[GrumpyOldMan]

Well, civil liberties again.

Seems to be common. What about Vaccinations required for children to go school? One example. Your RIGHTS, as Justice Scalia said, and I paraphrase, are limited, there is no such thing as an unlimited right. Rights are given by the government, and can be regulated by the government. In the case of public welfare where the threat is sufficient all rights can be restricted by the declaration of martial law - which was added to the powers the president has following 911.

The fact that YOUR RIGHTS have not been limited by forcing you to be vaccinated. If things got out of hand, the government could.

I love all these rights arguments - censorship, your RIGHT to say anything any time any where. Guns, your right to any guns any time any where, vaccinations, you body your rights.

I heard a great quote on a TV show the other day, no where in the constitution does it say "you have the right to put coffee creamer in your coffee". But, that wouldn't stop the **** storm if the government said you couldn't.

[Becca9800]

Someone asked if the others had spoke w any healthcare workers. I'm a 34-year registered nurse, certified nurse paralegal, and 22-year health care risk manager. I can tell you, the medical professional populace is equally divided on whether or not they will get the C19 vaccine(s). These are equally educated (at minimum, w the basic education required for licensure/certification) professionals. Because you don't agree with their decision should not allow you to consider either side ignorant. Instead, you must recognize that not all these educated, responsible people think alike. You trust them with your lives, but think you know what's best for them personally?

I can tell you that in my 300 bed acute care hospital, every one of the COVID + patients requiring a ventilator had one or more UNCONTROLLED underlying conditions, not one was a healthy adult, w or wo a controlled underlying condition, regardless of their age. My peers, while equally divided, have good rationale for getting or not getting the vaccine. I have researched the issue and I have elected to not get a vaccine despite being high risk (breast CA, fully-controlled insulin-dependent diabetes and coronary artery disease). I have my reasons and they are solid. My husband will take the vaccine. He respects my decision and I respect his.

And yes, our civil liberties are threatened, regardless of what you personally believe, or want to call it. Airlines, concert ticket sellers, cruise lines, football venues etc have already announced they are looking into adopting policy for their vaccinated v non-vaccinated patrons. I will eventually be forced to drive 1100 miles 2x/year when the airline won't sell me a ticket bc I'm not vaccinated. It's coming. Not a conspiracy theory, the bootleggers are already selling fake c19 vaccine cards.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Swoop

The death totals for the US in 2020 have not been released. There are no 600,000 additional deaths in 2020. Anyone using that figure is basing it on the assumption of the coded Covid deaths being added the the projected deaths for 2020. From the CDC’s website “Because of the time needed to investigate certain causes of death and to process and review data, final annual mortality data for a given year are typically released 11 months after the end of the calendar year.” Any death totals for 2020 are based on assumptions, not actual data...

That is false, I've pointed out in another thread it was false, I've provided the CDC links showing it was false, and yet you still make the assertion.

The CDC does not agree with your theory of where the 600,000 number comes from.

[PNaughton]

Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr

I would think that once everyone who wants to be vaccinate is, then we should be able to fully back to normal. We should be able to know this when people stop showing up for the vaccine.

I got my two shots well over a month go but I continue to wear a mask indoors in public spaces because from what I understand, I can still contract the virus and spread it to others. I'm assuming that there are still people that want to get vaccinated but haven't been able to do so yet, so I feel a responsibility toward my fellow humans.

But once every that wants to be vaccinated has been, I feel no responsibility to those who choose not to be vaccinated. I shouldn't have to live my life based on their choices.

If we get vaxxed and still can get it what's the point of getting vaccinated. An anti vaxxer I know will not get vaxed and says if we all get vaxed he has nothing to worry about. Sort of saying the vaccine works but they won't admit it.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Becca9800

Someone asked if the others had spoke w any healthcare workers. I'm a 34-year registered nurse, certified nurse paralegal, and 22-year health care risk manager. I can tell you, the medical professional populace is equally divided on whether or not they will get the C19 vaccine(s). These are equally educated (at minimum, w the basic education required for licensure/certification) professionals. Because you don't agree with their decision should not allow you to consider either side ignorant. Instead, you must recognize that not all these educated, responsible people think alike. You trust them with your lives, but think you know what's best for them personally?

I can tell you that in my 300 bed acute care hospital, every one of the COVID + patients requiring a ventilator had one or more UNCONTROLLED underlying conditions, not one was a healthy adult, w or wo a controlled underlying condition, regardless of their age. My peers, while equally divided, have good rationale for getting or not getting the vaccine. I have researched the issue and I have elected to not get a vaccine despite being high risk (breast CA, fully-controlled insulin-dependent diabetes and coronary artery disease). I have my reasons and they are solid. My husband will take the vaccine. He respects my decision and I respect his.

And yes, our civil liberties are threatened, regardless of what you personally believe, or want to call it. Airlines, concert ticket sellers, cruise lines, football venues etc have already announced they are looking into adopting policy for their vaccinated v non-vaccinated patrons. I will eventually be forced to drive 1100 miles 2x/year when the airline won't sell me a ticket bc I'm not vaccinated. It's coming. Not a conspiracy theory, the bootleggers are already selling fake c19 vaccine cards.

Thank you for this clear, concise post which highlights all the issues with this new discrimination. Your assessment of the medical issues you’ve witnessed meshes completely with facts shared with me by medical professionals. I hope you remain well and safe in your occupation and life.

[Becca9800]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com

There is no need to defend another's decisions. I sincerely struggle to understand why if you're vaccinated, what does it matter if your pickleball partner isn't. You believe in your decision to receive the vaccine, if it doesn't protect you why did you subject your body to it?

[billethkid]

Do we assume that the non vax folks are not concerned about catching it or passing it on to other non vax.

Would they not be more apt to get it in any crowded indoor venue even if the participants were 50-50 vax and non vax?

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by billethkid

Do we assume that the non vax folks are not concerned about catching it or passing it on to other non vax.

Would they not be more apt to get it in any crowded indoor venue even if the participants were 50-50 vax and non vax?

The non vax people I know still wear a mask, wash hands frequently and social distance as much as possible. Some are younger, had it, recovered easily and aren’t concerned. One person is in their eighties and recently was diagnosed with early onset dementia. That person isn’t interested in prolonging life.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by Aces4

Yes, that’s what I am saying and I fervently hope you are correct about the courts.

As I said earlier, I was fully vaccinated 2 months ago but I am pretty amazed by the lack of civility toward people who have elected to forego vaccination at this point. I wish people would be vaccinated but certainly would not call them ignorant or worse and treat them poorly if they choose not to do so.

Would love to know on what basis, comment, movement you are making your claim.

You are simply looking to create an issue that will divide.

You have made your fears visible, and it has been shown they are simply not valid.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Bucco

Would love to know on what basis, comment, movement you are making your claim.

You are simply looking to create an issue that will divide.

You have made your fears visible, and it has been shown they are simply not valid.

Did you not read Becca’s confirmation of what she has faced since she elected not to be vaccinated? I know, I know, yours is the only truth. (Big eye roll here... ) not to mention the fact that you alone post so often to discredit opposing thoughts to yours regarding vaccinations.

What’s your huge divide? Got your vaccination, good for you and that’s ALL you need to worry about. No one else needs you minding their vaccination decision.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by Aces4

Thank you for this clear, concise post which highlights all the issues with this new discrimination. Your assessment of the medical issues you’ve witnessed meshes completely with facts shared with me by medical professionals. I hope you remain well and safe in your occupation and life.

But not backed up by facts. Passing judgement and creating havoc with words is simply another way of sayin.....”a lot of people are saying”. Word salad with no meaning.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Bucco

I think some people need civic lessons.

People seem to just come on here and say things, obviously without any thought.

YOU, as an individual do not have rights that exceed those of community.

As Americans, we are free to associate with whomever we choose, free to pick our friends and our fashions and our lifestyles. We have the freedom of expression, and of assembly. The right to be nonconformists is--at least theoretically--endowed by our Creator.

But communities, like individuals, also have rights, laid out by the same great thinkers and traditions that empowered us as individuals. Collectively, we are entitled to protection from threats to our health, safety, peace, comfort and convenience.

Yes, many on here need a lesson in civics, and perhaps some reading material on how this country became great

And then there are some who don’t even know when their health isn’t being threatened.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by Aces4

Did you not read Becca’s confirmation of what she has faced since she elected not to be vaccinated? I know, I know, yours is the only truth. (Big eye roll here... ) not to mention the fact that you alone post so often to discredit opposing thoughts to yours regarding vaccinations.

What’s your huge divide? Got your vaccination, good for you and that’s ALL you need to worry about. No one else needs you minding their vaccination decision.

Do whatever you want but do not tell anyone on here you are being forced to do it.

Do whatever you want, your decision should be based on factual information that serves you and your family....you are not being forced to do anything.

If a post on here with hearsay information, even though contradicted by real info, is the basis for you, fine, but you are not being forced, nor told what to do.

To spend a day on a forum, telling readers how the government is forcing you to do things which is not true, must be symptomatic.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by Aces4

Yes, that’s what I am saying and I fervently hope you are correct about the courts.

As I said earlier, I was fully vaccinated 2 months ago but I am pretty amazed by the lack of civility toward people who have elected to forego vaccination at this point. I wish people would be vaccinated but certainly would not call them ignorant or worse and treat them poorly if they choose not to do so.

Wow. My hat's off to you big time! Do you know how rare it is for people to put their feet in someone else's shoes? I thank you.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by Becca9800

Someone asked if the others had spoke w any healthcare workers. I'm a 34-year registered nurse, certified nurse paralegal, and 22-year health care risk manager. I can tell you, the medical professional populace is equally divided on whether or not they will get the C19 vaccine(s). These are equally educated (at minimum, w the basic education required for licensure/certification) professionals. Because you don't agree with their decision should not allow you to consider either side ignorant. Instead, you must recognize that not all these educated, responsible people think alike. You trust them with your lives, but think you know what's best for them personally?

I can tell you that in my 300 bed acute care hospital, every one of the COVID + patients requiring a ventilator had one or more UNCONTROLLED underlying conditions, not one was a healthy adult, w or wo a controlled underlying condition, regardless of their age. My peers, while equally divided, have good rationale for getting or not getting the vaccine. I have researched the issue and I have elected to not get a vaccine despite being high risk (breast CA, fully-controlled insulin-dependent diabetes and coronary artery disease). I have my reasons and they are solid. My husband will take the vaccine. He respects my decision and I respect his.

And yes, our civil liberties are threatened, regardless of what you personally believe, or want to call it. Airlines, concert ticket sellers, cruise lines, football venues etc have already announced they are looking into adopting policy for their vaccinated v non-vaccinated patrons. I will eventually be forced to drive 1100 miles 2x/year when the airline won't sell me a ticket bc I'm not vaccinated. It's coming. Not a conspiracy theory, the bootleggers are already selling fake c19 vaccine cards.

Thank you, Becca, and thank you for your role in treating Covid patients. Yes, I was asking if another poster had gotten insight directly from a health care worker because s/he seemed to be saying we could get interesting information from them (you), and I'm sure we can!

I'm not surprised to hear you say that 100% of those needing a ventilator were not in good health to begin with. But then we always hear about the 25 year old jock with no pre-existing conditions who died of the disease, too. That's where we get into the realm of the mind/body connection, and I don't want to go there right now as it's a whole other story.