$85,000 Average Income - Are They Kidding?

[SteveFromNY]

In the link below The Villages Daily Sun states that the AVERAGE income in TV is around $85K a year (Thanks DickY). With the recent post about minimum income, and people wondering if $4,000K per month would work, others saying they get by on $1500/month, the idea that the AVERAGE income is $85K seems utterly ridiculous. I can see it may be higher than the averages if working people who own but don't live there are factored in, and I could see TV running a little higher than FL overall as a result (but even then, plenty of places in FL are much more expensive than TV to live). But the number of $85K just seems ridiculous.

Where do you think the statistic came from? Do you think it's valid, or just something to draw advertising in and drive up rates? Do you think that many of TV'ers work? It's a mind boggling concept that TV, a mostly retirement community, would be more than 3x the national or state average incomes, where all the working people are included in the average too.


http://www.thevillagesdailysun.com/sales/DS_Rate_Card.pdf

[LG]

In the link below The Villages Daily Sun states that the AVERAGE income in TV is around $85K a year (Thanks DickY). With the recent post about minimum income, and people wondering if $4,000K per month would work, others saying they get by on $1500/month, the idea that the AVERAGE income is $85K seems utterly ridiculous. I can see it may be higher than the averages if working people who own but don't live there are factored in, and I could see TV running a little higher than FL overall as a result (but even then, plenty of places in FL are much more expensive than TV to live). But the number of $85K just seems ridiculous.

Where do you think the statistic came from? Do you think it's valid, or just something to draw advertising in and drive up rates? Do you think that many of TV'ers work? It's a mind boggling concept that TV, a mostly retirement community, would be more than 3x the national or state average incomes, where all the working people are included in the average too.


http://www.thevillagesdailysun.com/sales/DS_Rate_Card.pdf


http://www.thevillagescommercialproperty.com/graph_avg_income.htm

[MMC24]

Seems high as an average but you know what they say, "figures don't lie but lier's can figure" ???

[samhass]

Yep, I think they're kidding. I have no idea where they pull those numbers from...some anatomical place????
Where does TV obtain the data about our incomes? If 50% finance their homes, do they extrapolate the numbers on the loan apps?

[DickY]

If you have a 2 income family (it says household income) and a lot of snowbirds still working that might skew the figures upward. ??? :dontknow:

[JUREK]

my 2 cents
still working up north $85K low
when ritired in TV $85K high
:dontknow: :dontknow:

[Frangyomory]

That's a dream that Mr Morse had one night!!!!! The numbers will never be accurate unless you do it by groups; fully retired full timers; fully retired snow birds; working couples full timers; working couples snow birds; and so forth. You can't just take an average of all incomes reported on closing paperwork and call it the "average income for all residents in the Villages" because it just isn't true.

We have a nice two bedroom courtyard villa and are both fully retired. Have no other homes and live here full time and believe me, we don't take in $85k a year before taxes!!! Maybe some folks who live in Bridgeport and the $1.5million places do, but we are two people who worked hard all our lives and were glad to be able to retire with pensions. I can't help but think we are a typical couple here in the Villages.

If there were so much money down here they wouldn't be giving away $25k in furniture just to convince you to buy a home.

[jjdees]

The category in question is home buyers. How many homes are not occupied full time by the owners? The homes bought by snowbirds or occasional visitors, i.e. TV wannabees but not yet retired will inflate the earnings number. Lyle, your chart shows a comparison between 2 different categories, households and buyers.

[Kitria]

umm we know that the average is scewed..to say the least.

Did you ever think that it is ADVERTISING? Who are they trying to attract for the newer and not yet built homes? They are certainly not advertising for preowned home buyers.

But, there is something for everyone here, which is so nice. They even have things to bitch about if you are so inclined. *smiles*

[Happy Villager]

My thoughts are the average figure of $85,000 is comprised of all owners of homes in TV, retirees, workers, snowbirds etc. I also think this figure is used to attract potential commercial enterprise and not so much to convince others to buy homes here. I know there is a big push to bring in development in the Buffalo Ridge Plaza by Crossman & Co.. I also think it is a wise move for any commercial developer to come here.

[villages07]

The other nuance to recognize is that they label the Villages column on the graph as "The Villages Average Home Buyer" and don't define what that means....could be the people who have bought new homes in the past year, past 6 months, etc....all kinds of ways to spin the figures.

I agree with some prior posters that this is just a carrot to attract future commercial development. But, that's business.

[JohnN]

Maybe Arnold Palmer and Nancy Lozez are in the averages LOLOL,
I'll do my part to keep that average low.

[garsha]

We bought our house in the villages last year. We are still in CA both working waiting for our house in CA to sell. I think the way the rate card is worded, this would include us in the average household. It sounds like we are not the only ones that own TV houses that still haven't retired yet. With both of us working it would pull the average up. This really distorts what we are all looking for which is: how much does it take to live in TV. I think the 3-4 thousand a month depending on your mortgage and car payments is right in the ball park.

From the Rate Card:
85,800 Average household income (in dollars) for home buyers in The Villages

[SteveFromNY]

Good point made above about it being the Home buyer's average. That certainly narrows the field! So if it's including folks still working who are buying homes in TV before retiring then I can buy it. It implied to me when I first read it that it was the average for folks living there.

[chuckinca]

Ditto what Gersha said, $85K family income is near the poverty line in CA Bay Area. We bought in 05 for retirement next year.

[Indy-Guy]

Seems like this would make a great poll for Talk of The Villages. I don't know who sets those things up but I hope that they put one together. Perhaps also ask about a mortgage or not as well. Sure would be interesting.

Isn't it great how The Talk of The Villages builds from one thing to another.

[kerry]

:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: ??? ??? ??? ??? ???well if it takes 85,000 to live in the villages i well not beable to line with rich people i hope all the people in the villagse make 85,000 in come

[jtdraig]

;DIt's called marketing to attract Companies. Not so long ago at a Crossman Pep Talk I think they quoted a figure of $73,000. which still seems a bit high. $85000 for the whole mix might work because they probably count people still working with perhaps two incomes. But, like a wise poster said, you can make numbers do whatever you want...just ask Enron. :read:

[samhass]

Hmmmmmm, Kerry, your post seems vaguely familiar.

[jjdees]

Kind of sounds like a curry, Heh?

[samhass]

Yep, that's what it sounds like.

[Irish Rover]

I finally got to see the survey which indicated the average income of "home buyers" in TV. If I hadn't been following all of the posts on this subject, I would take it to mean all buyers not just permanent residents. I have several friends who own homes in TV but still work. Their average income is in the mid six figures. I'm sure that's what is skewing the number. Just my opinion for what it's worth. :)

[poromo]

New golf course homes in TV cost between $450K and $600K and premium homes are greater than $600K. In order to afford these homes, a resident must have at least an $85K income. There are many, many homes in this price range.

[Russ_Boston]

Let's remember how the math can skew things:

7 households make 50K
2 make 60K
5 make 75K
2 make 400K (remember it is income from work, pensions, govt. and more importantly investments)

The average is 88K but the MEDIAN is 60K.

The median is looked at more by people making business decisions that determine what type of stores to open etc.

The high numbers of a few can really skew the average.

[saratogaman]

For the 50% who do not have mortgages (I think the figure is probably higher than 50%), they have no income data. So, that sounds like their 'survey' has a margin of error of at least +/- 50%. Who would put any stock in that?

[Cliff]

Well I certainly don't fit in with the 85+ people. I'm a retired military and federal employee living on a VA disability pension, Civil Service pension and a VERY SMALL Social Security pension (due to an offset screw job). I scrimped and saved all my life and am lucky enough now to own (no mortgage) a designer home here in TV. Have not taken more than one cruise; can't afford to play the Championship Courses; try to avoid gatherings that want to collect money for kids, the poor, disabled, religions, etc, etc. I try to avoid them because I can only just get by myself and can't afford to give away money without having it affect my present standard of living. However, my wife and I do notice the affects of gasoline increases, house prices, property taxes, and the many ways in which TV has managed to increase the cost of living here. Prices also fluctuate with the arrival and departure of Snowbirds. I'm a fair golfer and still have to play the Executive Courses. I played the Priority system for the first year I was here (been here for 6+ years now) and had to drop it when I finally got wise and realized how I was being drawn into a bottomless pit for golf expenses. But, I meet with guys daily who are absolutely convinced that ANYONE should be able to afford a grand to get a VERY SMALL advantage over other people trying to get a tee time. So, there have to be a lot of very wealthy and very stupid people living in this affordable retirement community that, six years ago, was advertising that you could play championship golf here for an average of 1 dollar a hole. Things certainly have changed. I'm getting old enough now that I won't have to worry about golf prices increasing and not have to criticize the wealthy any longer for spoiling it for the rest of us on fixed incomes.

[luvnit]

Cliff, first of all let me thank you for your service to our country. :#1:
Based on what I have read so far here on this board, and I am a new member, so bear with me please. If you had lived your life up until now as someone who worked within the capitalist system, were a business man, of whatever type, you would have had a better chance of being in the 85+ group. Military families "give their all" to make it possible for these other people to be able to live, or come here to live, as they have over the years . Military families do not become rich, by any stretch of the imagination. Yet, the people that the military serves do nothing but continue to tear this country down, in many ways. My 2cents, for what is is worth. And I wish you a golf course that is reputable but much cheaper to play on, lol!!
P.S. It was good to hear a genuine opinion pertaining to TV.

[BETHPAGE BLACK]

Sounds like alot of us will never fit into the $85k income..Correctly stated, this is an average and I think there alot of people like myself who bought for retirement, not retired yet and still working..So of course right now the income is high...Wont be so later on though...Will I fit it..dont care thats where I will be!!!!!! :agree:

[Barefoot]

We own a house in TV and no-one has ever asked us how much money we make. How could they possibly have reliable information if they are only surveying the 50% who have mortgages? The $85,000 per annum figure is obviously corrupt. Perhaps the people in homes over $500,000 tend to have more mortgages and make more money.

Who cares how much money anyone makes; we all be Village people and we all be happy. :bigthumbsup:

[jmkohm]

You could check the census data if you can figure out what census tracks make up TV. Most data I find is for Lady Lake and the counties TV are in. I suspect they include a lot of non TV residents.

[SteveFromNY]

Who cares how much money anyone makes; we all be Village people and we all be happy. :bigthumbsup:



:agree:

But the original post wasn't about how much anyone makes, but about how the Sun (the developer?) used some statistical measurement to artificially fatten up the resident's wallets to the advertisers. I found it somewhat shameless, and pity the poor advertiser who thinks it's meaningful. Things went pretty far astray from the original all along the thread!

[luvnit]

Seems to be a lot of "inflation" going on there, lol!

[jmkohm]

2000 Census at

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTGeoSearchByListServlet?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U&_lang=en&_ts=209728471968

for tract 9908 (some of Sumter Landing).

Unless this a slum area I expect it would be a good sample of TV.

Population 10,316
Median Household Income $41,233
Housing Units 6,246
Avg HHold Size 1.92
Median Home Value $128,500
Median Real Estate Tax $1516

Does that sound right?

These numbers are hard to find and I expect they can be expanded, but would probably include non TV population which would skew the results.

[zcaveman]

I bought in 2001. We had about 25000 in population in TV (Lake, Sumter, Marion counties). DIvide by 1.9 is about 13157 houses. In 2003, the housing market when crazy and so did the prices of houses in TV so these numbers are very low in my thinking.

[The Great Fumar]

Its called advertising folks..............Friend of mine who works for a large bank here told me last summer that the average income of village buyers was $44,600......and it couldn't have jumped that much in one year (or could it)

[blueeagle65]

Although the data contained in the below link is a bit dated, it is 'unbiased'

http://www.city-data.com/city/The-Villages-Florida.html

Like others, I find it hard to believe that drastic a swing in less than two years.