follows: [lot 3422 unit 13 etc.]

Clearly the petition was made to ensure that after constructing the cart path that they would not find out later that the town had future plans to construct a pump station or other such town utility on that lot.

Notice that the petition says “golf carts” not “Villager resident golf carts”. In fact, nowhere in the entire petition is the word “Villager” or “Villages” mentioned. Furthermore, since the approved engineering plans did not show any type of controlled access gate, it clearly supports the argument that this thoroughfare for golf carts was not intended to be restricted in any way.

It further states that a notice of intent was published in the Orlando Sentinel giving the public and the property owner an opportunity to object to the plan.

So it is my contention that in 1998, pursuant to the Town’s approval and the completion of the approved project plan, a permanent and public right of way for golf carts through that lot was established and remains in effect today and the current or future owner cannot change that.

[spk7951]

I don't think that a few golf carts from Stonecrest are going to impact the Villages.


I would agree with that statement but my opinion is that this issue with this particular path goes much deeper than the folks at Stonecrest. If access is allowed to one group then that fact gives argument to others seeking same access to TV somewhere else.
First it was Stonecrest, very shortly it will be Spruce Creek South followed by Harbor Chase. Wildwood tried to get golf cart paths built along 466A back in 2011 and Sumter County shot them down. Now Fruitland Park wants access as part of approval for the developer to buy land for further development. Not to be forgotten is the small office park at Rolling Acres and 466 who tried to get golf cart access a couple of years back but were also shot down.
My points here are once things open up then it is hard to stop the tide. The upkeep and, here is the key word again, liability are owned by Villagers.

[graciegirl]

Hindsight is the best.

I think that when that wall went up, we shoulda let well enough alone and worked out the problems and inconveniences the best we could as we all have been doing for a good long time.

Now we are out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I still say that the Morses aren't transparent, but they are smart as heck.

[janmcn]

Hindsight is the best.

I think that when that wall went up, we shoulda let well enough alone and worked out the problems and inconveniences the best we could as we all have been doing for a good long time.

Now we are out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I still say that the Morses aren't transparent, but they are smart as heck.


That's easy to say if you own a car or have access to a car or are able to drive a car.

Hopefully all the Morse supporters will attend the meeting to show their support for the developer. The press will be there in full force.

[DAVIDPHS55]

What time is the meeting?
We basically use the golf cart access to go to doctors, lake imaging,the va facility,publix, winn dixie, the farmers market at spanish springs, retail stores, and various restaurants. We do not go into the villages just to drive around on the golf cart paths. If we were to use our car it would just put more traffic on the roads throughout the villages.

[Mikeod]

Couple of questions regarding private vs. public.

If a municipality uses federal tax-free bonds to construct something, how does that make it public? Let's say Lady Lake issues bonds to build a pool. Can they not prohibit non-residents from using it? Or say they build a nature trail. Can't they restrict access? I don't see that using federal tax exempt bonds automatically forces an entity to open access to everyone.

Also, a distinction needs to be made regarding cart paths. Those that are completely separate from roadways are maintained with amenity funds. If they are public, why are they not maintained by the tax dollars we pay in addition to our amenity fee? I don't recall a credit on my tax bill for that portion of the amenity fee that goes toward maintenance of those paths. Now, the paths/diamond lanes that are on the surface streets are maintained by the county and funded by tax dollars (property and/or gas taxes). That also applies to roads within the community that have no designated cart lane, but are used by carts as well as autos.

Frankly, I agree with others who believe that this whole situation is not the result of safety/liability concerns with outside carts entering TV. Rather it is a developer who has tired of outside businesses advertising cart access to TV which undermines his ability to sell/lease land for similar enterprises within TV. I don't know what Freedom Pointe or the facility on 466A paid for their property to get cart access within TV, but I think it is safe to assume it was more than the new one on 441 paid.

I truly hope the result of all this is the path remains open and access is unaltered from before the wall. I fear that if access to TV is restricted, it won't be long before Harbor Chase decides maintaining the path is not worth it without access to TV.

[Steve9930]

Be sure to point that out to the Cop when tries to give you a ticket for a stop sign violation in your standard golf cart.

He can and not only that but he can give you a DUI.

[mrdarcy]

I think Peachie has identified the reason why the wall was erected in the first place. Whenever something abrupt and dramatic happens to change the status quo, in addition to asking "Why?", one should also ask "Why now?"

After being used as a thoroughfare for 15+ years, the wall was erected on the weekend 2 days before Villages representatives appeared before Fruitland Park officials to discuss expansion south of 466A into Fruitland Park's jurisdiction. Fruitland Park officials want agreement for Fruitland Park residents to use Villages multi-modal paths to access merchants at Colony Plaza as one condition in the negotiations.

Fruitland Park officials could have pointed to precedent of the longstanding "breech" in the northern Villages perimeter on Paradise Drive, that is until the "breech" was sealed right before the meeting with Fruitland Park.

I think impending negotiations with Fruitland Park prompted erection of the wall on Paradise Drive. Harbor Chase and the new assisted living facility would not explain the "Why now?". The Fruitland Park negotiations certainly would. They would also explain why the Developer was not really paying attention to the impact on the historic section, if his focus is concentrated on new expansion. If one's head is in the realms of multi-million dollar expansion deals, one is not thinking about interruption in Villagers' day to day lives. Indeed, not paying attention to such impact is thoughtless, but in the scenario I described above, it it understandable.

What I really hope happened is Mr. Morse was reminded by those who knew his father, that his father would never have overlooked the impact of his actions on his neighbors. Though we don't know what caused him to dismantle the wall, perhaps Mr. Morse could be afforded some measure of forgiveness, if reminder of his father's generosity and good character, instead a legal technicality, prompted him to remove the wall so quickly after he installed it.

We Villagers could take the high road on this one, as the view is better from the high road. The Developer can most definitely be thoughtless, and even heartless, as he's demonstrated on a number of occasions. But he can also be incredibly thoughtful as he's demonstrated by planning and implementing the most phenomenal retirement community in the country. Good and bad can exist in the same person. We are all examples of that.

[Steve9930]

Couple of questions regarding private vs. public.

If a municipality uses federal tax-free bonds to construct something, how does that make it public? Let's say Lady Lake issues bonds to build a pool. Can they not prohibit non-residents from using it? Or say they build a nature trail. Can't they restrict access? I don't see that using federal tax exempt bonds automatically forces an entity to open access to everyone.

Also, a distinction needs to be made regarding cart paths. Those that are completely separate from roadways are maintained with amenity funds. If they are public, why are they not maintained by the tax dollars we pay in addition to our amenity fee? I don't recall a credit on my tax bill for that portion of the amenity fee that goes toward maintenance of those paths. Now, the paths/diamond lanes that are on the surface streets are maintained by the county and funded by tax dollars (property and/or gas taxes). That also applies to roads within the community that have no designated cart lane, but are used by carts as well as autos.

Frankly, I agree with others who believe that this whole situation is not the result of safety/liability concerns with outside carts entering TV. Rather it is a developer who has tired of outside businesses advertising cart access to TV which undermines his ability to sell/lease land for similar enterprises within TV. I don't know what Freedom Pointe or the facility on 466A paid for their property to get cart access within TV, but I think it is safe to assume it was more than the new one on 441 paid.

I truly hope the result of all this is the path remains open and access is unaltered from before the wall. I fear that if access to TV is restricted, it won't be long before Harbor Chase decides maintaining the path is not worth it without access to TV.

Here's your answer to paragraph one: The fact that they can issue Tax Free Bonds. You must be a municipality to issue such bonds or a Public School District, or a County. The Villages is considered a Special Municipality under Florida Law. They are bound by many of the same regulations as any other city. The IRS in their last ruling to the Villages indicated they believe that the Villages because of the way some things were manipulated violated the rules which define the Villages as a political Municipality, therefore they had no authority to issue Tax Free Bonds. Sorry I got a bit off topic. Have a nice day.

[sailor47]

Couple of questions regarding private vs. public.


Frankly, I agree with others who believe that this whole situation is not the result of safety/liability concerns with outside carts entering TV. Rather it is a developer who has tired of outside businesses advertising cart access to TV which undermines his ability to sell/lease land for similar enterprises within TV. I don't know what Freedom Pointe or the facility on 466A paid for their property to get cart access within TV, but I think it is safe to assume it was more than the new one on 441 paid.

I truly hope the result of all this is the path remains open and access is unaltered from before the wall. I fear that if access to TV is restricted, it won't be long before Harbor Chase decides maintaining the path is not worth it without access to TV.

Me too. I don't get all the negativity toward the Morse Family. They have spent at least two generations building an almost perfect retirement community,IMO. It's the American Way. Do something exceptional and you will be rewarded.

[Steve9930]

I think Peachie has identified the reason why the wall was erected in the first place. Whenever something abrupt and dramatic happens to change the status quo, in addition to asking "Why?", one should also ask "Why now?"

After being used as a thoroughfare for 15+ years, the wall was erected on the weekend 2 days before Villages representatives appeared before Fruitland Park officials to discuss expansion south of 466A into Fruitland Park's jurisdiction. Fruitland Park officials want agreement for Fruitland Park residents to use Villages multi-modal paths to access merchants at Colony Plaza as one condition in the negotiations.

Fruitland Park officials could have pointed to precedent of the longstanding "breech" in the northern Villages perimeter on Paradise Drive, that is until the "breech" was sealed right before the meeting with Fruitland Park.

I think impending negotiations with Fruitland Park prompted erection of the wall on Paradise Drive. Harbor Chase and the new assisted living facility would not explain the "Why now?". The Fruitland Park negotiations certainly would. They would also explain why the Developer was not really paying attention to the impact on the historic section, if his focus is concentrated on new expansion. If one's head is in the realms of multi-million dollar expansion deals, one is not thinking about interruption in Villagers' day to day lives. Indeed, not paying attention to such impact is thoughtless, but in the scenario I described above, it it understandable.

What I really hope happened is Mr. Morse was reminded by those who knew his father, that his father would never have overlooked the impact of his actions on his neighbors. Though we don't know what caused him to dismantle the wall, perhaps Mr. Morse could be afforded some measure of forgiveness, if reminder of his father's generosity and good character, instead a legal technicality, prompted him to remove the wall so quickly after he installed it.

We Villagers could take the high road on this one, as the view is better from the high road. The Developer can most definitely be thoughtless, and even heartless, as he's demonstrated on a number of occasions. But he can also be incredibly thoughtful as he's demonstrated by planning and implementing the most phenomenal retirement community in the country. Good and bad can exist in the same person. We are all examples of that.

Way to connect the dots. Also Fruitland Park already has regulations and some sort of sticker program for using Golf Carts on Public Streets as I understand. Fruitland Park I hope will stand their ground.

[skip0358]

I truly believe that the WALL had nothing to do with Stonecrest & everything to do with the new Harbor Chase facility being built.

I agree with you. I to believe it was Harbor Chase also and the fact that it wasn't a Village owned property. Period

[Peachie]

Way to connect the dots. Also Fruitland Park already has regulations and some sort of sticker program for using Golf Carts on Public Streets as I understand. Fruitland Park I hope will stand their ground.


Steve, has anyone done the research regarding Stonecrest? Were any tax-free bonds or public financing provided for the building of Stonecrest and it's infrastructure or was it developed completely with private money. (Deep pockets may have provided this but I'm curious.)

[Mikeod]

Here's your answer to paragraph one: The fact that they can issue Tax Free Bonds. You must be a municipality to issue such bonds or a Public School District, or a County. The Villages is considered a Special Municipality under Florida Law. They are bound by many of the same regulations as any other city. The IRS in their last ruling to the Villages indicated they believe that the Villages because of the way some things were manipulated violated the rules which define the Villages as a political Municipality, therefore they had no authority to issue Tax Free Bonds. Sorry I got a bit off topic. Have a nice day.

Doesn't answer my question. I read posts asserting that, because the infrastructure was financed using tax exempt bonds, TV has no right to restrict access to those paths that are maintained by amenity fees. I don't believe that this is correct, thus the examples above. Your response appears to say that any municipality financing anything using those bonds gives up the ability to place any restrictions on its use. If this is so, I should have unfettered access to any municipal facility anywhere as long as it was financed with tax exempt bonds. Really?

Sorry for taking this off topic. Belongs in a different or new thread.

[spk7951]

It has been a few years since we attended the golf cart safety clinic but I seem to recall that the Sumter County Sheriffs office stated that they can not issue speeding tickets on Villages golf cart paths because they are considered private property?

[Steve9930]

Steve, has anyone done the research regarding Stonecrest? Were any tax-free bonds or public financing provided for the building of Stonecrest and it's infrastructure or was it developed completely with private money. (Deep pockets may have provided this but I'm curious.)

No public monies where used to develop Stoncrest. The first developer went belly up and a group of investors from I believe NY invested in the development. All the money used were private funds. No bonds were issued. We are responsible for all maintenance on the roads and infrastructure. The Water treatment use to belong to the developer but was sold to Marion County. It kind of is a kick in the backside because my property taxes do not reflect the fact that Stonecrest receives no public money for the roads or sewers. I pay the same as any other resident of Marion County but I chose to live there. So far I've been very happy.

[skip0358]

Way to connect the dots. Also Fruitland Park already has regulations and some sort of sticker program for using Golf Carts on Public Streets as I understand. Fruitland Park I hope will stand their ground.

How could FP residents access TV golf cart trails. They're not allowed to use their carts until you get up to the small shopping center past the horse farm?

[graciegirl]

That's easy to say if you own a car or have access to a car or are able to drive a car.

Hopefully all the Morse supporters will attend the meeting to show their support for the developer. The press will be there in full force.

I am sure that the usual person with the notebook will be there glaring.

I wonder so often why the animosity.

NONE of us have met the Morses. I am pretty sure of that. Wouldn't it just be amazing if an old rich man was also a nice old man?

Meanwhile I am glad that our home is not our depended on investment, because we are all bent on devaluing our properties, on the internet, the television and in public meetings.

Plus I don't feel as warm toward Stonecrest as I used to.

I think we have accomplished nothing and have gone backwards.

[truered58]

This is for anyone concerned about TV cart paths, there swimming pools etc. I live at stonecrest and we as a whole do not use you pools. We have 3 outdoor pools and an indoor pool. If you found someone using your pool that is illegal because they have to have ID. End of subject. Also we have lighted pickle ball courts and boccie courts that people from the TV use at night. Do I care no does anyone else care no!! This is so stupid to fight and argue over this cart opening. We at Stonecrest are allowed to access your villages and use public stores, public restaurants, dry cleaners and your country clubs and championship golf courses at full price. So where do you all get off saying things are private? Let's come together and stop the bickering like a bunch of children. Mr morse has caused all of this to happen because WHY?? we don't know or probably will never know the real truth. Hope everyone has a blessed day!!!!

[EdV]

Couple of questions regarding private vs. public.

If a municipality uses federal tax-free bonds to construct something, how does that make it public? Let's say Lady Lake issues bonds to build a pool. Can they not prohibit non-residents from using it? Or say they build a nature trail. Can't they restrict access? I don't see that using federal tax exempt bonds automatically forces an entity to open access to everyone.

Also, a distinction needs to be made regarding cart paths. Those that are completely separate from roadways are maintained with amenity funds. If they are public, why are they not maintained by the tax dollars we pay in addition to our amenity fee? I don't recall a credit on my tax bill for that portion of the amenity fee that goes toward maintenance of those paths. Now, the paths/diamond lanes that are on the surface streets are maintained by the county and funded by tax dollars (property and/or gas taxes). That also applies to roads within the community that have no designated cart lane, but are used by carts as well as autos.....

If a municipality wants to issue a bond to build a town only pool or recreation center, they will usually issue a taxable municipal bond. There are some exceptions to this called “Tax Exempt Private Activity Bonds” but those are allowed for only a select list of facilities. Private recreational golf cart paths would not be one of those. See this IRS document for the details (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4078.pdf).

But the more important issue is that the roads throughout a CDD are supposed to be public, and because the roads in the villages CDDs allow golf cart usage, and are maintained by the county, you cannot have the county forcing these carts onto a private cart path in order to proceed.

Your questions about why the multi-modal paths weren’t being maintained by the individual districts maintenance taxes is an interesting one. Prior to the big 50 million dollar class action settlement quite a few years ago, it was the VCCDD’s position that those paths should in fact be maintained by the numbered districts and not the VCCDD or SLCDD. And at that time, the paths above 466 were deteriorating and too narrow so an upgrade was going to be expensive. Naturally, some of the individual districts squawked about that. The loudest squawkers were of course those districts that had the largest number of paths. So yup, at one point back then even Village residents were bickering with each other over the multi-modal paths.

In the end, the settlement infused some $30 million into the VCCDD and they now maintain the paths on the north side.

[Steve9930]

Doesn't answer my question. I read posts asserting that, because the infrastructure was financed using tax exempt bonds, TV has no right to restrict access to those paths that are maintained by amenity fees. I don't believe that this is correct, thus the examples above. Your response appears to say that any municipality financing anything using those bonds gives up the ability to place any restrictions on its use. If this is so, I should have unfettered access to any municipal facility anywhere as long as it was financed with tax exempt bonds. Really?

Sorry for taking this off topic. Belongs in a different or new thread.

A municipality does have control of their facilities but they don not have authority to discriminate its usage to residents only. The Villages would be allowed to require a Trail Sticker be purchased and Golf carts inspected before being allowed on the trail. But would not be allowed to discriminate based on your residency. Does that help? Issuing Tax Free Bonds are restricted to Municipalities. You get your funding but you also get a whole set of rules you need to follow. You can regulate but not discriminate is the simplest answer.

[Peachie]

This is for anyone concerned about TV cart paths, there swimming pools etc. I live at stonecrest and we as a whole do not use you pools. We have 3 outdoor pools and an indoor pool. If you found someone using your pool that is illegal because they have to have ID. End of subject. Also we have lighted pickle ball courts and boccie courts that people from the TV use at night. Do I care no does anyone else care no!! This is so stupid to fight and argue over this cart opening. We at Stonecrest are allowed to access your villages and use public stores, public restaurants, dry cleaners and your country clubs and championship golf courses at full price. So where do you all get off saying things are private? Let's come together and stop the bickering like a bunch of children. Mr morse has caused all of this to happen because WHY?? we don't know or probably will never know the real truth. Hope everyone has a blessed day!!!!

If there is anything I have learned on these threads, it's that Stonecrest insists that non-Stonecresters can use anything of theirs that we want. I hope you're sharing your message with Spruce Creek, the new assisted living and developments to your north. I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

[TVMayor]

That's easy to say if you own a car or have access to a car or are able to drive a car.

Hopefully all the Morse supporters will attend the meeting to show their support for the developer. The press will be there in full force.
If we were talking about turtles or birds the government would relocate them, may be the wall should stay closed and the people relocated.

[HalfWayIn]

I wonder if Lady Lake will use eminent domain, take the lot, and make the path open to the public forever? That would be a perfect solution.

[Peachie]

I wonder if Lady Lake will use eminent domain, take the lot, and make the path open to the public forever? That would be a perfect solution.

For all residents North of the Villages in that area...

[Steve9930]

I wonder if Lady Lake will use eminent domain, take the lot, and make the path open to the public forever? That would be a perfect solution.

Pretty much would put an end to all the arguments. I hope someone will post the meeting notes this evening. A factual post please.

[HalfWayIn]

For all residents North of the Villages in that area.

No, for all the public who are entitled to go in and out of the villages, at will, by law.

It's ok if they have to press a button to keep the false perception of TV being private. It's already legal for people to come and go as they please in the villages.

Let's not segregate, everyone is entitled to go to the villages, not just those that live there.

[Peachie]

Let's not segregate, everyone is entitled to go to the villages, not just those that live there.

And there fellow Villagers, is in a nutshell, the problem with that hole in the wall.

HalfWayIn, you are permitted to come into The Villages by motor vehicle or street legal cart. It is not the Morse's intent to provide their private development to those of you who choose not to live here.

Are they unable to block access now, I don't know but if not, it would be very advantageous for Villagers to rent their houses out for Vacationland and move out of The Villages. Stonecrest could be advertised as an additional freebie for the renters.

We'll see how it all plays out.

[cabo35]

Very interesting read.

"The districts own and maintain the paths", not the municipality or the county.

"the county sheriff does not have jurisdiction to exercise its law enforcement power over the districts� paths."

If the county sheriff has no jurisdiction over the paths but does on the roadway, it would seem to suggest a clearcut dichotomy between paths and roads and not the integration purported by some.

The Stonecrest "8 point manifesto" advocating to the contrary would seem to project a revisionist opinion.

No one knows how this will all wash out after the legal gymnastics, but it would appear there exists a clear separation between roadways maintained by tax dollars and cart paths maintained by district fees paid by Villagers. Exceptions on paths actually in roadways is self evident.

This explains why with rare exception, DWI comes to mind, law enforcement cannot enforce most traffic laws on cart paths. For certain they can enforce where the cart path commingles with the roadway.

LINK BELOW

The Villages Voice (http://thevha.net/the-villages-voice?op=3&issue=21&article=436)
Villages Fact Finder

Villages Fact Finder

The Villages Community Development Districts were developed as a mixed-use retirement community that were required to provide non-automotive, non-vehicular, multi-modal paths interconnecting the districts for bicycles, pedestrians, skaters and golf carts. These interconnecting multi-modal paths are intended as alternative transportation routes for pedestrians and golfers to access The Villages� numerous golf courses and amenities, as well as, be used by cyclers, skaters, and golf carts.

Forms of Transportation Allowed on the Paths

The directives clearly provide for path use pedestrians, skaters, bicycles and golf carts. Other modes which are not explicitly addressed in the development orders (D.O.�s) of the Districts are subject to some interpretation.

Segways � not a vehicle (in the State of Florida for use on a highway) and are treated like bicycles � yes for use on path.

Mopeds and motorcycles � are vehicles (intended for use on highway) and do not meet D.O.�s intended use of paths. (Mopeds may use the paths when propelled solely by human power.)

Street legal golf carts and low speed vehicles are still either golf carts or intended for use also as golf carts, and therefore may be used on the paths.

Traffic Control Measures on the Paths

The Districts own and maintain the paths and therefore could adopt rules restricting certain types of transportation methods, however, these rules would have no real value since the Districts have now enforcement authority.

Similarly, the Districts could establish speed limits for safety purposes, but again have no enforcement authority.

The Districts has the authority to construct speed bumps for safety and to reduce damage to the paths caused by speed.

Enforcement of District Established Rules

The Community Development Districts do not possess any law enforcement powers. Also the county sheriff does not have jurisdiction to exercise its law enforcement power over the districts� paths. A legislative change to Florida statues is a possible means to expand the traffic control and enforcement jurisdiction of local law enforcement agencies to extend to multi-modal path that are open to the public.

Golf Cart Registration

Without law enforcement powers, the Districts cannot mandate or enforce a registration process for golf carts. However, there is no apparent obstacle to the Districts offering a voluntary inspection and registration program as a service to those persons operating golf carts on the Districts� paths.

A Legal Opinion

The Villages is among many developing �golf cart� communities pondering rules and their enforcement on multi-modal paths. The Fact Finder has summarized the findings of Districts� attorney on multi-modal paths here and the attorney recommends that the Districts workshop these matters regarding speed bumps, legislative changes to expand the enforcement jurisdiction of local law enforcement agencies, speed limits and desired types of conveyances so there is continuity among the districts as required by the development orders.

[HalfWayIn]

And there fellow Villagers, is in a nutshell, the problem with that hole in the wall.

HalfWayIn, you are permitted to come into The Villages by motor vehicle or street legal cart. It is not the Morse's intent to provide their private development to those of you who choose not to live here.

Are they unable to block access now, I don't know but if not, it would be very advantageous for Villagers to rent their houses out for Vacationland and move out of The Villages. Stonecrest could be advertised as an additional freebie for the renters.

We'll see how it all plays out.

What problem? I have a home in TV and Stonecrest. Wow!

I still don't see how those in TV are entitled to lock others out by blocking any legal means of transportation. Oh, you say private property the path is? Well, that is where I got the idea of Lady Lake using eminent domain to eliminate the private designation. Actually, I think Lady Lake's decree already did that. Tonight is coming fast.

I don't intend to get into anyone's "intentions", you don't know, I don't know and no one else knows what Mr. Morse thinks or if he is even in town for that matter. Let's stick with the known laws rather then a perceived intent of someone as we will tonight at the meeting.

[JeffAVEWS]

Bravo Ed, I live in the Historic side and I support your position! There is a misfortuneate assumption that The Villages is a closed, gated community, and the facade of the gates we pass though (the ones on public roads) add to that illusion. I will print some copies and have them in-hand at the meeting.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

The law and the lawyers will prevail as always...enough said

[EdV]

If there is anything I have learned on these threads, it's that Stonecrest insists that non-Stonecresters can use anything of theirs that we want....

And nowhere in this thread nor in any thread in the five years I have been a member here have I ever even implied that a non-resident was entitled to use any of the private facilities in The Villages.

This thread is about my contention that a golf cart right of way to and from Paradise Dr. was established back in 1998 and that the multi-modal paths are a natural extension of the public roads in TV.

But it�s ironic to hear people complaining about congestion and overcrowding after buying a home in a community with a 120,000 resident build out plan. Amazing

[njbchbum]

snipped

HalfWayIn, you are permitted to come into The Villages by motor vehicle or street legal cart. It is not the Morse's intent to provide their private development to those of you who choose not to live here.

snipped

peachie - why do you think the developer had no problem providing access to that 'private development' - a very short cart path] to outside residents in the past 20 yrs?

[mrdarcy]

How could FP residents access TV golf cart trails. They're not allowed to use their carts until you get up to the small shopping center past the horse farm?

Fruitland Park residents cannot access TV golf cart trails at this point in time. But, if The Villages expands on the land across from Burke's BBQ, as is proposed, that land is in Fruitland Park's jurisdiction in Lake County. The Villages will construct infrastructure to support new villages, just as they have done in every other section of TV. This infrastructure will include multi-modal paths. Fruitland Park officials have already said they want their residents to have access to those new paths to get to the Colony Publix and other businesses by golf cart. The Villages representatives have told Fruitland Park officials that access on the multi-modal paths by non-Villages is a point on which TV will not negotiate.

TV representatives would have had a very difficult time defending this stance given the decades long unrestricted access on Paradise Drive, until said access was abruptly eliminated just prior to the meeting with Fruitland Park officials. Now it remains to be seen how negotiations with Fruitland Park will proceed. Sumter County and Wildwood officials can see the ways in which TV provides A LOT of revenue to local businesses, and they, therefore, have decided to concede some of their "We Want" points in negotiations with TV representatives.

I agree with Gracie that the Morses are smart business people. Look around you. How else do you think TV was built? By lazy, selfish louts? No. In most developments the Developer makes all manner of promises and then bolts outta there never to be seen or heard from again, especially when problems and the inevitable lawsuits arise. In our case, Gary Morse and the Morse family still live in the midst of all the rest of us. They live in the middle of TV. Yes, they are billionaires, but they live here. I suspect they too care about the conditions where they live just as much as each of us does.

The Developer very much deserves credit for maintaining our investment--our home's value--through his policies and business practices. I'll be much more worried about the future of TV when the Morse clan decides they would rather live in some other community, in some other state, in some other country. I, for one, am thoroughly delighted the Morses still live here. I'm OK with my neighbors being billionaires, as long they remain invested in what the place looks like.

[EdV]

It has been a few years since we attended the golf cart safety clinic but I seem to recall that the Sumter County Sheriffs office stated that they can not issue speeding tickets on Villages golf cart paths because they are considered private property?

The Sherriff�s department currently does not have traffic jurisdiction over the multi-modal paths because they are owned by the VCCDD and that district has not granted them the right to do so, which it could do if it wanted to.

But that has no bearing on the fact that those paths are available for use by the public for all the reasons I have stated before.

[justjim]

He can and not only that but he can give you a DUI.

We keep mixing apples and oranges. First we talk about the "Trails" and then we talk about the streets with golf cart marked paths along side the streets.

Police patrol the speeds on the county streets but the multi-modal trails are a totally different story. The trails our maintained by the CDD'S---The Villages---our fees. A golf cart---unless licensed and Street Legal is not in a technical way Legal Transportation the same as a car---that is my point. You have to have a Drivers License to drive a Street Legal Cart and a car but you do not to drive a golf cart.

I have never met Morse's (and have no idea how smart they are) but we did meet The father and original founder Harold Schwartz---what a nice man he was to me and my wife. I would guess the family has some very smart lawyers because they can afford the best.

I don't know about anybody else but I am always a bit skeptical of people and "things" that are not transparent-----and there was no transparency in this situation regarding the so called "Berlin Wall" and that is really sad. :gc:

[JeffAVEWS]

I wonder if Lady Lake will use eminent domain, take the lot, and make the path open to the public forever? That would be a perfect solution.

IMHO they don't have to take the lot, all they need to do is create an easement or codify the one that I believe already exists.

[Steve9930]

I would hope at the meeting today, Lady Lake makes a decision on this matter as the bickering back and forth has solved nothing, proved nothing, and may have done much harm to the relationships in the area. I'm really glad I'm up in Ohio.

[Peachie]

And nowhere in this thread nor in any thread in the five years I have been a member here have I ever even implied that a non-resident was entitled to use any of the private facilities in The Villages.

This thread is about my contention that a golf cart right of way to and from Paradise Dr. was established back in 1998 and that the multi-modal paths are a natural extension of the public roads in TV.

But it�s ironic to hear people complaining about congestion and overcrowding after buying a home in a community with a 120,000 resident build out plan. Amazing

No irony, Ed, The Villages is designed to handle the golf cart traffic of it's residents, not all of the outlying communities. For The Villages cart traffic level, we are prepared.

Ed, if The Villages is required to provide cart path access all over because of the Paradise Dr. situation, would you be willing to pay for the extra costs this would mean to Village residents? Extra costs being an ID attendent at all pools, pickleball courts, tennis courts, golf courses, and so forth. The Villages does not require that type of manpower now but would surely require it if access is wide open to the paths.

Ed, if you owned your home in The Villages and not in Stonecrest, you would be on this side of the argument.

[Peachie]

peachie - why do you think the developer had no problem providing access to that 'private development' - a very short cart path] to outside residents in the past 20 yrs?

Hi, Njbchbum. The developer didn't provide access to that private development for 20 years. There was a gate which was installed to block that access which I am given to understand was damaged and vandalized by golf cart owners outside The Villages so they could access The Villages. Lady Lake then got in the middle of it because of their public road, from what I can glean from these posts.

The Villages now wants to control this unwanted access by golf carts to golf cart paths maintained by The Villages and residents by reinstalling a gate on Village property.

This is information I have read on these posts, but bottom line is... none of us will know until the big guys sort it out.

[Steve9930]

Hi, Njbchbum. The developer didn't provide access to that private development for 20 years. There was a gate which was installed to block that access which I am given to understand was damaged and vandalized by golf cart owners outside The Villages so they could access The Villages. Lady Lake then got in the middle of it because of their public road, from what I can glean from these posts.

The Villages now wants to control this unwanted access by golf carts to golf cart paths maintained by The Villages and residents by reinstalling a gate on Village property.

This is information I have read on these posts, but bottom line is... none of us will know until the big guys sort it out.

How do we know it was outsiders that damaged the gate?

[skip0358]

Fruitland Park residents cannot access TV golf cart trails at this point in time. But, if The Villages expands on the land across from Burke's BBQ, as is proposed, that land is in Fruitland Park's jurisdiction in Lake County. The Villages will construct infrastructure to support new villages, just as they have done in every other section of TV. This infrastructure will include multi-modal paths. Fruitland Park officials have already said they want their residents to have access to those new paths to get to the Colony Publix and other businesses by golf cart. The Villages representatives have told Fruitland Park officials that access on the multi-modal paths by non-Villages is a point on which TV will not negotiate.

TV representatives would have had a very difficult time defending this stance given the decades long unrestricted access on Paradise Drive, until said access was abruptly eliminated just prior to the meeting with Fruitland Park officials. Now it remains to be seen how negotiations with Fruitland Park will proceed. Sumter County and Wildwood officials can see the ways in which TV provides A LOT of revenue to local businesses, and they, therefore, have decided to concede some of their "We Want" points in negotiations with TV representatives.

I agree with Gracie that the Morses are smart business people. Look around you. How else do you think TV was built? By lazy, selfish louts? No. In most developments the Developer makes all manner of promises and then bolts outta there never to be seen or heard from again, especially when problems and the inevitable lawsuits arise. In our case, Gary Morse and the Morse family still live in the midst of all the rest of us. They live in the middle of TV. Yes, they are billionaires, but they live here. I suspect they too care about the conditions where they live just as much as each of us does.

The Developer very much deserves credit for maintaining our investment--our home's value--through his policies and business practices. I'll be much more worried about the future of TV when the Morse clan decides they would rather live in some other community, in some other state, in some other country. I, for one, am thoroughly delighted the Morses still live here. I'm OK with my neighbors being billionaires, as long they remain invested in what the place looks like.

Yes I read the minutes from the meeting. TV even if expanded is still going to be a long way from Fruitland Park golf cart area. I believe your going to see a trade off if TV gets permission to build. I saw where it was stated that improvements would be made to Racetrack Road area I wouldn't be surprised if you don't see 466A get finished if TV gets what it wants just like 466 was finished by TV. I can truly understand NOT wanting outsiders using the golf cart trails or Multi Model paths as there already quite busy and the paths are maintained by us. JMO

[EdV]

No irony, Ed, The Villages is designed to handle the golf cart traffic of it's residents, not all of the outlying communities. For The Villages cart traffic level, we are prepared.

If The Villages wasn't designed to handle non resident traffic it should never have been organized under the CDD laws. If you want to build a private community do it with private funds. The fact that you and other residents didn't think about the consequences of purchasing a home in a CDD doesn't give you the right to declare it private.

Ed, if The Villages is required to provide cart path access all over because of the Paradise Dr. situation, would you be willing to pay for the extra costs this would mean to Village residents? Extra costs being an ID attendent at all pools, pickleball courts, tennis courts, golf courses, and so forth. The Villages does not require that type of manpower now but would surely require it if access is wide open to the paths.

I already answered this in another thread. But in case you missed it, Stonecrest does not need to use any of the amenities in TV. We have all of them already. If that's what you're really worried about you should be concentrating your efforts on thwarting access to your amenities by the thousands of residents in surrounding communities that have no amenities but have access to TV in their cars.

Ed, if you owned your home in The Villages and not in Stonecrest, you would be on this side of the argument.

Absolutely not. It would be hypocritical of me to do so.

But I'll grant you one thing, you are tenacious.

[deltaguy]

No irony, Ed, The Villages is designed to handle the golf cart traffic of it's residents, not all of the outlying communities. For The Villages cart traffic level, we are prepared.

Ed, if The Villages is required to provide cart path access all over because of the Paradise Dr. situation, would you be willing to pay for the extra costs this would mean to Village residents? Extra costs being an ID attendent at all pools, pickleball courts, tennis courts, golf courses, and so forth. The Villages does not require that type of manpower now but would surely require it if access is wide open to the paths.

Ed, if you owned your home in The Villages and not in Stonecrest, you would be on this side of the argument.

Wow! Since I haven't a clue who either one of you are I can only comment on my assessment of these comments. The last post would make it seem that this dirt path or whatever it is has more traffic than I-75. Actually, my guess would be that the traffic is minimal and very few outsiders are using this back way into TV for clandestine purposes. So what if a couple of cheaters use a community pool they are not entitled to use. Who cares if a couple of outsiders let their dogs run and crap in a Dog Park. Who cares if they visit our restaurants, movies etc. and spend a few bucks in our community. The same Residents who complain about this kind of stuff are probably oblivious to Villagers who dig up newly planted flowers in common areas to replant in their own yards. Helping themselves to material that is not theirs at construction sites. (Haven't seen it? Open your eyes) Bottom line, what's the big deal? This whole thing has been a joke that makes the folks who perpetrated it, for whatever reasons, look like a bunch of very rich jerks!

[njbchbum]

Hi, Njbchbum. The developer didn't provide access to that private development for 20 years. There was a gate which was installed to block that access which I am given to understand was damaged and vandalized by golf cart owners outside The Villages so they could access The Villages. Lady Lake then got in the middle of it because of their public road, from what I can glean from these posts.

The Villages now wants to control this unwanted access by golf carts to golf cart paths maintained by The Villages and residents by reinstalling a gate on Village property.

This is information I have read on these posts, but bottom line is... none of us will know until the big guys sort it out.

yup! i get it all up to the point that there was never an attempt to limit access after lady lake got into the mix...so why now and why not way back when? hmm......

[truered58]

If your roads were and cart paths were built with government tax free bonds then they are not private and that is why you can push a red or silver button at any gate and get in. They are not private, PERIOD!! Now if you would like us to pay a trail fee of $120.00 like you do a year I do not have a problem with that at all. Just saying.......Let's be happy please!!

[Steve9930]

Wow! Since I haven't a clue who either one of you are I can only comment on my assessment of these comments. The last post would make it seem that this dirt path or whatever it is has more traffic than I-75. Actually, my guess would be that the traffic is minimal and very few outsiders are using this back way into TV for clandestine purposes. So what if a couple of cheaters use a community pool they are not entitled to use. Who cares if a couple of outsiders let their dogs run and crap in a Dog Park. Who cares if they visit our restaurants, movies etc. and spend a few bucks in our community. The same Residents who complain about this kind of stuff are probably oblivious to Villagers who dig up newly planted flowers in common areas to replant in their own yards. Helping themselves to material that is not theirs at construction sites. (Haven't seen it? Open your eyes) Bottom line, what's the big deal? This whole thing has been a joke that makes the folks who perpetrated it, for whatever reasons, look like a bunch of very rich jerks!

Hopefully all this nonsense will be over in about 3 to 4 hours. If your going to the meeting might be best to where your Kevlar vest or take a few Valium.

I had to laugh about the flowers and construction materials. I'm always amazed on some of the objects in our community that sometimes sprout legs....LOL

[Sgtsixpack]

WOW-I read "The Manifesto" and thirteen pages of diatribe which had been suggested by a "friend". I have seen and listened to community organizers in action and heard the rallying cries to the masses to voice their opinion to Government. The bad guy is the "developer". The "good guys" are the outside agitators. And the sheep will go to the meeting- BAAH BLA BAH and then it will be over. The gate will be put up and those that vandalize shall be photographed on the cameras and rightfully prosecuted. Sanity will return and The Village lifestyle experiment shall continue.

[EdV]

Hi, Njbchbum. The developer didn't provide access to that private development for 20 years. There was a gate which was installed to block that access which I am given to understand was damaged and vandalized by golf cart owners outside The Villages so they could access The Villages. Lady Lake then got in the middle of it because of their public road, from what I can glean from these posts....

NJ, I'm sorry that you are being deliberately misguided on this. But if you want the truth, here it is. If you look at the agenda for tonight's meeting, around in the middle of that document, you'll find the engineering drawings for the approved cart path. There are no gates shown in those very detailed drawings and nowhere in the text of the plan was any such gate mentioned.

So whenever those gates were installed, it was unauthorized just like the wall was. If the gates were vandalized by having the arms removed it was likely by Stonecrest residents. After all, TV does not have a monopoly on hooligans. Nevertheless, it was unauthorized.

And if an approved golf cart throughway does not constitute a right of way through there I don't know what will.

[Peachie]

Hopefully all this nonsense will be over in about 3 to 4 hours. If your going to the meeting might be best to where your Kevlar vest or take a few Valium.

I had to laugh about the flowers and construction materials. I'm always amazed on some of the objects in our community that sometimes sprout legs....LOL

I don't know if this post bothers anyone else but it sure does me. Why are you suggesting that people wear a bullet proof vest to a public meeting. Are you threatening people or trying to instigate violence, Steve. This is the worst post I've ever read.

[cabo35]

Wow! Since I haven't a clue who either one of you are I can only comment on my assessment of these comments. The last post would make it seem that this dirt path or whatever it is has more traffic than I-75. Actually, my guess would be that the traffic is minimal and very few outsiders are using this back way into TV for clandestine purposes. So what if a couple of cheaters use a community pool they are not entitled to use. Who cares if a couple of outsiders let their dogs run and crap in a Dog Park. Who cares if they visit our restaurants, movies etc. and spend a few bucks in our community. The same Residents who complain about this kind of stuff are probably oblivious to Villagers who dig up newly planted flowers in common areas to replant in their own yards. Helping themselves to material that is not theirs at construction sites. (Haven't seen it? Open your eyes) Bottom line, what's the big deal? This whole thing has been a joke that makes the folks who perpetrated it, for whatever reasons, look like a bunch of very rich jerks!

James Q. Wilson, a famous social scientist authored the "Broken Windows" theory on crime and its proliferation. In a very short but precise excerpt the theory held as follows:

In Mr. Wilson’s metaphor —(in a neighborhood) "when a window is broken and someone fixes it, that is a sign that disorder will not be tolerated. But “one unrepaired broken window,” they wrote, “is a signal that no one cares, and so breaking more windows costs nothing.” I have understated the theory to make it brief for this forum. Feel free to explore it in detail. Volumes have been written about it and it does apply to The Villages.

William Bratten, the former NYPD Commisioner who is given credit for significantly improving conditions in NYC was a disciple of Wilson's "Broken Window theory'.

Your suggestion of, "So what if a couple of cheaters use a community pool they are not entitled to use. Who cares if a couple of outsiders let their dogs run and crap in a Dog Park.", is a spot on example and precisely the attitude that causes crime, decay and loss of property values in communities.

It is not a rich person problem as you arrogantly state. It is a problem for everyone who desires to live in a safe, secure, clean community.

Have a nice evening.

[Steve9930]

James Q. Wilson, a famous social scientist authored the "Broken Windows" theory on crime and its proliferation. In a very short but precise excerpt the theory held as follows:

In Mr. Wilson�s metaphor �(in a neighborhood) "when a window is broken and someone fixes it, that is a sign that disorder will not be tolerated. But �one unrepaired broken window,� they wrote, �is a signal that no one cares, and so breaking more windows costs nothing.� I have understated the theory to make it brief for this forum. Feel free to explore it in detail. Volumes have been written about it and it does apply to The Villages.

William Bratten, the former NYPD Commisioner who is given credit for significantly improving conditions in NYC was a disciple of Wilson's "Broken Window theory'.

Your suggestion of, "So what if a couple of cheaters use a community pool they are not entitled to use. Who cares if a couple of outsiders let their dogs run and crap in a Dog Park.", is a spot on example and precisely the attitude that causes crime, decay and loss of property values in communities.

It is not a rich person problem as you arrogantly state. It is a problem for everyone who desires to live in a safe, secure, clean community.

Have a nice evening.

Your post is very true. It was a very simple explanation of a complex social problem. Very well done and quite effective.

[janmcn]

No irony, Ed, The Villages is designed to handle the golf cart traffic of it's residents, not all of the outlying communities. For The Villages cart traffic level, we are prepared.

Ed, if The Villages is required to provide cart path access all over because of the Paradise Dr. situation, would you be willing to pay for the extra costs this would mean to Village residents? Extra costs being an ID attendent at all pools, pickleball courts, tennis courts, golf courses, and so forth. The Villages does not require that type of manpower now but would surely require it if access is wide open to the paths.

Ed, if you owned your home in The Villages and not in Stonecrest, you would be on this side of the argument.



Up until the mid-2000's there were pool monitors at all the pools in The Villages, but these minimum wage part-time positions were done away with because they were too expensive, so they said. There was a big uproar over this at the time.

Another thread states that there is a meeting at 7:00pm in Fruitland Park about the proposed development of the dairy farm. It would seem that anyone who lives close to 466A would be better served to attend that meeting, since they will more directly effected by an additional 4000 people shopping at the Colony Publix.

[Peachie]

Up until the mid-2000's there were pool monitors at all the pools in The Villages, but these minimum wage part-time positions were done away with because they were too expensive, so they said. There was a big uproar over this at the time.

Another thread states that there is a meeting at 7:00pm in Fruitland Park about the proposed development of the dairy farm. It would seem that anyone who lives close to 466A would be better served to attend that meeting, since they will more directly effected by an additional 4000 people shopping at the Colony Publix.

Watching over the years how the Morse family has grown and developed what is arguably the most beautiful community in north central FL by a long shot, I wouldn't worry one iota about them making an additional 4000 people shop at Colony Publix. The development would be planned beautifully, I guarantee it. Nope, don't know the Morse's, bless 'em.

[Peachie]

But I'll grant you one thing, you are tenacious.

And you too, Ed. Touche' ;-)

[xNYer]

If your roads were and cart paths were built with government tax free bonds then they are not private and that is why you can push a red or silver button at any gate and get in. They are not private, PERIOD!! Now if you would like us to pay a trail fee of $120.00 like you do a year I do not have a problem with that at all. Just saying.......Let's be happy please!!

The bonds indiduals paid when they purchase a home in The Villages which supported the infrastucture development are not tax free bonds. The tax tax free bonds issued by the VCCDD under dispute by the IRS relate to recreational and utility revenue bonds.
Roads maintained by the counties are public roads. (Marion County does not maintain those roads).
Golf cart paths are maintained through the use of amenity funds collected from Village residents which are also not tax deductable.
Your position would suggest that since tax free bonds were issued to purchase recreational facilities, anyone would be entitled to use thoseU facilities. It further implies that towns, counties, (or CDD's) are not allowed to restrict use to residents of their community.

[Steve9930]

The bonds indiduals paid when they purchase a home in The Villages which supported the infrastucture development are not tax free bonds. The tax tax free bonds issued by the VCCDD under dispute by the IRS relate to recreational and utility revenue bonds.
Roads maintained by the counties are public roads. (Marion County does not maintain those roads).
Golf cart paths are maintained through the use of amenity funds collected from Village residents which are also not tax deductable.
Your position would suggest that since tax free bonds were issued to purchase recreational facilities, anyone would be entitled to use thoseU facilities. It further implies that towns, counties, (or CDD's) are not allowed to restrict use to residents of their community.

One hour and ten minutes to a resolution, hopefully.

[JeffAVEWS]

You talk about impact, the modern dairy farm I saw is not a bunch of cows standing in a pasture chewing grass! They are standing in a feed lot, fed a special diet, and get milked on a race track carousel, then back to the feed lot. Wait to you get a whiff of that!

[Steve9930]

You talk about impact, the modern dairy farm I saw is not a bunch of cows standing in a pasture chewing grass! They are standing in a feed lot, fed a special diet, and get milked on a race track carousel, then back to the feed lot. Wait to you get a whiff of that!

Is that called a free feature in a development?

[Steve9930]

You can tell everyone is already at the meeting. This thread is slowed down to a crawl. Wait till they get back. You will not be able to read the posts fast enough.......

[EdV]

The bonds indiduals paid when they purchase a home in The Villages which supported the infrastucture development are not tax free bonds......

They most certainly were Tax Free Municipal Bonds. Where in the world did you come up with the idea that they weren't ?

This is tiring me out. I need a drink. Barkeep, make it a double.

[Steve9930]

They most certainly were Tax Free Municipal Bonds. Where in the world did you come up with the idea that they weren't ?

This is tiring me out. I need a drink. Barkeep, make it a double.

You on your cell phone posting this? The meeting is only an hour away.....

Too bad someone could not bring up some live video....

[JeffAVEWS]

Is that called a free feature in a development?

Someone posted that the people south of 466a would be better served going to a meeting in Fruitland Park about the dairy farm, I grabbed the wrong quote. sorry.

[Steve9930]

Someone posted that the people south of 466a would be better served going to a meeting in Fruitland Park about the dairy farm, I grabbed the wrong quote. sorry.

Yep, there's a another brew HAHA down in Fruitland Park......

[justjim]

XNYer: You make some good points. Everybody is entitled to their opinion or opinions on the subject of Multi Use Modal Trails in TV and Wheather they are open to the public to use the same as the roads and streets in TV. Some say yes and some say no they are different from the roads and streets. That appears to be the main issue debated here in this Thread. Frankly, it's above my "pay grade" to really know the answer to that question. Maybe, just maybe we will soon know the answer.

[graciegirl]

XNYer: You make some good points. Everybody is entitled to their opinion or opinions on the subject of Multi Use Modal Trails in TV and Wheather they are open to the public to use the same as the roads and streets in TV. Some say yes and some say no they are different from the roads and streets. That appears to be the main issue debated here in this Thread. Frankly, it's above my "pay grade" to really know the answer to that question. Maybe, just maybe we will soon know the answer.

Ah. The posts after the meeting.....What if the answer is NOT what some of the more prolific posters wanted to hear??

Do you think the posters who didn't get the "right" answer will quietly disappear or will we get some interesting "spin"?

Life is sure interesting in these parts! ;):pepper2:

[SpicyCajunPugs]

Ah. The posts after the meeting.....What if the answer is NOT what some of the more prolific posters wanted to hear??

Do you think the posters who didn't get the "right" answer will quietly disappear or will we get some interesting "spin"?

Life is sure interesting in these parts! ;):pepper2:

Now Gracie, we are pretty sure you know the answer to that !!! HA, HA:rant-rave::swear::pray:

[EdV]

The main issue in this thread is not about the multi-modal paths. It�s about whether or not a restrictive gate limited to Villagers can now be placed in that path.

And the Lady Lake town meeting is actually geared towards the fact that the wall was put up without a permit.

But from my standpoint, I�m hoping that the town rules that this is an established right of way and no barriers, fixed or selective may be laced there. We�ll see.

[buggyone]

The Multi-Modal Trails are Private Property. This was an entire paragraph in EdV's manifesto.

[njbchbum]

The bonds indiduals paid when they purchase a home in The Villages which supported the infrastucture development are not tax free bonds. The tax tax free bonds issued by the VCCDD under dispute by the IRS relate to recreational and utility revenue bonds.
Roads maintained by the counties are public roads. (Marion County does not maintain those roads).
Golf cart paths are maintained through the use of amenity funds collected from Village residents which are also not tax deductable.
Your position would suggest that since tax free bonds were issued to purchase recreational facilities, anyone would be entitled to use thoseU facilities. It further implies that towns, counties, (or CDD's) are not allowed to restrict use to residents of their community.

x - from the villages district gov website:
"The infrastructure of the District in which you live was built with tax-exempt bonds. The bonds are repaid with monies collected in the annual tax bill sent out by the Sumter or Marion County Tax Collector's office and appear in the Non-Ad Valorem section of the tax bill as "Bond Debt Assessment"."

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Put all the half truths, and misleading information to bed, at the Town of Lady Lake Commission meeting at 6 pm tonight

I wouldn't bet on it.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

He can and not only that but he can give you a DUI.

From what I understand this is not the case if you are on one of the multi modal paths. Am I wrong about that?

[spk7951]

The main issue in this thread is not about the multi-modal paths. It�s about whether or not a restrictive gate limited to Villagers can now be placed in that path.

And the Lady Lake town meeting is actually geared towards the fact that the wall was put up without a permit.

But from my standpoint, I�m hoping that the town rules that this is an established right of way and no barriers, fixed or selective may be laced there. We�ll see.


If the Sumter County Sheriffs office, a branch of the Sumter County government, says the cart paths are private property then I prefer to adhere to their opinion.
The issue of the private or public cart paths became an issue by some upset at a gate possibly going up.
Last but not least should the resolution 98-106, or whatever it is, be said to not allow a gate my question then is just what exactly precludes the parties responsible from changing or eliminating said resolution?

[EdV]

If the Sumter County Sheriffs office, a branch of the Sumter County government, says the cart paths are private property then I prefer to adhere to their opinion.
The issue of the private or public cart paths became an issue by some upset at a gate possibly going up.
Last but not least should the resolution 98-106, or whatever it is, be said to not allow a gate my question then is just what exactly precludes the parties responsible from changing or eliminating said resolution?

That�s not what the Sheriff�s office said. They have traffic jurisdiction over two types of properties. Those that are owned by the county in which they serve and those that are owned by entities in their county that have formally requested traffic jurisdiction.

Look, you know all those stop signs in the parking areas all over the place down here. Well if Publix that owns a parking lot formally requests traffic jurisdiction in there then a deputy can issue you a stop sign violation. But if Publix doesn�t grant that jurisdiction, it doesn�t change the public access status of that parking lot now does it.

[justjim]

Don't you have to travel on a multi Modal Trail from paradise dr to the bridge and from the bridge to a street in Spanish Springs? I have been over there a few times to The golf course and seems like that is the case. If the multi Modal Trails are private property of the CDD'S then a gate could be erected anywhere along the trail. Oh no, not another can of worms! Of course, I'm probably wrong about this.

[babyjayne]

How come Stone Crest has a gated golf cart path into its facilities. By mistake, I got locked in after going through an open gate and could not get out. But, many people want access to TV....HMMMMM.

[EdV]

Ah. The posts after the meeting.....What if the answer is NOT what some of the more prolific posters wanted to hear??

Do you think the posters who didn't get the "right" answer will quietly disappear or will we get some interesting "spin"?

Life is sure interesting in these parts! ;):pepper2:

Gracie, allow me to go on record here that if the Town of Lady Lake rules and approves a restricted access gate, I will accept it and move on. And I won't go back on my word either.

[njbchbum]

How come Stone Crest has a gated golf cart path into its facilities. By mistake, I got locked in after going through an open gate and could not get out. But, many people want access to TV....HMMMMM.

because their community was built with developer funding and not public dollars - and the ownership there pays for the maintenance of same, not the county.

[GatorFan]

Paradise Dr is in Lake County. So were bonds used to build the roads?

[Steve9930]

How come Stone Crest has a gated golf cart path into its facilities. By mistake, I got locked in after going through an open gate and could not get out. But, many people want access to TV....HMMMMM.

You were trespassing. Stonecrest is a totally owned by the Developer and the residents. It is not a CDD. Your not the Villager that broke they gate are you? We've had people ramming the gate with their cart. To access Stonecrest legally you go to the front gate and get a gate pass.

[Steve9930]

Paradise Dr is in Lake County. So were bonds used to build the roads?

Tax Free Municipal Bonds were used to build the transportation system and infrastructure of the Villages. About $427 million starting in 1998.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

...........

[EdV]

because their community was built with developer funding and not public dollars - and the ownership there pays for the maintenance of same, not the county.

And just to follow up on NJ's comment, even though our roads are private, our by-laws mandate that we allow public access via car or cart to anyone that wants to use the golf course, clubhouse, and restaurant in Stonecrest. I have no problem with that as it would be disingenuous of me to say otherwise.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

You were trespassing. Stonecrest is a totally owned by the Developer and the residents. It is not a CDD. Your not the Villager that broke they gate are you? We've had people ramming the gate with their cart. To access Stonecrest legally you go to the front gate and get a gate pass.

Unfair accusation IMHO

[Steve9930]

Unfair accusation IMHO

Where is the accusation? I asked a legitimate question to a legitimate problem that has occurred.

[graciegirl]

boyhowdy

[Steve9930]

Any news from the big meeting yet? No text messages or phone calls?

[andercat]

Several folks have mentioned that the timing of The Wall might have something to do with the negotiations with Fruitland Park. I know that the developer does not want outside business (not owned by the developer) to have golf cart access to the outside businesses. Outside business owners did not pay for the paths therefore why should they benefit from them and take business away from the developers businesses. This makes sense to me. However, the stealth of The Wall, no advanced notice, no explanation, no respect for village residents leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Do you think that this tactic will do more harm than good in the negotiations with Fuitland Park? Would you want to do business with someone like this?

[rustyp]

Paradise Dr is in Lake County. So were bonds used to build the roads?

FYI = Paradise Dr was built long before 1998. Most houses on this street are from the 70's and 80's. I have no idea what funds built these roads but doesn't seem likely that 1998 bonds were used.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

Where is the accusation? I asked a legitimate question to a legitimate problem that has occurred.

You claimed he/she was a trespasser even though he said it was an accident, among other things. Calling someone a trespasser is accusing one of a crime, which in my book is very serious.

[EdV]

FYI = Paradise Dr was built long before 1998. Most houses on this street are from the 70's and 80's. I have no idea what funds built these roads but doesn't seem likely that 1998 bonds were used.

Rusty, you are correct, no bonds were used for the villages on the east side of 441. But they did have the amenity clause built in to their purchase agreement which you can see in the Orange Blossom declarations that I transposed and posted in the Nuts and Bolts section several years ago.

At some point, transfer of the rights to collect the amenity funds were transferred to the VCCDD. But I don't know all the ins and outs of that.

[Steve9930]

You claimed he/she was a trespasser even though he said it was an accident, among other things. Calling someone a trespasser is accusing one of a crime, which in my book is very serious.

They followed a cart into a private residents though a gate marked for residents only. How is that not trespassing?

[SpicyCajunPugs]

That's correct, no one but the attorneys and powers that be know "all the in and outs" of the situation, and we should all just try to act as reasonable adults and let the legal and civic system work its magic to solve this mess.

[gomoho]

I am currently out of The Villages and enjoying life in the cool mountain air. Can't tell you what a different perspective you get on this thread when you are not in the bubble. It just sounds ridiculous that people from one community are arguing with people from another community that might ride on their golf cart paths. Really??? What is the big deal. Why is everyone so hostile to the "other side".

The issue is with the developer, not each other. Go united to the meeting and say there should be open access and for goodness sakes don't go in there fighting like a bunch of school children about "mine is bigger than yours".

Can't wait to hear what happened in the meeting - I bet it was a shouting match and out of control. You really need to step outside of the bubble to realize how silly this all is and it is seriously making me wonder if I want to continue to live in this community.

[Steve9930]

I am currently out of The Villages and enjoying life in the cool mountain air. Can't tell you what a different perspective you get on this thread when you are not in the bubble. It just sounds ridiculous that people from one community are arguing with people from another community that might ride on their golf cart paths. Really??? What is the big deal. Why is everyone so hostile to the "other side".

The issue is with the developer, not each other. Go united to the meeting and say there should be open access and for goodness sakes don't go in there fighting like a bunch of school children about "mine is bigger than yours".

Can't wait to hear what happened in the meeting - I bet it was a shouting match and out of control. You really need to step outside of the bubble to realize how silly this all is and it is seriously making me wonder if I want to continue to live in this community.

But where is the fun in that......;-)

[Steve9930]

If you feel it is fair over someone by accident going through your stonecrest gate to call him a criminal trespasser and then asking him if he also caused criminal damages to that gate because he is a villager, then there is a major problem with your posts. WOW.

All factual posts.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

I Love the Villages !!!!

[Steve9930]

I Love the Villages !!!!

Could not be happier that you do.

[CycleChic]

ANYONE (meaning NON VILLAGES RESIDENTS) of legal age can rent a golf cart from one of the Villages Golf Cart locations. The new "thing to do" is to go bar hopping in the Villages. My dental hygienist was telling me that for her 21st birthday a group of about 30 friends rented carts and spent the night bar hopping from square to square. They felt this was "safer" than driving!

Wall or no wall.....access to the cart paths is greater than you realize....

[Warren Kiefer]

well I care because right now our trails are pristine. take a look at the trails between stonecrest/walmart, and the "GATE". they are trashy and im afraid the same will happen on our trails.

So you expect hundreds of trashers coming into the Villages ?? As to the trails going to Walmart, I think it safe to say that the vast majority of those using that pathare Villagers. Stone Crest residents are not going to like the inference that they are excessive trashers.

[Steve9930]

So you expect hundreds of trashers coming into the Villages ?? As to the trails going to Walmart, I think it safe to say that the vast majority of those using that pathare Villagers. Stone Crest residents are not going to like the inference that they are excessive trashers.

Hey I like trashy. I drink my beer from a mason jar and pick my teeth with a match book cover, and I like my Beechnut.

There are no legal paths between Stonecrest and the Villages. The land owner has graciously allowed golf carts to run across his property since I got here in 2004. So there was nothing to trash because this was nothing more then undeveloped land. Once the new ALC is completed, they have graciously put in a paved path in front of their facilities. The only unpaved section is where Stonecrest and the Villages have been trespassing across Duke energy Property. However when Duke Energy tried to close the route off there was such and uproar that they backed off. There are now negotiations between Wal-Mart and Duke Energy concerning that little stretch of illegal dirt road. Hopefully in the end it will be improved so its paved all the way to the Villages. I just can't wait.

[Steve9930]

2 hours into this meeting and no news?

[Warren Kiefer]

Me too. I don't get all the negativity toward the Morse Family. They have spent at least two generations building an almost perfect retirement community,IMO. It's the American Way. Do something exceptional and you will be rewarded.

Don't you see the total picture. The Morse family did not build the Villages retirement community because they wanted to be nice guys. Everything they did was done to sell homes and make money. Of course we love the village's life, that is exactly why people move here, But, people moving here sells homes and selling homes makes lots of money. Has the Developer ever followed the example of Del Webb communities and donated anything to the residents.

[Steve9930]

Don't you see the total picture. The Morse family did not build the Villages retirement community because they wanted to be nice guys. Everything they did was done to sell homes and make money. Of course we love the village's life, that is exactly why people move here, But, people moving here sells homes and selling homes makes lots of money. Has the Developer ever followed the example of Del Webb communities and donated anything to the residents.

All the amenities that exist in Stonecrest were purchased and developed with the developers money and then turned over to the residents. Just shows the development business can be very lucrative. Just think how much more money you can make if you build it with bonds and then make the residents pay off the bond.

[buggyone]

ANYONE (meaning NON VILLAGES RESIDENTS) of legal age can rent a golf cart from one of the Villages Golf Cart locations. The new "thing to do" is to go bar hopping in the Villages. My dental hygienist was telling me that for her 21st birthday a group of about 30 friends rented carts and spent the night bar hopping from square to square. They felt this was "safer" than driving!

Wall or no wall.....access to the cart paths is greater than you realize....

Yes, they drove their cars to one of the Villages Golf Cart locations, parked the cars, and took the multi-modal trails between the squares. Probably safer than driving since after 9 pm, the multi-modal trails are virtually traffic-free and the only thing they would hit might be a tree and not a car. Of course, the Villages Carts would be closed after 9. Would they just leave the cart at the back door of the Villages Carts store?

[EdV]

They followed a cart into a private residents though a gate marked for residents only. How is that not trespassing?

Steve it really won't do any good to argue this point. Over the past fifteen years we, Stonecrest and TV residents alike have been guilty of treaspassing on others properties.

It's better to focus on the issue at hand. Whether or not there is a right of way for all golf carts at the disputed property.

[Steve9930]

Steve it really won't do any good to argue this point. Over the past fifteen years we, Stonecrest and TV residents alike have been guilty of treaspassing on others properties.

It's better to focus on the issue at hand. Whether or not there is a right of way for all golf carts at the disputed property.

I know Ed. But I got tired of reading how those Stonecrest residents destroyed the gate. You saw how quickly I got rebuffed. I guess its ok to point fingers but boy if you put the shoe on the other foot your a scum ball. Enough said about this point.

The meeting has been running now for some time I'm surprised there has been no news. Maybe there are no survivors, I'm sure its a tad lively in there.

[graciegirl]

There will be a gate. See breaking news on **************.com

[SpicyCajunPugs]

Steve it really won't do any good to argue this point. Over the past fifteen years we, Stonecrest and TV residents alike have been guilty of treaspassing on others properties.

It's better to focus on the issue at hand. Whether or not there is a right of way for all golf carts at the disputed property.

Thanks, EdV....this has gotten heated enough without calling each other criminals. I for one await the news also.

[graciegirl]

The meeting is over and there will be a gate.

Breaking news on

**************.com

[Warren Kiefer]

I don't know if this post bothers anyone else but it sure does me. Why are you suggesting that people wear a bullet proof vest to a public meeting. Are you threatening people or trying to instigate violence, Steve. This is the worst post I've ever read.

Surely you didn't take his comment as being serious??? IT WAS HUMOR !!!!!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Steve it really won't do any good to argue this point. Over the past fifteen years we, Stonecrest and TV residents alike have been guilty of treaspassing on others properties.

It's better to focus on the issue at hand. Whether or not there is a right of way for all golf carts at the disputed property.

I don't that it's considered trespassing if he owner of the property allows you to do it.

[EdV]

The meeting is over and there will be a gate.

Breaking news on

**************.com

And true to my word I will accept it. It's been an interesting ride for the past five years, but it's time to move on.

I bid all of you my best.

EdV

[Peachie]

Surely you didn't take his comment as being serious??? IT WAS HUMOR !!!!!

After what the United States has been through with mass shootings these past few years, I can't find any humor at all, Warren. Suggesting people need to shoot each other if they disagree is soooo sad and depressing for me.

[Steve9930]

Ok. This is solved I'm happy. The least is the Villages will have access, Traffic will continue to Wal-Mart from the Villages, Wal-Mart will continue their negotiations with Duke energy which means I should still have access to all the businesses on the East Side of 441/27, Mr. Mores should be kept from building a home on the site. I can live with this solution.

[Mikeod]

The meeting is over and there will be a gate.

Breaking news on

**************.com

So now we have to see what kind of gate, i.e., with or without a button to allow carts without a gate card to enter. Hopefully with a button. To me, that would address the concerns of residents on both sides of the "wall".

[Steve9930]

After what the United States has been through with mass shootings these past few years, I can't find any humor at all, Warren. Suggesting people need to shoot each other if they disagree is soooo sad and depressing for me.

That was never said.

[Peachie]

That was never said.

It was insinuated, wasn't it, Steve?

Decision is made, maybe this thread can close very soon.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

This is exactly why I said that we all (people on both sides of the coin) needed to know all the facts and legal aspects of the issues. As quoted in the article referred to by Gracie: "Documents unearthed last week during the height of fury over the wall showed that originally the site had been designated as a cart path that was to include a gate.
Commissioners this evening indicated that they feel compelled to follow the original intent of the plan as it was laid out in 1998."

I hope this brings a satisfactory solution and peace for everyone

[Steve9930]

This is exactly why I said that we all (people on both sides of the coin) needed to know all the facts and legal aspects of the issues. As quoted in the article referred to by Gracie: "Documents unearthed last week during the height of fury over the wall showed that originally the site had been designated as a cart path that was to include a gate.
Commissioners this evening indicated that they feel compelled to follow the original intent of the plan as it was laid out in 1998."

I hope this brings a satisfactory solution and peace for everyone

I believe it does. There is nothing more to comment on.

[Steve9930]

It was insinuated, wasn't it, Steve?

Decision is made, maybe this thread can close very soon.

You have no idea what it insinuated. Like I said there are no monsters around every corner.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The meeting is over and there will be a gate.

Breaking news on

**************.com

Not much of an explanation there. I'd like to hear what the decision was based on.

[njbchbum]

It was insinuated, wasn't it, Steve?
snipped


or maybe it was just assumed?

[Advogado]

I apologize, but I failed to state that because it hasn't been 20 years since the deed was granted, it wouldn't apply unless specific written permission were granted. I have been accused of being long winded when I write so I guess I didn't make myself clear...sorry

A prescriptive easement has nothing to do with a deed date nor does it require "permission". In fact, permission might negate a prescriptive easement. Since originally raising this issue, I have seen several references to the path's having been used by residents for decades. If so, the people cut off by the wall may well have met the twenty-year-use requirement and should certainly explore the possibility that they have already obtained a prescriptive easement by such use. IF they have, then the Developer's erection of the wall was an improper interference with such easement. Some big "ifs", I know, but the affected residents shouldn't overlook this possible arrow in their quiver.

[Steve9930]

or maybe it was just assumed?

By whom?

[graciegirl]

243rd verse.
Same chorus.
:sigh:

[SpicyCajunPugs]

A prescriptive easement has nothing to do with a deed date nor does it require "permission". In fact, permission might negate a prescriptive easement. Since originally raising this issue, I have seen several references to the path's having been used by residents for decades. If so, the people cut off by the wall may well have met the twenty-year-use requirement and should certainly explore the possibility that they have already obtained a prescriptive easement by such use. IF they have, then the Developer's erection of the wall was an improper interference with such easement. Some big "ifs", I know, but the affected residents shouldn't overlook this possible arrow in their quiver.

Not since it was quit claimed in 1998, and thus the 20 years begin then for any possible but not probable prescriptive easement because ownership changed. Therefore, it has not been 20 years so it does not apply. The decision has already been made.

[SpicyCajunPugs]

Not much of an explanation there. I'd like to hear what the decision was based on.

In most part it was based on the following which is quoted in the article gracie referred to: "Documents unearthed last week during the height of fury over the wall showed that originally the site had been designated as a cart path that was to include a gate.
Commissioners this evening indicated that they feel compelled to follow the original intent of the plan as it was laid out in 1998."

[Steve9930]

Good luck to all you Villagers I hope this ends this for you. Time will now tell if this satisfies the entity that originally tried to close this permanently or maybe this was the out come they planned to trigger in the first place. Seems like it would have been easier to just erect a new gate since it was in the original agreement. Again good luck and happy trails.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Up until the mid-2000's there were pool monitors at all the pools in The Villages, but these minimum wage part-time positions were done away with because they were too expensive, so they said. There was a big uproar over this at the time.

Another thread states that there is a meeting at 7:00pm in Fruitland Park about the proposed development of the dairy farm. It would seem that anyone who lives close to 466A would be better served to attend that meeting, since they will more directly effected by an additional 4000 people shopping at the Colony Publix.

I would think that, based on the way The Villages has done things in the past, if they develop a dairy farm and build homes for 4,000 people, they will also include commercial properties within that development so that the residents don't have to leave and can spent their money inside the development.

Do you really think that an expansion of The Villages would mean 4,000 more people shopping in the Colony Publix?

[JeffAVEWS]

Light Bulb alert! OMG people, He put up a wall, not a gate! His intention was to keep people in, not to keep them out! All of our 80 thousand plus post all missed the mark!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

In most part it was based on the following which is quoted in the article gracie referred to: "Documents unearthed last week during the height of fury over the wall showed that originally the site had been designated as a cart path that was to include a gate.
Commissioners this evening indicated that they feel compelled to follow the original intent of the plan as it was laid out in 1998."

According to EdV the original documents showed no plan for a gate.

[Steve9930]

According to EdV the original documents showed no plan for a gate.

The drawings do not. But the transcript indicates a gate just like the ones used for the streets. (I'm sure that will be interpreted differently). Its there black and white in nice print. The ruling today by Lady Lake is exactly what they needed to do.

[njbchbum]

By whom?

not you! ;)

[Steve9930]

not you! ;)

I know. I'm glad you got it.............Have a nice evening. I believe this will work itself out now.

[Bogie Shooter]

The Lady Lake mayor seems like a personable chap...................so mad he was going to take the law into his own hands and knock that wall down.

[njbchbum]

The Lady Lake mayor seems like a personable chap...................so mad he was going to take the law into his own hands and knock that wall down.

i'd vote for him if i lived there! he's my kinda mayor if he thinks that way! :)

[bkcunningham1]

His wife works for the district government. I wonder what she does?

[rp001]

What I find interesting:

This has been somehow turned into a heated discussion between two neighborhoods and each attacking the other.

Somehow the original owner of this problem has remained unscathed, Whomever that is.

That person who created this mess has never came forward and actually spoke up, thus taking ownership of the issue, the closing, which seems absolutely COWARDLY to me.

People choose to fight among themselves in lieu of coming together to really get to the heart of the matter, who, why?

Not that it matters, but at this point it would be a cold day in Hell before I'd shake Gary Morse's hand.

[Xavier]

What I find interesting:

This has been somehow turned into a heated discussion between two neighborhoods and each attacking the other.

Somehow the original owner of this problem has remained unscathed, Whomever that is.

That person who created this mess has never came forward and actually spoke up, thus taking ownership of the issue, the closing, which seems absolutely COWARDLY to me.

People choose to fight among themselves in lieu of coming together to really get to the heart of the matter, who, why?

Not that it matters, but at this point it would be a cold day in Hell before I'd shake Gary Morse's hand.



With all due respect, I doubt anyone will lose any sleep over whether you'd shake Gary's hand. With almost no concrete facts, I doubt I'd feel comfortable passing judgment at this point. I think that a card activated gate is a good security move.

Xavier

[TVMayor]

Days ago Janet Tutt said the wall was put up for security and liability reasons, and she stated she runs things in TV. Last night at the commission meeting when asked the first time why was the wall put up she walked away from the microphone and did not respond to the question. Later the question was asked again, �why was the wall put up and by who� she returned to the mike and answered, �I do not know�.

In Michigan we would say she is lying.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Light Bulb alert! OMG people, He put up a wall, not a gate! His intention was to keep people in, not to keep them out! All of our 80 thousand plus post all missed the mark!

Not sure how you come to that conclusion. How do you know the developers intentions?

[NoMoSno]

I think that a card activated gate is a good security move.

Xavier

Criminals usually avoid the gates...

[co519]

Criminals usually avoid the gates...

Now this is the simplest yet smartest statement yet!!!! If people feel more secure because of a single armed gate than they are sadly mistaken. This will be just a sad case of locking the back door but leaving the front door wide open!!!! I always say locks were only made to keep honest people out!!!!

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

With all due respect, I doubt anyone will lose any sleep over whether you'd shake Gary's hand. With almost no concrete facts, I doubt I'd feel comfortable passing judgment at this point. I think that a card activated gate is a good security move.

Xavier

I agree. We really have no idea why the wall was put up nor who did it. I would guess that it was someone in the developers offices as the developer owns the land. But, having known some people that head up huge organizations, what I've seen is that they were very removed from the day to day operations such as a little wall being put up.

I would think that Gary Morse is much more involved in financing and getting permits for expansion. He probably has people who take of the small things like this.

[co519]

One last thing as far as liability goes. People often have mentioned that Mr Morse or whomever built the wall did it because of a fear of liability. One would assume that he is thinking that those crossing the property that he owns would cause some liability. It would seem to me that the liability would be for those from the Villages crossing too since that plot is not owned by them. Seems to me that all that cross it would cause liability. Just my thought!!!

[PennBF]

You can't make this stuff up. The one person a person wants to shake hands with before they go is "Morse". Forget all the great people. Morse is the one most important in their life. Another community insists that visitors must state if they want to enter for a Restaurant or Golf before they can enter but propose there be no questions or restrictions to enter The Villages, In another case the Village Manager and President of the VHAs propose a solution to the wall problem to Morse but insists they have no idea who was responsible for it being put up? I swear you can't make this stuff up and there are some who actually either believe this stuff or expect the general public/residents to accept the outrages statements/positions. These only make it more difficult to separate the shaft from the wheat. :loco:

[Sgtsixpack]

Days ago Janet Tutt said the wall was put up for security and liability reasons, and she stated she runs things in TV. Last night at the commission meeting when asked the first time why was the wall put up she walked away from the microphone and did not respond to the question. Later the question was asked again, �why was the wall put up and by who� she returned to the mike and answered, �I do not know�.

In Michigan we would say she is lying.
Seems like your quiver of arrows belongs in Michigan . I suggest that Tutt is a lady and does not need to answer questions that have been already answered. But then people of integrity expect to be believed and when they're not they let time prove them right.

[graciegirl]

If ANYONE is expecting Gary Morse to explain his actions or appear in public over a gate or wall think again.

There have been public figures visit The Villages and are welcomed by various staff members and PROBABLY entertained in the Morse home but Gary Morse never appears in public or makes public comment or releases a press release. The public figures have included a president of the United States.

Janet Tutt is doing what a lot of CEO's do and sometimes her job is mighty tough.

If anyone has been in business it is a little easier to understand and maybe it isn't right to you or perfect to you but if you step back and look at this place that we live and compare it to the places we used to live, most of us would say it is run far better and smoother. Apparently we have a lot of wannabe civic planners, and folks who think they know what would be a better way to do things and know what the motivation is of the Morses who NO one I know has EVER met.

I didn't move here to be part of civic government and I don't really care how the decisions are made as long as things run smoothly and I don't have to PAY anymore than I have budgeted for.

The Morses have learned from a LOT of bad decisions and you can see as The Villages grew south that the cart paths were not placed along large thoroughfares and the processes became smoother and the building teams became more efficient and generally they learned how to do better what they do and make a LOT of money in the process. I am shocked to learn that people are furious about the money being made. I think those people do not understand how things work.

The Morses do not act like elected officials, thank Gawd because they are builders. The rest of it they learned along the way and there are probably roadblocks with some of the surrounding municipalities and county governments in how well they work or don't work with big builder business.

You cannot get blood out of a turnip. They aren't ever going to be transparent and for the most part it works.

[downeaster]

If ANYONE is expecting Gary Morse to explain his actions or appear in public over a gate or wall think again.

There have been public figures visit The Villages and are welcomed by various staff members and PROBABLY entertained in the Morse home but Gary Morse never appears in public or makes public comment or releases a press release. The public figures have included a president of the United States.

Janet Tutt is doing what a lot of CEO's do and sometimes her job is mighty tough.

If anyone has been in business it is a little easier to understand and maybe it isn't right or perfect but if you step back and look at this place that we live and compare it to the places we used to live, most of us would say it is run far better and smoother. Apparently we have a lot of wannabe civic planners, and folks who think they know what would be a better way to do things and know what the motivation is of the Morses who NO one I know has EVER met.

I didn't move here to be part of civic government and I don't really care how the decisions are made as long as things run smoothly.

The Morses have learned from a LOT of bad decisions and you can see as The Villages grew that the cart paths were removed from large throughfares and the processes became smoother and the building teams became more efficient and generally they learned how to do better what they do and make a LOT of money in the process. I am shocked to learn that people are furious about the money being made. I think those people do not understand how things work.

The Morses do not act like elected officials, thank Gawd because they are builders. The rest of it they learned along the way and there are problems with municipalities I am sure and how well they work or don't work with big builder business.

You cannot get blood out of a turnip. They aren't ever going to be transparent and for the most part it works.

Very well put, Gracie.

As to Ms. Tutt, I still have confidence in her ability to manage our community. She was put a very difficult position in this affair. To coin a phrase, she was between a rack and a hard place.

[duffysmom]

Gary Morse is retired. He is out sailing on his beautiful yacht. Mark Morse and his sisters are running TV.

[ydnar9]

I don't live in the Villages just too expensive for us, the price of homes that is. I think that the gate going into Paradise Drive should be just for Village golf carts. We were seriously looking into buying in Stonecrest for the price of homes and still have golf cart access to the Villages, a big plus, best of both worlds. Last year had the chance to buy a stucco home with a pool there for 114K, still regret not buying it, I think, but now possibly wouldn't have access to the Villages with a golf cart anyway. It was a good decision for the gate especially if they open up Spruce Creek access also. If they do allow access for Spruce Creek you can expect the prices to skyrocket for homes there, might be a good place to invest in a home for resale. Just thinking.....

[graciegirl]

Gary Morse is retired. He is out sailing on his beautiful yacht. Mark Morse and his sisters are running TV.

You know I always listen when you speak Duffy's mom, but HOW would you know this?

Do you have the same cleaning lady? ;)

I say we don't know who does what or why.:p

Or Who is on first.:024:

[Rickg]

I agree. We really have no idea why the wall was put up nor who did it. I would guess that it was someone in the developers offices as the developer owns the land. But, having known some people that head up huge organizations, what I've seen is that they were very removed from the day to day operations such as a little wall being put up.

I would think that Gary Morse is much more involved in financing and getting permits for expansion. He probably has people who take of the small things like this.

I'm sure you are very close to being correct. Someone made a poor decision, it appears resolved. Without the participation of so many this would not have had such a good outcome.

[Warren Kiefer]

Seems like your quiver of arrows belongs in Michigan . I suggest that Tutt is a lady and does not need to answer questions that have been already answered. But then people of integrity expect to be believed and when they're not they let time prove them right.

I was not at the meeting but "IF" Janet Tutt made the statement that SHE doesn't know who erected the wall, I would have serious concerns about her honesty. She might be using that old "avoid the question" method and in fact she might not know WHO the exact people who erected the wall but only a stooge would believe she doesn't know who DIRECTED the wall to be erected. It bothers me that she is paid by we the Residents, yet has direct ties to the developer. You state SHE does not need to answer questions that have neen already anwered. Did Ms Tutt ever tell anyone who had the wall erected??? If as you state that question has been answered, who then was it that had the wall erected ??? Lastly, of course she should answer the questions, she is our employee, we pay her salary !!!

[janmcn]

I was not at the meeting but "IF" Janet Tutt made the statement that SHE doesn't know who erected the wall, I would have serious concerns about her honesty. She might be using that old "avoid the question" method and in fact she might not know WHO the exact people who erected the wall but only a stooge would believe she doesn't know who DIRECTED the wall to be erected. It bothers me that she is paid by we the Residents, yet has direct ties to the developer. You state SHE does not need to answer questions that have neen already anwered. Did Ms Tutt ever tell anyone who had the wall erected??? If as you state that question has been answered, who then was it that had the wall erected ??? Lastly, of course she should answer the questions, she is our employee, we pay her salary !!!



I totally agree. What jumped out at me the most from last night's meeting was Janet Tutt saying she didn't know who ordered the wall erected. Last week she knew it was erected because of safety and liability concerns. How can she know why it was erected, but not who ordered it erected?

[renielarson]

I don't know if Gary Morse is out sailing on his Cracker Bay yacht.

I do know it has been reported that in 2006, Morse transferred most of the direct ownership in the holding company (Holding Company of the Villages Ltd) to his three children: Mark Morse serves as President of the company; Tracy Mathews oversees Villages design; and Jennifer L. Parr is a director. Gary Morse retained the largest block of voting shares, and is credited with the family�s fortune. Billionaire Morse Behind Curtain at Villages - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-04/hidden-billionaire-morse-a-man-behind-curtain-at-villages.html)

It doesn't appear he is retired.

[Jim 9922]

I totally agree. What jumped out at me the most from last night's meeting was Janet Tutt saying she didn't know who ordered the wall erected. Last week she knew it was erected because of safety and liability concerns. How can she know why it was erected, but not who ordered it erected?
Seems to me she behaves just like a public employee when something goes wrong; bob, weave, officate, duck, deflect, and deny about matters that are suppose to be under your control. Maybe, even, she was the one who made the final authorization. Who knows, she's certainly not telling. She has a better wall around her than the concrete one they actually put up.:jester:

[duffysmom]

You know I always listen when you speak Duffy's mom, but HOW would you know this?

Do you have the same cleaning lady? ;)

I say we don't know who does what or why.:p

Or Who is on first.:024:

Gracie, the last time Gary called me he was in Barbados on his yacht.

Cracker Bay Yacht (ex. Campbell Bay) Photos - Hakvoort... (http://www.superyachts.com/motor-yacht-2536/cracker-bay-photos.htm)

He told me to tell you the check is in the mail.:1rotfl::1rotfl:

For those of you folks who haven't met Gary, here's a picture of him.

He is the... - Gary Morse - OrlandoSentinel.com (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/orl-gary-morse-19991014,0,6544462.photo)

[graciegirl]

Gracie, the last time Gary called me he was in Barbados on his yacht.

Cracker Bay Yacht (ex. Campbell Bay) Photos - Hakvoort... (http://www.superyachts.com/motor-yacht-2536/cracker-bay-photos.htm)

He told me to tell you the check is in the mail.:1rotfl::1rotfl:

For those of you folks who haven't met Gary, here's a picture of him.

He is the... - Gary Morse - OrlandoSentinel.com (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/orl-gary-morse-19991014,0,6544462.photo)

There are those who believe that Duffy's mom and I know you meant it as a joke.

WOW. I have never seen this picture of Gary Morse and this is dated in 1999. Wow. Am I allowed to copy and print this?. I think he has a nice face. His teeth aren't perfect. I bet he grew up just like I did. Didn't have the money for having teeth straightened either back then.
http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2013-05/75894399.jpg orl-gary-morse-19991014 http://www.orlandosentinel.com/hive/images/ratings/rating_off.jpghttp://www.orlandosentinel.com/hive/images/ratings/rating_off.jpghttp://www.orlandosentinel.com/hive/images/ratings/rating_off.jpghttp://www.orlandosentinel.com/hive/images/ratings/rating_off.jpghttp://www.orlandosentinel.com/hive/images/ratings/rating_off.jpg


( STEPHEN M. DOWELL, ORLANDO SENTINEL / October 14, 1999 )
He is the developer of The Villages, the overwhelmingly Republican retirement community of 100,000 sprawling over Lake, Sumter and Marion counties. Morse, his family and companies donated $2.4 million in 2012 alone to Republican causes. His jets fly high-ranking party members and his yacht the Cracker Bay was the site of a party during the GOP convention for those who put together more than $1 million for GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney. He was also a Florida presidential elector for both of George W. Bush's elections. (Morse is rarely photographed in public; the photo here is from 1999.)

[rp001]

For the record, my understanding is that Mr Morse is very much a "HANDS ON MANAGER" . He has a reputation among the district as being the first one in and the last to leave the office every day. He maintains a very low profile but is absolutely tuned in to the goings on in this district. I got that info from a manager within the district and I will respect his confidentiality. I believe that this was very much a decision made by Morse and is tied in to theFruitland Park issue..That is feeling not based on any fact but if it quacks like a duck....

[Peachie]

For the record, my understanding is that Mr Morse is very much a "HANDS ON MANAGER" . He has a reputation among the district as being the first one in and the last to leave the office every day. He maintains a very low profile but is absolutely tuned in to the goings on in this district. I got that info from a manager within the district and I will respect his confidentiality. I believe that this was very much a decision made by Morse and is tied in to theFruitland Park issue..That is feeling not based on any fact but if it quacks like a duck....


And what is wrong with that? I'm curious as to why you need to know how every decision is made. IMHO, the suppositions on here have beat all of these questions to death and I also had a hand in that. Would knowing change anything, no. Maybe there is something more interesting happening in the world right now.

[duffysmom]

Gracie, never for a minute would I believe you are on the Morse payroll.:rant-rave: I enjoy the fact that you love living here as much as I do and feel only gratitude towards the founding family of paradise. All the vitriol towards the developer is sad; I think Gary knows the majority of Villagers are happy and grateful for the lifestyle he's given us. Whatever happens regarding the gate will not interfere one iota in the pleasure I derive from living here.

[graciegirl]

Gracie, never for a minute would I believe you are on the Morse payroll.:rant-rave: I enjoy the fact that you love living here as much as I do and feel only gratitude towards the founding family of paradise. All the vitriol towards the developer is sad; I think Gary knows the majority of Villagers are happy and grateful for the lifestyle he's given us. Whatever happens regarding the gate will not interfere one iota in the pleasure I derive from living here.

I luv ya Duffy's mom and always have.

Did I see a post inquiring about a puppy dog on here a week or so ago?

I stand ready to do a shower. Having you as a mom would be a wonderful thing for a furry creature.

[deltaguy]

Gracie, the last time Gary called me he was in Barbados on his yacht.

Cracker Bay Yacht (ex. Campbell Bay) Photos - Hakvoort... (http://www.superyachts.com/motor-yacht-2536/cracker-bay-photos.htm)

He told me to tell you the check is in the mail.:1rotfl::1rotfl:

For those of you folks who haven't met Gary, here's a picture of him.

He is the... - Gary Morse - OrlandoSentinel.com (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/orl-gary-morse-19991014,0,6544462.photo)

Anyone have any idea about the average cost of a home at Bridgeport at Laurel Valley?

[Peachie]

Anyone have any idea about the average cost of a home at Bridgeport at Laurel Valley?

I'd suggest you talk with a realtor, if you're looking to buy. You may want to start your own thread regarding real estate in The Villages.