Enlighten Me

[senior citizen]

Enlighten me as to the why Italian Americans (just using that one ethnic group for now, of which I am "one half" ethnicity Italian) can maintain a good sense of humor all through the years when shows like "The Sopranos" plus movies like "Goodfellas" among a myriad of others.......and now "The Family" starring Robert De Niro and Michelle Pheiffer about a mobster who goes into the witness protection program in Paris with his non Italian wife and their children.........are frequently promoted depicting Italians as crime family bosses, hit men, thugs, murderers, and so on???

By the way, I can't wait to see it........we've seen every single Di Niro movie and Pacino movie ever made......plus those of Joe Pesce...etc.

BUT, why are we not insulted? How do we maintain our composure and our good humor????

The only scenes in THE SOPRANOS I can relate to are Sunday Dinner.....

Oh, yes, we did have relatives in Caldwell New Jersey and Livingston, New Jersey......but one was a plumber and not in the mob, that's for sure.

He retired to Brooksville, Florida. He wasn't even Italian but Hungarian.

THE GODFATHER movies.......remind me of my own immigrant grandparents when they came to Little Italy New York City in the 1890 time period.........and "how it must have been for them".........as poor people in tenements.

NOT as young Michael becoming the crime boss of the famiglia (family in Italian).

Most Italian Americans were NOT in crime organizations.

So, why do we have to tippy toe around drug dealers that come up from the cities to Vermont??? Especially when it's a fact of life and in our daily newspapers. It's not a secret up here? We don't want them here. Our cops don't want them here. The F.B.I. doesn't want them here.

Or the ones who cross borders illegally?

All of mine came legally and I have the ship's manifests and documents to prove it.

Or the ones who get out of the prison system and then see our small state as a "soft target" where folks are backwards and ignorant. Far from it.

They all stand out like a sore thumb, if truth be told.

I just don't get it.

Any fellow Italians care to enlighten me?
Thank you in advance.............

[graciegirl]

Enlighten me as to the why Italian Americans (just using that one ethnic group for now, of which I am "one half" ethnicity Italian) can maintain a good sense of humor all through the years when shows like "The Sopranos" plus movies like "Goodfellas" among a myriad of others.......and now "The Family" starring Robert De Niro and Michelle Pheiffer about a mobster who goes into the witness protection program in Paris with his non Italian wife and their children.........are frequently promoted depicting Italians as crime family bosses, hit men, thugs, murderers, and so on???

By the way, I can't wait to see it........we've seen every single Di Niro movie and Pacino movie ever made......plus those of Joe Pesce...etc.

BUT, why are we not insulted? How do we maintain our composure and our good humor????

The only scenes in THE SOPRANOS I can relate to are Sunday Dinner.....

Oh, yes, we did have relatives in Caldwell New Jersey and Livingston, New Jersey......but one was a plumber and not in the mob, that's for sure.

He retired to Brooksville, Florida. He wasn't even Italian but Hungarian.

THE GODFATHER movies.......remind me of my own immigrant grandparents when they came to Little Italy New York City in the 1890 time period.........and "how it must have been for them".........as poor people in tenements.

NOT as young Michael becoming the crime boss of the famiglia (family in Italian).

Most Italian Americans were NOT in crime organizations.

So, why do we have to tippy toe around drug dealers that come up from the cities to Vermont??? Especially when it's a fact of life and in our daily newspapers. It's not a secret up here? We don't want them here. Our cops don't want them here. The F.B.I. doesn't want them here.

Or the ones who cross borders illegally?

All of mine came legally and I have the ship's manifests and documents to prove it.

Or the ones who get out of the prison system and then see our small state as a "soft target" where folks are backwards and ignorant. Far from it.

They all stand out like a sore thumb, if truth be told.

I just don't get it.

Any fellow Italians care to enlighten me?
Thank you in advance.............

The same reason we German descendants can keep a level head and a sense of humor . We all have some shameful happening in history of our family's former countries that we had nothing to do with. Or shameful current behaviors of folks with like ancestors. That goes for all ethnicities.

Gracie, the stubborn kraut who is sickened by Adolf Hitler.

[chachacha]

Vermont should get a couple of goombahs to escort the druggies out of the state :) i can say this because i am 100% sicilian! when we cannot look honestly on the entire spectrum of our culture, we get political correctness! and that is a killer!

[asianthree]

i reading this post eating breakfast of italian sauage and onions...(its whats for dinner and i am eating some now)..i like gracie have 100 german on dads side..my parents and then as children we only allowed to speak german in the house..once we crossed the threshold it was english only...so we were never allowed our heritage to show and now my german is awful...at disney i can understand some words but to reply to not going to happen...so sad for you correct post

[billethkid]

we need a couple of da boys and goommbas to help congress and the WH with their problems.

btk

[NotGolfer]

Stereo-types have always been a fact of life! Think how folks depict the Scandanavian's (blond, "cold" ), Jewish folks, Slavics, Asian ---well I don't have to expound on all of the different ones. I, for one, think it's a form of discrimination.

I never have been drawn to the programs/movies you talk about because of the violence etc. I have friends who are Italian---they're just like me who comes from Northern European stock. Have many of the same values and mores. America truly is a "melting-pot" so I find it interesting on how we still try to identify with our ancestors! My family of orgin is mix of several nationalities so my kids can't really say "I'm ____(fill in the blank)!"

[donb9006]

Stereo-types have always been a fact of life! Think how folks depict the Scandanavian's (blond, "cold" ), Jewish folks, Slavics, Asian ---well I don't have to expound on all of the different ones. I, for one, think it's a form of discrimination.

I never have been drawn to the programs/movies you talk about because of the violence etc. I have friends who are Italian---they're just like me who comes from Northern European stock. Have many of the same values and mores. America truly is a "melting-pot" so I find it interesting on how we still try to identify with our ancestors! My family of orgin is mix of several nationalities so my kids can't really say "I'm ____(fill in the blank)!"

Stereotypes ARE stereotypes because generally they ARE true.

We were a European melting pot. Not since the 60s have we been a "true" global melting pot. And look where it's gotten us. Everyone's standard of living is being lowered because of it. We all seem to be heading down to their level.

[DianeM]

we need a couple of da boys and goommbas to help congress and the WH with their problems.

btk

I like the way you put that.:agree:

[Cedwards38]

You state, "By the way, I can't wait to see it........."

That's why. :clap2:

[Golfingnut]

Nah, it's because we eat so much pasta and all that starch has a calming effect on the nervous system.

Love and laughs
Louie

[redwitch]

There are Americans of Italian descent upset with the stereotyping and depicting of Italians as mobsters. There are Americans of German descent who are upset at being depicted as Nazis. There are Americans of Polish descent who object to being considered stupid. And so on and so forth. Yes, some can laugh at themselves and their heritage. Some can't.

The problems occurred when we started forcing people into jobs they for which were not qualified. Rather than training and teaching people, someone got the bright idea that if you put a person in a slot, they'd eventually fill it. Well, fill it they did but not productively. Even so, equal rights are still not here. Women still make less than their male counterpart for the same job. Some employers still won't hire people of color. Our prisons are over-populated with the majority of inmates coming from poverty and being of the racial "minority" (which is also changing). And so on and so forth.

Personally, I'm German -- born and bred. I have dual citizenship but I do not consider myself German-American. I was raised European but I think I'm becoming more American every day. Who knows, maybe in another twenty years or so, I'll think of myself as German-American. For now, however, I'm a German living in the land that I love -- America.

[graciegirl]

There are Americans of Italian descent upset with the stereotyping and depicting of Italians as mobsters. There are Americans of German descent who are upset at being depicted as Nazis. There are Americans of Polish descent who object to being considered stupid. And so on and so forth. Yes, some can laugh at themselves and their heritage. Some can't.

The problems occurred when we started forcing people into jobs they for which were not qualified. Rather than training and teaching people, someone got the bright idea that if you put a person in a slot, they'd eventually fill it. Well, fill it they did but not productively. Even so, equal rights are still not here. Women still make less than their male counterpart for the same job. Some employers still won't hire people of color. Our prisons are over-populated with the majority of inmates coming from poverty and being of the racial "minority" (which is also changing). And so on and so forth.

Personally, I'm German -- born and bred. I have dual citizenship but I do not consider myself German-American. I was raised European but I think I'm becoming more American every day. Who knows, maybe in another twenty years or so, I'll think of myself as German-American. For now, however, I'm a German living in the land that I love -- America.

The only thing we can do...is to be a good example of who we are. We can make our background a plus or a minus, it lies with us today. It is foolish and unrealistic and unhelpful to blame our ethnicity, or race, or gender or the social status we were born into, or the amount of money our families had or did not have on whether we personally are making a success of the life we are given. There are still some roadblocks in this country , but NOTHING that hard work and sacrifice and good management of time and money can't overcome if we are given an able body and mind.

[redwitch]

The only thing we can do...is to be a good example of who we are. We can make our background a plus or a minus, it lies with us today. It is foolish and unrealistic and unhelpful to blame our ethnicity, or race, or gender or the social status we were born into, or the amount of money our families had or did not have on whether we personally are making a success of the life we are given. There are still some roadblocks in this country , but NOTHING that hard work and sacrifice and good management of time and money can't overcome if we are given an able body and mind.

Gracie, I agree and I don't agree at the same time. We can be good examples to our kids, grandkids and their peers, but what kind of examples do inner city kids have? The ones who are successful are either drug dealers or professional athletes. Even if they have hard-working fathers as examples (which few do), I can only imagine how hard it would be to follow those fathers' examples when the kid dealing is making thousands every week. Tis a hard culture to beat.

I'm watching my daughter turn into a wonderful young woman. For awhile, I was afraid peers and today's slacker society would win out. Too many kids today really do believe they are entitled to all the things we worked hard to get but don't seem to understand they need to work for these things. So, if a child has the examples, it has the chance to succeed and even thrive. But what do we do with child whose examples are truly nothing but an anathema to the middle-class of this country? They don't see that hard work does have rewards; they don't see that things need to be earned and not everything can be received now. Heck, some of them can't even see that the pro athlete from their hood worked from childhood to excel -- that it wasn't just something handed to them because of talent.

[Golfingnut]

I have for 11 years in Germany lived. Wonderful country and people, just more activities that we enjoy in the states and especially in The Villages.

[Bucco]

Gracie, I agree and I don't agree at the same time. We can be good examples to our kids, grandkids and their peers, but what kind of examples do inner city kids have? The ones who are successful are either drug dealers or professional athletes. Even if they have hard-working fathers as examples (which few do), I can only imagine how hard it would be to follow those fathers' examples when the kid dealing is making thousands every week. Tis a hard culture to beat.

I'm watching my daughter turn into a wonderful young woman. For awhile, I was afraid peers and today's slacker society would win out. Too many kids today really do believe they are entitled to all the things we worked hard to get but don't seem to understand they need to work for these things. So, if a child has the examples, it has the chance to succeed and even thrive. But what do we do with child whose examples are truly nothing but an anathema to the middle-class of this country? They don't see that hard work does have rewards; they don't see that things need to be earned and not everything can be received now. Heck, some of them can't even see that the pro athlete from their hood worked from childhood to excel -- that it wasn't just something handed to them because of talent.

Actually I believe that there are examples for inner city kids. The Cosby types, and there are many of them around our country.....they simply get drowned out by folks who find it easier to blame.

Those groups are supported by most teachers trying to encourage participation by family and rebuffed.

The link below is from a study which is 13 years old, but still applicable.

"The data revealed that teachers are frustrated with a lack of parental involvement in literacy activities at home and at school. Parents, however, expressed distrust toward the local elementary school because they felt the faculty has been biased against African American and Latino children and their families. Consequently, the parents said they deliberately decided not to participate in school activities"

Why Urban Parents Resist Involvement in their Children's Elementary Education (http://www.nova.edu/ssss/QR/QR5-3/mcdermott.html)

I have had some personal experience with this kind of things while back in PA.

The mayor and a few others felt the Spanish population was growing but there seemed to be very little participation in city programs. A few of us thought it might be smart to get the young people involved in some sports programs. We reached out to leaders of that community and they listened, but only wanted our help in setting up programs INSIDE the Spanish community and told us the had no interest in integrating their young folks into the community. No exaggeration at all.

Thus I disagree with no help......it is there but muted by the louder groups...we do agree on the inner city problem however but, in my opinion, it is being almost taught. In places in Tampa, how to work the system is taught.

[donb9006]

Actually I believe that there are examples for inner city kids. The Cosby types, and there are many of them around our country.....they simply get drowned out by folks who find it easier to blame.

Those groups are supported by most teachers trying to encourage participation by family and rebuffed.

The link below is from a study which is 13 years old, but still applicable.

"The data revealed that teachers are frustrated with a lack of parental involvement in literacy activities at home and at school. Parents, however, expressed distrust toward the local elementary school because they felt the faculty has been biased against African American and Latino children and their families. Consequently, the parents said they deliberately decided not to participate in school activities"

Why Urban Parents Resist Involvement in their Children's Elementary Education (http://www.nova.edu/ssss/QR/QR5-3/mcdermott.html)

I have had some personal experience with this kind of things while back in PA.

The mayor and a few others felt the Spanish population was growing but there seemed to be very little participation in city programs. A few of us thought it might be smart to get the young people involved in some sports programs. We reached out to leaders of that community and they listened, but only wanted our help in setting up programs INSIDE the Spanish community and told us the had no interest in integrating their young folks into the community. No exaggeration at all.

Thus I disagree with no help......it is there but muted by the louder groups...we do agree on the inner city problem however but, in my opinion, it is being almost taught. In places in Tampa, how to work the system is taught.

Now you're catching on to "African-American", Mexican-American", they don't want to be American, they want to be an African or Mexican who happen to live in America. It's like new neighbors who don't want to have anything to do with the neighborhood or the people who live there. They want the advantages without the responsibility. Slowly the neighborhood goes into decline... Slowly our country goes into decline...

[Bucco]

Now you're catching on to "African-American", Mexican-American", they don't want to be American, they want to be an African or Mexican who happen to live in America. It's like new neighbors who don't want to have anything to do with the neighborhood or the people who live there. They want the advantages without the responsibility. Slowly the neighborhood goes into decline... Slowly our country goes into decline...

Trust me...I am NOT just catching on. I changed my entire career path about 50 years ago when I realized what political involvement was doing to these kind of problems.

[redwitch]

Reality is that Hispanics really don't feel they are xx-American anything -- it was never their intention to stay in the United States. The goal was always to support their families here and back home and then ultimately go back home. This makes them far different from most immigrants here and creates many, many problems. Worse yet, many do not go back home -- they end up marrying, having kids and staying here, yet they perpetuate the myth that they will go back home and carry it through to their children and grandchildren.

As to African-Americans, they use the excuse of never having volunteered to come here -- their ancestors were slaves and they were forced to come here. Once freed, the next round of excuses occurred -- they were free but not considered equal nor given the same chances their white peers were given. Sadly, both issues are true. However, that does not negate the fact that many have chosen to take the easy route and stay in their ghettos and live without hope.

I truly don't understand the willingness to not pull yourself up, to not get out and do. My family traveled all over the world. My father absolutely demanded that we not only accept the culture of the nation we were in, but to embrace it, to learn the language the best we could, to live within the rules and guidelines of that nation even though we knew we would be leaving within months or a year at the most.

Those who insist on living only in their past culture or past history cheat not only the citizens of their present nation, but themselves. America is a beautiful country with truly wonderful people. Given the chance, you can succeed quite well here but you have to be willing to work hard, learn much and have a bit of luck. To be willing to live in a ghetto or a barrio, to never try to learn proper American, to force your children to live this life forces all to fail and to let the drug dealers, the slackers win and we all lose.

Personally, I'd rather see the U.S. give billions to third world countries to help bring the standard of living to something that doesn't force people to leave than to pay people here into a lifestyle guaranteed to instill a sense of failure.

[lovsthosebigdogs]

Reality is that Hispanics really don't feel they are xx-American anything -- it was never their intention to stay in the United States. The goal was always to support their families here and back home and then ultimately go back home. This makes them far different from most immigrants here and creates many, many problems. Worse yet, many do not go back home -- they end up marrying, having kids and staying here, yet they perpetuate the myth that they will go back home and carry it through to their children and grandchildren.

As to African-Americans, they use the excuse of never having volunteered to come here -- their ancestors were slaves and they were forced to come here. Once freed, the next round of excuses occurred -- they were free but not considered equal nor given the same chances their white peers were given. Sadly, both issues are true. However, that does not negate the fact that many have chosen to take the easy route and stay in their ghettos and live without hope.

I truly don't understand the willingness to not pull yourself up, to not get out and do. My family traveled all over the world. My father absolutely demanded that we not only accept the culture of the nation we were in, but to embrace it, to learn the language the best we could, to live within the rules and guidelines of that nation even though we knew we would be leaving within months or a year at the most.

Those who insist on living only in their past culture or past history cheat not only the citizens of their present nation, but themselves. America is a beautiful country with truly wonderful people. Given the chance, you can succeed quite well here but you have to be willing to work hard, learn much and have a bit of luck. To be willing to live in a ghetto or a barrio, to never try to learn proper American, to force your children to live this life forces all to fail and to let the drug dealers, the slackers win and we all lose.

Personally, I'd rather see the U.S. give billions to third world countries to help bring the standard of living to something that doesn't force people to leave than to pay people here into a lifestyle guaranteed to instill a sense of failure.

Very good post, Redwitch. I just retired this past June as a special ed teacher and spent the second half of my career working in a poor inner city school. I had many preconceived ideas about the lives these people led and their motivations or lack thereof before I started. To say that I was disappointed with the parents and/or culture that continued to keep them shortsighted and living in poverty, would be an understatement. The culture of poverty will win out most of the time, in my experience. I, too, was an enabler, buying coats, shoes and feeding the children in my charge and not making the parents responsible for their own children. They had money for important things-Disney trips, jewelry, cigarettes, new phones, big screen TVs and electronics but could not see that homework and getting an education was a way out. What I thought was a stereotype of poverty was, more often than not, a reality. It is very painful for me to say this because I abhor stereotypes and the unfair burden they attach to people, but I saw what I saw and I hurt for the children I came to love. Without education, there is no long term, healthy way out of poverty.

[Bucco]

Reality is that Hispanics really don't feel they are xx-American anything -- it was never their intention to stay in the United States. The goal was always to support their families here and back home and then ultimately go back home. This makes them far different from most immigrants here and creates many, many problems. Worse yet, many do not go back home -- they end up marrying, having kids and staying here, yet they perpetuate the myth that they will go back home and carry it through to their children and grandchildren.

As to African-Americans, they use the excuse of never having volunteered to come here -- their ancestors were slaves and they were forced to come here. Once freed, the next round of excuses occurred -- they were free but not considered equal nor given the same chances their white peers were given. Sadly, both issues are true. However, that does not negate the fact that many have chosen to take the easy route and stay in their ghettos and live without hope.

I truly don't understand the willingness to not pull yourself up, to not get out and do. My family traveled all over the world. My father absolutely demanded that we not only accept the culture of the nation we were in, but to embrace it, to learn the language the best we could, to live within the rules and guidelines of that nation even though we knew we would be leaving within months or a year at the most.

Those who insist on living only in their past culture or past history cheat not only the citizens of their present nation, but themselves. America is a beautiful country with truly wonderful people. Given the chance, you can succeed quite well here but you have to be willing to work hard, learn much and have a bit of luck. To be willing to live in a ghetto or a barrio, to never try to learn proper American, to force your children to live this life forces all to fail and to let the drug dealers, the slackers win and we all lose.

Personally, I'd rather see the U.S. give billions to third world countries to help bring the standard of living to something that doesn't force people to leave than to pay people here into a lifestyle guaranteed to instill a sense of failure.

Very well said !

Now we need to get the rabble rousers off the stage and let the adults provide examples for the inner cities. We, as a country,need to stop playing politics with these folk and provide, no matter how difficult, the path to self respect.

[graciegirl]

I have read RedWitch's post and Lovethosebigdogs too. Several times now. What thoughtful and experienced posts with such good sense.

We have so many really insightful people who post on this forum.

I am proud to know them.

[kagney123]

Enlighten me as to the why Italian Americans (just using that one ethnic group for now, of which I am "one half" ethnicity Italian) can maintain a good sense of humor all through the years when shows like "The Sopranos" plus movies like "Goodfellas" among a myriad of others.......and now "The Family" starring Robert De Niro and Michelle Pheiffer about a mobster who goes into the witness protection program in Paris with his non Italian wife and their children.........are frequently promoted depicting Italians as crime family bosses, hit men, thugs, murderers, and so on???

By the way, I can't wait to see it........we've seen every single Di Niro movie and Pacino movie ever made......plus those of Joe Pesce...etc.

BUT, why are we not insulted? How do we maintain our composure and our good humor????





The only scenes in THE SOPRANOS I can relate to are Sunday Dinner.....

Oh, yes, we did have relatives in Caldwell New Jersey and Livingston, New Jersey......but one was a plumber and not in the mob, that's for sure.

He retired to Brooksville, Florida. He wasn't even Italian but Hungarian.

THE GODFATHER movies.......remind me of my own immigrant grandparents when they came to Little Italy New York City in the 1890 time period.........and "how it must have been for them".........as poor people in tenements.

NOT as young Michael becoming the crime boss of the famiglia (family in Italian).

Most Italian Americans were NOT in crime organizations.

So, why do we have to tippy toe around drug dealers that come up from the cities to Vermont??? Especially when it's a fact of life and in our daily newspapers. It's not a secret up here? We don't want them here. Our cops don't want them here. The F.B.I. doesn't want them here.

Or the ones who cross borders illegally?

All of mine came legally and I have the ship's manifests and documents to prove it.

Or the ones who get out of the prison system and then see our small state as a "soft target" where folks are backwards and ignorant. Far from it.

They all stand out like a sore thumb, if truth be told.

I just don't get it.

Any fellow Italians care to enlighten me?
Thank you in advance.............

To answer your question, most of my Italian freinds were not insulted about the Mafia reference in movies BUT LoL Cher starred in a movie called Moonstruck and in that movie the older Italian man had 5 dogs....My friends were insulted saying a real Italian would never have 5 dogs.

My dearest mom was 100% Polish and my dearest dad was 100% Irish.
My mom was brillant and my dad didn't drink...

Wishing everyone a wonderful day

[donb9006]

Without education, there is no long term, healthy way out of poverty.

Without being able to be educated...there's no way out of poverty. I think that's closer to the truth.