[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I believe we can trust the CDC and the NIH.

I so want to trust the government too. But it's not easy. I worked for the federal government for 31 years and even I don't trust parts of it, considering our history of egregious "adventures." This makes getting an experimental, unapproved vaccine even more questionable, in my opinion. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't think so (I wouldn't have been able to maintain my federal job if I were, for one thing):

Let’s not forget* the Swine flu vaccine debacle...or...
-The Tuskeegee experiments
-MK Ultra
-Dosing military recruits with LSD without knowledge or consent
-Experimental nuclear explosions in Nevada leading to thousands of cases of thyroid cancer and deaths
-Allowing thousands of people to die of AIDS before it was taken halfway seriously
-Selling bombs to Iran and drugs to American citizens to fund the Nicaraguan contras
-Dishonesty about why we invaded Iraq
-Other experiments on prisoners, the military, children (!), the mentally ill, and pregnant women

Hmmm. I was just reading about a current study investigating how and why people are overly trustful and willing to follow without question the orders of the "authorities." May or not be relevant here. Just sayin.'

*Sources available on request, or you can easily find them yourself

[Gulfcoast]

I think that the most susceptible have already had access to the vaccine and they have made their choice whether or not to get vaccinated. That's good enough for me. I'm not going to spend my time worrying about why or why not someone else chose to get vaccinated. At this point, it doesn't sound like our hospitals would be overrun by Covid patients which was the whole point of the masks and social distancing anyway. The goal has never been to completely eradicate the virus off of the face of the earth. The goal was to slow the spread down to manageable levels and I believe that has been accomplished and then some.

Time to move onto something else.

[MaryShields]

Having had COVID gives an immune response. Not in any hurry to get a vaccine.

[Swoop]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

...refusing (or undecided about) getting get an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

...refusing (or undecided about) about getting vaccinated when the unvaccinated, if infected, have an 80-90% of no or mild symptoms and the vaccine confers only a 5% upgrade in those chances, against a backdrop of an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

As an "undecided" I do struggle with the possibility that the anti-vaxxers might be hindering herd immunity. That's why I started this thread, and I appreciate all the thoughtful responses (this is soooo much better than Facebook!).

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.

If one makes a measured, rational choice not to be exposed to something potentially deadly, even if it hinders herd immunity, that person is choosing to protect him or herself from death or severe illness - the risk of which appears to be greater than infection with Covid. Further, Covid is projected to die out, as viruses do, after it runs its course of two to three years, with or without mass vaccination. So how is all this a lack of bravery? It seems quite sensible to me, but maybe I'm biased.

And as for the "selfish" tag - same line of thought. Is it really selfish to choose not to run headlong into something that can kill or cause severe illness? Isn't that what all of us have been choosing for at least the last year?

How about if undecideds just want to wait until the vaccines receive full FDA approval? Are they still the scum of the earth?

Great post!!

[Swoop]

Originally Posted by coffeebean

LOL.....Notice I referred to "initial trials" in my post you are responding to. Yes, I'm very aware the millions of people who have been vaccinated, myself included, are part of a continuing trial. I've been told that so many times on this forum, I'm beginning to believe it. You know how THAT works, don't ya?

If you don’t believe it’s still a trial consider this:
How long will the vaccine protect you for - unknown
Will you require a booster shot - unknown
Will it protect you against variants - unknown
Will there be any long term side effects - unknown
That sounds like a trial to me...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

...refusing (or undecided about) getting get an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

...refusing (or undecided about) about getting vaccinated when the unvaccinated, if infected, have an 80-90% of no or mild symptoms and the vaccine confers only a 5% upgrade in those chances, against a backdrop of an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

As an "undecided" I do struggle with the possibility that the anti-vaxxers might be hindering herd immunity. That's why I started this thread, and I appreciate all the thoughtful responses (this is soooo much better than Facebook!).

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.

If one makes a measured, rational choice not to be exposed to something potentially deadly, even if it hinders herd immunity, that person is choosing to protect him or herself from death or severe illness - the risk of which appears to be greater than infection with Covid. Further, Covid is projected to die out, as viruses do, after it runs its course of two to three years, with or without mass vaccination. So how is all this a lack of bravery? It seems quite sensible to me, but maybe I'm biased.

And as for the "selfish" tag - same line of thought. Is it really selfish to choose not to run headlong into something that can kill or cause severe illness? Isn't that what all of us have been choosing for at least the last year?

How about if undecideds just want to wait until the vaccines receive full FDA approval? Are they still the scum of the earth?

See, people who try to think things through, such as yourself, I respect your hesitation. I don't agree with it. But I absolutely respect it. Because we get differing information regularly from the CDC, because this IS a new thing, because the vaccine IS a new vaccine, because we know, that there's a lot we still DON'T know...you are hesitant. And I respect that.

I would ask you though, to consider the philosophical side of the equation, and put science vs. evidence aside for a minute. I'll talk about me. Feel free to fill it in with yourself, as applicable.

I'll be 60 next week. I have no children. I was a Girl Scout. I was taught that it is our duty as human beings to at least TRY to leave this world in a better place than we found it. Even if we fail, it's up to us to try.

My generation has done a bang-up job in helping and hindering the human race. We've thoroughly scorched it, and we've run ourselves ragged to heal it. Right now, we are faced with a quandry.

We can take what we _believe_ to be a very minimal risk, in order to eradicate a virus that has already killed around 3 million people worldwide in just one year, sent tens of millions to hospitals, put hundreds of millions out of work, and affected several billion families in one way or another. All in a single year. We can take a leap of faith that a vaccine will drastically reduce, if not completely eliminate, this particular threat against the next generations.

Or, we can take what we _believe_ to also be a somewhat minimal risk, and take a leap of faith that we won't get sick, and the virus won't mutate as a result of our lack of immunity, and that future generations won't be affected anyway.

I have no personal dog in the fight of future generations. Its not, as they say, my problem. But as a human being whose generation has created this and other traumas on this planet, I feel it my responsibility to choose the risk that is most likely to help the majority, rather than the risk that is most likely to help only myself.

Both are small risks. Both of these risks have unknown outcomes. The difference is that one might save millions in the future, and the other one might only save me.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.

I left out most of your posts just for brevity.

I can't entirely agree with the basis of your post. I respect that you believe what you posted; I disagree with it.

You state numerous times that taking the vaccine could result in death.

That is true.

You state it is a new vaccine, and the long-term results are unknown.

That is sort of true, but also some false.

The "art" (or science) of making vaccines is not new. Most of these vaccines are not new. With some of them, there is a new twist, but it is based on the knowledge of other vaccines that are not new. The odds of them killing you are much lower than your dying while taking a shower - one of the deadliest places in your home. A lot of testing has demonstrated that safety and testing continue as hundreds of millions of doses are administered worldwide. All indications are it is very safe.

There is an enormous list of other activities that are much more likely to kill you than vaccination. And yet, most of us do those things every day. And we do them because we are used to doing them.

Sometimes the best thing we can do is take the advice of our primary care physicians. That is what I do when it comes to health issues. Not because she is an expert on pandemics or viruses, but because she knows me, knows my health conditions, and is paid (in my case by the VA) to do the best she can to give me the advice to keep me healthy.

She is not interested in politics; she is not interested in getting a bonus for selling more vaccinations; she is not interested in the latest news broadcast about something a podiatrist has to say about vaccinations.

She reads and studies the medical journals, she reads and applies the latest guidelines published by the VA, and she talks to me about what and why she wants me to do things.

When the vaccine became available, I asked her if I could defer getting mine until people who needed it more got theirs. She said, NO. She said she wanted me in the first wave of vaccinations at the VA in Gainesville and explained why. That was that. I got mine as instructed by my PCP.

I was a consultant in the IT industry for 35 years. I was considered an expert, and people paid significant rates to get my opinion on things they wanted to do to their IT infrastructure. It never amazed me how some mid-level manager always wanted to argue about how he thought the changes should be done. He knew best. And almost without fail, if the company followed his advice, they called me back the next year and paid me more since I had to clean up his mess/mistakes.

My point is, experts are not always right. I was not always correct. But, the odds are in the expert's favor. And that is all you can hope for - that you pad the odds in your favor — social distancing, washing hands, masks, and vaccinations. None of them are perfect; none of them guarantee you won't get the virus - they each add to the odds in your favor.

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by riley2011

It’s really none of your business. Some people have good reasons.

It is everyone's business, actually. This is a public health issue.

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

...refusing (or undecided about) getting get an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

...refusing (or undecided about) about getting vaccinated when the unvaccinated, if infected, have an 80-90% of no or mild symptoms and the vaccine confers only a 5% upgrade in those chances, against a backdrop of an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

As an "undecided" I do struggle with the possibility that the anti-vaxxers might be hindering herd immunity. That's why I started this thread, and I appreciate all the thoughtful responses (this is soooo much better than Facebook!).

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.

If one makes a measured, rational choice not to be exposed to something potentially deadly, even if it hinders herd immunity, that person is choosing to protect him or herself from death or severe illness - the risk of which appears to be greater than infection with Covid. Further, Covid is projected to die out, as viruses do, after it runs its course of two to three years, with or without mass vaccination. So how is all this a lack of bravery? It seems quite sensible to me, but maybe I'm biased.

And as for the "selfish" tag - same line of thought. Is it really selfish to choose not to run headlong into something that can kill or cause severe illness? Isn't that what all of us have been choosing for at least the last year?

How about if undecideds just want to wait until the vaccines receive full FDA approval? Are they still the scum of the earth?

Walrus....I didn't realize you were "undecided". Why I thought you were playing devil's advocate, I just don't know??? Hmmm. "Scum of the hearth" is a bit harsh but those are your words, not mine.

I surely hope you can come to a decision that you will be happy with. Personally, I have no worries what so ever about these mRNA vaccines being harmful in the long run. Am I being naive? Maybe, but I have to trust someone/something in my life and besides my husband; I do trust our government .

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

Got it. That does clarify. So you're saying people who got the vaccines knowing there could be "horrible side effects or worse" are brave because they knew about that serious and real potential threat and opted to get jabbed anyway.

Yes. As I just said in my previous post, I do trust our government so I honestly believe these vaccines are very safe. As an aside.....I didn't give it two quick thoughts about this "new" Shingrix vaccine possibly being harmful and I doubt many people who opted for this vaccine gave it a second thought either. I think the fear for the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines is that the mRNA technology is the first time it is being used for vaccines so that is creating fear in people.

The mRNA technology has been studied for decades and these are not "rushed" vaccines as many people believe. I only wish I were still around 20 years from now to see if these vaccines do, in fact, harm no one in the long run as so many people feel they will. But, then again, maybe 20 years isn't enough time to tell is these mRNA vaccines will do harm. Maybe 50 years would do it. Then, maybe 75 years would suffice.

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Way to go! You are a good "KISS"er!!!!!!!!!!

I won't tell my husband you said that. LOL.

[Love2Swim]

Originally Posted by Aces4

I won’t sugar coat my stance. This is America and this medical bullying needs to stop. Let’s all make a list of medical necessessities WE think should be implemented and then work to have them enforced, right?

If you want the vaccine, get it. Leave those alone who have decided against it.

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

Its not "medical bullying" when it is in the interests of public health. This has been discussed ad nauseam. The health of the country as a whole is more important than the wishes of individuals. I'm not going to sugar coat it. This incessant whining from individuals who won't wear masks and refuse to get vaccinated is really getting old. Look at the people all over the world who would give anything to be able to receive the vaccine. India comes to mind right now where hospitals have run out of beds and oxygen. And interestingly, according to polls, the anti vaccine people tend to be overwhelmingly a member of one political party. Wouldn't it figure.

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

I so want to trust the government too. But it's not easy. I worked for the federal government for 31 years and even I don't trust parts of it, considering our history of egregious "adventures." This makes getting an experimental, unapproved vaccine even more questionable, in my opinion. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't think so (I wouldn't have been able to maintain my federal job if I were, for one thing):

Let’s not forget* the Swine flu vaccine debacle...or...
-The Tuskeegee experiments
-MK Ultra
-Dosing military recruits with LSD without knowledge or consent
-Experimental nuclear explosions in Nevada leading to thousands of cases of thyroid cancer and deaths
-Allowing thousands of people to die of AIDS before it was taken halfway seriously
-Selling bombs to Iran and drugs to American citizens to fund the Nicaraguan contras
-Dishonesty about why we invaded Iraq
-Other experiments on prisoners, the military, children (!), the mentally ill, and pregnant women

Hmmm. I was just reading about a current study investigating how and why people are overly trustful and willing to follow without question the orders of the "authorities." May or not be relevant here. Just sayin.'

*Sources available on request, or you can easily find
them yourself

I read about the Swine Flu vaccine debacle. Seems no one died; just that it was not necessary for the mass inoculation and was money wasted. No?

Agree, government hasn't always been on the "up and up' but still, to me, no reason not to trust our government. Our government is much more trustworthy than many other governments in the world. And that, you can take to the bank.

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by Swoop

If you don’t believe it’s still a trial consider this:
How long will the vaccine protect you for - unknown
Will you require a booster shot - unknown
Will it protect you against variants - unknown
Will there be any long term side effects - unknown
That sounds like a trial to me...

Yes, there are unknowns. If you prefer to call this the trial period, so be it. I'll go with that. But, the vaccine having emergency authorization is good enough for me. I'm aware people are waiting for full FDA approval to feel safer to take the vaccine.

There are also unknowns about Covid and what damage the disease will offer in the years to come. We already know that Covid causes "long hauler" side effects and that is even to people who did not have symptoms of the disease when they were infectious. I'd rather risk the "unknown" from a vaccine than the devastating "knowns" from having Covid. But....that is just me. I don't expect everyone to rationalize as I do. The irony of these "long haul" side effects is that people have had relief from those long haul side effects after receiving the Covid vaccines. So, there is that.

Can Vaccination Improve Symptoms for People with Long COVID?

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

See, people who try to think things through, such as yourself, I respect your hesitation. I don't agree with it. But I absolutely respect it. Because we get differing information regularly from the CDC, because this IS a new thing, because the vaccine IS a new vaccine, because we know, that there's a lot we still DON'T know...you are hesitant. And I respect that.

I would ask you though, to consider the philosophical side of the equation, and put science vs. evidence aside for a minute. I'll talk about me. Feel free to fill it in with yourself, as applicable.

I'll be 60 next week. I have no children. I was a Girl Scout. I was taught that it is our duty as human beings to at least TRY to leave this world in a better place than we found it. Even if we fail, it's up to us to try.

My generation has done a bang-up job in helping and hindering the human race. We've thoroughly scorched it, and we've run ourselves ragged to heal it. Right now, we are faced with a quandry.

We can take what we _believe_ to be a very minimal risk, in order to eradicate a virus that has already killed around 3 million people worldwide in just one year, sent tens of millions to hospitals, put hundreds of millions out of work, and affected several billion families in one way or another. All in a single year. We can take a leap of faith that a vaccine will drastically reduce, if not completely eliminate, this particular threat against the next generations.

Or, we can take what we _believe_ to also be a somewhat minimal risk, and take a leap of faith that we won't get sick, and the virus won't mutate as a result of our lack of immunity, and that future generations won't be affected anyway.

I have no personal dog in the fight of future generations. Its not, as they say, my problem. But as a human being whose generation has created this and other traumas on this planet, I feel it my responsibility to choose the risk that is most likely to help the majority, rather than the risk that is most likely to help only myself.

Both are small risks. Both of these risks have unknown outcomes. The difference is that one might save millions in the future, and the other one might only save me.

All I can say is "WOW". OBB, you hit this one out of the park. Thank you so much for these eloquent words. You make me feel better about myself for taking the plunge and doing my part. You are my hero!