sand traps

[waynet]

played Havana yesterday. The absolute worst bunkers I have ever played. Better traps on $5.oo Munis. One of my partners lost a ball in the sand. Why do they insist on softening the sand? Stupid. Waste of manpower,machinery and time. Mallory today and it will be the same garbage. Hit the ball in the sand and look for your plugged ball. Yes,I have complained to anyone that will listen. Also have never got an answer to why all the churning of sand.

[jebartle]

Stay out of the traps!...giggle

[graciegirl]

Yup. Raises incentive to place them better. The game isn't EASY, you know. It is the same for everyone playing on that course that day. AND, so much easier than the original St. Andrews.


Sweetie always says, There are probably 200 courses within fifty miles of here.


But I bet Andrew B. woulda liked our courses. I read your comment. ;)

[rubicon]

Well I agree with the OP Bad sand traps cause me to fail. also bad fairways cause me to chunk or blade a ball. come to think of it tee location are the main cause for me to air ball just not enough level ground you know.
And water hazards........................................... .......

[aln]

I had the opposite happen to me in WISC once. It was a beautiful spring day but the ice wasn't off the lakes and the traps hadn't been raked all winter. Balls bouced off very hard water and rolled right through the traps.

WISCONSIN CHEESE anyone?

[fred53]

played Havana yesterday. The absolute worst bunkers I have ever played. Better traps on $5.oo Munis. One of my partners lost a ball in the sand. Why do they insist on softening the sand? Stupid. Waste of manpower,machinery and time. Mallory today and it will be the same garbage. Hit the ball in the sand and look for your plugged ball. Yes,I have complained to anyone that will listen. Also have never got an answer to why all the churning of sand.

There are ways to extricate yourself from plugged lies...I too played Havana and hit into some bunkers...a few plugged...most did not..I got out of all of them. Perhaps not as close to the pin as I'd like.

I'm about a 5hndcp and practice my sand shots. I've not idea what level you play, but if you don't practice regularly then it is expected that you might have trouble from different kinds of sand.

It is rarely the sands fault for the inability to hit a shot to get out of the hazard and it is not supposed to be easy to get out without putting the time in to learn how to do it from many conditions.

So your options are to practice, hit more accurate shots or complain.

This is not meant as a rant against those who don't practice, but in my 50 years of playing the largest segment of the golfing population don't practice and yet still expect to be able to hit difficult shot...or even easy shots consistently. It doesn't work that way...sorry.

[SoccerCoach]

I have long been an advocate of practice. C'mon, no matter what sport you choose to play, if you don't practice. . . . . it shows in your game, consistently.

[oldyeller]

played Havana yesterday. The absolute worst bunkers I have ever played. Better traps on $5.oo Munis. One of my partners lost a ball in the sand. Why do they insist on softening the sand? Stupid. Waste of manpower,machinery and time. Mallory today and it will be the same garbage. Hit the ball in the sand and look for your plugged ball. Yes,I have complained to anyone that will listen. Also have never got an answer to why all the churning of sand.

I thought the traps were good. Just what a bunker should be, fluffy sand. I guess just different strokes for different folks. Pun intended!

[rjn5656]

i don't care what kind of sand, just as long as all the holes are consistent.

[pooh]

Wayne, what type of sand traps do you like? Personally, I don't like any of them....;)

People complain when the sand is compacted, people complain when there is little sand, and now complaints about fluffy sand. Might just be confusing to those receiving the complaints....seems no matter what's done, some are still unhappy.

Personally, I like the new sand additions, looks good. Adds another challenge to a good walk, interrupted...:D

[dewilson58]

That's why I picked Florida over AZ............love the white, fluffy sand. Hate being in it, but it's my fault I am.

:a040::a040::a040::a040::a040:

[ednagrahm]

There are ways to extricate yourself from plugged lies...I too played Havana and hit into some bunkers...a few plugged...most did not..I got out of all of them. Perhaps not as close to the pin as I'd like.

I'm about a 5hndcp and practice my sand shots. I've not idea what level you play, but if you don't practice regularly then it is expected that you might have trouble from different kinds of sand.

It is rarely the sands fault for the inability to hit a shot to get out of the hazard and it is not supposed to be easy to get out without putting the time in to learn how to do it from many conditions.

So your options are to practice, hit more accurate shots or complain.

This is not meant as a rant against those who don't practice, but in my 50 years of playing the largest segment of the golfing population don't practice and yet still expect to be able to hit difficult shot...or even easy shots consistently. It doesn't work that way...sorry.

Based on what I've seen and heard over the years, a 5 Hdcp golfer can't really relate to the over 50% of all golfers whose handicaps are 18 and above. Those in the latter category do NOT practice and should not be chastised for not doing so. All TV courses where sands traps have been recently redone have too much sand, it's too soft and it's unfortunately raked to it's thickest near the upper greenside lip. You simply don't see traps in that condition on good courses that are maintained by crews that understand golf. Can't remember ever seeing a lie on a PGA or European Tour event like those that the OP is referring to. To compare the difficulty of these soft sand traps to the Old Course at St. Andrews, as someone did, is not a rational comparison to anyone who has seen, first hand, the shape and side walls of the bunkers at that course as I have during my working career as an LPGA official. Their difficulty has nothing at all to do with the consistency of the sand. Some negative comments are justified despite the fact that many responders don't seem to understand that they just might be justifiable.

[waynet]

first,thank you Edna....It seems like some of you think its OK for a ball to plug in a bunker and take a minute or two to find it. Balls are not supposed to plug in bunkers almost all the time. That is simply a bad bunker.As for my skill level,if that matters, I am a 4 handicap. I can play the game and part of the game is the skill it takes not just to get out of bunkers but to try to get it close to save par. A plugged ball takes away all the skill of a sand shot. Just get it out. I repeat the bunkers here are bad,very bad. Played Mallory today. Bunkers are terrible.

[justjim]

First, I'm not a single digit handicapper so I have problems with most of the sand traps. However, I have played golf for a number of years and I can tell good sand traps from bad and for the most part the TV sand traps fall into well below average condition traps.

Second, from being on previous private club boards, sand traps are high maintenance. So much so that the last Club where I was a member decided to eliminate about 25% of the traps as they redone the others. The course was good enough to host a LPGA Tournment.

Bottom line, currently TV golf course management is unwilling to spend the money to properly maintain the sand traps on the Championship Courses.

[Houselover]

first,thank you Edna....It seems like some of you think its OK for a ball to plug in a bunker and take a minute or two to find it. Balls are not supposed to plug in bunkers almost all the time. That is simply a bad bunker.As for my skill level,if that matters, I am a 4 handicap. I can play the game and part of the game is the skill it takes not just to get out of bunkers but to try to get it close to save par. A plugged ball takes away all the skill of a sand shot. Just get it out. I repeat the bunkers here are bad,very bad. Played Mallory today. Bunkers are terrible.

Maybe I'm missing something but if you are consistently hitting in sand traps and are a low handicap golfer and became proficient with your sand play you would be a scratch golfer. Having played with all ranges of golfers and at many courses over my career, the overwhelming choice for traps is to stay out of them but if you get into them, your chances of a successful shot from them are from the fluffy stuff and not rock hard traps..OBTW, practice helps too..

[waynet]

Houselover,I beg to differ. Soft sand that is 5 inches deep is not better than hard sand. Like others you are changing the subject. It is not about how many bunkers I hit into, it is not about my practice habits it is the condition of the bunkers in the Villages. They are awful.By the way I hit into 4 bunkers today.

[mickey100]

Soft sand that is 5 inches deep is not better than hard sand.

I agree. If balls are consistently plugging there is a problem, and its no good for the course because it will contribute to slow play. What really bugs me is when they churn the sand all the way up the sides of the bunkers, so the balls plug, but in the bottom of the bunkers there is very little sand at all, and you can't do an explosion shot because you'd hit hardpan.

[Houselover]

Houselover,I beg to differ. Soft sand that is 5 inches deep is not better than hard sand. Like others you are changing the subject. It is not about how many bunkers I hit into, it is not about my practice habits it is the condition of the bunkers in the Villages. They are awful.By the way I hit into 4 bunkers today.

Thanks for the additional info about the depth of the sand and the addl info from other posts about the raking of the sand. I agree that the raking sometimes is not what it should be. When I encounter conditions like that and others tell the people at the pro shop after playing. Does TV have a what we called at our old club a greens committee where we could voice our concerns?
Finally, upon rereading my original reply, I did stray from the original post and I apologize for making it personal..HL

[collie1228]

I agree that the sand currently being installed in TV is way to soft. Lopez and TDS are prime examples. When you step into a bunker and your feet sink-in 2-3 inches, you know getting out is going to be difficult, even if the ball is not plugged. In soft green side bunkers I no longer use my sand wedge and seem to get better results with a 9-iron or PW. From fairway bunkers, I find it impossible to use a longer club and mostly use a 7-iron.

[CraigC]

Based on what I've seen and heard over the years, a 5 Hdcp golfer can't really relate to the over 50% of all golfers whose handicaps are 18 and above. Those in the latter category do NOT practice and should not be chastised for not doing so. All TV courses where sands traps have been recently redone have too much sand, it's too soft and it's unfortunately raked to it's thickest near the upper greenside lip. You simply don't see traps in that condition on good courses that are maintained by crews that understand golf. Can't remember ever seeing a lie on a PGA or European Tour event like those that the OP is referring to. To compare the difficulty of these soft sand traps to the Old Course at St. Andrews, as someone did, is not a rational comparison to anyone who has seen, first hand, the shape and side walls of the bunkers at that course as I have during my working career as an LPGA official. Their difficulty has nothing at all to do with the consistency of the sand. Some negative comments are justified despite the fact that many responders don't seem to understand that they just might be justifiable.



You hit the nail on the head, Edna! I have seen three balls that hit on the upper greenside lip that were LOST, because the ball could not be seen at all on Villages championship courses in the last month.

Wayne is not complaining that he cannot hit the ball out of a trap, he is complaining that the sand is so soft that the ball is completely or almost completely buried. This is NOT normal. Actually, I think that the better golfers are most likely to see this phenomenon, because it is most likely to happen when the shot is hit very high and just missed clearing the trap. It won't happen to those who roll their ball into the trap.

Maybe the way to get their attention is to get a rake and start digging up the trap until the ball is found.

[waynet]

Craig,We dug up a bunker yesterday on No.1 Caroline up in the face. We found my partners golf ball and found a brand new Titleist ProV. I stopped digging at one foot deep and showed the ambassador who smiled and said "terrible aren't they".

[Tawarmbrod]

I agree that the bunkers are way to soft, in fact as a newbie here that is really the only complaint I have about the golf courses.

[jimmy D]

The problem with the Sand Bunkers (not traps) is that since they are not inside nor under roof, they are exposed to the weather and sometimes the weather plays havoc with the terrain. I would suggest to lay up short and then hit a High Pitch shot. (please fix the divot on the green) and then just 2 putt, smile and move on to the next hole. If you are continually in the Bunkers you will eventually fiqure out how to hit out from them. or don't go in them. Keep raking those Bunkers.

[golf2140]

played Havana yesterday. The absolute worst bunkers I have ever played. Better traps on $5.oo Munis. One of my partners lost a ball in the sand. Why do they insist on softening the sand? Stupid. Waste of manpower,machinery and time. Mallory today and it will be the same garbage. Hit the ball in the sand and look for your plugged ball. Yes,I have complained to anyone that will listen. Also have never got an answer to why all the churning of sand.

Played both this weekend. Not a problem :boom:

[JP]

The only complaint I have with the sand traps is when the sand gets "low" you are hitting all those little styrofoam thingies in the "bottom" of the traps. It seems like some of the traps need more sand!

[fred53]

The only complaint I have with the sand traps is when the sand gets "low" you are hitting all those little styrofoam thingies in the "bottom" of the traps. It seems like some of the traps need more sand!

and if you report the conditions and where they are they'll likely be addressed in order of importance...but they do get fixed.

Good luck to you all...practice makes for a luckier golfer...

[drcar]

first,thank you Edna....It seems like some of you think its OK for a ball to plug in a bunker and take a minute or two to find it. Balls are not supposed to plug in bunkers almost all the time. That is simply a bad bunker.As for my skill level,if that matters, I am a 4 handicap. I can play the game and part of the game is the skill it takes not just to get out of bunkers but to try to get it close to save par. A plugged ball takes away all the skill of a sand shot. Just get it out. I repeat the bunkers here are bad,very bad. Played Mallory today. Bunkers are terrible.

I am a 15 hanicap, played Havanna today shot a 78, had to play out of the sand on several shots. I thought the traps were fair and the course in great condition. People here complain if the sand is to loose, compact, too much, not enough etc. The grass is too long, too short, greens too fast, not fast enought. I have played under all conditions, and learn to adjust. If i have a problem it is people not raking. Easy solition to your issue, stay out of the sand, or play some where else. By the way lets replace the sand with water hazzards and see what happens, JUST SAYING!

[graciegirl]

I am a 15 hanicap, played Havanna today shot a 78, had to play out of the sand on several shots. I thought the traps were fair and the course in great condition. People here complain if the sand is to loose, compact, too much, not enough etc. The grass is too long, too short, greens too fast, not fast enought. I have played under all conditions, and learn to adjust. If i have a problem it is people not raking. Easy solition to your issue, stay out of the sand, or play some where else. By the way lets replace the sand with water hazzards and see what happens, JUST SAYING!



Yup. That is probably why they call them sand TRAPS. Not sand conveniences.

[michaelkir]

Some sand is soft, deep, and fluffy. Some sand is hard packed. Some rough is thick and long, some is thin and short. Some greens are quick some slow and shaggy. The course is the course. I think that's the way it is suppose to be?? Just my opinion.

[waynet]

After reading some posts it quite obvious that some of you like slow shaggy greens,soft"oatmeal" sand traps,inconsistent rough,and if I don't like those things then I should stay out of the sand,or lay up short of them,or practice more or just don't play here. I guess as long as some people think that way there will be no improvements to any of the golf courses because as one of you wrote "the course is the course". That's just unfortunate.

[TheVillageChicken]

The problem with the Sand Bunkers (not traps) is that since they are not inside nor under roof, they are exposed to the weather and sometimes the weather plays havoc with the terrain. I would suggest to lay up short and then hit a High Pitch shot. (please fix the divot on the green) and then just 2 putt, smile and move on to the next hole. If you are continually in the Bunkers you will eventually fiqure out how to hit out from them. or don't go in them. Keep raking those Bunkers.

Since we are correcting terminology, those divots on the green are called ball marks or pitch marks. I did see Mark Calcavechia take a divot on one of the double greens at St Andrews in the 1995 Open Championship. He decided to use a wedge vs attempting a super long putt.

[mulligan]

As the villages golf courses accommodate 10,000 tee times per day, and periodically fluff up the sand as it gets packed from foot traffic, it probably averages pretty good conditions. No other golf courses get the kind of traffic ours do. I figure if you can't adjust to existing conditions, perhaps bowling is your game.

[justjim]

I am a 15 hanicap, played Havanna today shot a 78, had to play out of the sand on several shots. I thought the traps were fair and the course in great condition. People here complain if the sand is to loose, compact, too much, not enough etc. The grass is too long, too short, greens too fast, not fast enought. I have played under all conditions, and learn to adjust. If i have a problem it is people not raking. Easy solition to your issue, stay out of the sand, or play some where else. By the way lets replace the sand with water hazzards and see what happens, JUST SAYING!

Congratulations on an excellent round of golf. I too find the lack of raking the traps a real problem on all Courses in TV. It's a little better on the Championship Courses but the executive's forget it!

Sand traps are high maintenance on any golf course. Everyone who has played much golf can see that the maintenance of traps in TV is minimal. However, the costs are high and a golf course, even with above average play, has a difficult time balancing the books. You can bet TV Courses have a budget and there is no plan to run a deficit!

[dewilson58]

As the villages golf courses accommodate 10,000 tee times per day, and periodically fluff up the sand as it gets packed from foot traffic, it probably averages pretty good conditions. No other golf courses get the kind of traffic ours do. I figure if you can't adjust to existing conditions, perhaps bowling is your game.

Sweet.

:eclipsee_gold_cup::eclipsee_gold_cup:

[BarryRX]

After reading some posts it quite obvious that some of you like slow shaggy greens,soft"oatmeal" sand traps,inconsistent rough,and if I don't like those things then I should stay out of the sand,or lay up short of them,or practice more or just don't play here. I guess as long as some people think that way there will be no improvements to any of the golf courses because as one of you wrote "the course is the course". That's just unfortunate.

I agree with some of what you say, but not all. I agree that I have played here when the greens were so bad that it was impossible to adjust to them. But I also think that not knowing what kind of shot I have to try from rough or a trap or a hazard is what makes golf so unique and enjoyable, and also makes me a better golfer.

[fred53]

Congratulations on an excellent round of golf. I too find the lack of raking the traps a real problem on all Courses in TV. It's a little better on the Championship Courses but the executive's forget it!

Sand traps are high maintenance on any golf course. Everyone who has played much golf can see that the maintenance of traps in TV is minimal. However, the costs are high and a golf course, even with above average play, has a difficult time balancing the books. You can bet TV Courses have a budget and there is no plan to run a deficit!

if everyone would rake them properly after entering there'd be very few problems(except after a good storm). Of course perhaps 50 percent do so and that is the problem.

[er9027]

It seems to get down to the fact that some people just don't care about others. They are probably the ones that do most of the complaining. In our golf group we all try to fix two or three ball marks on the green. Same with the traps,,rake someone elses mess. Main thing is to do it in a timely manor so you don't hold up play !! Have a GREAT DAY !:)

[nitehawk]

Based on what I've seen and heard over the years, a 5 Hdcp golfer can't really relate to the over 50% of all golfers whose handicaps are 18 and above. Those in the latter category do NOT practice and should not be chastised for not doing so. All TV courses where sands traps have been recently redone have too much sand, it's too soft and it's unfortunately raked to it's thickest near the upper greenside lip. You simply don't see traps in that condition on good courses that are maintained by crews that understand golf. Can't remember ever seeing a lie on a PGA or European Tour event like those that the OP is referring to. To compare the difficulty of these soft sand traps to the Old Course at St. Andrews, as someone did, is not a rational comparison to anyone who has seen, first hand, the shape and side walls of the bunkers at that course as I have during my working career as an LPGA official. Their difficulty has nothing at all to do with the consistency of the sand. Some negative comments are justified despite the fact that many responders don't seem to understand that they just might be justifiable.

:BigApplause:

[graciegirl]

[/COLOR]

:BigApplause:Yup. Raises incentive to place them better. The game isn't EASY, you know. It is the same for everyone playing on that course that day. AND, so much easier than the original St. Andrews.


Sweetie always says, There are probably 200 courses within fifty miles of here.


It's all relative.
http://www.keeleysblog.com/images/StAndrews/OldCourse55.jpg

·The Old Course at St Andrews -

[waynet]

played Spruce Creek yesterday. Bunkers nice and firm very playable. Unfortunately the rest of course was bad. Tees not cut,fairways long,greens very slow and bumpy. Will not go back.