[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by GoodLife

I was assured by another Doctor on this forum that ProPublica.org was a very good source. Their article quotes studies done by Institute of Medicine, Inspector General for Health and Human Services, and the Journal for Patient Safety.

Here's another one from John Hopkins. Are these guys bean counters too?

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S.

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. - 05/03/2016

So you are saying all these Doctor/hospital deaths are bogus? It's all the nurses fault?

Can you post a link to another unbiased source showing the true number? I think that some might think a source from Doctor organizations might be biased.

I'm not trying to knock Doctors down, several of them have saved my life, just comparing the death rates vs Police shootings of unarmed civilians. I can change the title to "medical error deaths" if that's more accurate.

The problem is not with your source, the problem is WHAT they are counting. In the example I gave, how can you possibly believe it was "the nurse's fault". The problem is that regulatory authorities have decided to count meaningless nonsense in the "death" statistics. My girlfriend is a nurse that works in informatics. They now want to count "near mistakes" What the heck is a "near mistake" ?

Now, there are some "bad" doctors out there, and there are mistakes they make that cause patient deaths. I could tell you stories that would scare you to "death". But the magnitude is nowhere near what these studies report, again, most of these "mistakes" are irrelevant.

[GoodLife]

Originally Posted by roscoguy

Your police shooting numbers seem to be taken from a source other than the Washington Post. According to their actual database, there were 55 police shootings of unarmed people in 2019. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ings-database/
Then, there are other sources that are not limited to only shootings. According to Mapping Police Violence, there were as many as 114 deaths of unarmed people caused by police in 2019. National Trends — Mapping Police Violence

I don't really understand the point of this thread. Maybe still trying to downplay the obvious police misconduct leading to George Floyd's death by comparing unrelated numbers of police shootings to medical errors? They both are preventable causes, but for the most part so are deaths from auto accidents, heart attacks, workplace accidents, strokes, drownings & lightning strikes. No real correlation that I can see.
Are you saying that the medical field needs to be held more accountable for accidental deaths? If that's it, then what would police-related deaths have to do with it? Puzzling...

Looks like WAPO updated their numbers. So in 2019 55 unarmed people were killed, 15 Black and 25 White. Doesn't matter, still a miniscule problem when you look at the millions of encounters Police have with civilians every year. In many of these cases, juries find Police not guilty of intentional murder. In many cases it is just human error in a split second decision.

WAPO also said

“The number of black and unarmed people fatally shot by police has declined since 2015." (by 60%)

“Fatal police shootings are relatively rare events in a country where nearly 40,000 people die from firearms each year. Hundreds of thousands of police officers work in America, most of whom will never fire their guns on duty.”

According to statistics reported to the FBI, 89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019. Of these, 48 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 41 officers died in accidents. Weapons. Offenders used firearms to kill 44 of the 48 victim officers. Four officers were killed with vehicles used as weapons.

15 of the LEOs killed in 2019 were killed by Blacks. Where's the big hubbub about that?

Every year 1000's of blacks are murdered by blacks. Where's the hubbub about that?

Black on white violent crime is much larger than white on black crime. No hubub

I'm pretty sure a jury will convict the Police of murder or something less in Floyd case. I don't have to downplay Police misconduct, the actual numbers show it's way less of a problem than Black on Black murders, and at least in 2019, no bigger a problem than Blacks murdering Police officers.

The point of this post is to show the scale of these issues. Whether it's Doctors or nurses etc, several well known entities like John Hopkins have found that over 200,000 die each year due to medical errors.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by GoodLife

The point of this post is to show the scale of these issues. Whether it's Doctors or nurses etc, several well known entities like John Hopkins have found that over 200,000 die each year due to medical errors.

Your a smart individual, why are you having trouble understanding this? 200,000 patients/year do not die DUE to medical errors, 200,000 people die and HAD a so called medical error during their hospital stay. There is no strong cause and effect correlation at work with these statistics. It's like getting your oil changed on Monday and dying in a car accident Friday----the oil change did not CAUSE the accident.

[GoodLife]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Your a smart individual, why are you having trouble understanding this? 200,000 patients/year do not die DUE to medical errors, 200,000 people die and HAD a so called medical error during their hospital stay. There is no strong cause and effect correlation at work with these statistics. It's like getting your oil changed on Monday and dying in a car accident Friday----the oil change did not CAUSE the accident.

What you say is probably true. Can you post a source for the true numbers? I assumed that these organizations like John Hopkins know what they are doing.

Besides, I can prove my point without the medical error deaths. I would bet Doctors Intentionally kill more people per year than Police kill unarmed civilians. The Ohio Dr is on trial for killing 25 with fentanyl, that's 50% of the Police total.

But I don't think Doctors are murdering Nazis because a few of them are bad. I play golf with several of them Nor do I think Police are racists who kill blacks indiscriminately. The actual numbers are miniscule in relation to other stats.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by GoodLife

What you say is probably true. Can you post a source for the true numbers? I assumed that these organizations like John Hopkins know what they are doing.

Besides, I can prove my point without the medical error deaths. I would bet Doctors Intentionally kill more people per year than Police kill unarmed civilians. The Ohio Dr is on trial for killing 25 with fentanyl, that's 50% of the Police total.

But I don't think Doctors are murdering Nazis because a few of them are bad. I play golf with several of them Nor do I think Police are racists who kill blacks indiscriminately. The actual numbers are miniscule in relation to other stats.

Unfortunately there is no source for "true" numbers, because the powers that be aren't interested in true numbers. NY State health dept. spends many millions of dollars to collect this data, so the last thing they want is for the data to show nothing of significance.

Perhaps our problem is that the comparison between medical "mistakes" and police deaths is apples and oranges. I agree with your point that the number of deaths caused by police is very small compared to the number of interactions the police have with citizens. And the media is quick to overlook that in the recent highly publicized deaths, the victims all were resisting arrest. If they had just followed the instructions of the LEO's, as they are required to do by law, they would be alive today. That's no excuse for the indifferent use of excessive force displayed by the officers involved in those cases, but if you don't go swimming in the ocean, you don't get eaten by sharks.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by GoodLife

So we had a black man who was killed during an arrest by Police. This led to huge protests/riots/arson.looting all over the country.

So I looked at the numbers, and thought, what other professions kill unarmed civilians, by mistake or on purpose?

According to the Washington Post database, a total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is:

White: 19
Black: 9
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 3
Total 41

In some of these cases Police were charged and tried, others were ruled justifiable.

According to the DOJ Police have more than 50 million encounters with citizens every year, traffic stops, domestic violence, burglaries etc etc. Any of these encounters can turn violent. Of course you would like for the number to be zero, but Police killings of unarmed citizens are statistically insignificant compared to the number of encounters.

So chance of unarmed civilian being killed by Police = 41/50,000,000 = 0.00000082

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media. More recent studies estimate the number is now more than 200,000 per year.

How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals? — ProPublica

Average number of hospitalizations per year in US is 36,000,000

so chance of being killed by medical error is 200,000/36,000,000 = 0.00555

A small chance, but much much larger than Police chance

You can say well Doctors don't kill people on purpose, these are mistakes. Same can be said for Police, in a few cases they might be convicted of murder, but mostly they are ruled as manslaughter or excessive use of force. If Police really wanted to kill a lot of people of any race they could, they are armed and good shots. The miniscule numbers of this actually happening are statistically insignificant.

Do Doctors ever kill on purpose? Unfortunately they do.

Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murdering patients with fatal doses of fentanyl.
His trial has been delayed because of covid, so we will see what a jury says about this.
That's just one Doctor who killed more than 50% of what Police did last year.

How many Doctors go to jail every year for malpractice or murder? Do they avoid prosecution because their insurance pays out large sums?

To err is human for some but not all?

Good facts and reasoning. Unfortunately, it does not help the anarchists intent on destroying the country.

[GoodLife]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Unfortunately there is no source for "true" numbers, because the powers that be aren't interested in true numbers. NY State health dept. spends many millions of dollars to collect this data, so the last thing they want is for the data to show nothing of significance.

Perhaps our problem is that the comparison between medical "mistakes" and police deaths is apples and oranges. I agree with your point that the number of deaths caused by police is very small compared to the number of interactions the police have with citizens. And the media is quick to overlook that in the recent highly publicized deaths, the victims all were resisting arrest. If they had just followed the instructions of the LEO's, as they are required to do by law, they would be alive today. That's no excuse for the indifferent use of excessive force displayed by the officers involved in those cases, but if you don't go swimming in the ocean, you don't get eaten by sharks.

Correct. I also think most of the armchair quarterbacks posting here about Police brutality have no idea what it is like to be one, especially in high crime areas.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by Bikeracer2009

Y

Why do other minorities thrive that were never slaves? That didn't have the same history?

It's funny that your comment will stand as the last word and mine will get deleted. Who says white privilege doesn't exist. Come to TV and see it for yourself.

No one in the states has been a "slave" in America. Being black is not an excuse for failure. It's not a reason for failure. It is more like an accusation against others for their failure. I do not care if someone says they have friends that are black or that they had neighbors or coworkers that were black. Coming from a multi-ethnicity family, I don't make excuses for my failures and do not sympathize with anyone else in my family for their failures. A failure is something temporary whereas a loser is one that refuses to pick themselves back up when they have a momentary failure. History is full of those that failed and later became successful. Slavery is NOT an excuse for today's people.

"White privilege?" How does the Villages prove "white privilege?" There are a lot of folks in the Villages that are on a very limited and fixed income. Being "white" is not being "privileged." Making excuses for someone's failure to pick themselves up and better themselves does not help them. Throwing money at the situation does not solve the problem. One does not expect an opportunity to drop in their lap. One seeks the opportunity and proves they deserve or qualify for the opportunity.

Being "white" is not a privilege, it's a fact of genetics/DNA. Driving is a "privilege." To say that being "white" is special is being RACIST. Someone saying they lived near, with or as a black is presuming black is on a lower level than white and therefore is another indication of racism.

Jesus died on the cross so that ALL LIVES MATTER.

[Doc Akron]

What a really inane comparison. Use a little bit of common sense.

[LoisR]

You're just making excuses for abusive police. Even one aggressive bigoted cop is too many. Police need better training, need to hire college graduates only, realize that even one abusive or racist incident is grounds for termination, and limit those with famiy backgrounds in law enforcement.

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by LoisR

You're just making excuses for abusive police. Even one aggressive bigoted cop is too many. Police need better training, need to hire college graduates only, realize that even one abusive or racist incident is grounds for termination, and limit those with famiy backgrounds in law enforcement.

Yes, police always need better training. There is never ENOUGH training. Especially when it comes to choke holds. Choke holds have been used for decades and used successfully to subdue violent suspects. If done properly, they are safer than using a taser. Chokes are used in Judo competition, even in the Olympics. BUT, if one does it improperly it can be fatal. Personally, I do not like choke holds but then again I do not like to see officers of the law killed by violent suspects either. Since the ratio of abusive or bad cops to good cops is sooo small I see this only as another political push in an election year. It is NOT a racial thing or you would see many more incidents with minorities than whites. Many police departments DO require college studies for hiring or send their candidates to a local college for learning. But, there is also the point that police depts do not pay well enough to hire those with higher education. It is unfortunate that there are those officers that are abusive. That is not even close to the norm and should not be construed as such. Having family that is in or has been in law enforcement should have absolutely NO bearing on hiring.
Remember, you only get what you pay for.

[jacksonbrown]

Originally Posted by rakopacz@comcast.net

Unfortunately many cops are racist and enjoy murdering blacks.

And, that's what we have come to expect from a newly registered member with two posts.

Fess up. What's your other User Name?

[roscoguy]

Originally Posted by GoodLife

Looks like WAPO updated their numbers. So in 2019 55 unarmed people were killed, 15 Black and 25 White.

Just to be clear, 55 unarmed people were shot to death by police; there were 114 unarmed people killed in all.

Originally Posted by GoodLife

WAPO also said

“The number of black and unarmed people fatally shot by police has declined since 2015." (by 60%)

Which is at least some sort of progress & there was relatively little hubbub until Floyd's death. The spark that lit this flame seems to be the attitude of Officer Chauvin shown in the video, plus the fact that he used the neck restraint for no good reason to begin with & then kept the pressure on until way after George Floyd quit breathing. It seems to me to be easy to understand why people were incensed by this video and how it reopened old wounds. (Once again: I am NOT justifying rioting or looting!)

Originally Posted by GoodLife

The point of this post is to show the scale of these issues. Whether it's Doctors or nurses etc, several well known entities like John Hopkins have found that over 200,000 die each year due to medical errors.

It's an obvious tragedy that so many die from medical errors, but it's just not the same thing at all. You seem hellbent on denying or at least ignoring the racial/racist component of the whole George Floyd issue. This has been beaten around ad nauseum on numerous threads, many of which you've started and/or commented on. Why keep picking at the same scab, day after day after day?

[Byte1]

"You seem hellbent on denying or at least ignoring the racial/racist component of the whole George Floyd issue."

Is there evidence that the death was racially motivated? Isn't the presumption that it was racist by someone, make them the racist?

Booker T Washington:
“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”

"There is a certain class of race problem-solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public."

"Being black is not an excuse for being a failure" and "white privilege"

Looking at some numbers that tell a different story.

Facts come from sentencingproject.org

“The war on drugs and harsher sentencing policies, including mandatory minimum sentences, fueled a rapid expansion in the nation’s prison population beginning in the 80’s. The resulting burden on the public sector led to the modern emergence of for-profit private prisons in many states and at the federal level.”

The facts presented on this website state the following;

The United States has the largest private prison population.
This includes immigration detention facilities.
Private prisons pay far less, train less and have higher numbers of riots, deaths, contraband, lockdowns and discipline.
Recidivism is much higher with private prisons.
Profit seeking creates a race to the bottom to cut cost.
The two largest private prison corporations are Core Civic and GEO.
These two companies also own halfway houses, ankle bracelet monitoring company and prison healthcare services.
The Obama administration wanted to phase out private contracts which showed a modest decline in in private prison use however, in 2017 Jeff Sessions announced the reversal of this plan. This reversal was followed by prosecutors seeking tougher sentences.
Immigration detention centers are required to maintain 34,000 detainees. 2018 Trump asked Congress for $1.2 Billion to add another 15,000 beds
U.S. General Accounting Office study showed no substantial savings using private prisons.
In order to insure future profits, private prison companies have joined with lawmakers, corporations and interest groups to advocate for mandatory minimum sentences, three strikes laws and truth-in-sentencing, all of which contribute to higher prison populations.
GEO is the biggest contributor to Trump’s cash flow. I’m not attacking Trump. Many politicians are receiving cash payment from private prison companies.

40 years of unprecedented growth in our prison population, fracturing of low-income communities of color, laws meant to keep prison beds full, no incentive to rehabilitate prisoners and less chances of getting a good job after prison. This is the revolving door of our prison system.

Between 1980 and 2015 the number of people incarcerated in America increased from from roughly 500,000 to over 2.2 million.
21% of the world’s prison population is in America but America only has 5% of the world’s population.
1 in 37 adults is under correctional supervision.
Blacks and Hispanics are 56% of the prison population.
4 times as many whites use drugs than blacks but blacks have 6 times more drug charges.

Imagine being a poor black child in America. You’re told that the police want to put you in jail. The police presence in your neighborhood is much higher than in middle class white neighborhoods. When a white person sees a police car drive through his neighborhood he probably thinks it’s a good thing and when a black person sees a cop they think the cops are looking to round up some prisoner$$. Stop and frisk laws require citizens to stop and tell a police officer their name. Florida Statute 901.151 if you want to look it up. A cop can detain you if they believe you have committed a crime, was committing a crime or was about to commit a crime.

Now, imagine you’re a 23 year old black guy walking down the street in Aurora Colorado and you haven’t done anything wrong. The police stop you and ask for your identification. You ask why? You are now resisting and so the cop gets annoyed and this leads to him being a little heavy handed. It’s Obvious to you that this isn’t going to end well. You tell him you want to cooperate but just want to know why he stopped you. He grabs you and tries to take you to the ground. You tell him that you’re an introverted person, just different and just want to be left alone. The cop puts you in a chokehold as backup arrives. You tell them you can’t breathe as you lay there face down unable to move. They put you in handcuffs and called first responders to inject you with a ketamine. You suffer a heart attack on the way to the hospital and days later you are brain dead. Your name is Elijah McClain.

There's billions of dollars being made by putting people of all colors in prison and keeping them there for as long as possible, especially the black population.

Would you want to be a poor black person?

Being white has its privileges here in the villages. A person posted recently that a person came to her door selling roofing services. She stated that the person's race wasn't something she wanted to mention because of the political environment but we all knew what race she was talking about. This guy didn't do anything wrong according to her own story but she insisted he was a scammer! She told him to leave her property and followed him to the neighbors door where she advised her neighbor not to trust this person. As it turned out from the replies to her post, this young man was not a criminal but an honest guy just doing his job. The only thing this guy did wrong was being born black.