[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Bucco

Many Americans seem to look down on other countries, and ignore our own "warts". Based on what, I am not sure.

We need to improve a lot in our country and forget making fun of others...better use of our time.

The words for it are jingoism and ethnocentrism!

[Byte1]

Going back to the comment about socialized medicine being soooo great in third world countries, let me reply using my experience at having LIVED in other countries, not visited on vacation or flying there for a medical treatment. We are speaking of what the citizens or residents get when they are "given" such a great socialist opportunity.
First off, lets mention payroll deductions again. It is not just some fee they are paying for their so-called "free" health care. It is a percentage of their paycheck. Germany pays about 55% of their wages in payroll taxes, not to mention sales and VAT, plus other taxes. You want to see what socialism does to the middle class? Try living in those "great" free countries.
Regarding the idea of running to other countries for your operations. Yes, I know a guy that had both his hips replaced in Columbia. I think it only cost him about $7,000. Good deal, but I wonder how many natives of Columbia can even afford that much.
India will replace your knee for about $7K including the airlines ticket. That's a deal that is a few years old, so I am not sure how much it is now. Would you go to India and get anything done, regardless of how great the surgeon is? It is one of the nastiest, dirtiest countries in the world. Check out how they live. Sure, I had an Xray that only cost me $4. I was an American and walked to the front of the line. Americans get treated better in these other countries than the locals.
You think their systems are better? That is so naive. I call folks in America ignorant in their "great" education because they are so arrogant to think that they know how other countries live. The key word in this is "LIVED IN" those other countries. It is fact that our low income earners live as well as supposed middle class in many other countries, including European countries. Socialism eliminates the middle class, period. When it comes to medical treatment, someone mentioned how all these other countries have those that can afford it, fly to the U.S. for treatment. If it is so expensive here, why do they rush over here for treatment? Ask my niece that lives in Canada. She's a nurse and comes here for treatment. One problem they have there is long lines. Her mother died of cancer in Canada probably because it took so long to get an appointment and then longer again to get treatment started.
I have been to hospitals in other countries that had dark hallways with no lighting, broken windows, family had to bring blankets and food. Sure, not all of them are like that, but beware what you wish for.
Live in a socialized medicine country before "knowing" all about it. I don't know it all, but I have lived most of my life in other countries. I'll take expensive health care here over those countries.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

People come from Canada to the US for SPECIALIZED treatment because we are a bigger country than they are. Our University Hospitals are excellent. But, still, in general, the US is BELOW Canada in health care for the average citizen.

I disagree and so does everyone in my family that lives in Canada. Then again, perhaps the "average citizen" does not need to utilize their health care system. How many years did you live in Canada? Maybe you have more experience in this than I do.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

Good to hear - Too bad Florida still considers booze safe and pot dangerous.

Both are dangerous, but beer is legal. Why argue?

[JMintzer]

Wait time for tx by NHS in England...

NHS waiting list hits 14 year record high of 4.7 million people | The BMJ

Hospital waiting times at worst-ever level - BBC News

A if you think it's only due to covid, here's info from 2019, BEFORE covid...

NHS performance and waiting times | The Health Foundation

[Byte1]

An interesting but dated publication from the CATO institute compares health care in many countries "The Grass Is Not Always Greener" I think I already posted a reference to it, now that I think about it. It kind of reinforces what I have said many times.
We have excellent medical technology and professionals. The problem with expense is more in line with the regulations, which restricts competition of insurance companies; humongous malpractice insurance premiums; high drugs costs compared to what other countries pay for the same medications, etc. Tort reform would probably be a good start.
Remember, other countries are smaller. Also remember that because the cost in other countries providing for socialized health care, they must fund it by high taxation. I do not care about HOW someone rates our country, because I have lived in other countries and experienced thru the locals how their so-called "FREE" health care works.
I never said our health care system is perfect, but I would rather be here in an emergency or major illness than anywhere else in the world. Those that have only vacationed or "cruised" to other ports have no clue as to how their systems work. Sure, being able to go to a pharmacy and asking for an antibiotic without a prescription is pretty neat, especially when it only costs about $4-7 for a weeks supply.
Ask yourself this: would you give up being middle class for gov managed FREE health care? Maybe if you were dying.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by S=kBlogW

Yikes...So US healthcare and R & D sucks compared to the rest of the world?

Lets see, the two best and most effective vaccines for Covid were designed and developed in the USA, at warp speed, and we can't keep up with demand for these vaccines from the rest of world. You may save $500 a crown going to Ecuador, but the world is not going there for anything serious.

Traveled much? Wealthy people from every country on earth come to the USA for the most advanced treatments and surgeries. Believe me, they are not flocking to Quito Ecuador if they need the most advanced cardiac or cancer treatments.

I'm sorry, but you are spouting military grade stupidity.

Yes, on world lists the US is WAY behind the Scandinavian countries and Switzerland etc on health care getting to its citizens.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Byte1

I disagree and so does everyone in my family that lives in Canada. Then again, perhaps the "average citizen" does not need to utilize their health care system. How many years did you live in Canada? Maybe you have more experience in this than I do.

Can you say the measuring yardstick of world lists that rate the US lower than Canada. They study many families statistically NOT just your SMALL numbers. So YOU FEEL THAT WAY but THE world DOES not. I believe the WORLD!!!!!!!!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Both are dangerous, but beer is legal. Why argue?

Both are dangerous?

"Excessive alcohol use is responsible for more than 95,000 deaths in the United States each year, or 261 deaths per day. These deaths shorten the lives of those who die by an average of almost 29 years, for a total of 2.8 million years of potential life lost."

Here is a summary of several studies - for those that don't want to wade through this, the bottom line is there are NO deaths in the US attributable to MJ.

This study went further and consider ALL deaths that MJ could have contributed to:

Bottom line:

"After adjusting for confounders, including alcohol use, cigarette smoking, and demographic factors, individuals who reported using cannabis, but not other substances (i.e., cocaine, heroin, hallucinogens, inhalants), at baseline were not at increased risk of all-cause mortality compared with individuals who reported not using cannabis or other substances at baseline"

This is by the NIH:

Injury and Death - The Health Effects of Cannabis and Cannabinoids - NCBI Bookshelf

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Going back to the comment about socialized medicine being soooo great in third world countries, let me reply using my experience at having LIVED in other countries, not visited on vacation or flying there for a medical treatment. We are speaking of what the citizens or residents get when they are "given" such a great socialist opportunity.
First off, lets mention payroll deductions again. It is not just some fee they are paying for their so-called "free" health care. It is a percentage of their paycheck. Germany pays about 55% of their wages in payroll taxes, not to mention sales and VAT, plus other taxes. You want to see what socialism does to the middle class? Try living in those "great" free countries.
Regarding the idea of running to other countries for your operations. Yes, I know a guy that had both his hips replaced in Columbia. I think it only cost him about $7,000. Good deal, but I wonder how many natives of Columbia can even afford that much.
India will replace your knee for about $7K including the airlines ticket. That's a deal that is a few years old, so I am not sure how much it is now. Would you go to India and get anything done, regardless of how great the surgeon is? It is one of the nastiest, dirtiest countries in the world. Check out how they live. Sure, I had an Xray that only cost me $4. I was an American and walked to the front of the line. Americans get treated better in these other countries than the locals.
You think their systems are better? That is so naive. I call folks in America ignorant in their "great" education because they are so arrogant to think that they know how other countries live. The key word in this is "LIVED IN" those other countries. It is fact that our low income earners live as well as supposed middle class in many other countries, including European countries. Socialism eliminates the middle class, period. When it comes to medical treatment, someone mentioned how all these other countries have those that can afford it, fly to the U.S. for treatment. If it is so expensive here, why do they rush over here for treatment? Ask my niece that lives in Canada. She's a nurse and comes here for treatment. One problem they have there is long lines. Her mother died of cancer in Canada probably because it took so long to get an appointment and then longer again to get treatment started.
I have been to hospitals in other countries that had dark hallways with no lighting, broken windows, family had to bring blankets and food. Sure, not all of them are like that, but beware what you wish for.
Live in a socialized medicine country before "knowing" all about it. I don't know it all, but I have lived most of my life in other countries. I'll take expensive health care here over those countries.

That is wonderful information, except you don't mention WHICH countries you lived in and provide nothing except opinions. WHO and the UN and others do studies every year of healthcare outcomes and cost. And the US is falling every year. PERIOD. US Cost is going up EVERY YEAR. Period.

And I believe you were referring to my posts, and I never said Socialized medicine was great, I said there are 17 countries in which socialized, or single-payer centuries have better outcomes for a lower cost - 2 1/2 times lower cost. You provide any evidence of your claims and name your countries, and I will be glad to flood the system with reports and studies confirming my claims.

And I believe I said my wife and I were considering immigration and we live in a country in Ecuador for about 6 months. And I also said, I considered Ecuador to be a 3rd world country, not a first world industrialized country. Ecuador is BROKE and has a lot of problems, but they still do more than the US for their citizens and anyone else living there.

However, the first-world industrialized countries I am referring to do much better.

And I am very happy for you, that you can afford Healthcare in the US. 35 million people do not have access to ANY healthcare insurance in the US except emergency rooms - which YOUR TAXES pay for. 50% of bankruptcies in the US are associated with healthcare bills. Companies are going out of business because they can not afford to provide healthcare insurance for their employees. And on and on.

Maybe if you lived more in the US you would know more about how bad our predatory capitalistic healthcare system is.

I am not talking about someone coming here to get a million-dollar facelift of boob job, I am talking about a mother working 3 jobs to try and buy medication for her children. " I call folks in America ignorant in their "great" education because they are so arrogant to think that they know how other countries live" I will expand and say some Americans are so arrogant because they are fortunate enough to afford the extortionate/extortionist cost so the American healthcare system while the majority of Americans go to bed knowing they are just one accident away from bankruptcy.

In fact I will go first, here is ONE site that links to numerous other sites, and provides detailed information on rankings of countries in healthcare:

U.S. Health Care from a Global Perspective, 2019 | Commonwealth Fund