Beliefs can differ even within a family

[senior citizen]

............

[Golfingnut]

I have been researching Atheism for several days now and becoming more disillusioned about faith. I keeping seeing indications of kindness and higher moral values than I would have thought.

A thought that keeps popping into my mind is that the majority of religious people I know are professing Christianity yet are far from practicing it.

[senior citizen]

...........

[graciegirl]

Beliefs can differ, even within a family that went to church every single Sunday, read their children's bible in the evening, said their prayers along with their parents and so forth (did the sacraments, etc.; went to catechism or Sunday school)...........no matter what the denomination. We even know some Jewish families whereby the sons became even more orthodox after visiting Israel.

One never knows what their free thinking highly intelligent children will choose as their path in life. One child can love a spiritual life and continue that on with their children, while the other is just too intellectual to be a believer , thus professing to be an atheist.

The latter would generally be the more scientific minded scoffer.


I’ve always wondered, if they don’t believe, why do they tell people they are sending love and "prayers" upon the death of a loved one?? Go figure.


Such as "You are in my thoughts and prayers." Especially if they never pray.........and do not believe in a higher power or deity. Who are they praying to?


Fox hole atheists always convert when they themselves come down with a grave illness. Most things invisible have to be accepted on "faith alone".

DEFINITION OF ATHEIST ................

Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief.


An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings.


An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine.


Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity.


A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.


Dictionary.com Unabridged


Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2013.




I think I understand the premise of your post, Senior.



I think the answer to why people respond in that manner when they don't pray is because they care, and that answer is a traditional one.


I know a lot of people who are not religious who are in every way ethical, kind and fair, caring, good and honest.


In this country we are allowed to believe or not to believe in God.


So...on this forum the same is true as well.


I personally dislike attacks on others who are doing no harm. There are many of the readers on this forum who are facing some pretty scary things right now. Let's just hope and wish and think and care that they will get through it alright. And let's not fight about religion. If faith in God helps them, then may they be blessed with it. I think you agree, Senior.


Last night we were watching NCIS and at the end there was a sweet interchange when the characters admonished one of the group to be kind, nice, love, give, have faith and a lot of other nice things. I liked that. A lot.

[Golfingnut]

Probably so.........and I actually know some atheists (young ones) that do not celebrate the religious side of any holiday, do not wish to baptize, etc. their children, ..........yet practice many acts of random kindness in their day to day life........without seeking thanks. In other words, they are doing these random acts of kindness in secret. Without realizing it, they truly are practicing a form of Christianity.....from what I've observed, anyway.


They just do not want to go through the formality of a set in stone religion.


Actually, they are all very kindhearted and peace loving people.


Secretly paying the restaurant bill of an elderly couple.......buying a warm coat for a homeless man.......I could go on and on. To each his own.

I am finding lots of stories on line just like you describe.

Is there a way to except Jesus Christ as the way and the light, practice the teachings of Sermon on the Mount, and yet avoid the sometimes silly stories assembled in the New Testament. There is so much about the Bible that I can't accept as truth.

[senior citizen]

............

[OBXNana]

We love when our children have different thoughts than ours. We feel we have reared free thinking individuals that have explored and found their inner voice.

I feel when someone that is a non believer says to a believer, I will pray for you, it is out of respect for the person that is having troubled times. The person saying the prayer may not feel it is heard by a higher power, but the person being prayed for is comforted. It's a gift one is giving to another.

As a graduate of a religious college I had more questions than answers. I now call myself spiritual. Who am I to judge and say what is right or wrong?

[graciegirl]

It's early in the morning and I didn't sleep well last night, wondering if our son arrived safely back in Colorado..........however, I truly do not recall attacking anyone or anyone's religion, nor fighting about such.....


I myself have a very strong faith in all things seen and unseen, things which need to be felt with the heart and soul.


I was commenting on some atheists we know......still good people who truly do practice good deeds without seeking any type of reward.


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????



PLease have some coffee, Senior, The intent of my post was to agree with you. I was disagreeing with the arguments on this forum recently about religion that hurt people. No one can win.


No jab intended. NONE.


Merry Christmas. Peace.




AGREEING WITH YOU. AND you too, G.N. I don't kid around about stuff like this. I try to be funny sometimes, but this subject isn't a light one for most of us. There are no simple, or easy answers. I don't care whether people agree with my philosophy. I do care and hope that they aren't hurting. Or feel alone. I am like most, I think.

[Golfingnut]

We love when our children have different thoughts than ours. We feel we have reared free thinking individuals that have explored and found their inner voice.

I feel when someone that is a non believer says to a believer, I will pray for you, it is out of respect for the person that is having troubled times. The person saying the prayer may not feel it is heard by a higher power, but the person being prayed for is comforted. It's a gift one is giving to another.

As a graduate of a religious college I had more questions than answers. I now call myself spiritual. Who am I to judge and say what is right or wrong?

Yea. This is one I print and keep for inspiration in times of doubt.

[Golfingnut]

PLease have some coffee, Senior, The intent of my post was to agree with you. I was disagreeing with the arguments on this forum recently about religion that hurt people. No one can win.


No jab intended. NONE.


Merry Christmas. Peace.




AGREEING WITH YOU. AND you too, G.N. I don't kid around about stuff like this. I try to be funny sometimes, but this subject isn't a light one for most of us. There are no simple, or easy answers. I don't care whether people agree with my philosophy. I do care and hope that they aren't hurting. Or feel alone. I don't know why.

Another Yea. I get misunderstood more than understood. I am going to love this thread as I am looking for answers that are just not available from people I meet that profess to being Christians. Kindness and understanding should be OWNED by people of faith. How can I not question the sincerity of those that should be showing sinners like me the path to salvation when they seem to be hateful toward their fellow man.

[senior citizen]

.............

[senior citizen]

................

[TexaninVA]

Yes agree ...atheist or not, they are really practicing Christ's Golden Rule in a manner of speaking. If they practice that, they can use whatever label they prefer to describe themselves as far as I'm concerned.

When all is said and done (just as in politics and business) it's actions and results that count ... not the pretty words or good intentions.

[Peachie]

Another Yea. I get misunderstood more than understood. I am going to love this thread as I am looking for answers that are just not available from people I meet that profess to being Christians. Kindness and understanding should be OWNED by people of faith. How can I not question the sincerity of those that should be showing sinners like me the path to salvation when they seem to be hateful toward their fellow man.

The problem with your premise that all Christians are bad and atheist are much kinder and nicer is the fact you are overlooking... Christians believe and love God but we are still HUMAN and not God. You won't find perfection on earth but we all struggle everyday to be as good of a person as we can be. To ascribe to the belief that all atheists are much nicer and kinder is hogwash. If one looks only for the bad, one will find only the bad and if they want to find only good, that is what they will find. If your mindset is that Christians are terrible, that is what you believe; that is not what you are receiving from every Christian you meet. Golfingnut, you have never received kindness and understanding from Christians?

I know of several agnostics/atheists and guess what... some of them are the salt of the earth and the others are not the nicer, kinder people that you know. I think the broad anti-Christian brush made need to be replaced.

I hope you have a special Christmas this year, Golfingnut, and may your heart find the peace it is seeking.

[Golfingnut]

The problem with your premise that all Christians are bad and atheist are much kinder and nicer is the fact you are overlooking... Christians believe and love God but we are still HUMAN and not God. You won't find perfection on earth but we all struggle everyday to be a good of a person as we can be. To ascribe to the belief that all atheists are much nicer and kinder is hogwash. If one looks only for the bad, one will find only the bad and if they want to find only good, that is what they will find. If your mindset is that Christians are terrible, that is what you believe; that is not what you are receiving from every Christian you meet. Golfingnut, you have never received kindness and understanding from Christians?

I know of several agnostics/atheists and guess what... some of them are the salt of the earth and the others are not the nicer, kinder people that you know. I think the broad anti-Christian brush made need to be replaced.

I hope you have a special Christmas this year, Golfingnut, and may your heart find the peace it is seeking.

Thank you and yes of course I have received love and kindness from Christians. You have totally misrepresented my post. I hope all read all of this thread so they can see what I really said that in now way indicated that I thought atheists were beer than Christians. That is just plain false. Are the people that wear a cross around their neck yet openly insult and berate their fellow man going to heaven while an atheist that practices only kindness toward his fellow man going to hell.

[Peachie]

I think I understand the premise of your post, Senior.



I think the answer to why people respond in that manner when they don't pray is because they care, and that answer is a traditional one.


I know a lot of people who are not religious who are in every way ethical, kind and fair, caring, good and honest.


In this country we are allowed to believe or not to believe in God.

So...on this forum the same is true as well.


I personally dislike attacks on others who are doing no harm. There are many of the readers on this forum who are facing some pretty scary things right now. Let's just hope and wish and think and care that they will get through it alright. And let's not fight about religion. If faith in God helps them, then may they be blessed with it. I think you agree, Senior.


Last night we were watching NCIS and at the end there was a sweet interchange when the characters admonished one of the group to be kind, nice, love, give, have faith and a lot of other nice things. I liked that. A lot.


I understood what you were saying, Gracie, and knew it wasn't any type of personal attack. I'm sorry it was misunderstood. I think people of Christian faith have evolved through the years and there is not the tight-minded hysteria about crossing the thresholds of other denominations.

This may be a club that those who are struggling with atheism, belief and Chrisitianity might want to establish in The Villages. I think face to face discussion would be far superior for this conversation.

[Peachie]

Thank you and yes of course I have received love and kindness from Christians. Are the people that wear a cross around their neck yet openly insult and berate their fellow man going to heaven while an atheist that practices only kindness toward his fellow man going to hell.

Golfingnut, have you met an atheist who only practices kindness toward his fellowman? You must introduce me, Christ must be walking amongst us.

Seriously now, I know there are very good and kind atheist on earth. I know they also have their weaknesses. If these atheists are living a Christ-like life I doubt that God will turn his back on them, they are honoring Christ. If the atheists are disparaging their fellowman's faith in God, they are not filled with the goodness and kindness of which you speak. I'm not God, I cannot provide you the exact answer you are seeking. :icon_wink:

[Golfingnut]

Golfingnut, have you met an atheist who only practices kindness toward his fellowman? You must introduce me, Christ must be walking amongst us.

Seriously now, I know there are very good and kind atheist on earth. I know they also have their weaknesses. If these atheists are living a Christ-like life I doubt that God will turn his back on them, they are honoring Christ. If the atheists are disparaging their fellowman's faith in God, they are not filled with the goodness and kindness of which you speak. I'm not God, I cannot provide you the exact answer you are seeking. :icon_wink:

I am most liking of this part of your post.
If these atheists are living a Christ-like life I doubt that God will turn his back on them, they are honoring Christ

I am going to see where that takes me. I would love to have a relationship with a higher power I could respect. Not all but to often, organized churches pervert that search for me. I speak of child molestation some weird practices by snake handling and so many cults that claim the living GOD as their guidance. I just can't find godliness in houses of organized religion.

[billethkid]

I am amazed at how some seem to know all about the "other" persons faith and how they practice and their intents.
Followed closely by the measuring of what constitutes "practicing" one's faith (or not).

Life really, truly must be much simpler and enjoyable for those who do not have a set of pre-determined yard sticks or pigeon holes to measure friends and aquaintences manner or methods of practicing politics, religion, or whatever.

It seems to me to be very presumtuous for some folks to think they know how others "practice" their faith or anything else that personal.

Personal opinions are not authentications.

btk

[Golfingnut]

I am amazed at how some seem to know all about the "other" persons faith and how they practice and their intents.
Followed closely by the measuring of what constitutes "practicing" one's faith (or not).

Life really, truly must be much simpler and enjoyable for those who do not have a set of pre-determined yard sticks or pigeon holes to measure friends and aquaintences manner or methods of practicing politics, religion, or whatever.

It seems to me to be very presumtuous for some folks to think they know how others "practice" their faith or anything else
that personal.
Personal opinions are not authentications.

btk
No comment

[billethkid]

I am referring to those that take the lords name in vain. Is that practicing Christianity?
Is adultery practicing Christianity?
Is berating individuals practicing Christianity?

It seems to me to be presumptuous for some folks to think they know what is in the mind of others or anything else that personal.

My post was generated having not read the last one of yours hence nothing in my commentary could have possibly been applicable from my intents.
Just so happens that mine was posted after.....it must have been in process.

And even if I had read it my posts intentions were as usual for more general consumption and application to previous posts in a given thread.

btk

[Golfingnut]

This thread has great possibilities if not turned into a personal rant. I am looking for answers I have found some already in this thread. If I have offended anyone with my questions and concerns, I apologize.

[rubicon]

A despicable atheist was M O'Hair and exuded such hate that one of her son's would have nothing to do with her. As a general statement I found more atheist I encountered to be less engaging than people of faith.

But that is my interpretation and it could be simply a confirmation bias on my part.

I guess with this topic we perhaps should say no more than a Christian believes that Jesus was the son of god, etc and that atheist are people who deny the existence of God because the number in each reaches thousands and thousands and we cannot justify reducing their behavior to certain sets.

[Golfingnut]

A despicable atheist was M O'Hair and exuded such hate that one of her son's would have nothing to do with her. As a general statement I found more atheist I encountered to be less engaging than people of faith.

But that is my interpretation and it could be simply a confirmation bias on my part.

I guess with this topic we perhaps should say no more than a Christian believes that Jesus was the son of god, etc and that atheist are people who deny the existence of God because the number in each reaches thousands and thousands and we cannot justify reducing their behavior to certain sets.

Good idea.

I guess I am looking for the perfect minister preaching the perfect religion and that may not exist. I should look for a small group of like minds that meet to have fellowship without the problems that comes with large organized religious organizations.

[zcaveman]

Why do you have to be labeled a "Christian" to be a kind and living person and do good deed for your fellow person?

Is it your opinion that if you are not a Christian, you are a Hun or a savage or something like that?

I don't think that it takes a Christian belief to be a good person. I think it is in the heart and the upbringing.

Z

[OBXNana]

Golfingnut, it's within you to find. Don't let anyone that argues their beliefs on any subject deter you from finding what lies within. Discussion and dialog is educational when personal attacks are left to other forums.

[Golfingnut]

OBXNana and Zcaveman, you both are what I am looking for in theory. I bring this up a lot that I really love Sermon on the Mount, even better than the Ten Commandments (for me). Wonderful teaching, but I also dislike so much of the other confusing mumbo jumbo in the bible. Get outta her with the Old Testament rambling.

[kittygilchrist]

Another Yea. I get misunderstood more than understood. I am going to love this thread as I am looking for answers that are just not available from people I meet that profess to being Christians. Kindness and understanding should be OWNED by people of faith. How can I not question the sincerity of those that should be showing sinners like me the path to salvation when they seem to be hateful toward their fellow man.

Totally in agreement, GN--as my Pastor says (paraphrase) most Christians do not humbly seek out every day what God might want them to do as agents of his love. and moreover, he expressed dismay that this is the state of much of the church. lukewarm, self-centered, in this world's values and..no different from anyone else...
but there are true people who are as you express. you are entirely right in your judgment, but there are exceptions, right here in River City.

anybody can listen to a sermon "from a cow pasture" near Brownwood! http:www.gracetab.org.

[Golfingnut]

Totally in agreement, GN--as my Pastor says (paraphrase) most Christians do not humbly seek out every day what God might want them to do as agents of his love. and moreover, he expressed dismay that this is the state of much of the church. lukewarm, self-centered, in this world's values and..no different from anyone else...
but there are true people who are as you express. you are entirely right in your judgment, but there are exceptions, right here in River City.

As I keep trying to say with no success is: People who talk the talk but do not walk the walk are the cause of so many fleeing from the church with no direction of where to go next.

[rubicon]

Why do you have to be labeled a "Christian" to be a kind and living person and do good deed for your fellow person?

Is it your opinion that if you are not a Christian, you are a Hun or a savage or something like that?

I don't think that it takes a Christian belief to be a good person. I think it is in the heart and the upbringing.

Z

As I stated above your post a Christian is a person who believes that Jesus was the son og God....Period Anything beyond that description is the interpretation of a holy man because it evolves from dogma to politics...meaning she says he says. I ain't going down that road too personal

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut View Post
I am referring to those that take the lords name in vain. Is that practicing Christianity?
Is adultery practicing Christianity?
Is berating individuals practicing Christianity?

It seems to me to be presumptuous for some folks to think they know what is in the mind of others or anything else that personal.

I agree...the world is full of hypocrites...we ourselves fell prey occasionally. They call it relativism when you pick and choose which parts you're going to live by and follow. It's why there are 5000 sects of Christianity. It's a shame Jesus didn't write a book. Not even a note. It sure created confusion. Most of what is found in a particular sect is guesswork, much isn't found in the Bible one way or the other. It's conjecture.

I am amazed at how some seem to know all about the "other" persons faith and how they practice and their intents.
Followed closely by the measuring of what constitutes "practicing" one's faith (or not).

Life really, truly must be much simpler and enjoyable for those who do not have a set of pre-determined yard sticks or pigeon holes to measure friends and aquaintences manner or methods of practicing politics, religion, or whatever.

It seems to me to be very presumtuous for some folks to think they know how others "practice" their faith or anything else that personal.

Personal opinions are not authentications.

btk

It IS easier to live "your" life, your way, instead of having to live how someone else tells you that you need to live. One is free, the other is not. Most of religion are personal opinions. Someone elses personal opinion.

This thread has great possibilities if not turned into a personal rant. I am looking for answers I have found some already in this thread. If I have offended anyone with my questions and concerns, I apologize.

What are you looking for answers to? The Why of it all? There are no answers...that's why there are 5000 different sects of Christianity alone. Add all the other religions of the world, each different...significantly different...and you should begin to realize that nobody has the answers. Find the happiest, most successful, most loved person you can...ask them the secret.

A despicable atheist was M O'Hair and exuded such hate that one of her son's would have nothing to do with her. As a general statement I found more atheist I encountered to be less engaging than people of faith.

But that is my interpretation and it could be simply a confirmation bias on my part.

I guess with this topic we perhaps should say no more than a Christian believes that Jesus was the son of god, etc and that atheist are people who deny the existence of God because the number in each reaches thousands and thousands and we cannot justify reducing their behavior to certain sets.

It is bias...we naturally seek similar people. "Christians" all have (should anyway), the same basic take on things...how is that engaging? There are bitter "Christians" too...

Christians are former Jews who believe the messiah came...and followed him...creating Christians. It's why you have the Jewish Old Testament and the Christian NT.

Most atheists I know vehemently deny the existence of YOUR God. "The God of Abraham". Most are really agnostic and will admit...they just don't know either way, so won't just "go along" with the believers.

Good idea.

I guess I am looking for the perfect minister preaching the perfect religion and that may not exist. I should look for a small group of like minds that meet to have fellowship without the problems that comes with large organized religious organizations.

Good luck with that. There are at least 5000 groups all looking for the same thing. Picking and choosing what, and how to interpret things written decades to centuries after Jesus died. Remember, Jesus wrote nothing. His 12 wrote nothing. Any honest Biblical scholar will admit this. Almost half the NT is the work of Paul. And he never met Jesus.

Why do you have to be labeled a "Christian" to be a kind and living person and do good deed for your fellow person?

Is it your opinion that if you are not a Christian, you are a Hun or a savage or something like that?

I don't think that it takes a Christian belief to be a good person. I think it is in the heart and the upbringing.

Z

You'd think that sometimes by how some act. All high and mighty. The golden rule isn't only a Christian thing. And it's pretty much the only rule we need. An entire society could run on that alone. Make altruism the national motto and you'd have quite a place to live.

OBXNana and Zcaveman, you both are what I am looking for in theory. I bring this up a lot that I really love Sermon on the Mount, even better than the Ten Commandments (for me). Wonderful teaching, but I also dislike so much of the other confusing mumbo jumbo in the bible. Get outta her with the Old Testament rambling.

Jesus didn't leave his speech nor any notes behind. Nobody took notes. How do you know what he said? It was written LONG after Jesus was gone.

You don't believe in God then? The OT is the God of Abraham. That's the original God that the Jews and Christians still worship. Be careful what you call mumbo jumbo! Some will take umbrage with that.

As I keep trying to say with no success is: People who talk the talk but do not walk the walk are the cause of so many fleeing from the church with no direction of where to go next.

Welcome to the real world, full of hypocrites. The church is full of dogma, that's what drives people away. I've noticed more contemporary churches are moving away from the OT.

As I stated above your post a Christian is a person who believes that Jesus was the son og God....Period Anything beyond that description is the interpretation of a holy man because it evolves from dogma to politics...meaning she says he says. I ain't going down that road too personal

You are correct. EVERYTHING read in the NT was written long after Jesus was gone. There are other books you've never heard of because they "didn't fit in". They were removed. The texts have been rewritten, "interpreted". How many Bibles are there now?

While there are a number of versions to the Bible. There are 8 primary versions found in history:

Septuagint - 250 C.E. Written in Greek

Vulgate- 400 C.E. First version of the Bible which is canonized at the Council of Carthage in 400 C.E. Written in Latin

Luther's German Bible- 1534 C.E.

King James Version- 1611 C.E. This is the most widely used versions however it has large number of errors given that none of the writers had a decent understanding of Hebrew.

Revised Standard Version- 1952 C.E. Liberal translation into American English which used the earliest possible text

New International Version- 1960's & 70's C.E. This is a conservative, contemporary English version

Jerusalem Bible- 1966 C.E. This is the first version of the Bible to be commisioned by the Catholic Church since the 400's.

New Revised Standard Version- 1990 C.E. This is the most academic and scholarly version with the most accuartely possible translations of the orginal text.

[kittygilchrist]

As I keep trying to say with no success is: People who talk the talk but do not walk the walk are the cause of so many fleeing from the church with no direction of where to go next.

truly truly true. if there were none holy who recently restored me, what could I say?
I do know a place and a church and a people who are true.

[billethkid]

addressing a point made a couple of times regarding the bible and nothing written and who took notes etal.

.....nothing different than most of all our histories, which are accepted for the most part by most of us.

Somehow the subject of religion ignites a special need for documentation/proof/need to know more.....by some.

btk

[Golfingnut]

I agree...the world is full of hypocrites...we ourselves fell prey occasionally. They call it relativism when you pick and choose which parts you're going to live by and follow. It's why there are 5000 sects of Christianity. It's a shame Jesus didn't write a book. Not even a note. It sure created confusion. Most of what is found in a particular sect is guesswork, much isn't found in the Bible one way or the other. It's conjecture.



It IS easier to live "your" life, your way, instead of having to live how someone else tells you that you need to live. One is free, the other is not. Most of religion are personal opinions. Someone elses personal opinion.



What are you looking for answers to? The Why of it all? There are no answers...that's why there are 5000 different sects of Christianity alone. Add all the other religions of the world, each different...significantly different...and you should begin to realize that nobody has the answers. Find the happiest, most successful, most loved person you can...ask them the secret.



It is bias...we naturally seek similar people. "Christians" all have (should anyway), the same basic take on things...how is that engaging? There are bitter "Christians" too...

Christians are former Jews who believe the messiah came...and followed him...creating Christians. It's why you have the Jewish Old Testament and the Christian NT.

Most atheists I know vehemently deny the existence of YOUR God. "The God of Abraham". Most are really agnostic and will admit...they just don't know either way, so won't just "go along" with the believers.



Good luck with that. There are at least 5000 groups all looking for the same thing. Picking and choosing what, and how to interpret things written decades to centuries after Jesus died. Remember, Jesus wrote nothing. His 12 wrote nothing. Any honest Biblical scholar will admit this. Almost half the NT is the work of Paul. And he never met Jesus.



You'd think that sometimes by how some act. All high and mighty. The golden rule isn't only a Christian thing. And it's pretty much the only rule we need. An entire society could run on that alone. Make altruism the national motto and you'd have quite a place to live.



Jesus didn't leave his speech nor any notes behind. Nobody took notes. How do you know what he said? It was written LONG after Jesus was gone.

You don't believe in God then? The OT is the God of Abraham. That's the original God that the Jews and Christians still worship. Be careful what you call mumbo jumbo! Some will take umbrage with that.



Welcome to the real world, full of hypocrites. The church is full of dogma, that's what drives people away. I've noticed more contemporary churches are moving away from the OT.



You are correct. EVERYTHING read in the NT was written long after Jesus was gone. There are other books you've never heard of because they "didn't fit in". They were removed. The texts have been rewritten, "interpreted". How many Bibles are there now?

While there are a number of versions to the Bible. There are 8 primary versions found in history:

Septuagint - 250 C.E. Written in Greek

Vulgate- 400 C.E. First version of the Bible which is canonized at the Council of Carthage in 400 C.E. Written in Latin

Luther's German Bible- 1534 C.E.

King James Version- 1611 C.E. This is the most widely used versions however it has large number of errors given that none of the writers had a decent understanding of Hebrew.

Revised Standard Version- 1952 C.E. Liberal translation into American English which used the earliest possible text

New International Version- 1960's & 70's C.E. This is a conservative, contemporary English version

Jerusalem Bible- 1966 C.E. This is the first version of the Bible to be commisioned by the Catholic Church since the 400's.

New Revised Standard Version- 1990 C.E. This is the most academic and scholarly version with the most accuartely possible translations of the orginal text.

Don, if you ever start a gathering by any name, please let me know when and where. Your information is without insult nor sarcasm and that is what I am searching for. You go brother.:BigApplause:

[eweissenbach]

With all due respect, I think I will look for truth and wisdom in matters of faith in places other than a message board. Though I have found much of both on this board, about many subjects, this is one on which I will take a pass. Good luck to all in their quest.

[ilovetv]

I hope many here find this as interesting and excellent food for thought as I do.....

Ravi Zacharias answers:

The Existence of God

Ravi Zacharias The Existence of God - YouTube


A Muslim Student Challenges Christianity:

A Muslim Student Challenges Ravi Zacharias - YouTube


"How do you know that Christianity is the one true worldview?"

How do you know that Christianity is the one true worldview? - YouTube

".......Dr. Zacharias is presently Senior Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford University in Oxford, England.

Dr. Zacharias has been a visiting scholar at Cambridge University, where he studied moralist philosophers and literature of the Romantic era. While at Cambridge he also authored his first book, A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism, updated and republished in 2004 by Baker as The Real Face of Atheism.

His second book, Can Man Live without God (Word, 1994), was awarded the Gold Medallion for best book in the category of doctrine and theology, and Jesus Among Other Gods (Word, 2000) was nominated for a Gold Medallion. In all, Dr. Zacharias has authored or edited over twenty books, including Walking from East to West (Zondervan, 2006), The Grand Weaver (Zondervan, 2007), The End of Reason: A Response to the New Atheists (Zondervan, 2008), and Beyond Opinion (Thomas Nelson, 2008), which includes contributions from Ravi Zacharias International Ministries’ global team.

His latest books are Why Jesus, released by FaithWords in January 2012, and Has Christianity Failed You? (Zondervan, 2010). Several of his books have been translated into Russian, Chinese, Korean, Thai, Spanish, and other languages.....

Bio: Ravi Zacharias | RZIM (http://www.rzim.org/about/ravi-zacharias/)

[DouglasMo]

Again, I say that in addition to politics, religion should not be permitted on these post/threads. it is personal belief, if one is searching, they will not find it here. All I read is condemnation of one kind of religion, which offends people of that religion. Therefore it is not a true search… it is a forum for denouncing other faiths.
I do not know why the moderators permit this.

[billethkid]

I do believe there is a free choice in which threads one CHOOSES or NOT.
Very easy to determine where one might not want to go.

Really!

[ilovetv]

Again, I say that in addition to politics, religion should not be permitted on these post/threads. it is personal belief, if one is searching, they will not find it here. All I read is condemnation of one kind of religion, which offends people of that religion. Therefore it is not a true search… it is a forum for denouncing other faiths.
I do not know why the moderators permit this.

Some of us would call it "denunciation" of human capacity to reason and debate if discussion/debate of these huge questions is prohibited.

[Barefoot]

Again, I say that in addition to politics, religion should not be permitted on these post/threads. it is personal belief, if one is searching, they will not find it here. All I read is condemnation of one kind of religion, which offends people of that religion. Therefore it is not a true search… it is a forum for denouncing other faiths.
I do not know why the moderators permit this.

Douglas, I don't agree. TOTV is a chat room where free speech prevails, people give opinions, exchange ideas, and have friendly debates. Yes, of course, religion is a personal belief. But threads like this give us all food for thought, and hopefully we learn from others' opinions.

[2BNTV]

Douglas, I don't agree. TOTV is a chat room where free speech prevails, people give opinions, exchange ideas, and have friendly debates. Yes, of course, religion is a personal belief. But threads like this give us all food for thought, and hopefully we learn from others' opinions.

:agree:

Departed friends of mine, who were thoughtful and loving people, gave their children the choice to make up their mind, as to what religion they should follow.

He was Jewish and she was Catholic. I don't know whether they believe, or not, but I do know, they were raised with love, and turned out to be good people. One is my goddaughter.

I need to call them during the holidays, and see if they are doing well.

Peace, love, and kindness are qualities, we all should ahere to. IMHO

[senior citizen]

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[senior citizen]

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[Golfingnut]

You understand.


The atheists we know can be counted on one hand, however, these are the people who would prefer to work in a soup kitchen type environment handing out plates to the needy on Thanksgiving than go through a formal Thanksgiving celebration at home.


One could say they are selfless in their need to "help others" so, yes, in that respect, they are practicing the golden rule, whether they realize it or not.


As I mentioned yesterday, others will "silently" and without fanfare, pay the bill at a restaurant for someone they think is in need of a helping hand.......or buy a warm coat for a homeless person. Brand new, not hand me down. Just a sample of things we know they have done.


Whether it is a coincidence or not, the ones we know who claim NOT to believe in any religion .....are also very scientific minded and either in the field of engineering or some other scientific type business. They do have good "hearts" even if they claim to be non believers.


Just my personal experience.

I think and hope you are right. No loving god would deny anyone doing kind acts. Doing so you are following the instructions of Jesus Christ and that alone confesses your acceptance of gods will. I think it is a mistake to take an all or none view about faith.

[senior citizen]

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[senior citizen]

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[senior citizen]

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[senior citizen]

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[Golfingnut]

This documentary made most cry, and caused the separation of beliefs between members of the same family. However, is still considered untrue by some.

Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God
2012 Film

[rubicon]

There has been much discussion concerning atheists but from my point of view how can one factually claim to be an atheist? Atheists believe that God does not exist. However that claim would require proof. An agnostic more likely fits better. As to Christians, Muslims etc they have something to point to such as the complex mechanism of this universe, earth and its inhabitants. Additionally whether through written documentation and word of mouth, or whether one believes its authenticity, we have substantially more of the world population leaning toward the belief of a higher power. For purposes of this discussion, I am not saying that belief by many makes it fact only that to any degree of certainty those with a belief outnumber those who absolutely do not believe in God, intelligent design, etc Again that is why I believe agnostic is a better fit because some can shrug their shoulders and say Ï simply do not know". ....and that is a lot different than absolutely not no way no how . Essentially at our last breath we will know or not.

As to good or bad people we are products of our environment and genes need we say more?

[donb9006]

There has been much discussion concerning atheists but from my point of view how can one factually claim to be an atheist? Atheists believe that God does not exist. However that claim would require proof. An agnostic more likely fits better. As to Christians, Muslims etc they have something to point to such as the complex mechanism of this universe, earth and its inhabitants. Additionally whether through written documentation and word of mouth, or whether one believes its authenticity, we have substantially more of the world population leaning toward the belief of a higher power. For purposes of this discussion, I am not saying that belief by many makes it fact only that to any degree of certainty those with a belief outnumber those who absolutely do not believe in God, intelligent design, etc Again that is why I believe agnostic is a better fit because some can shrug their shoulders and say Ï simply do not know". ....and that is a lot different than absolutely not no way no how . Essentially at our last breath we will know or not.

As to good or bad people we are products of our environment and genes need we say more?

We're programmed by nature to be "led" by a leader. Just as there is an alpha in animals that the other animals follow...sometimes to their death. Are we that different than the animals...?

There is no "proof" needed to claim something doesn't exist. Proof is only needed to show...SHOW...something does exist. It goes back to the talking squirrel...there are none...until one is produced.

I'm of the "I don't know" camp...because...I don't know. But I also believe you don't either.

[billethkid]

another point of vue:

The Burden of Proof (http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm)