If Washington "Redskins" name insults Indians

[Indydealmaker]

What about Boston making fun of Indians' Red Socks? Kind of disrespectful.:1rotfl:

[Russ_Boston]

What about Boston making fun of Indians' Red Socks? Kind of disrespectful.:1rotfl:

I'm guessing it's a joke - but I don't get it? The nickname has nothing to do with Indians or the Cleveland Indians or anything like that.

Boston Red Sox: Origin of the Red Sox Name, plymouth rocks, boston red sox (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Boston-Red-Sox-243/Origin-Red-Sox-Name.htm)

[Indydealmaker]

I'm guessing it's a joke - but I don't get it? The nickname has nothing to do with Indians or the Cleveland Indians or anything like that.

Boston Red Sox: Origin of the Red Sox Name, plymouth rocks, boston red sox (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Boston-Red-Sox-243/Origin-Red-Sox-Name.htm)

Redskins...RedSox...Red...Never mind. You are too serious.

[justjim]

Name should be changed to Washington red thieves.

[Lark7]

Name should be changed to Washington red thieves.:agree:

[DonH57]

Name should be changed to Washington red thieves.

Are we still talking about the football team? : )

[ilovetv]

This subject bugs me. The Redskins name pertains to the Redskin team players, not people out there in society who don't even pay attention to the game much less a team. Why do people ascribe it to themselves and say it is derogatory, racist, defamatory, etc, when they are not the ones nor the group being CALLED this term?

The Redskins players surely do not feel persecuted, victims of racism, nor defamed, when the 82 players' salaries range from $288,000 to $5,600,0000!

Shouldn't it be up to the people (players) actually called Redskins, Indians, Braves, etc.????

Washington Redskins Salaries | NFL Football Salaries and Payrolls | FOX Sports on MSN (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/washington-redskins/salary/67062?q=washington-redskins)

[billethkid]

just another exploitation by a special interest group picking fly specs outta da pepper.

Hopefully if we all ignore them, especially the media, they will go away. They serve no purpose whatsoever other than their own agenda.

btk

[Mikeod]

Reminds me of the story that the Washington Redskins announced a news conference to discuss their name change in light of negative publicity surrounding it. They decided to eliminate the "Washington" from the team name.

[Indydealmaker]

Reminds me of the story that the Washington Redskins announced a news conference to discuss their name change in light of negative publicity surrounding it. They decided to eliminate the "Washington" from the team name.

Now THAT is good!

[DonH57]

Reminds me of the story that the Washington Redskins announced a news conference to discuss their name change in light of negative publicity surrounding it. They decided to eliminate the "Washington" from the team name.

I know. I seen that somewhere. Loved it.

[Shimpy]

Reminds me of the story that the Washington Redskins announced a news conference to discuss their name change in light of negative publicity surrounding it. They decided to eliminate the "Washington" from the team name.

Now, that makes sense.

[blueash]

I don't understand why it seems difficult for some people to grasp that the continuing use of the nickname Redskin may offend people who, amazingly, aren't on the team. Even if only some Native Americans object there is no reason for a professional or college or high school.. team to offer offense to anyone when it can easily be avoided. To even suggest that the name Redskins has nothing to do with the larger question of anti-Native American racism and this nation's ugly history is amazing.

At least one can argue that the names Cleveland Indians or Atlanta Braves are somewhat neutral or positive. One cannot however suggest the cartoonish Chief Wahoo is in any way something other than a demeaning stereotype.. feather in his hair, big boney nose, eyes that never look straight ahead. It is no different than depicting a black man as a caricature of a shuffling Step 'n Fetchit.

Unless you are a member of a group which has been victimized by the group in power it may be difficult to understand and sympathize with those who simply ask that words that don't convey messages of pain and degradation be substituted for those that do. I fail to see how hurting peoples' feelings and using epithets is an appropriate topic for the humor page.

[Indydealmaker]

I don't understand why it seems difficult for some people to grasp that the continuing use of the nickname Redskin may offend people who, amazingly, aren't on the team. Even if only some Native Americans object there is no reason for a professional or college or high school.. team to offer offense to anyone when it can easily be avoided. To even suggest that the name Redskins has nothing to do with the larger question of anti-Native American racism and this nation's ugly history is amazing.

At least one can argue that the names Cleveland Indians or Atlanta Braves are somewhat neutral or positive. One cannot however suggest the cartoonish Chief Wahoo is in any way something other than a demeaning stereotype.. feather in his hair, big boney nose, eyes that never look straight ahead. It is no different than depicting a black man as a caricature of a shuffling Step 'n Fetchit.

Unless you are a member of a group which has been victimized by the group in power it may be difficult to understand and sympathize with those who simply ask that words that don't convey messages of pain and degradation be substituted for those that do. I fail to see how hurting peoples' feelings and using epithets is an appropriate topic for the humor page.

For the the same reason that calling a person Black is NOT racist. There is no intent to insult or denigrate. All of this PC stuff actually creates a racist atmosphere caused by the resentment of being called racist unfairly.

[rubicon]

The majority of native Americans do not see an issue and some find it flattering. It appears the same segment in society that appears offended by about everything is pushing this non-issue.

I long for the days before political correctness where ethic humor was viewed as inclusion vis a vis derogatory. Some people need to get a life

[Indydealmaker]

The majority of native Americans do not see an issue and some find it flattering. It appears the same segment in society that appears offended by about everything is pushing this non-issue.

I long for the days before political correctness where ethic humor was viewed as inclusion vis a vis derogatory. Some people need to get a life

:BigApplause:

[Pepperhead]

...

[onslowe]

Political correctness is a divisive current trend in this country. It's really bad when it grows into thought control. Theodore Roosevelt was right when he decried the prevalence of 'hyphenated Americans.' E pluribus unum and all that.

[BarryRX]

Redskins is a demeaning way to refer to native americans. I wonder if everyone would think this is a tempest in a teapot if we were rooting for the New York Kikes or the New Jersey Wops. What is a derogatory term for your ancestry? Now imagine how a team with that name would make you feel.

[Halle]

Redskins is a demeaning way to refer to native americans. I wonder if everyone would think this is a tempest in a teapot if we were rooting for the New York Kikes or the New Jersey Wops. What is a derogatory term for your ancestry? Now imagine how a team with that name would make you feel.

:agree::agree::agree:

I know I wouldn't be happy with a team named the Miami Spics.

[ilovetv]

Redskins is a demeaning way to refer to native americans. I wonder if everyone would think this is a tempest in a teapot if we were rooting for the New York Kikes or the New Jersey Wops. What is a derogatory term for your ancestry? Now imagine how a team with that name would make you feel.

One derogatory term for my ancestry is "Nazi". There are quite a few people nowadays who insist on politically correct language for their preferred groups, but yet they throw that term like lye on their ideological opponents to silence them and brand them as unworthy of having freedom of speech and thought.

If a team were dumb enough to call themselves "the Nazis", it would be a miserable failure in the marketplace. The reason the Indians, Braves and Redskins have not failed with these names in their marketing and ticket sales is because most Americans realize it is a term passed down thru tradition and generations of people who are PROUD of these players and the team. And thinking people know true "racism" when they see it, and this ain't it.

[BarryRX]

One derogatory term for my ancestry is "Nazi". There are quite a few people nowadays who insist on politically correct language for their preferred groups, but yet they throw that term like lye on their ideological opponents to silence them and brand them as unworthy of having freedom of speech and thought.

If a team were dumb enough to call themselves "the Nazis", it would be a miserable failure in the marketplace. The reason the Indians, Braves and Redskins have not failed with these names in their marketing and ticket sales is because most Americans realize it is a term passed down thru tradition and generations of people who are PROUD of these players and the team. And thinking people know true "racism" when they see it, and this ain't it.

It's not racism to you, but perhaps we should let those hurt and affected by the name decide. Just because those that are insulted by the name do not represent a large enough demographic to move the market doesn't make it less of a derogatory term. I can think of a bunch of terms that had been passed down through generations of people that we wouldn't even think of using today.

[Polar Bear]

It's not racism to you, but perhaps we should let those hurt and affected by the name decide. Just because those that are insulted by the name do not represent a large enough demographic to move the market doesn't make it less of a derogatory term.

Hmmm...I'm not so sure I'm certain of that. If only a very small part of a demographic is insulted, I would think that it would raise doubt about how insulting it is.

[DougB]

What about those losers, the Miami Dolphins? Calling themselves Dolphins is a disgrace and an insult to dolphins world-wide.

[blueash]

For the the same reason that calling a person Black is NOT racist. There is no intent to insult or denigrate. All of this PC stuff actually creates a racist atmosphere caused by the resentment of being called racist unfairly.

If a black person asks that you call him black not colored, not negro and you refuse you are not respecting him as an equal human. If next week he instead asks that you call him an African American and you refuse you again are not respecting him.

If your friend John decided he would rather be called Jack you would do your best to remember to call him Jack. All this "PC stuff" is called the real world by those it hurts and the pain inflicted by those who refuse to learn from the experience of those who are offended is real and tells the observer much about the decency and humanity of the refusers. If the speaker cannot be bothered to remember to call a black person whatever term he prefers it says that the black person's wishes are of no importance. That devaluing of the black person is very much intentional unless the speaker has a medical reason limiting his ability to learn and retain.

[BarryRX]

Hmmm...I'm not so sure I'm certain of that. If only a very small part of a demographic is insulted, I would think that it would raise doubt about how insulting it is.
I disagree. There are only about 3 million Native Americans in the country, and not many of those are in the Washington D.C. area where this marketplace is. Just because they are a small demographic does not remove their right to demand basic respect as a human being.

[DonH57]

Political correctness is a divisive current trend in this country. It's really bad when it grows into thought control. Theodore Roosevelt was right when he decried the prevalence of 'hyphenated Americans.' E pluribus unum and all that.

And don't forget our media for their part in stirring the pot. Political correctness is really nothing more than a tool to get americans to turn on each other. Quite frankly I for one look forward to upcoming christmas partys this year. I don't attend holiday partys.

[kbace6]

Redskins is a demeaning way to refer to native americans. I wonder if everyone would think this is a tempest in a teapot if we were rooting for the New York Kikes or the New Jersey Wops. What is a derogatory term for your ancestry? Now imagine how a team with that name would make you feel.

I couldn't care less what anyone calls me. I know who I am and where my heritage hails from. Call me a "Harp" or a "Frog" and I take no offense. In fact I am proud of my (Harp) Irish (Frog) French heritage. My wife who is 100% Indian calls me a mutt. Be proud of who you are and where you come from regardless if the word used can be or is considered derogatory. Political correctness be damned!

[kbace6]

What about Boston making fun of Indians' Red Socks? Kind of disrespectful.:1rotfl:

Now this is funny!

http://nesn.com/2013/10/jake-peavy-tells-unique-story-of-red-sox-lucky-cigar-store-indian-statue-photo/

[DonH57]

What about those losers, the Miami Dolphins? Calling themselves Dolphins is a disgrace and an insult to dolphins world-wide.

You're right. At least real dolphins would have been a little proud of them for 2 quarters of the game on sunday.

[tag460]

Why pick on The Washington Redskins when there are more than 500 teams with native-American derived names. And that doesn’t even count “Warriors,” “Savages,” “Chiefs,” or names derived from specific tribes such as “Cherokees,” “Mohawks,” or “Mohicans.
500 high schools use 'Redskins,' 'Indians,' or 'Braves' as team name - The Tell - MarketWatch (http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2013/10/11/500-high-schools-use-redskins-indians-or-braves-as-team-name/)

[bowlik]

Being a Catholic, I am very offended by the Arizona Cardinals as well as St. Louis. I also believe that Cincinnati and Philadelphia should change their nicknames from Queen city and Brotherly love, just to be more diverse. Forward!!!.

[ilovetv]

So. Are meat-packing plant workers insulted or demeaned by Green Bay calling themselves the "Packers"????? Or has the team suffered because of their name based on one of the most unglamorous jobs in the country?

I think not.

GREEN BAY PACKERS -
The name was a natural since the team was sponsored first by the Indian Packing Company and later the Acme Packing Company. Although both companies went out of business, the team prospered under the name Packers.

- See more at: Nicknames (http://www.profootballhof.com/history/nicknames.aspx#sthash.KiwXEBs1.dpuf)

[TexaninVA]

I don't understand why it seems difficult for some people to grasp that the continuing use of the nickname Redskin may offend people who, amazingly, aren't on the team. Even if only some Native Americans object there is no reason for a professional or college or high school.. team to offer offense to anyone when it can easily be avoided. To even suggest that the name Redskins has nothing to do with the larger question of anti-Native American racism and this nation's ugly history is amazing.

At least one can argue that the names Cleveland Indians or Atlanta Braves are somewhat neutral or positive. One cannot however suggest the cartoonish Chief Wahoo is in any way something other than a demeaning stereotype.. feather in his hair, big boney nose, eyes that never look straight ahead. It is no different than depicting a black man as a caricature of a shuffling Step 'n Fetchit.

Unless you are a member of a group which has been victimized by the group in power it may be difficult to understand and sympathize with those who simply ask that words that don't convey messages of pain and degradation be substituted for those that do. I fail to see how hurting peoples' feelings and using epithets is an appropriate topic for the humor page.

You need to get your empathy under control ... this is truly a non-sensical issue and if someone's offended, guess what? Too bad. This county has a whole lot of other issues to worry about ... we're broke, the economy is slipping and our leadership is inept. And someone wants to get in a wad over the name of a pro football team?

[Russ_Boston]

Redskins...RedSox...Red...Never mind. You are too serious.


Yep that's me - no sense of humor. Or maybe having to explain a joke means it's no joke? To each his own. Obviously by the nearly 3 dozens responses no one really thought the original attempt was humor. Guess I'm not alone.

[mrfixit]

Being Catholic, I am offended by the Arizona Cardinals as well as St. Louis. !!!...clipped quote..
ABSOLUTly.....it is about time we stand up for what is only right.

What about those CLEVELAND INDIANS.......

..the NERVE of then Club Owner Charles Somers......
...who in 1915 named the team The INDIANS
.....to HONOR the MEMORY of Louis Sockalexis who died the year prior.

Louis Sockalexis was a Penobscot INDIAN who had played
for the team 1897-99 when they were called the Spiders.

Mr. Sockalexis was the FIRST Minority to ever play major league baseball.

The Cleveland team is named INDIANS TO HONOR an INDIAN.:coolsmiley:
....SO.....Is it Politically Correct to call themselves the INDIANS ?:shrug:

I sure hope so...The CLEVELAND SOCKALEXIS' would be non politically correct...
...at least to those named Alexis....... "Sock Alexis" is too brutal.

[Polar Bear]

I disagree. There are only about 3 million Native Americans in the country, and not many of those are in the Washington D.C. area where this marketplace is. Just because they are a small demographic does not remove their right to demand basic respect as a human being.

You're assuming all 3 million are offended. If so, I'd say you may have a point. But I seriously doubt they are. My guess (and I don't have any facts to base this on) is that a very small percentage are.

[DougB]

The Native Americans haven't been shown respect for the last 500 years, why start now?

[Yung Dum]

The Native Americans haven't been shown respect for the last 500 years, why start now?

This is the only post on this thread that makes any sense.

[Golfingnut]

Thinking the term Redskins fits in the category on just for fun is hard for me. Unfortunately most jokes are at the expense of someone else. Comedy is made up using the actions of others missteps and shortcomings. When I was a boy there was a little girl we kids referred to as the RETARD. Even adults did not seem to find the reference offensive. Thankfully we have came a long way in the elimination of hurtful words, but sadly we still have a few left to deal with.

[Indydealmaker]

I started out to make a simple joke comparing the use of the word redskins to red sox to make the point that identifying some thing, anything by a word that describes its color is impossible to be denigrating unless there is such an intent.

When the team name was changed to Redskins it did so with the intent of honoring their coach and several of their players who were native american indians. Now because the media tells us that the term is racist, we have been instructed to toss aside our long-held beliefs and apologize for being racist.

This is no different than the media now telling us that it is wrong to consider ourselves a christian nation and that doing so offends non-christians and atheists.

To me, most of non-native americans, and most american indians the use of the word Redskins to name a team of sporting warriors is an honorable one. (a 2004 survey of indians showed that 90% were not offended by the name Redskins) and I am not going to be directed by politically correct social engineers to feel otherwise particularly when I am convinced there is, and never was, a racist intent.

[Hawss]

Httr!

[Golfingnut]

I congratulate those that use racist terms "but have no racist intent". That is certainly the right attitude but, does not negate the effect the offensive words have on the feelings of those that it hurts.

[DonH57]

I tryed to quote your post Indy by it wouldn't let me. Our media trys to be good at placing intent and malice where it didn't exist to begin with. Unfortunately there are those that just accepts what they are told and blindly comply.

[Indydealmaker]

I congratulate those that use racist terms "but have no racist intent". That is certainly the right attitude but, does not negate the effect the offensive words have on the feelings of those that it hurts.

The point is that absent the "intent to espouse that a given race is inferior" there is NO racism. There are words that are purely derogative without dispute. Then there are words that a minority have chosen to label as racist without regard for the actual use in context. The mere acknowledgement of the difference in color of a person's skin is not racist. If you believe and promote such a belief that that color difference proves an inferiority, then THAT is racism.

I have had many a conversation with my black brother-in-law as well as my hispanic son-in-law about the perceived racism in this country. They agree that most people who cry "racism" are simply attempting to profit in some fashion from the politicization thereof.

[blueash]

The point is that absent the "intent to espouse that a given race is inferior" there is NO racism. There are words that are purely derogative without dispute. Then there are words that a minority have chosen to label as racist without regard for the actual use in context. The mere acknowledgement of the difference in color of a person's skin is not racist. If you believe and promote such a belief that that color difference proves an inferiority, then THAT is racism.

I have had many a conversation with my black brother-in-law as well as my hispanic son-in-law about the perceived racism in this country. They agree that most people who cry "racism" are simply attempting to profit in some fashion from the politicization thereof.

I hate to use Wikipedia, unless of course it fits my needs. But this
seems to be a reasonable statement:

Origin and Meaning[edit]

The origin of the word "redskin" is debated. Some scholars say that the word was coined by early settlers in reference to the skin tone of Native Americans. Smithsonian Institution senior linguist and curator emeritus Ives Goddard asserts that the actual origin of the word is benign and reflects more positive aspects of early relations between Native Americans and whites. It emerged at a specific time in history among a small group of men linked by joint activities that provided the context that brought it forth.[3] That context was the need for a term that all could use in negotiating treaties during the late 18th and early 19th centuries.[4] It is later that the term became more pejorative. A linguistic analysis of books published between 1875 and 1930 show an increasingly negative context in the use of redskin, often in association with "dirty", "lying", etc.; while benign or positive usage such as "noble" redskin were used in a condescending manner.[5] The term continued in common use until the 1960s, as evidenced in Western movies, but is now largely considered a pejorative and is seldom used publicly aside from football teams. As with any term perceived to be discriminatory, different individuals may hold differing opinions of the term's appropriateness.[6

My bolding. Reference #5 refers to an analysis of how the word Redskin was used IN CONTEXT from 1875 to 1930 and it clearly was often used as a slur. I seriously doubt that either you or Mr. Snyder would greet a group of Native Americans using the term "redskin". Now if you want to talk potatoes....

I also note you have come into the 21st century in choosing to refer to your black and hispanic relatives with non-offensive terms. I'll bet that 50 years ago you would have used neither of those terms. Proving that language, even yours, changes to not give offense even if your inner feelings would have not meant to give offense had you chosen whatever term might have been ok 50 yrs ago.

[Taltarzac725]

Why I Refuse to Care About the Redskins Name Controversy | Andi Sligh (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andi-sligh/why-i-refuse-to-care-about-the-redskins-name-controversy-_b_4101418.html)

I do not remember ever hearing the word Redskin outside of football as this writer also asserts. We had various Native Americans from the Paiute tribe while I was in Junior High and High School and they were often the coolest people in the schools. Or, at least, they had that reputation.

I believe that you should ask Native Americans what they think of the term Redskin. http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/the-stream/the-stream-officialblog/2013/10/18/native-americansspeakupaboutredskinsnamecontroversy.html

[Golfingnut]

I can only speak to the name REDSKIN. To me it is very racist. If it is not to you, not sure why it would not be, but thank you for being fair and balanced to all. So, then what about my father in law who used in N WORD constantly yet swore to GOD that he was not a racist. My concern is, that maybe he was not, but, I could not embrace the concept. Help me understand this thought process. I truly wish to understand this.

[Indydealmaker]

I can only speak to the name REDSKIN. To me it is very racist. If it is not to you, not sure why it would not be, but thank you for being fair and balanced to all. So, then what about my father in law who used in N WORD constantly yet swore to GOD that he was not a racist. My concern is, that maybe he was not, but, I could not embrace the concept. Help me understand this thought process. I truly wish to understand this.

Maybe it is because in my lifetime I never heard the name redskin used in a deriding manner.

Using the Nword is generally accepted as only derogatory.

You, personally, may have a reason to consider the word redskin as being racist, but, as recent as 2004, most native americans and 89% of the rest of the population were polled as saying that they did not believe that the word was in and of itself "racist".

That does not mean you are wrong and that does not mean all of the others are wrong. It just is a difference of opinion which does nothing to support a perception that the word redskin is a slur.

In fact, the redskin warriors fought against tremendous odds to protect their lands from an invading force. They were, and are, exceedingly brave, god-fearing people.

[Golfingnut]

Maybe it is because in my lifetime I never heard the name redskin used in a deriding manner.

Using the Nword is generally accepted as only derogatory.

You, personally, may have a reason to consider the word redskin as being racist, but, as recent as 2004, most native americans and 89% of the rest of the population were polled as saying that they did not believe that the word was in and of itself "racist".

That does not mean you are wrong and that does not mean all of the others are wrong. It just is a difference of opinion which does nothing to support a perception that the word redskin is a slur.

In fact, the redskin warriors fought against tremendous odds to protect their lands from an invading force. They were, and are, exceedingly brave, god-fearing people.

I totally agree, just find it interesting how we, of otherwise similar backgrounds see it differently. I immediately see some words as racist, yet my friends and family do not. I have been called a racist because of my views about Muslims. I see them all as ignorant killers. So, I would like to see a formula to identity a racist properly. I love people of all colors, but have major fear of religious extremists of all the planets various faiths.

[DaleMN]

I don't understand why it seems difficult for some people to grasp that the continuing use of the nickname Redskin may offend people who, amazingly, aren't on the team. Even if only some Native Americans object there is no reason for a professional or college or high school.. team to offer offense to anyone when it can easily be avoided. To even suggest that the name Redskins has nothing to do with the larger question of anti-Native American racism and this nation's ugly history is amazing.

At least one can argue that the names Cleveland Indians or Atlanta Braves are somewhat neutral or positive. One cannot however suggest the cartoonish Chief Wahoo is in any way something other than a demeaning stereotype.. feather in his hair, big boney nose, eyes that never look straight ahead. It is no different than depicting a black man as a caricature of a shuffling Step 'n Fetchit.

Unless you are a member of a group which has been victimized by the group in power it may be difficult to understand and sympathize with those who simply ask that words that don't convey messages of pain and degradation be substituted for those that do. I fail to see how hurting peoples' feelings and using epithets is an appropriate topic for the humor page.

I agree with you 100%.

[Indydealmaker]

I totally agree, just find it interesting how we, of otherwise similar backgrounds see it differently. I immediately see some words as racist, yet my friends and family do not. I have been called a racist because of my views about Muslims. I see them all as ignorant killers. So, I would like to see a formula to identity a racist properly. I love people of all colors, but have major fear of religious extremists of all the planets various faiths.

It is hard to embrace people that say they want you dead. Likewise, it is hard to want to understand their viewpoint when they enslave and mutilate women.

[Golfingnut]

It is hard to embrace people that say they want you dead. Likewise, it is hard to want to understand their viewpoint when they enslave and mutilate women.

Bingo Indy. I may very well be to liberal minded, but I believe liberal is better than saying up yours hippie. My feelings have gone from the Iowa good ole boy I was raised as to the now father of two daughters and two granddaughters more gentle and thinking that, of course, females should have equal value in life. If we have the opportunity, we should lean toward equal inclusion when it comes to sex, race and social standing.

[Shimpy]

You're assuming all 3 million are offended. If so, I'd say you may have a point. But I seriously doubt they are. My guess (and I don't have any facts to base this on) is that a very small percentage are.

I would guess that a very small percentage would follow the NFL. I'd bet they also would be pulling for the Redskins.

[Golfingnut]

I would guess that a very small percentage would follow the NFL. I'd bet they also would be pulling for the Redskins.

Being kind and considerate should be a decision based on right and nothing else.

[Polar Bear]

Being kind and considerate should be a decision based on right and nothing else.

Then all we have to do is come up with a definition of "right" as it applies to the this discussion.