[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Pairadocs

Absolutely, did not mean to imply in any way that I do not support capitalism and owner control of their private business. Like you have, and I have, each makes their own decision if/when, the product or service is not worth the price. Basic economics beats all the arguments this way or that, every time. If a person is willing to pay $1.50 for a cup of coffee (that also covers a certain "social" note of being in a community gathering place, and a small premium for "rental" of a chair or booth for a pass time one values, and that cup goes to $2.25, the same measure of social pleasure combined with the actual product, looses it's "value" to that individual, and..... when a certain percentage of people begin to feel that way, business and profits go "down".... I know in the villages many people I used to see in the mornings have moved or don't come at all. McDonald's I am told, has benefited from the price increase at so many places.... however, ALL of this was taking place before the "China virus", who knows where it all stands now. Homemade yeast doughnuts are WONDERFUL... God bless my mom who would go through all that for us at least twice a month..... "back then in the good 'ol days !"

Except we all know this is false. It sounds great on paper but it doesn't work in reality.

Examples: The price of a Big Mac at McDonald's. It started at a national average of $1.60 in 1986. It's now at around $4.93, only 34 years later. In 1986, minimum wage was $3.35/hour. So a Big Mac would cost you just under half an hour's pay, in 1986, if you were earning minimum wage.

Today, with *federal* minimum wage at $7.25/hour, you'd be dishing out around 2/3 of your hour's pay for the same sandwich. With the Florida minimum wage of $8.56/hour, you're still paying more than half an hour's pay for that sandwich, that cost less than a half hour's pay in 1986.

Your buying power has weakened over the years. And that's just Big Macs. Now imagine a family of 4 wanting to treat themselves for Dad's birthday. A once a year occasion. Two Big Macs - one for each parent. A Happy Meal for the youngest kid, a Fishwich for the second kid, and a large fry for the parents and older kid to share. Plus a chocolate shake for dad since it's his birthday, and 2 sodas for the older kid and mom. Youngest kid gets a drink with the Happy Meal price.

In 1986 you could get a Big Mac, supersize fry, and a coke - all in a box for $2.59. Add another Big Mac for $1.60, Fishwich was a 95 cents, a chocolate shake for 79 cents, and since that coke is supersized, get 2 straws so the older kid can share it. The Happy Meal was $1.89.

$2.59 + 1.60 + .79 + 1.89 + .95 = $7.82 for a family of 4 to celebrate Dad's birthday at McDonald's in 1986.

Compare to today: A Big Mac meal (medium) is $6.71 with medium soda and medium fry. A second Big Mac, on its own, is $4.47. Fishwich is $4.24, and you'll still need another fry; a medium runs $2.00. A cheeseburger Happy Meal is $3.12. Don't forget the chocolate shake...a medium is $2.90. That's $23.44 for a family of 4 to celebrate Dad's birthday at McDonald's.

While that doesn't sound like a lot to you and me and most of the people living in the Villages, remember minimum wage - in 1986, at $3.35/hour, the $7.82 for the family of 4 would be 2 hours and 20 minutes pay, to cover the cost.

In 2020, in Florida at $8.56/hour, it'll take around 2 hours and 50 minutes to cover the cost. And you get less food (Big Macs are smaller, so are the fish sandwiches), and have to order an extra fry to get a similar deal.

Again - that's just McDonald's. You can look at pretty much anything, comparing it to when minimum wage was lower, and the current minimum wage, and you'll find that your dollar doesn't buy as much as it used to buy back then, overall. Wages have not kept up with costs. They just flat out haven't. The CEO salaries have gone up - the franchise owner revenue has gone up. The wealthy people who run things are MUCH wealthier than ever before, thanks in part to enormous tax write-offs and stock dividends in the companies they represent. But the workers don't get any of that. And it's the workers who are BUYING those Big Macs. Other than a certain person occupying the white house, there really aren't that many rich people who eat fast food on a regular basis. Most of them make use of their private chefs. Who are ALSO paid more than the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Pairadocs

Apart from the "arguments" concerning effects, pro and con, of minimum wage, I would like to salute you. I, like you and many here who have commented, have had some rough times, but to go days without eating (and probably those were the days when you were not fed anything at public schools either), and to live in a cold climate with no heat at all, is a testimony to you and your determination (which you must have had in spades to be able to retire and enjoy the life we have here), and hard work. It made me remember what my mother told me, no matter how difficult we had it (mother also widowed and with no particular skills plus did not even drive !), that there is always someone who has it tougher. Good for you, if only these days people had what you had inside to overcome such a horrific life, and not just to survive, but to truly overcome as you have, such people today who take personal responsibility and don't look to the government to improve their lot in life, are rare, and you and others in "our generation", perhaps a buzz word today but so true, are among the hearty, and determined, folks who really made this country what it is. Imagine being not only without food for days as you were, and without heat or shelter, and then taking off in a wagon to the complete unknown in search of a better life. Hope you and I are not a "dying breed", but I fear younger folks today could not make it.

No one should HAVE to live like that. That's the whole point of minimum wage. That's why it was implemented in the first place, and that's what people are fighting for now. The right for their kids to NOT have to endure what this person endured in his life when he (or she?) was a kid. No child should have to live in poverty, because no parent should have to decide between feeding their kids or paying rent, while working 2 20-hour jobs with no benefits, because they were unfortunate enough to be born the wrong color, with parents who spoke with the wrong accent, or the white upstanding working-class Christian parents who lived in the wrong neighborhood, and therefore couldn't get their kids to the right elementary schools.

If you are "less than" as a result of your upbringing, it's very difficult to rise above when society keeps trying to keep you down. The wealthy don't WANT poor people to get wealthy, because then they'd be competing for the wealth. That is why minimum wage is no longer a living wage. The Flemingtons of the Houston Flemingtons, don't want to have to pay their live-in nanny a living wage, because it would mean their nanny might dare to ask for an extra day off - since they can actually afford it now.

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by KRM0614

Thank you so much ! That’s exactly right it’s not the wages paid it’s the profits kept ! Almost every state has higher minimum wages and their prices are less. Look how expensive Public is ! Kroger’s would mop the floor here!

This is a unique environment also as all the local business pay much higher rent and royalties to the Morse family/ Villages. Some how they’ve managed to price gouge. As the place gets larger non of the operating costs go down in fact the amenity bill is now around 210-230 a month.

I don't know about Publix (which I think you meant ?) being more expensive, sure not to me, but we're all from various locations so I suppose that could be true for you. But your point about the Morris family, and free enterprise, and capitalism in general, it's an age old argument and many on here will defend socialism as the only way to go, while others will make valid arguments about how well capitalism has worked for us. While we certainly have our poor and homeless, just spending time a few months a year traveling the world will convince most just how well a democratic republic form of government with a capitalistic form of commerce, has served to us so well even many of our poorest citizens (again, not all) even have some type of vehicle, a TV that may not be the newest and best, a cell phone (often needed to obtain daily work), and some measure of food daily. This is unique in the world. An individual once told me (in a central American county), "America, if only I could choose, I would choose to be poor in America". We have exceptions, but even among the exceptions, you find some individuals who have made choices like prolific drug use, criminal activity, and serious mental health issues, that have compounded their circumstances. But the actual number of people dying daily from lack of food and no clothing to protect them from the elements is actually small compared to the rest of the earth ! Even one among us dying from hunger is tragic, but over all, most do not realize just what we have accomplished here. But for all the "evils" of capitalism, the Morris family included, we still have much to be thankful for in regards to death from starvation in our country. A personal decision to self ingest various drugs, kills far more Americans, but there again, do we trade the right to self determine, even destroy one's mind or body, for the "safety" of a government or others making the decisions for us. When the Villages gets too greedy, it's time to start looking around for a more comfortable place is the way I view it, and I HAVE taken stock of many of those same things. If Kroger is cheaper, and worth some of the other things NOT available where Kroger's exists ( and I know and LIKE Kroger's, shop there when visiting children and grand children), then it's time to move. When ANY developer begins, in the minds of the customers, to take "more than they are entitled to, it's not time to change the entire foundation of the country, it's time to find another location that offers more of what ever a person is seeking. THAT'S the wonderful part of being an American, we have no limitations and restrictions on where we can, and can not, live. We are only limited by what we can spend on shelter, and we have an unlimited selection of "costs of living" locations in this country. Trouble is usually, people want to live in one certain place, and THEN turn that into exactly what they want it to be. There's good and unacceptable everywhere, each has to weight it for themselves, but complaining about who makes what profit, well, it's a pretty useless waste of time as far as I view it. When I get fed up, and I decide Publix is expensive, I'll solve it, I'll move. Thankfully in my country I don't need permission of the government to do that. And I am, thankful !

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by KRM0614

Thank you so much ! That’s exactly right it’s not the wages paid it’s the profits kept ! Almost every state has higher minimum wages and their prices are less. Look how expensive Public is ! Kroger’s would mop the floor here!

This is a unique environment also as all the local business pay much higher rent and royalties to the Morse family/ Villages. Some how they’ve managed to price gouge. As the place gets larger non of the operating costs go down in fact the amenity bill is now around 210-230 a month.

I don't know about Publix (which I think you meant ?) being more expensive, sure not to me, but we're all from various locations so I suppose that could be true for you. But your point about the Morris family, and free enterprise, and capitalism in general, it's an age old argument and many on here will defend socialism as the only way to go, while others will make valid arguments about how well capitalism has worked for us. While we certainly have our poor and homeless, just spending time a few months a year traveling the world will convince most just how well a democratic republic form of government with a capitalistic form of commerce, has served to us so well even many of our poorest citizens (again, not all) even have some type of vehicle, a TV that may not be the newest and best, a cell phone (often needed to obtain daily work), and some measure of food daily. This is unique in the world. An individual once told me (in a central American county), "America, if only I could choose, I would choose to be poor in America". We have exceptions, but even among the exceptions, you find some individuals who have made choices like prolific drug use, criminal activity, and serious mental health issues, that have compounded their circumstances. But the actual number of people dying daily from lack of food and no clothing to protect them from the elements is actually small compared to the rest of the earth ! Even one among us dying from hunger is tragic, but over all, most do not realize just what we have accomplished here. But for all the "evils" of capitalism, the Morris family included, we still have much to be thankful for in regards to death from starvation in our country. A personal decision to self ingest various drugs, kills far more Americans, but there again, do we trade the right to self determine, even destroy one's mind or body, for the "safety" of a government or others making the decisions for us. When the Villages gets too greedy, it's time to start looking around for a more comfortable place is the way I view it, and I HAVE taken stock of many of those same things. If Kroger is cheaper, and worth some of the other things NOT available where Kroger's exists ( and I know and LIKE Kroger's, shop there when visiting children and grand children), then it's time to move. When ANY developer begins, in the minds of the customers, to take "more than they are entitled to, it's not time to change the entire foundation of the country, it's time to find another location that offers more of what ever a person is seeking. THAT'S the wonderful part of being an American, we have no limitations and restrictions on where we can, and can not, live. We are only limited by what we can spend on shelter, and we have an unlimited selection of "costs of living" locations in this country. Trouble is usually, people want to live in one certain place, and THEN turn that into exactly what they want it to be. There's good and there is unacceptable everywhere, each has to weight it for themselves, but complaining about who makes what profit, well, it's a pretty useless waste of time as far as I view it. When I get fed up, and I decide Publix is expensive, the Morris family is greedy beyond what I personally consider acceptable, I'll solve it, and probably rather quickly, I'll move, it's not as complicated as it was with children, careers, etc. Why on earth anyone in retirement puts up with what they consider unacceptable greed, rules, restrictions, or other irritating forces and circumstances, is beyond my thought full analysis ! Perhaps, they are tied here because they have moved parents of advanced age into their homes here ? That would explain their circumstances, but I would guess for most, like myself, moving is much easier now than years ago. Thankfully in my country I don't need permission of the government to do that. And I am thankful, this is not a snide remark !

[mtdjed]

Raising the minimum wage is not the only cost. All jobs are comparative in some way. Some require more skill, some harder work, some more danger, some in higher cost of living areas. Raise the minimum and all else will raise. Think of what would happen in sports. Raise the wage for the lower skilled and the upper skilled will get more

That impact will spark creative ways to reduce costs. Automation, outsourcing. reduced benefits, elimination of jobs. What could we see? More automatic checkouts, more foreign accents on help lines, elimination of manned gatehouses, postal service every three days, less groomed areas in The Villages, No more flowers in rotaries. More ALDIs and less Deli and bakery personnel. Automated lawn mowing (My neighbor has auto lawn mower now)

[thomp679]

Originally Posted by jammendolia

I am from Taxachusett. High school kids and unskilled labor is not worth $15 an hour.

Question: Were you worth what you were paid for your skill? I have seen many a white collar worker not worth the salary they were paid.

By the way, I have also seen a lot of hard workers that were high school kids and unskilled labor. In fact, I see a lot of these workers around The Villages. You try working in the heat of the Florida day for the wages they are paid. And stop looking down upon low wage workers.

[Pairadocs]

Not sure which location you go to, but had a Big Mac last week and sure wasn't $5 as you posted. I even had one just outside Disney and it was not that much, so I'd venture a guess that a person is paying pretty much the same percentage of the hour's wage as back then. I can remember making about $3.25 an hour, but seems like it took one whole hour's pay for a meal deal. But, not an important argument, it is what it is. People will forever believe that artificially raising wages will work to "fix" the problems, oh well. Perhaps we need to add to the materials in the economics section of our "library", give folks a chance to study a range of economic theories and make up their own minds which "work", that's the best way. But often the "arguments" on here seem to be primarily emotionally rooted, who knows ?

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by thomp679

Question: Were you worth what you were paid for your skill? I have seen many a white collar worker not worth the salary they were paid.

By the way, I have also seen a lot of hard workers that were high school kids and unskilled labor. In fact, I see a lot of these workers around The Villages. You try working in the heat of the Florida day for the wages they are paid. And stop looking down upon low wage workers.

"white collar, blue collar", the emotional foundation of some of the so called arguments made on here would be laughed out of a high school level logic class. First question that comes to mind, while we all have observed "white collar" workers not "worth" anything, are there also "blue collar" workers not "worth" anything. Are there any physicians not "worth" anything ? WHO decides "worth" ? And to suggest "why don't YOU try working in the Florida heat, yada yada yada". WHY would anyone who does not like that, or maybe can't, even want to work in the "Florida heat" ? On the other hand, one of our sons LOVES it, would not do anything else, especially if confined inside a building. Makes you wonder about people the way they "talk", configure their "arguments" with pure emotion, never bothering to support their point of view. Come to think of it, I HAVE seen a lot of old people, like myself and my neighbors, don't know if they are high school grads or not, but they ARE out in the HOT Florida sun, working on golf courses, at pools, even directing traffic for events. They seem to LOVE working out in the hot Florida sun, most for VERY LOW wages. People are about as happy as they decide to be. Money does not equal happiness, and now watch, people will start posting that you can't be happy when you don't make enough to even eat. It's a deep philosophical difference between those who would say, if you work a job and do not even make enough to have food, then you need to add another job. I did this in college, had one job serving coffee and doughnuts, another checking groceries, and still could not keep both food on the table AND pay the rent on a simple, roach infested apartment on the campus of a state university. SO, no alternative ! Had to add a third job, at the university library, touble was, ran out of hours in the day. Between classes, study, and required lab time, I was not able to even sleep for more than 3-4 hours. Most people probably don't even realize you can function with 4 hours of sleep.... LOL ! And those who think it is a human birth right to have food, shelter, and medical care, well, that is not always true. There is no definitive answer to this question; do we come into this world with the RIGHT to food, shelter, and medical care, or don't we ? Christians and other religions have debated this since the beginning of time.

[Lindsyburnsy]

But we should all give the top 1% a huge raise in the form of tax reduction. Unless you are a Jeff Bezos, that doesn't include you. These low paid employees still pay the same for food, clothing, gas and vehicles.

[Bay Kid]

I feel that when the govern gives all their workers a paid vacation day that the govern should reward all workers with a paid days wages. Why do the non-govern workers have to pay for the govern workers day off?

[Gulfcoast]

Both of my young adult college age children work in fast food right now part time. Neither one voted for the minimum wage increase and I hadn't even discussed that issue with them prior to them voting. Would they like to make more money? Sure, absolutely. But they also understood what nearly doubling the minimum wage within a span of 5 years will do to the economy in our state. That made me very proud.

[Joe V.]

Originally Posted by Lindsyburnsy

But we should all give the top 1% a huge raise in the form of tax reduction. Unless you are a Jeff Bezos, that doesn't include you. These low paid employees still pay the same for food, clothing, gas and vehicles.

Work 2 jobs to make ends meet like tens of thousands of us had to do in the 70s.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by Bay Kid

I feel that when the govern gives all their workers a paid vacation day that the govern should reward all workers with a paid days wages. Why do the non-govern workers have to pay for the govern workers day off?

Because we are sheep and allow this to happen. Keep reelecting the same people who are owned by others do as they wish not what is good for their constituents.

[thomp679]

Originally Posted by Joe V.

Work 2 jobs to make ends meet like tens of thousands of us had to do in the 70s.

Let's do our research before just blurting out non-sense. If one would factor in inflation to the minimum wage for a given year, the seventies were the best years for minimum wage making $1-$3 more an hour than todays rates. Many people do work two jobs by necessary.

US minimum wage by year

[Dana1963]

Originally Posted by Joe V.

Work 2 jobs to make ends meet like tens of thousands of us had to do in the 70s.

I never had to work 2 jobs in the 70’s. Received benefits, sick pay, paid vacations.
The Florida legislators will change this just like Ammendment 4 from 2018 popular vote