[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by DAVES

My two cents worth.
Far as minimum wage, we look for simple answers to a very complex issue. Choosing say 15.00 an hour. The dollar is not a fixed quantity as is say an inch. Roughly said it takes $6.00 to buy what a dollar did in ???? 1970. People working for 15.00 an hour would likely get food stamps etc. Thus they have more to spend than the $15 they earn. The past amendment is a raise over time.
Is our government predicting, installing, causing further inflation in the future? Fair-fair is in the eye of the beholder. Reality is that if labor costs go up businesses will explore if the job needs to be done and or if a machine can do it. Opportunity? We all walk past it everyday. Success, is not only seeing it but acting on what you see. We all have shoulda, coulda, mighta.

I agree highly with your last 2 sentences. I would extend that to mean that success is a matter of having properly prepared yourself. Then, you try to put your ideas to work for profit in some initial venture. Even good ideas FAIL in the marketplace - there are SO many variables! With most of these variables, you have LITTLE control over. MOST inventors fail their 1st time in the marketplace. ONLY a FEW try over and over until they succeed. Of those few, only another small % succeed in a huge manner. They get rewarded to the tune of millions of dollars - even billions. There seems to involve a lot of LUCK and LUCKY timing in the accumulation of individual wealth. Then, they FIGHT to hold onto that money AND keep it in their FAMILIES. The tax system of any country then becomes their enemy!


The US Estate tax system was DESIGNED (early on) to encourage EVERY generation to be REQUIRED to find success on its own. The US Estate tax was designed to prevent families from passing EXCESSIVE wealth forward forever to their next generations. The income tax System was MEANT to be progressive - more income you pay a greater % to the government. When families pass wealth along untaxed, the ULTIMATE result is KINGS and KINGDOMS - THE VERY problem that the early American settlers were running away from - they FEARED a return to KINGS.

Today the SUPER wealthy have made rules to suit themselves - ways to get around estate taxes - ways to avoid the higher tax brackets. The result is the formation of small kingdoms (you could call them Princedoms also). An example today would be the Koch Brothers, the family of Sheldon Adelson - the Las Vegas big hotel owner, several NYC real estate developer families, and others (some keeping low profiles). One basic principle of government is to TAX the LUCKY individuals and re-distribute (not a dirty word) some wealth from the LUCKY individuals to the less LUCKY individuals. This could be best described as social empathy and fairness. Today the GREED of the LUCKY wealthy ones overpowers their sense of social responsibility and empathy. A wealthy individual that encompasses the American ideals of social responsibility and fairness is Warren Buffet. If ALL the wealthy ONLY had his attitude - The US would be a wonderful COUNTRY. Today the wealthy have allowed their GREED to put the US into a tailspin.

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

They already overcharge you for a donut here at Dunkin Donuts anyway. It's cheaper up north, where minimum wage is higher. Don't blame costs on minimum wage. Blame it on greedy companies that know they can get whatever they charge you, because you're willing to pay it.

Was once a nearly daily DD customer, never did think the donuts were as good as KK, but we had no KK here so had to settle. But, you are right, the prices (compared to the quality of the products) no longer justifies my business. I have found that KK's do freeze VERY well.....LOL...when I am in Orlando on other errands anyway and purchase them fresh from a 24 hour store (personally don't care for the ones we get here in stores and gas stations). There is a very good non chain doughnut store in Leesburg too !

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Going My Way

Maybe because New Zealand don't have as many freeloaders or borders next to 3rd world countries, could that be it?

It may help. Good point!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by vintageogauge

The minimum wage is not intended for those who are working a full time job and raising a family and have to live on these low wages. It is for entry positions for students, part timers, or for those that are not qualified for jobs paying more, in larger companies these jobs lead to better jobs and in some cases paid college tuition. It is sad to say but there are people out there that cannot be productive enough to earn $15.00/hour. These entry and part time jobs will be reduced to the point that only those who are ambitious, skillful, and hard working will get them, the others will be paid out of the extra taxes the entry level jobs produce while they sit at home having a not so good life. When these jobs are reduced the check out lines, drive through lines, motel check in times, all will be longer and longer.

You are absolutely positively completely and entirely incorrect. Minimum wage originated to provide a living wage for sweatshop workers, who often would work 60-70 hours a week, sometimes not getting paid at all, and always not getting paid enough to provide food for their families. There was also no overtime pay, then. No breaks, and if you had to go to the bathroom too many times during your shift, they would quickly replace you with someone else who was begging for work.

Minimum wage was seen, in part, a response to the labor movement and unions forming all over the country. Eventually the federal government imposed a few more rules, and increased the minimum wage during the Great Depression.

Roosevelt implemented the first attempt at establishing a minimum wage as part of this New Deal in 1933. It took a Supreme Court decision to even determine that Congress had the power to regulate employment conditions. Until then, employers could abuse employees and their work loads however they wanted, and no one could do anything about it.

Minimum wages in 1938 only applied to certain circumstances, and it was expanded in the 1960's. By 1990, minimum wage had increased from 25 cents in 1938 to $3.80. So it took 52 YEARS to get from a quarter, to just under $4/hour.

At that point, inflation had already exceeded the buying power of minimum wage.

It took from 1990 til 2009 - another 19 years, to get to the $7.25 that it has been for the past 11 years. There are also federal regulations with regards to tipped employees, minors, and agricultural workers, so that is already covered by federal law.

Meanwhile, the cost of living and inflation has continued to rise, because (contrary to popular belief) the economy is NOT doing well at all (if it was, all those businesses would've been able to stand by during the worst of the Pandemic shut-downs and re-opened without effort).

Some states have made attempts to catch up with inflation - some have not. Florida is one of the latter. They're not even the worst offenders. But they're pretty bad. This is their opportunity to catch up with most of the rest of the country, and give people a reason to stick around EVEN in traditional low-wage jobs. It also is a good incentive to attract people looking for better careers, who know they have to start at the bottom. Why should they accept $8.56/hour as an entry-level anything, anywhere in the state of Florida, which is culturally backward, educationally sub-par, with hurricane threats in every major hub of civilization on a semi-regular basis every single year - when they can share a flat just outside Boston, or the outskirts of New York City, or the beltway around Charleston - for the same costs of living. with excellent public transportation systems (thus eliminating the need for a car), at much higher wages?

Answer: there's nothing stopping them from doing that now. And that is exactly why Florida is great for retired people - not so great for people just starting out in life and wanting to enter the job market and work their way up. People don't really move to Florida for the income opportunities, unless they're transferring from a place they've already proven themselves.

People move OUT of Florida after graduating college, to find productive and good-paying jobs in their fields, because they know they won't get bubkes here.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

I'm not retired. I still work. I'm newly transplanted down here, and I know what my grocery bills were in 2018 in Connecticut compared to what they are now in Florida. Prices here in the Villages are ridiculous. Even something as basic as a pound of ground chuck is insane. In order to get the best prices, every week, I have to go to 4 different stores, and take advantage of their rotating sales, and buy mostly store-brand. If I need a particular item that is only sold at one store, and that store charges more for everything else, that's a trip to a store for ONE item only.

Gas, time, effort, mileage on my car (or golf cart) all add up. Where I used to live in Connecticut, I could get everything I wanted at 2 different stores, each within a mile of each other. I could walk to one of them, and it was a 5-minute drive to the other. Quality foods, brand names for most items, specialty items that I usually got were also usually on sale or had coupons.

My usual weekly supermarket trip in Connecticut was $55. My usual weekly supermarket trip in Florida is $70.

Doesn't seem like much - but neither does a $1.44/hour raise from $8.56 to $10/hour. It basically covers the grocery bill increase, and the added cost of gas, time, and mileage to buy them.

And that doesn't even start until next September. The $15/hour doesn't start until September 2016 - almost 7 years from now.

By then, who knows how much it'll cost for just the basic needs in Florida?

A convincing argument. Well delivered!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Pairadocs

Was once a nearly daily DD customer, never did think the donuts were as good as KK, but we had no KK here so had to settle. But, you are right, the prices (compared to the quality of the products) no longer justifies my business. I have found that KK's do freeze VERY well.....LOL...when I am in Orlando on other errands anyway and purchase them fresh from a 24 hour store (personally don't care for the ones we get here in stores and gas stations). There is a very good non chain doughnut store in Leesburg too !

Donuts, to me, are a completely unnecessary "luxury" that I don't miss and can easily do without. And I make better coffee at home, I'll be damned if I'll pay $2.10 for a medium regular, when my morning cappuchino (which you'd probably pay $5 for at Starbucks except they don't use Cafe La Llave or Bustello or similar) only costs me around 40 cents to make.

The reason DD stays in business is because people are willing to pay to have someone else do pedestrian-quality foods at premium prices. If you can afford a $1.50 donut every week, then you can afford a $3.00 donut every other week - or learn how to make your own and have them every day.

[justjim]

Originally Posted by davephan

About 90% of the college majors have poor to low return on investment. Many people get a worthless college degree, and end up getting a low wage job that they could have obtained with no college degree.

I worked in low wage jobs for almost two decades, before going to a low cost technical college, and obtained a two year IT degree in one year. My starting wage at the IT job was double what I used to make. After about 15 years on the IT job, I was making 5 to 6 times the customer service job.

People need to invest in themselves to increase their job skills in careers that have a good return on the education investment in time and money.

In the trades, an electrician is equal to 3 carpenters. A plumber is equal to 5 carpenters. Moral of the story, become a plumber, not a carpenter, if you work in the trades.

The $15 wage is not a panacea. Target raised the wages to $15 and hour. At the same time, full time workers became part tie workers with no benefits.

Most people have it within themselves to do much more than they think that they can do. I limited my income for almost two decades, working low wage jobs. People have to acquire the job skills so that they can earn higher incomes.

With Socialism or Communism, everyone is brought down to the low level. Imagine hard working students who get A’s, are given C’s, so that all students can receive a C, even the lazy students, that are unwilling to work hard.

With all due respect I would rather have a college degree than not. Statistics show that on the average a college grad earns in a lifetime well over one million dollars more than a high school grad. 75% of all home buyers were college grads in 2016 which is the latest data I found available on a persons ability to purchase a home. It is well known that a college degree is important to having an opportunity to succeed in today’s workforce. It “gets your foot in the door” so to speak. That said, are there other ways to also succeed today? Of course, there are a number of skilled jobs requiring some additional training where an above average wage is available to be earned. And as always, the harder you work the luckier you get. Entrepreneurs who work hard and have unique ideas can be phenomenally successful in today’s business climate.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

You are absolutely positively completely and entirely incorrect. Minimum wage originated to provide a living wage for sweatshop workers, who often would work 60-70 hours a week, sometimes not getting paid at all, and always not getting paid enough to provide food for their families. There was also no overtime pay, then. No breaks, and if you had to go to the bathroom too many times during your shift, they would quickly replace you with someone else who was begging for work.

Minimum wage was seen, in part, a response to the labor movement and unions forming all over the country. Eventually the federal government imposed a few more rules, and increased the minimum wage during the Great Depression.

Roosevelt implemented the first attempt at establishing a minimum wage as part of this New Deal in 1933. It took a Supreme Court decision to even determine that Congress had the power to regulate employment conditions. Until then, employers could abuse employees and their work loads however they wanted, and no one could do anything about it.

Minimum wages in 1938 only applied to certain circumstances, and it was expanded in the 1960's. By 1990, minimum wage had increased from 25 cents in 1938 to $3.80. So it took 52 YEARS to get from a quarter, to just under $4/hour.

At that point, inflation had already exceeded the buying power of minimum wage.

It took from 1990 til 2009 - another 19 years, to get to the $7.25 that it has been for the past 11 years. There are also federal regulations with regards to tipped employees, minors, and agricultural workers, so that is already covered by federal law.

Meanwhile, the cost of living and inflation has continued to rise, because (contrary to popular belief) the economy is NOT doing well at all (if it was, all those businesses would've been able to stand by during the worst of the Pandemic shut-downs and re-opened without effort).

Some states have made attempts to catch up with inflation - some have not. Florida is one of the latter. They're not even the worst offenders. But they're pretty bad. This is their opportunity to catch up with most of the rest of the country, and give people a reason to stick around EVEN in traditional low-wage jobs. It also is a good incentive to attract people looking for better careers, who know they have to start at the bottom. Why should they accept $8.56/hour as an entry-level anything, anywhere in the state of Florida, which is culturally backward, educationally sub-par, with hurricane threats in every major hub of civilization on a semi-regular basis every single year - when they can share a flat just outside Boston, or the outskirts of New York City, or the beltway around Charleston - for the same costs of living. with excellent public transportation systems (thus eliminating the need for a car), at much higher wages?

Answer: there's nothing stopping them from doing that now. And that is exactly why Florida is great for retired people - not so great for people just starting out in life and wanting to enter the job market and work their way up. People don't really move to Florida for the income opportunities, unless they're transferring from a place they've already proven themselves.

People move OUT of Florida after graduating college, to find productive and good-paying jobs in their fields, because they know they won't get bubkes here.

WOW! ( I was told NOT to capitalize, but I could not help myself - the DEVIL made me do it). A VERY impressive History lesson. Plus seeing both the US and Florida in a realistic way. Very WOW!

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by P&WBryant

New Zealand has had a $15 minimum wage for years. And they seem somehow to manage!

Apples and oranges. Try to move to New Zealand if you have no skills and can't even speak the language.

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

New Zealand does better than the US on ALL measures of social well-being and quality of life. That is EASY to Google.

Perhaps more people will now consider retiring there (to New Zealand). They are a leading country in literacy too, so those who have always had a nagging feeling that there are many more attractive countries than the United States, will seriously consider not suffering away their best years here ? Years ago when I was really not near retirement, many near retirement at the university where I was on faculty were making plans to retire in Mexico. I believe if people made more decisions based on their own personal desires, political leanings, comfort zone, and socioeconomic preferences, we'd be a much more peaceful, homogeneous (regardless of our cultural roots, colors, or religions), and just plain happy country. But people continue to live in great stress and unhappiness, spending their lives preferring to complain and/or just living in envy of what they "could" have if only they were in --------- (fill in the blank). It's the old old "grass is greener" saying, and perhaps it IS GREENER, so why not take the initiative to go where there is the best fit for you ! I am NOT saying the old "if you don't like it get OUT", not at all, just that people should put more thought into their own life and happiness than they do when choosing a location, city or country to live in.

[davephan]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

New Zealand does better than the US on ALL measures of social well-being and quality of life. That is EASY to Google.

Have you ever visited New Zealand and Australia? I have. The standard of living is drastically lower in New Zealand than Australia, and the standard of living in Australia is drastically lower than in the US.

Gasoline is about $9 to $10 a gallon in New Zealand. A shirt in New Zealand costs about $100. The same shirt in the US is $16. An electric food mixer that costs about $280 in the US, costs $1,500 in New Zealand. All those are prices converted to USD and the gallon. As a result of the extremely high prices in New Zealand, the standard of living is drastically lower than in the US.

New Zealand and Australia are places to visit. I’d never ever want to live there. The governments in both countries are extremely liberal too. If you drive a car, minor violations get you “points”. Only a few points, and you can’t drive for two years!

[Gulfcoast]

In Florida students can begin earning college credit in HS through dual enrollment and they can also earn Bright Futures merit scholarships (based on HS GPA, test scores, volunteer hours) paid for by the state's lottery sale proceeds to use after graduation - both in college and in the trade schools. It's a terrific deal for students here in Florida.

The lower minimum wage also attracts businesses to Florida which means more jobs and more opportunities for full time restaurant/retail employees to advance in their jobs. That is also a good deal for workers even if it might take some time on the job to advance. People can and do support themselves on fast food and retail wages here in the state of Florida.

Jacking up the minimum wage to $15/hr over the next 5 years might seem like a great idea. But when businesses pull out of Florida or shut down altogether that will take away both jobs and advancement opportunities. It will also raise the cost of goods/services/housing across the board. After all, if a burger flipper gets $15/hr, jobs requiring college degrees will need to pay much better than that. Rents go up, services get pricier, goods get more expensive and the low wage earners and retirees living on a fixed income are worse off than before.

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

Donuts, to me, are a completely unnecessary "luxury" that I don't miss and can easily do without. And I make better coffee at home, I'll be damned if I'll pay $2.10 for a medium regular, when my morning cappuchino (which you'd probably pay $5 for at Starbucks except they don't use Cafe La Llave or Bustello or similar) only costs me around 40 cents to make.

The reason DD stays in business is because people are willing to pay to have someone else do pedestrian-quality foods at premium prices. If you can afford a $1.50 donut every week, then you can afford a $3.00 donut every other week - or learn how to make your own and have them every day.

Absolutely, did not mean to imply in any way that I do not support capitalism and owner control of their private business. Like you have, and I have, each makes their own decision if/when, the product or service is not worth the price. Basic economics beats all the arguments this way or that, every time. If a person is willing to pay $1.50 for a cup of coffee (that also covers a certain "social" note of being in a community gathering place, and a small premium for "rental" of a chair or booth for a pass time one values, and that cup goes to $2.25, the same measure of social pleasure combined with the actual product, looses it's "value" to that individual, and..... when a certain percentage of people begin to feel that way, business and profits go "down".... I know in the villages many people I used to see in the mornings have moved or don't come at all. McDonald's I am told, has benefited from the price increase at so many places.... however, ALL of this was taking place before the "China virus", who knows where it all stands now. Homemade yeast doughnuts are WONDERFUL... God bless my mom who would go through all that for us at least twice a month..... "back then in the good 'ol days !"

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by davephan

About 90% of the college majors have poor to low return on investment. Many people get a worthless college degree, and end up getting a low wage job that they could have obtained with no college degree.

I worked in low wage jobs for almost two decades, before going to a low cost technical college, and obtained a two year IT degree in one year. My starting wage at the IT job was double what I used to make. After about 15 years on the IT job, I was making 5 to 6 times the customer service job.

People need to invest in themselves to increase their job skills in careers that have a good return on the education investment in time and money.

In the trades, an electrician is equal to 3 carpenters. A plumber is equal to 5 carpenters. Moral of the story, become a plumber, not a carpenter, if you work in the trades.

The $15 wage is not a panacea. Target raised the wages to $15 and hour. At the same time, full time workers became part tie workers with no benefits.

Most people have it within themselves to do much more than they think that they can do. I limited my income for almost two decades, working low wage jobs. People have to acquire the job skills so that they can earn higher incomes.

With Socialism or Communism, everyone is brought down to the low level. Imagine hard working students who get A’s, are given C’s, so that all students can receive a C, even the lazy students, that are unwilling to work hard.

Totally agree with you with one exception that is a bit misleading. Definitely not 90% of college grads make a "bad" investment. If you look deeper, sadly, to many students choose the wrong major IF pay back is their major focus. We always had many students who were only interested in degrees in social work, marketing, and others. While fine majors, follow you heart's desire, they are usually warned (not always) that they have not chosen high paying fields (if that is what they are seeking, return on investment). Then, there are many who do not choose their college or university carefully. Not necessary to go Ivy League or top 10, but the problem comes in when students are not detailed in researching things like accreditation, research and writing recognition of faculty (again, MANY FINE small schools have outstanding faculty), and much more. So many "invest" in schools with poor track records of placement assistance, lack of accreditation, and now the valuable outreach of making the higher education experience available to a larger audience via technology, has resulted in a much devalued educational experience and ultimately a "useless" degree (thought ALL learning is valuable in that it enriches the individual's personal life and self-esteem). But, 90% figure of "useless" degrees and debt is too high, not accurate. Same exists in "trade" schools, must be very careful, some are very valuable, some are definitely NOT ! Regarding your comment about people investing in themselves, RIGHT ON ! Have you noticed (those of you who have traveled, lived, and studied abroad a great deal) that our country seems to be one where people are more willing to invest in hobbies, and nicer tech items, clothing, shoes, etc. than they are in themselves ? Not a condemnation, just an observation. Last comment on your post. I believe the reason so many people do not truly understand the repercussions of socialism and the progression to communism (not due to basic ideology but due to the pure greed and ambition of those who feel the power of being "in charge" of so many) is because so many have NOT actually known someone who lived under such systems, who have personal knowledge. Here in Florida we have the advantage of actually knowing people who have lived in Cuba, Venezuela, and many island and central American countries, as well as those from various European autocratic governments. Once people have a personal contact/friend who has actually known that life, their perspective changes and they begin to really understand.

[Hifred]

There are exceptions to the minimum wage law so donuts, ice cream cones and hamburger prices don't need to rise like the person posting suggested. Student workers, tipped employees, workers under the age of 20 and salaried employees don't fall under the minimum wage laws.