[Golfingnut]

I said I was going to look closely at Atheism due to being disappointed with the statements I keep hearing from so many that profess being Christians vs those that do not. I am a big fan of sermon on the mount and unfortunately I see devout Christians that come up with reasons why not to apply those teachings yet my research indicates blogs on atheist views tracks closer to the teachings than does the actions of Christians.
Has man perverted the scriptures to benefit himself?
Was Jesus the son of God or just a caring intelligent Hippie?
I am at a minimum now an Agnostic.
I am leaning toward Atheism.
I would be very interested in comments from anyone that has gone through this transformation.

[Richard1366]

This type of post makes me grateful that there is a separation of church and state...

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by Richard1366

This type of post makes me grateful that there is a separation of church and state...

For now. The theists keep throwing a pick in the race, but most folks know that would create a disaster and reject them.

[onslowe]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I said I was going to look closely at Atheism due to being disappointed with the statements I keep hearing from so many that profess being Christians vs those that do not. I am a big fan of sermon on the mount and unfortunately I see devout Christians that come up with reasons why not to apply those teachings yet my research indicates blogs on atheist views tracks closer to the teachings than does the actions of Christians.
Has man perverted the scriptures to benefit himself?
Was Jesus the son of God or just a caring intelligent Hippie?
I am at a minimum now an Agnostic.
I am leaning toward Atheism.
I would be very interested in comments from anyone that has gone through this transformation.

A few thoughts come to mind after reading Golfingnut's posts on this thread, and especially the one above.

I cannot strongly enough recommend C.S. Lewis' writings. In particular, and as a former atheist, his enormously readable and clear book "Mere Christianity" would hopefully address your questions. It is not a 'preachy' book. Maybe you, as most of us, have too great expectations of those calling themselves Christians, like me. We are "imperfect but greatly favored" children of God as the Gaithers sing it. We all fall, and we all fail to live up to the ideals of the Holy Scriptures. Many who call themselves Christians are trying, as St Paul instructed, to work out their own salvation, with fear and trembling, but with the knowledge that God is with us, even though we are 'damaged goods.'

CS Lewis addressed one of your questions almost on point if not completely on point. He said Jesus is either what He said He was (is) i.e., the Son of God or He was a raving lunatic. No 'moral' nor intelligent teacher would be sane and declare Himself the Son of God, and would certainly not go around 'forgiving sins' of others unless He had the power to do so, as God, or was a lunatic. There is no real alternative. God or a nut job. Jesus spoke the truth or he was absolutely clinically crazy. I believe Jesus is one of the Three 'Persons' in God.

Lewis' book, and his other spiritual writings, greatly helped and comforted me. He was not a theologian by his own admission, only a layman in the Church of England, but what a force he was. So readable, so persuasive, so humble.

Maybe cut us some slack, even the arrogant ones and the pickers and choosers among us. It's not easy all the time. I feel good after my morning Office prayers, but then the rest of the world wakes up!

You are a thinker, GN, and it seems like me and so many of us, you are dealing with a well thought and well considered crisis of faith. I don't know the outcome nor is it my business. But I can and will pray for God's grace for you in your present quest.

[billethkid]

I am still wondering how some profess to be able to distinguish what beliefs or faith the people they meet are.

I meet and have met new people every day of my life and I don't remember one time where anybodies faith or belief came up for ANYTHING.

I personally believe way too much poetic license is used to illustrate a point. And then there is always the risk of intellectualizing a subject to the point hypothesis and anecdotes are treated as (dare I say it?) gospel!

I do not feel any loss at all not being able to state I belive this or that or not because of the race, faith or belief of anybody.

It is simple for me. I do not have any pigeon holes, or patterns or categories or politics the people I meet have to fit into to be able to evaluate who or what they are.

There is one thing that is universal....most people are good and well intended, hence I enjoy most people....no matter country of origin, race, religion or politics.

[Carl in Tampa]

Originally Posted by onslowe

A few thoughts come to mind after reading Golfingnut's posts on this thread, and especially the one above.

I cannot strongly enough recommend C.S. Lewis' writings. In particular, and as a former atheist, his enormously readable and clear book "Mere Christianity" would hopefully address your questions. It is not a 'preachy' book. Maybe you, as most of us, have too great expectations of those calling themselves Christians, like me. We are "imperfect but greatly favored" children of God as the Gaithers sing it. We all fall, and we all fail to live up to the ideals of the Holy Scriptures. Many who call themselves Christians are trying, as St Paul instructed, to work out their own salvation, with fear and trembling, but with the knowledge that God is with us, even though we are 'damaged goods.'

CS Lewis addressed one of your questions almost on point if not completely on point. He said Jesus is either what He said He was (is) i.e., the Son of God or He was a raving lunatic. No 'moral' nor intelligent teacher would be sane and declare Himself the Son of God, and would certainly not go around 'forgiving sins' of others unless He had the power to do so, as God, or was a lunatic. There is no real alternative. God or a nut job. Jesus spoke the truth or he was absolutely clinically crazy. I believe Jesus is one of the Three 'Persons' in God.

Lewis' book, and his other spiritual writings, greatly helped and comforted me. He was not a theologian by his own admission, only a layman in the Church of England, but what a force he was. So readable, so persuasive, so humble.

Maybe cut us some slack, even the arrogant ones and the pickers and choosers among us. It's not easy all the time. I feel good after my morning Office prayers, but then the rest of the world wakes up!

You are a thinker, GN, and it seems like me and so many of us, you are dealing with a well thought and well considered crisis of faith. I don't know the outcome nor is it my business. But I can and will pray for God's grace for you in your present quest.

C.S. Lewis was a great writer. One of my favorite of his books was The Screwtape Letters. I enjoyed it so much that I rationed my reading of only a certain amount each day because I wanted to spread out my enjoyment for a longer time.

The first book of Lewis' that you read should be Mere Christianity as onslowe recommends. It is a gem.

Keep the Faith.

.

[KeepingItReal]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

This thread has bounced around so much that I probably shouldn't try to even respond at all, but I'm irrestibly drawn to making a couple of remarks.

1. Jesus was neither a Socialist nor a Communist. Both terms apply to forms of government in which sharing of wealth and labor are coerced by the government. Jesus never suggested coerced sharing.

2. The original post of the thread is incorrect in implying that simply wishing "health and happiness on all regardless of their social status or the amount in their bank account" makes a person a Christian. This is not scriptural. Everyone probably can recite the correct answer, found in John 3:16.

3. Jesus' admonition to give to the poor is an individual mandate, not an instruction on how government is to be run.

4. The "Judge not..." verse in Matthew 7 does not mean you are not to have discernment about whether or not another person's behavior is right or wrong; it means it is not your place to condemn that person. Paul very plainly says you must have discernment about sinful behavior when he instructs us not to associate, or even eat, with a Christian brother who is living in sin. I Cor. 5:11.

5. "God helps those who help themselves. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and... " are secular aphorisms; they are not scriptural.

6. It was Paul, not Jesus, who said that if a man will not work, he is not to eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10.

7. Wearing a cross is no indication of a devotion to Christianity. Decades ago the secular poplulation adopted the cross as simple jewelry, attatching no religious significance to it.

8. The belief that all religious people are going to Heaven is, unfortunately, not scriptural.

9. Religion doesn't start war. Intolerant religious men start wars.

10. "Close your Bible and open your mind" sounds condescending to Christians who look to the Bible for guidance on how to live. I reject the saying.

11. It does not take "time and practice" to become a Christian. It is an instantaneous transformation when one believes.

12. The Bible does not teach that we are all the children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. John 1:12.

Well, if you've stayed with me and read this far, thanks for your time.

Carl

.

Very well said Carl. Could not find anything to not agree with..

[Golfingnut]

Thank you onslowe. I feel, unlike one, you heard me, did not judge me and most of all seem to understand where my heart is at right now. I will go back and read your post carefully, go to Amazon and order the recommended reading for my kindle and continue my research.

I just had a deep thought, (not my norm), that perhaps I should look more at ways to avoid hate, sarcasm and prejudice rather than drop a lifetime of faith. I am slow, but perhaps faith or the lack of it really has nothing to do with being Christlike or mean spirited. Maybe it is as simple as finding others with positive upbeat attitudes toward everyone else whether they be Christian or Atheist. Anyway, thanks for recommendation onslowe.

[graciegirl]

I wish there were simple answers but there are not.


I know that a meek answer turneth away wrath.


I know least said soonest mended.


I know that we can't change anyone else.


I know that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


I know that if two SENIOR people have basic political differences, they won't come to terms on ANYTHING.

[kittygilchrist]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

This thread has bounced around so much that I probably shouldn't try to even respond at all, but I'm irrestibly drawn to making a couple of remarks.

1. Jesus was neither a Socialist nor a Communist. Both terms apply to forms of government in which sharing of wealth and labor are coerced by the government. Jesus never suggested coerced sharing.

2. The original post of the thread is incorrect in implying that simply wishing "health and happiness on all regardless of their social status or the amount in their bank account" makes a person a Christian. This is not scriptural. Everyone probably can recite the correct answer, found in John 3:16.

3. Jesus' admonition to give to the poor is an individual mandate, not an instruction on how government is to be run.

4. The "Judge not..." verse in Matthew 7 does not mean you are not to have discernment about whether or not another person's behavior is right or wrong; it means it is not your place to condemn that person. Paul very plainly says you must have discernment about sinful behavior when he instructs us not to associate, or even eat, with a Christian brother who is living in sin. I Cor. 5:11.

5. "God helps those who help themselves. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and... " are secular aphorisms; they are not scriptural.

6. It was Paul, not Jesus, who said that if a man will not work, he is not to eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10.

7. Wearing a cross is no indication of a devotion to Christianity. Decades ago the secular poplulation adopted the cross as simple jewelry, attatching no religious significance to it.

8. The belief that all religious people are going to Heaven is, unfortunately, not scriptural.

9. Religion doesn't start war. Intolerant religious men start wars.

10. "Close your Bible and open your mind" sounds condescending to Christians who look to the Bible for guidance on how to live. I reject the saying.

11. It does not take "time and practice" to become a Christian. It is an instantaneous transformation when one believes.

12. The Bible does not teach that we are all the children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. John 1:12.

Well, if you've stayed with me and read this far, thanks for your time.

Carl

.

Carl, exactly. Your post brims with courage, bible knowledge, common sense and analytical thinking.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

This thread has bounced around so much that I probably shouldn't try to even respond at all, but I'm irrestibly drawn to making a couple of remarks.

1. Jesus was neither a Socialist nor a Communist. Both terms apply to forms of government in which sharing of wealth and labor are coerced by the government. Jesus never suggested coerced sharing.

2. The original post of the thread is incorrect in implying that simply wishing "health and happiness on all regardless of their social status or the amount in their bank account" makes a person a Christian. This is not scriptural. Everyone probably can recite the correct answer, found in John 3:16.

3. Jesus' admonition to give to the poor is an individual mandate, not an instruction on how government is to be run.

4. The "Judge not..." verse in Matthew 7 does not mean you are not to have discernment about whether or not another person's behavior is right or wrong; it means it is not your place to condemn that person. Paul very plainly says you must have discernment about sinful behavior when he instructs us not to associate, or even eat, with a Christian brother who is living in sin. I Cor. 5:11.

5. "God helps those who help themselves. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and... " are secular aphorisms; they are not scriptural.

6. It was Paul, not Jesus, who said that if a man will not work, he is not to eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10.

7. Wearing a cross is no indication of a devotion to Christianity. Decades ago the secular poplulation adopted the cross as simple jewelry, attatching no religious significance to it.

8. The belief that all religious people are going to Heaven is, unfortunately, not scriptural.

9. Religion doesn't start war. Intolerant religious men start wars.

10. "Close your Bible and open your mind" sounds condescending to Christians who look to the Bible for guidance on how to live. I reject the saying.

11. It does not take "time and practice" to become a Christian. It is an instantaneous transformation when one believes.

12. The Bible does not teach that we are all the children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. John 1:12.

Well, if you've stayed with me and read this far, thanks for your time.

Carl

.

Carl: I like logical thinkers

[rubicon]

My wife desired to do a Marriage Encounter Weekend (MCW) in 1973 mostly for its intent but also because our neighbors had all attended and now were engaged in activities which would be closed to us.

I had known about (MCW) for well over a year before my wife approached me in 1972 and t I old her a marriage is like a fine wine it should be enjoyed and not over analyzed.

MCW is designed to re-examine your relationships to God and to each other. In my view it was an excellent program. Communities developed following this weekend and it became readily apparent which couples over reacted you could actually see their feet leave the floor. Predictably these couples ended up divorcing.

The difficulty with Christianity is we are asked to come to it as a child but some of us can't relent.

[DAWN MARIE]

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa

This thread has bounced around so much that I probably shouldn't try to even respond at all, but I'm irrestibly drawn to making a couple of remarks.

1. Jesus was neither a Socialist nor a Communist. Both terms apply to forms of government in which sharing of wealth and labor are coerced by the government. Jesus never suggested coerced sharing.

2. The original post of the thread is incorrect in implying that simply wishing "health and happiness on all regardless of their social status or the amount in their bank account" makes a person a Christian. This is not scriptural. Everyone probably can recite the correct answer, found in John 3:16.

3. Jesus' admonition to give to the poor is an individual mandate, not an instruction on how government is to be run.

4. The "Judge not..." verse in Matthew 7 does not mean you are not to have discernment about whether or not another person's behavior is right or wrong; it means it is not your place to condemn that person. Paul very plainly says you must have discernment about sinful behavior when he instructs us not to associate, or even eat, with a Christian brother who is living in sin. I Cor. 5:11.

5. "God helps those who help themselves. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and... " are secular aphorisms; they are not scriptural.

6. It was Paul, not Jesus, who said that if a man will not work, he is not to eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10.

7. Wearing a cross is no indication of a devotion to Christianity. Decades ago the secular poplulation adopted the cross as simple jewelry, attatching no religious significance to it.

8. The belief that all religious people are going to Heaven is, unfortunately, not scriptural.

9. Religion doesn't start war. Intolerant religious men start wars.

10. "Close your Bible and open your mind" sounds condescending to Christians who look to the Bible for guidance on how to live. I reject the saying.

11. It does not take "time and practice" to become a Christian. It is an instantaneous transformation when one believes.

12. The Bible does not teach that we are all the children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. John 1:12.

Well, if you've stayed with me and read this far, thanks for your time.

Carl

.

Excellent!!! I agree 100%...because what you put down here is the absolute truth. Many are going on well versed thoughts and opinions while you just plain out spelled the truth. Many opinions but only one truth.