Joggers have the Right-of-Way?

[OldManTime]

Should one driving a golf cart on a specifically designated Golf Cart and Bicycle path on a main artery, like Morse Blvd., be expected to go into automobile traffic and risk being hit by a car?

[BettyCrocked]

I have had to just come to a complete stop in the diamond lane because a walker wouldn't take one step onto the grass and there were cars coming in the traffic lane. Once I stopped, they had to move over to get by.

[DonH57]

Were they coming toward you against the flow of traffic? I had one on Morse blvd doing that so I just stopped my cart to a dead stop and pointed to the direction of traffic as he had to go in the grass to go around. I wasn't about to abruptly go into the traffic lane and get hit. If they are going the same direction I slow down behind them then pass when it's safe.

[Mudder]

First of all they should NEVER be jogging, running or walking in the same direction as traffic, they are asking to get hit. If they are coming towards me I too stop and point to the grass, if they are going in same direction I try to tell them they are on the wrong side....that is not a good idea however unless you don't mind getting swear words shouted at you. And no I will not pull out n traffic to avoid them.

[blueeagle65]

When I was little I was taught that pedestrians should get out of the way of anything larger and more powerful. Apparently some of the dingbats on foot around TV have a force field that will protect them.

[George Bieniaszek]

As in boating, a general rule of thumb is anything larger than you has the right of way!!!

[redwitch]

Pedestrians normally have the right of way -- even if going the wrong way or doing something else illegal like jaywalking. Most of the walkers/joggers I see on Morse get on the grass when they see a golf cart coming. The few that don't will get me to stop but the dirty look I give them is not a pleasant thing to behold.

[DougB]

If I am behind them, I have no problem waiting until it is safe to pass. If they are joggling and coming toward me, I usually pull into the grass a little so they can keep their stride and stay on a smooth surface

[DonH57]

I would pull in the grass but it bounces my drink all over the cart!

[DougB]

I would pull in the grass but it bounces my drink all over the cart!

Get one of those hats that holds your drink and has the long straw hanging out. Works for me.

[Golfingnut]

I agree that we should yield to JOGGERS, but JOGGERS, please don't demand that right if it makes you DEAD right. There are a lot of folks that should not be driving but are.

[al & jane]

Let's try to show a little courtesy. What if we replace "jogger" with Lady in a Walker, Man with a Cane, Guy carrying his golf clubs or Mom Pushing a Stroller? Is there any question what you would do?

I've been running here for 3 years and, fortunately, everybody I've encountered out there on paths has been polite to me as I have been to them.

[Golfingnut]

Let's try to show a little courtesy. What if we replace "jogger" with Lady in a Walker, Man with a Cane, Guy carrying his golf clubs or Mom Pushing a Stroller? Is there any question what you would do?

I've been running here for 3 years and, fortunately, everybody I've encountered out there on paths has been polite to me as I have been to them.

:BigApplause:

[karostay]

Let's try to show a little courtesy. What if we replace "jogger" with Lady in a Walker, Man with a Cane, Guy carrying his golf clubs or Mom Pushing a Stroller? Is there any question what you would do?

I've been running here for 3 years and, fortunately, everybody I've encountered out there on paths has been polite to me as I have been to them.
Courtesy has been on the down hill slide here for the past few years.
When we first arrived in the villages everyone in golf carts waved said hello
Rarely happens any more so sad

[DonH57]

Get one of those hats that holds your drink and has the long straw hanging out. Works for me.

Hey, yeah. I forgot about those. Thanks.

[Chazz]

I cycle a lot on MUPs (multi use paths) outside TV, such as the Withlacoochee Stat Trail. The order of precedence for MUPs is horseback riders have right of way first, followed by pedestrians, then cyclists. It seems that the most vulnerable get the highest deference.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

Joggers have the Right-of-Way?

Should one driving a golf cart on a specifically designated Golf Cart and Bicycle path on a main artery, like Morse Blvd., be expected to go into automobile traffic and risk being hit by a car?

Hello OMT,

I would like to preface my response by mentioning that I run 30-35 miles a week here in TV.

IMO, the answer to your question is self evident, a GC driver should not be expected to go into automobile traffic and risk being hit. Whether it is to avoid a runner, walker, pet or wild life.

However a piece of advice given to me by my father as he was teaching me to drive "Remember, as a driver, no one can take right-of-way, they can only give it", has remained with me to this day.

I suppose, if while driving, you felt you have the right-of-way then you will need to make you decisions accordingly.

Folks on foot are better prepared to avoid a potentially serious accident if they are walking/running facing traffic.

With that in mind, when I encounter a GC approaching me and I am in a diamond lane I will get out of their way if a motor vehicle is even reasonably close to the back of them. It has been my experience GC drivers are not bothered by my approaching them in a diamond lane as long as I acknowledge their approaching and they know I am yielding to them. Most GC drivers, even when I have vacated the diamond lane, will move toward the middle of the road and give a smile and wave and I do the same in return.

As a GC driver, if a runner was approaching me in the diamond lane and did not indicate any intention to "share" the space, I would stop before I put either of us in danger. In my mind the question of "who has right-of-way" is not a consideration. With that said, I would also make an attempt to share my feelings about the situation with the runner, in as positive manner as possible..:cus:

Anticipating the question of why am I running in the diamond lane when there are sidewalks? For me it comes down to the surface.... concrete is much harder on joints than blacktop. There are only two choices, concrete or blacktop in surfaces here in TV for more dedicated, long distance runners. Been running seriously for 35+ years, and now approaching 76 years old, I find I need to do what I can to extend my favorite pastime.

Finally, you mentioned specifically Morse Blvd. My own personal experience from running roads like MB, BV, 466 and 466A carries many more risks than rewards and I try to avoid those roads as much as possible. The speed difference between runners and GC/motor vehicles on those roads is just too great! The slow one will always loose when they touch!

As runner I understand where you are coming from and I think handling the situation you describe requires mature, "big-picture" actions by both parties.

Regards,
Don

PS, If I don't get out of your way fast enough, please don't run me down. I have promised our daughter we will run a 10k race together for my 100th birthday and I don't want to disappoint her..:thumbup:

[DougB]

GF?

[DAWN MARIE]

Hello OMT,

I would like to preface my response by mentioning that I run 30-35 miles a week here in TV.

Anticipating the question of why am I running in the diamond lane when there are sidewalks? For me it comes down to the surface.... concrete is much harder on joints than blacktop. There are only two choices, concrete or blacktop in surfaces here in TV for more dedicated, long distance runners. Been running seriously for 35+ years, and now approaching 76 years old, I find I need to do what I can to extend my favorite pastime.



I'm also a runner who has been running for over 30 years and run about 20 miles a week now. I also do my best to NOT run on the sidewalks for the same reason you mentioned. On occasion I get drivers in the golf carts yelling at me to "get on the sidewalk" but they have no idea what they're demanding. What's interesting is usually these golf carts are going by me at a very high rate of speed that I'm estimating is well over the 19 mph limit.

I also run against traffic unless there is a blind corner ahead of me and then I'll switch to run WITH traffic until I get past it usually around the tunnels. People have no idea how hard, hot, and difficult it may be running but yet sometimes they'll demand you move out of their way while they sit comfortably in their golf cart going by you. I really sometimes just want to say....Seriously?

I do my utmost best to be a considerate runner as an approaching cart comes my way. If there is a car falling fairly close behind them, I jump on the sidewalk so they don't have to worry about me and the car behind them. Then I jump back down. That can be hard on the knees so I try only to do it for these times. Outside of that I run close to the curb as possible to give them as much room as possible as they go by. When I do this, I'm actually not even on the blacktop but on the cement lip below the sidewalk. Sometimes that's not enough and I get choice words sent my way as they pass me. Most of the time I have to chuckle because there's nobody on the road but me and this person.

[mac9]

I have had to just come to a complete stop in the diamond lane because a walker wouldn't take one step onto the grass and there were cars coming in the traffic lane. Once I stopped, they had to move over to get by.

What do you mean by "a diamond lane?"

[DonH57]

What do you mean by "a diamond lane?"

On Morse blvd and a few other streets in TV there is a smaller lane on the right hand side going both directions. They are the golf cart lanes. they may also be used by pedestrians, bicycles, and other modes of transport. Golf carts are to stay right of the line unless they signal to safely come into the left lane to turn left just as a car would switch to the left lane to turn left. Hope I helped.

[rubicon]

The diamond lanes are not designated for runners but for golf carts and bikes and as such runners should move to safer ground.

I cannot tell you the number of times a runner coming toward me has challenged who will blink first.

I am very concerned about having to pull left into traffic. You can bet if a car strikes me that runner won't be lurking around.

My accident may in fact have a direct affect on his/her breaking a new running record.

I really don't care how hard a surface is on their legs that is not my problem its theirs to deal with and to find a sensible solution. I am concerned with my safety and that of other drivers.

IF THE LOCAL POLICE MONITOR TOTV THEN PLEASE CONSIDER ISSUING CITATION TO RUNNERS WHO PLACE PEOPLE IN DANGER BY ILLEGALLY UTLIZING THE DIAMOND LANE. IT IS TANTAMOUNT TO JAY WALKING AND SHOULD BE SUBJECT TO A FINE.

[DAWN MARIE]

Rubicon...Did you ever think about just stopping until the lone runner goes by? Two seconds. All that is necessary is to lift your foot off the pedal. That's it. Wave while you're at it. It will make our day.

There is actually enough room for both cart and runner on those lanes without the cart actually going into the car traffic. The few times I've run on Morse Blvd I've gone into the grassy area when an upcoming cart approaches but there might be a spot or two where that might be a problem. Also when a runner is putting in a lot of mileage sometimes they find themselves on the roadways because there's isn't enough golf cart paths to run on. We do our best to stay on the paths but sometimes a mile or two is needed to get ourselves onto the next path and out of major traffic. We would rather run with as little traffic as possible as that is the ideal but for various reasons that's not always doable. There isn't that many runners out there for this to be an issue.

[DAWN MARIE]

I have yet to hear of one accident caused by a runner. But I've heard of many accidents caused by golf carts GOING TOO FAST.

[Russ_Boston]

First: One poster used the term a few times Right-Away. I can only assume they meant Right-of-way? It was a good post but I was curious as to the expression used. Maybe I've been wrong all these years?

Second: Most of the streets south of 466 that have diamond lanes also have sidewalks. So when I run/walk I use the sidewalks even though I may jump into an empty diamond lane (facing traffic of course) if it is empty since the asphalt is more forgiving than concrete.

Third: On streets with no diamond lane (all my small neighborhood streets) there is very seldom enough traffic to worry about. There is plenty of room for the car/cart to move toward the center a little and give me the edge of the road. Haven't had a problem yet in 2 years.

[Chazz]

FYI, I will quote a section of Florida law, as it pertains to pedestrians:

316.130(3) states: "Where sidewalks are provided, no pedestrian shall, unless required by other circumstances, walk along and upon the portion of a roadway paved for vehicular traffic."

This suggests that it is OK to walk in the diamond lanes on Morse north of 466, but not on the south side.

[Chazz]

The diamond lanes are not designated for runners but for golf carts and bikes and as such runners should move to safer ground.

I cannot tell you the number of times a runner coming toward me has challenged who will blink first.

I am very concerned about having to pull left into traffic. You can bet if a car strikes me that runner won't be lurking around.

My accident may in fact have a direct affect on his/her breaking a new running record.

I really don't care how hard a surface is on their legs that is not my problem its theirs to deal with and to find a sensible solution. I am concerned with my safety and that of other drivers.

IF THE LOCAL POLICE MONITOR TOTV THEN PLEASE CONSIDER ISSUING CITATION TO RUNNERS WHO PLACE PEOPLE IN DANGER BY ILLEGALLY UTLIZING THE DIAMOND LANE. IT IS TANTAMOUNT TO JAY WALKING AND SHOULD BE SUBJECT TO A FINE.

The applicable Florida statute is 316.130(3), as I indicated in the message above this one, if there is no available sidewalk, the pedestrian may walk on the roadway. Therefore, dependent on the circumstances, it may be legal.

[DAWN MARIE]

The golf cart lanes are not part of the roadway for vehicular traffic per the law. Law enforcement go by and wave to me all the time when I'm running. They don't stop me and quote this law. I'm not in the street. I'm on the golf cart lane running alongside the sidewalk. This is unique to The Villages. I've run all over the country and never ever have had so much trouble running along the side of the road as here and we have the best lanes of all for running on. Sure we have to share with Golf Carts. That's the problem. Golf cart drivers are in a hurry and do not wish to share their portion of the road with us runners. And like I said there are NOT that many out there for this to be such an issue.

The sidewalks are for walkers. When I'm running quite often I pass by people walking on the sidewalks. Sometimes they're walking their grandkids or their dogs. For me to run on the sidewalks means to constantly go up and down to get around them not to mention it's the worse possible surface to run on. It's much easier for a golf cart to just pass me by. There's plenty of room and most of the time there are no other cars behind them for them to worry about.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

GF?

Fixed it, supposed to have been GC.....my iPhone has a mind of it's own sometimes..:laugh:

[sueandskip]

As in boating, a general rule of thumb is anything larger than you has the right of way!!!
Remember that the next time you pass a semi truck and hit the brakes ...

[sueandskip]

Whatever happened to running in your neighborhood....why the street....That makes about as much sense to me as the people who park in the street...We need a common sense law !

[sueandskip]

Courtesy has been on the down hill slide here for the past few years.
When we first arrived in the villages everyone in golf carts waved said hello
Rarely happens any more so sad

Age is the difference...That's why you always hear that the people on the older side is much nicer !!!

[DAWN MARIE]

Whatever happened to running in your neighborhood....why the street....That makes about as much sense to me as the people who park in the street...We need a common sense law !

My neighborhood has a one mile circle in both directions. The most I can do is 2 miles but even some of that will end up on O'Dell as I loop around. When I go out to do a seven mile run it's not possible unless I want to run around and around my neighborhood which would be tedious to say the least. Not to mention I run five days a week.

Most runs are out and back. If I do a six miler I go out three miles, turn around and come home. I live over by the Amelia PO. So for me I have to run over the Morse Bridge and back to get in 6 miles. If I go in the other direction I run to Captivia and back or Gators and back is another route. Most of the run is on golf cart paths but in between roads have to be used.

So back to common sense. In order for distance runners to run effectively sometimes they have no choice to run on the roads which makes the most logical sense to get the distance in.

[Russ_Boston]

Whatever happened to running in your neighborhood....why the street....That makes about as much sense to me as the people who park in the street...We need a common sense law !

If you run 5-7 miles per day that an awful lot of the same streets to run if you don't at least go down some of the semi-main roads to get to other locations.

[Russ_Boston]

Age is the difference...That's why you always hear that the people on the older side is much nicer !!!

I have many, many patients who live on the 'older side'. Believe me: Not ALWAYS nicer. :)

But in general most TV'ers are very pleasant, in or out, of the hospital.

[rubicon]

Rubicon...Did you ever think about just stopping until the lone runner goes by? Two seconds. All that is necessary is to lift your foot off the pedal. That's it. Wave while you're at it. It will make our day.

There is actually enough room for both cart and runner on those lanes without the cart actually going into the car traffic. The few times I've run on Morse Blvd I've gone into the grassy area when an upcoming cart approaches but there might be a spot or two where that might be a problem. Also when a runner is putting in a lot of mileage sometimes they find themselves on the roadways because there's isn't enough golf cart paths to run on. We do our best to stay on the paths but sometimes a mile or two is needed to get ourselves onto the next path and out of major traffic. We would rather run with as little traffic as possible as that is the ideal but for various reasons that's not always doable. There isn't that many runners out there for this to be an issue.

Hi Dawn Marie: Have you ever heard of a vehicle being rear ended because someone other vehicle stopped abruptly.

Have you ever studied risks? Because if you have the only method of preventing an accident is to remove or reduce those elements that may create an accident.

Someone could store gas in their garage for years but suddenly one day the gas ignites. Some one charges their electric cart every day for years but suddenly a fire erupts.

Runners desire to use the diamond lanes causes drivers to react and no one cares until a jogger is run down or a golf cart pulls into the path of a vehicle behind him.

I studies risk all my career and people just don't fully appreciate how in an instant their lives are altered forever.

Personal Best Regards:

[eremite06]

As in boating, a general rule of thumb is anything larger than you has the right of way!!!

No.......sailboats have the right of way, regardless of size. Yeah, if you have something huge bearing down on you, rule of thumb comes into play.

[Chazz]

Sadly, from reading the many posts in this thread, it appears to me that the only certain solution is an impractical one that will never happen. Several lanes on each main road designated for each type of user (i.e automotive, golf cart, bicycle, walker, and jogger). That would be five lanes in each direction. Completely nuts! So, we are left with the need to make do with what we have, which entails equally good doses of common sense and courtesy. Let's not get hurt, nor hurt anyone else out there.

[DAWN MARIE]

Hi Dawn Marie: Have you ever heard of a vehicle being rear ended because someone other vehicle stopped abruptly.

Have you ever studied risks? Because if you have the only method of preventing an accident is to remove or reduce those elements that may create an accident.

Runners desire to use the diamond lanes causes drivers to react and no one cares until a jogger is run down or a golf cart pulls into the path of a vehicle behind him.


Let's face it. There are all sorts of risks involving driving. You could have a seizure or a heart attack as well. So you might as well not drive to be on the safe side.

Runners running against traffic cuts down any major risk involved. Like I've already said...I've not heard of one runner causing an accident in the Villages but have heard of many accidents caused by speeding golf carts. So why don't we eliminate the greater risk by getting rid of the carts? If that's your argument, that makes the most common sense doesn't it?

A cart is NOT going to pull into the path of a vehicle when I'm running. I've already stated that when I see a cart coming towards me with a car on its tail I jump on the sidewalk to give the cart plenty of room (even tho I really don't have to..I'm not that big) so the driver doesn't have to watch me and the car behind him at the same time. Besides all that, a cart does have another option if a car is bearing down on him from behind with an upcoming runner. He can take his foot off the pedal and stay right in the lane until either the runner or car passes...like I said...two seconds.

I've run all over the country and have coached at the HS level for years back home. Again, I've NEVER heard of one instance even when a HS kid caused an accident. I think the problem here really..to be honest...is the fact that golf cart drivers come face to face with an upcoming runner unlike when you're driving a car and they just don't like it. Before, in a car, it didn't matter because the runner was on the side of the road and not in the road so it didn't matter. Now, both cart driver and runner have to share the same territory and the cart drivers are incensed about it.

[zonerboy]

Some serious runners I have encountered seem to exhibit a rather strange attitude.
And that attitude is this: There is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that is more important than a runner being able to maintain their chosen pace, never having to break stride, slow down, or (heaven forbid) stop until their run is complete. Stop signs, traffic lights, etc. do not apply to them. Other pedestrians, bicycles, golf carts, other motorized vehicles all should yield to these runners.
So if you are driving your golf cart down the diamond lane and encounter one of these types coming right at you, do not expect them to get out of the way. They are way more important than you are. After all they are engaged in being healthy. And you are not.
Be aware.

[DAWN MARIE]

At zonerboy...this is a double sided argument. Funny...I think the same about the cart drivers.

[tommy steam]

If I see a runner coming towards me I slow way down to make sure they can pass me safely. I am defensive driver and I would not try to stare down a runner to see who blinks first. I'm driving a 4000 lb car or a 700 lb golf cart and common sense tells me the walker or runner is going to be a lot worse off than me if I hit them.

[Russ_Boston]

Some serious runners I have encountered seem to exhibit a rather strange attitude.
And that attitude is this: There is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that is more important than a runner being able to maintain their chosen pace, never having to break stride, slow down, or (heaven forbid) stop until their run is complete. Stop signs, traffic lights, etc. do not apply to them. Other pedestrians, bicycles, golf carts, other motorized vehicles all should yield to these runners.
So if you are driving your golf cart down the diamond lane and encounter one of these types coming right at you, do not expect them to get out of the way. They are way more important than you are. After all they are engaged in being healthy. And you are not.
Be aware.

I'm pretty sure you've never been a serious runner with those opinions. I ran every day 365 (ok maybe 350) for over 10 years. Not sure what your metrics are for SERIOUS. But I ran 5-6 miles every day in under 8 min pace. Not going to get into the Olympics but not too shabby for fitness runners. Not once did I take my safety into play to keep my pace. If no one is coming I will slow at a stop sign instead of stop but I have stopped if there are other vehicles in the area.

I know you said SOME serious runners but not the ones I ran with. Only once did I have a close call and that was the CAR running the stop sign while I had none. But even then I half expect it so I was able to halt enough to avoid being hit.

The opinions on this post are very similar to those about bike riding. Those that have done it with one opinion and those that have never done it thinking the bikers are always at fault. If you don't believe me go back and read the numerous threads we've had on runners and bikers. I've seen it for over 6 years on this site.

[Chazz]

I'm pretty sure you've never been a serious runner with those opinions. I ran every day 365 (ok maybe 350) for over 10 years. Not sure what your metrics are for SERIOUS. But I ran 5-6 miles every day in under 8 min pace. Not going to get into the Olympics but not too shabby for fitness runners. Not once did I take my safety into play to keep my pace. If no one is coming I will slow at a stop sign instead of stop but I have stopped if there are other vehicles in the area.

I know you said SOME serious runners but not the ones I ran with. Only once did I have a close call and that was the CAR running the stop sign while I had none. But even then I half expect it so I was able to halt enough to avoid being hit.

The opinions on this post are very similar to those about bike riding. Those that have done it with one opinion and those that have never done it thinking the bikers are always at fault. If you don't believe me go back and read the numerous threads we've had on runners and bikers. I've seen it for over 6 years on this site.

You can include golf cart drivers in with that jogger/bicycle group, too. It seems like whoever is at the top of the food chain (metaphorically speaking) has little to no tolerance of the lower life forms that occupy space on the roads that some think they own.

[Mama C]

As a walker i walk towards traffic--- if there is no car traffic i do not move into the grass-- if there is car traffic and a cart is also coming i stop and move into the grass--smile and wave!

[DAWN MARIE]

If I see a runner coming towards me I slow way down to make sure they can pass me safely. I am defensive driver and I would not try to stare down a runner to see who blinks first. I'm driving a 4000 lb car or a 700 lb golf cart and common sense tells me the walker or runner is going to be a lot worse off than me if I hit them.

and all the runners out there thank you!!!

I am also a defensive runner especially looking out for those cars coming out of side streets onto a main drag taking a quick right. As I'm running, coming up on their right I try to see the driver's face. Quite often they look left and without looking right just peel out. I've had my hand on the hood of a car doing this more than once only to see the look of horror on their faces knowing they did bad.

[DAWN MARIE]

Some serious runners I have encountered seem to exhibit a rather strange attitude.
And that attitude is this: There is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that is more important than a runner being able to maintain their chosen pace, never having to break stride, slow down, or (heaven forbid) stop until their run is complete. Stop signs, traffic lights, etc. do not apply to them. Other pedestrians, bicycles, golf carts, other motorized vehicles all should yield to these runners.


Can you tell me what law states that pedestrians have to stop at stop signs and red lights?

Actually when running around the Villages red lights are not even an issue. The only light I can think of around here is on Canal Street and I've only run in that direct a couple of times in six years.

[Chazz]

Can you tell me what law states that pedestrians have to stop at stop signs and red lights?...

Florida statute 316.130(2).

[terrieb]

I am a power walker and walk where there are sidewalks and if there are no sidewalks, I walk in the cart path either on the streets or the designated multi-purpose paths throughout the Villages. Most times I walk against traffic when in the streets and if I see a cart coming, I walk on the grass until the cart passes, then I continue back on the cart path in the street. On the multipurpose paths, I walk with traffic because there are many of the paths where walking against traffic is not safe as there are areas covered with trees, bushes and blind areas to cart drivers where you cannot jump out of the way of the cart coming towards you. I try to be a sensible, courteous walker, but unfortunately a lot of times, I am not extended the same courtesy from golf cart drivers. It's a matter of being a defensive biker, walker, jogger, skater, cart driver and all should be courteous to each other. It's called "share the road".

[Chazz]

...It's a matter of being a defensive biker, walker, jogger, skater, cart driver and all should be courteous to each other. It's called "share the road".

Amen!:BigApplause:

[DAWN MARIE]

Thanks Chazz for the statute. I guess that makes sense to be safe and I do for the most part follow this rule. Although I don't actually always stop at the stop signs on the paths so much as slow down, look both ways and continue. Running is diff than being in a car/cart because you have plenty of time as you come to the sign on foot to see the traffic pattern. If there's traffic coming I come to a complete stop and start to walk out to the middle of the path as the car comes to the gate. Usually that's where the signs are. I've also stopped at red lights (be foolish to run thru them with cars crossing in front of me) but will continue as soon as I see an opportunity even it's still red or I'll take a turn, go a few feet, and then cross to continue where I was headed. I'm very cautious and always defer to the cars/carts in these situations. But lights are not a problem here since I seldom come to one on my designated routes.

But usually that's not the issue. The issue is on the straight-a-ways with very rude and obnoxious cart drivers who don't want you sharing the space with them for whatever reason. They can see me coming from afar and are plenty ready for me when they get to me. It's not the norm, thankfully but it happens enough. I have to laugh because I'd estimate at least 75% of them are whizzing by me in a speeding golf cart.

[rubicon]

Let's face it. There are all sorts of risks involving driving. You could have a seizure or a heart attack as well. So you might as well not drive to be on the safe side.

Runners running against traffic cuts down any major risk involved. Like I've already said...I've not heard of one runner causing an accident in the Villages but have heard of many accidents caused by speeding golf carts. So why don't we eliminate the greater risk by getting rid of the carts? If that's your argument, that makes the most common sense doesn't it?

A cart is NOT going to pull into the path of a vehicle when I'm running. I've already stated that when I see a cart coming towards me with a car on its tail I jump on the sidewalk to give the cart plenty of room (even tho I really don't have to..I'm not that big) so the driver doesn't have to watch me and the car behind him at the same time. Besides all that, a cart does have another option if a car is bearing down on him from behind with an upcoming runner. He can take his foot off the pedal and stay right in the lane until either the runner or car passes...like I said...two seconds.

I've run all over the country and have coached at the HS level for years back home. Again, I've NEVER heard of one instance even when a HS kid caused an accident. I think the problem here really..to be honest...is the fact that golf cart drivers come face to face with an upcoming runner unlike when you're driving a car and they just don't like it. Before, in a car, it didn't matter because the runner was on the side of the road and not in the road so it didn't matter. Now, both cart driver and runner have to share the same territory and the cart drivers are incensed about it.

Dawn Marie:

Of course there is risk in all we do that is why many corporations have risk managers. The purpose to is deal with risk. The above-stated comments by you imply that the only method to treat risk is to retain it. Certainly you would be correct sometimes such as catastrophic events.

However, we are discussing risk that can be treated or dealt with. The fact is we will never see designated lanes for different users, ergo the multi-modal paths. The decision to build them I'm sure was purely economic not only from the standpoint of actually building them but from the basic premise that the Developer did not want to give up any more property than was necessary (i.e he wanted to build more houses) and would not do a tradeoff.

You have referenced at least three times accidents created as a result of speeding golf carts. I agree they are a problem. and like the diamond lane dilemma they can be dealt with in order to reduce risk and increase safety.

The critical point in this thread keeps getting buried. IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER IT IS CAR TO CAR, CART TO CART ,CYCLIST TO CAR/CART. JOGGER TO CART, ET AL WE HAVE SOME HERE IN THE VILLAGES BRAZEN ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT ITS THE OTHER GUY THAT IS GOING TO MOVE OUT OF THE WAY. (ZONERBOY) WAS SPOT ON.

It seems logical to me that the diamond lanes were designed for golf carts and not runners.

it also seems that if you are receiving waves from LEO's when you are interfering with golf cart traffic then these guys are not doing their job.

[Chazz]

...It seems logical to me that the diamond lanes were designed for golf carts and not runners....

They were, also, designed for bicycles, and so marked.

[DAWN MARIE]

Dawn Marie:



The critical point in this thread keeps getting buried. IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER IT IS CAR TO CAR, CART TO CART ,CYCLIST TO CAR/CART. JOGGER TO CART, ET AL WE HAVE SOME HERE IN THE VILLAGES BRAZEN ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT ITS THE OTHER GUY THAT IS GOING TO MOVE OUT OF THE WAY. (ZONERBOY) WAS SPOT ON.

It seems logical to me that the diamond lanes were designed for golf carts and not runners.

it also seems that if you are receiving waves from LEO's when you are interfering with golf cart traffic then these guys are not doing their job.

I agree that there are "SOME" as you said here that think the other guy is going to move but I've already stated when there's an issue I jump up on the sidewalk when the cart approaches. I usually do this when the cart followed by a car is about 50 feet away so they can see me make the effort. I usually get a grateful wave when doing so.

It also seems logical to me tho, that these lanes are PERFECT for us runners to run on. We're not interfering with sidewalk walkers nor car traffic. Yes, an occasional golf cart goes by us but this is where "share the road" should come into play on these VERY few times a runner comes towards a cart. I'd be interested how many runners in one week you actually come into contact with who are running on these diamond lanes. I rarely see one and bet I could count on on hand in six years how many I've seen in my path that I had to go around.

[Band1t]

GF?I am a runner who hopefully will be moving to TV soon. I read all of the chatter on runners in TV trying to educate myself before we get there. I enjoyed your post and several of the others. I will try to take all of these, on both sides of the issue, in to considerations when I'm on the roads. By the way, are there any running clubs in TV? Saftey in numberes. Tks

[CFrance]

No.......sailboats have the right of way, regardless of size. Yeah, if you have something huge bearing down on you, rule of thumb comes into play.

Sailboats do not have the right of way over freighters. Nor do they have the right of way over larger vessels with less maneuverability room, such as in a channel. In general, the vessel with the least maneuverability has the right of way according to the Rules and Regs of the US Coast Guard.

Nor do they have the right of way over commercial fishing vessels. We sailed on Lake MI for 25 years and are quite familiar with the right of way rules. We have had to "dip" many a freighter and get out of the way of ferries in a channel.

Sorry, off topic...

[Doctommft]

Southoftheborder: Thanks for your explanation of why some folks will run in the diamond lane where there is a side walk. [ Anticipating the question of why am I running in the diamond lane when there are sidewalks? For me it comes down to the surface].

Driving my GC on upper Odell, a petite lady jogger approaching me refused to yield. This set in motion a different set of decisions then I expected. I had to stay in lane because of a vehicle in back of me, and consequently had to slow and squeeze by the lady who now was as far to my right as she could. I believe that my bumper would make a greater impact on her than the concrete sidewalk. This came down to HER decision which I believe was a bad one. She could have benefited from your Dad's advice. He was right-on.

[OBXNana]

I was taught when approaching someone, to move to your right. If the cart moves to their right and the runner to their right, the problem's solved.

[ilovetv]

Some serious runners I have encountered seem to exhibit a rather strange attitude.

And that attitude is this: There is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that is more important than a runner being able to maintain their chosen pace, never having to break stride, slow down, or (heaven forbid) stop until their run is complete. Stop signs, traffic lights, etc. do not apply to them. Other pedestrians, bicycles, golf carts, other motorized vehicles all should yield to these runners.

So if you are driving your golf cart down the diamond lane and encounter one of these types coming right at you, do not expect them to get out of the way. They are way more important than you are. After all they are engaged in being healthy. And you are not.

Be aware.

This quoted by zonerboy is exactly the attitude we see, probably 90% of the time when coming up toward a runner in the diamond lanes. They clearly do not view approaching vehicles with the willingness to cooperate and take the precautions dawnmarie has already planned out and has in mind, and explained she uses.

The apparent attitude is that the runner thinks they have no responsibility to take precautions for their own safety.

When we were taught to drive, I can remember public service ads on t.v. and our driver's ed instructor and parents saying "Watch out for the other guy". Parents and instructors elaborated by saying "Never assume the other driver is going to obey the laws or rules of the road......Protect yourself by anticipating that they could/would do something illegal, stupid or dangerous".

To me this concept of "protect yourself" on the part of runners is what's missing here. Many will NOT step onto the grass or sidewalk when a cart approaching cannot swerve out to the left to go around them because of cars/trucks beside them, and they cannot just slam on the brakes and come to a dead halt causing a 10-cart pile-up!

[cquick]

The diamond lanes are not designated for runners but for golf carts and bikes and as such runners should move to safer ground.

.

you must be discussing Morse Blvd. north of 466. There are no sidewalks in The Villages. You must realize that runners and walkers have no choice except the roads.

[ilovetv]

you must be discussing Morse Blvd. north of 466. There are no sidewalks in The Villages. You must realize that runners and walkers have no choice except the roads.

Correction for people who've not been here: There are sidewalks all the way on Canal Street from Lake Sumter Landing southward to the border of 466-A. And there are sidewalks on O'Dell Circle going from Buena Vista gate eastward to Morse nearing Havana Country Club. And there are sidewalks in many other streets.

[LndLocked]

Correction for people who've not been here: There are sidewalks all the way on Canal Street from Lake Sumter Landing southward to the border of 466-A. And there are sidewalks on O'Dell Circle going from Buena Vista gate eastward to Morse nearing Havana Country Club. And there are sidewalks in many other streets.

Cquick was speaking about the area of TV .... NORTH of 466.

[perrjojo]

Here we go again. As Rodney King once said ". Why can't we just all get along?" Honestly, in
the big scheme of life, is this REALLY a problem? Death, disease, war, petulance, etc, etc...get a grip folks.

[rubicon]

South of 466 was built with sidewalks. Diamond lanes were built for golf carts and bikes, not joggers, cars or motorcycles.

Diamond lanes have a solid white lane for a reason. Granted there may be in a golf cart drivers mind a reason to cross that white line. If an accident results the police will investigate and determine fault.

Joggers in the diamond lane create an unnecessary risk and yet because of their status as pedestrians may walk (run) away from their responsibility.
A golf cart driver can either stop and perhaps because it will be an abrupt stop get rear ended or cross the white line into traffic and risk being hit by a car. consider the number of cars that accelerate to get past a golf cart where the diamond lane ends and merge is required.

I am dead set against joggers in diamond lanes but the reality here is that something tragic accident has to occur until the authorities will act..and in that they are remiss

[HMLRHT1]

Having the right of way or being in the right can get you killed. An example is pedestrians have the right of way when in a crosswalk, but if a car hits you in the crosswalk your dead. No protection, except you had the right of way. Not much physical protection is it?

[travelguy]

so, use the sidewalks where they are available. in other words stay off the roads when there are sidewalks.

[DAWN MARIE]

I have been running here for six years along with my husband. I have yet to hear of one accident involving a runner and a cart or car. I've heard of car to car accidents, car to cart accidents, cart to cart accidents, even bicycles with cars and carts. And not to mention the solo cart, car or bike accident.

Why does everyone want to pick on the joggers who are usually the most agile and fit people out there?

[mickey100]

... Diamond lanes were built for golf carts and bikes, not joggers, cars or motorcycles…..

Is there a statute stating that, or is that your opinion?

In any event, I understand the stress that concrete sidewalks put on one's knees. My runner friends all prefer to run on the asphalt as it is easier on their bodies. if a runner doesn't move over when I come upon them in my cart, I just use my mirrors to check the traffic, and move out into traffic to go around the jogger when it is appropriate. I have never found it to be a big deal. In fact, I can't remember the last time I had to go around a jogger, I encounter them so rarely. It isn't like there are thousands of them clogging up our streets and recreational trails. :shrug:

[Challenger]

[QUOTE=mickey100;805316]Is there a statute stating that, or is that your opinion?

Florida 316.130(3) where provided , pedestrians must use sidewalks.

[cquick]

Cquick was speaking about the area of TV .... NORTH of 466.

Yes, I was, and I should have said there aren't enough sidewalks.....sorry for the confusion.

[LndLocked]

[QUOTE=mickey100;805316]Is there a statute stating that, or is that your opinion?

Florida 316.130(3) where provided , pedestrians must use sidewalks.

and once again, I must point out that in the entire TV north of 466 the total amount of sidewalk is one short section (perhaps 1/4 mile in length) along Mulberry Ln between BVB and Belle Meade Circle.

This thread is yet another in a long history of tempest in a tea pot threads that are so amazingly common on TOTV.

[DAWN MARIE]

Is there a statute stating that, or is that your opinion?

In any event, I understand the stress that concrete sidewalks put on one's knees. My runner friends all prefer to run on the asphalt as it is easier on their bodies. if a runner doesn't move over when I come upon them in my cart, I just use my mirrors to check the traffic, and move out into traffic to go around the jogger when it is appropriate. I have never found it to be a big deal. In fact, I can't remember the last time I had to go around a jogger, I encounter them so rarely. It isn't like there are thousands of them clogging up our streets and recreational trails. :shrug:

EXACTLY Mickey!! I always try to move over as much as I can even hopping onto the sidewalk if there's a car following close behind a cart. If there's more than two carts in a row I do the same. I hate to jump up and down the sidewalks so I do so only when necessary.

[NotGolfer]

I know this thread is about joggers...that said....I was on the diamond path (next to a sidewalk) when I met a 'walker' coming towards me in the path and not on the sidewalk. I couldn't move because of traffic so slowed down but do you think he got up on the sidewalk? Nope! He preceeded PLUS yelled at me as we passed one another. So we'll see ALL sorts of scenarios won't we??

[mickey100]

I know this thread is about joggers...that said....I was on the diamond path (next to a sidewalk) when I met a 'walker' coming towards me in the path and not on the sidewalk. I couldn't move because of traffic so slowed down but do you think he got up on the sidewalk? Nope! He preceeded PLUS yelled at me as we passed one another. So we'll see ALL sorts of scenarios won't we??

Yes we do see all sorts. That person certainly doesn't sound very courteous. It think it is up to both sides to be considerate to the other person, as much as possible.

[Cantwaittoarrive]

Some serious runners I have encountered seem to exhibit a rather strange attitude.
And that attitude is this: There is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that is more important than a runner being able to maintain their chosen pace, never having to break stride, slow down, or (heaven forbid) stop until their run is complete. Stop signs, traffic lights, etc. do not apply to them. Other pedestrians, bicycles, golf carts, other motorized vehicles all should yield to these runners.
So if you are driving your golf cart down the diamond lane and encounter one of these types coming right at you, do not expect them to get out of the way. They are way more important than you are. After all they are engaged in being healthy. And you are not.
Be aware.

As a "serious runner" I'm afraid I could say the same about many cart drivers who drive as if they are the only one that has the right to be on the road/ path. I can also say the same of many cyclist or car drivers. It's not the method of movement rather the mover that causes the issue. For those of you that don't believe a walker / runner has the right of way hit one and see what happens when you are sued

[Chief X]

Another serious runner here, having run all around the Villages area for the past three years. Being a reasonable man, I agree that everyone should be mindful and courteous to others using the streets around here. As stated above, and to those who don't believe it, see what happens when you strike a pedestrian. I was hit about two years ago and like the police sergeant told the motorist, who was adamant that I was at fault, "I'll tell you this just once - bicyclists and pedestrians have the right of way and are not required to carry insurance. Your insurance takes care of this". Now I know what a lot of you are thinking, "bicyclists and pedestrians (don't) always have the right of way" and I won't argue this point with you.
What I do take offense to is the comment about "runners" feeling that they are of the utmost importance out there and everyone should yield to them. I can easily say the same about virtually hundreds (yes hundreds) of golf cart drivers whom apparently feel that the rules of the road do not apply to them. Everyday when I run, I can ALWAYS count numbers and numbers of golf carts rolling right through stop signs without even slowing down. Stop signs are optional for many cart drivers.
The comments regarding having to stop fast if a cart driver comes upon a runner in the cart lane "would cause a rear end pile up" tells me that many of you aren't driving properly. Rear end collisions are ALWAYS a result of following too closely. I could ask the cart drivers - where are YOU going in such a hurry?
I don't believe I have ever run on a cart path along a highway here, where there isn't ample room for a cart to pass an oncoming runner and remain in the golf cart lane, if the cart operator slows to a prudent speed. A human body (especially a runner) is only a couple of feet wide.
Use your heads, use caution, be courteous, slow down, enjoy life, nice matters.
Happy New Year!

[mickey100]

Another serious runner here, having run all around the Villages area for the past three years. Being a reasonable man, I agree that everyone should be mindful and courteous to others using the streets around here. As stated above, and to those who don't believe it, see what happens when you strike a pedestrian. I was hit about two years ago and like the police sergeant told the motorist, who was adamant that I was at fault, "I'll tell you this just once - bicyclists and pedestrians have the right of way and are not required to carry insurance. Your insurance takes care of this". Now I know what a lot of you are thinking, "bicyclists and pedestrians (don't) always have the right of way" and I won't argue this point with you.
What I do take offense to is the comment about "runners" feeling that they are of the utmost importance out there and everyone should yield to them. I can easily say the same about virtually hundreds (yes hundreds) of golf cart drivers whom apparently feel that the rules of the road do not apply to them. Everyday when I run, I can ALWAYS count numbers and numbers of golf carts rolling right through stop signs without even slowing down. Stop signs are optional for many cart drivers.
The comments regarding having to stop fast if a cart driver comes upon a runner in the cart lane "would cause a rear end pile up" tells me that many of you aren't driving properly. Rear end collisions are ALWAYS a result of following too closely. I could ask the cart drivers - where are YOU going in such a hurry?
I don't believe I have ever run on a cart path along a highway here, where there isn't ample room for a cart to pass an oncoming runner and remain in the golf cart lane, if the cart operator slows to a prudent speed. A human body (especially a runner) is only a couple of feet wide.
Use your heads, use caution, be courteous, slow down, enjoy life, nice matters.
Happy New Year!

Well said. :bowdown:

[rubicon]

Is there a statute stating that, or is that your opinion?

In any event, I understand the stress that concrete sidewalks put on one's knees. My runner friends all prefer to run on the asphalt as it is easier on their bodies. if a runner doesn't move over when I come upon them in my cart, I just use my mirrors to check the traffic, and move out into traffic to go around the jogger when it is appropriate. I have never found it to be a big deal. In fact, I can't remember the last time I had to go around a jogger, I encounter them so rarely. It isn't like there are thousands of them clogging up our streets and recreational trails. :shrug:

Hi mickey 100 Yes, however, without even having to look it up can anyone believe that a county would construct a diamond lane for use by pedestrians, crosswalks yes, but diamond lanes .

My point is that too many people including LOE's will automatically defer to the pedestrians having the ROW ALWAYS. Yet in a court of law that is not ALWAYS.

Personal Best Regards

[CFrance]

Another serious runner here, having run all around the Villages area for the past three years. Being a reasonable man, I agree that everyone should be mindful and courteous to others using the streets around here. As stated above, and to those who don't believe it, see what happens when you strike a pedestrian. I was hit about two years ago and like the police sergeant told the motorist, who was adamant that I was at fault, "I'll tell you this just once - bicyclists and pedestrians have the right of way and are not required to carry insurance. Your insurance takes care of this". Now I know what a lot of you are thinking, "bicyclists and pedestrians (don't) always have the right of way" and I won't argue this point with you.
What I do take offense to is the comment about "runners" feeling that they are of the utmost importance out there and everyone should yield to them. I can easily say the same about virtually hundreds (yes hundreds) of golf cart drivers whom apparently feel that the rules of the road do not apply to them. Everyday when I run, I can ALWAYS count numbers and numbers of golf carts rolling right through stop signs without even slowing down. Stop signs are optional for many cart drivers.
The comments regarding having to stop fast if a cart driver comes upon a runner in the cart lane "would cause a rear end pile up" tells me that many of you aren't driving properly. Rear end collisions are ALWAYS a result of following too closely. I could ask the cart drivers - where are YOU going in such a hurry?
I don't believe I have ever run on a cart path along a highway here, where there isn't ample room for a cart to pass an oncoming runner and remain in the golf cart lane, if the cart operator slows to a prudent speed. A human body (especially a runner) is only a couple of feet wide.
Use your heads, use caution, be courteous, slow down, enjoy life, nice matters.
Happy New Year!

I don't know who that cop was, but he gave wrong information. Cyclists must follow the driving laws and can definitely be at fault. they can hit a pedestrian or car or cause an accident by running a stop sign, etc., and be at fault. If a kid/walker/jogger/oblivious person cuts across the street or darts out into the street and you hit him with your car, you will not be at fault.

Maybe your circumstances were different, but his statement is incorrect. And I'm glad you're okay.

[Chazz]

I don't know who that cop was, but he gave wrong information. Cyclists must follow the driving laws and can definitely be at fault. they can hit a pedestrian or car or cause an accident by running a stop sign, etc., and be at fault. If a kid/walker/jogger/oblivious person cuts across the street or darts out into the street and you hit him with your car, you will not be at fault.

Maybe your circumstances were different, but his statement is incorrect. And I'm glad you're okay.

You are, of course, correct. It is always possible that any person, in a vehicle, or on foot, could be at fault. Perhaps the sergeant was referring to his practical experience with the results of such accidents in a court situation. He may be suggesting that the driver will usually lose.

[Microcodeboy]

I also have been running for over 30 years and do about 30 miles a week. I would never give a cart or car driver the opportunity to hit me. I am long out of the way before they are near me. Maybe the driver is drunk... Never know... I happy to wait until they pass - my stride is regained quickly.
Just saying...

[CFrance]

I also have been running for over 30 years and do about 30 miles a week. I would never give a cart or car driver the opportunity to hit me. I am long out of the way before they are near me. Maybe the driver is drunk... Never know... I happy to wait until they pass - my stride is regained quickly.
Just saying...

Good point! It could be a distracted driver, too. I think you point out the reasoning behind giving a little to gain a lot. If everyone just stayed concerned with their own and the other's safety rather than who's in the right, these issues would go away.

[DAWN MARIE]

As a longtime runner I've learned to never take anything for granted. Today, while out running I had another incident with a car coming out from a side street onto a main road. I was running up O'Dell and this vehicle was taking a right onto O'Dell from Stillwater Trail. The driver looked left and hit the gas to turn right without looking right and was shocked to see me there.

This is very common. People DO NOT LOOK RIGHT when they take these turns. They look left and turn right WITHOUT looking a great majority of the time. As I come upon these situations I always always peer into the car to see the driver's face to make sure they see me before they turn. Today the guy was quite shocked and apologetic knowing exactly what he had done. I've never had this with the carts that I can recall.