[Lindsyburnsy]

It seems with all the people that are hired to advise on the evacuation, everything possible is being done. Being that the public shouldn't be privvy to every move made due to security reasons, maybe being a Monday morning quarterback should be on hold for the time being. We are out of a 20 year war and tough decisions have to be made. I guess we could have just evacuated like we did with the Kurds and left everyone behind. Apparently, that was acceptable.

[tvbound]

Originally Posted by Lindsyburnsy

It seems with all the people that are hired to advise on the evacuation, everything possible is being done. Being that the public shouldn't be privvy to every move made due to security reasons, maybe being a Monday morning quarterback should be on hold for the time being. We are out of a 20 year war and tough decisions have to be made. I guess we could have just evacuated like we did with the Kurds and left everyone behind. Apparently, that was acceptable.

"I guess we could have just evacuated like we did with the Kurds and left everyone behind."

THAT is a 'stain of shame,' that can never be washed away.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

All I know our govt handled this whole thing incredibly poorly.

No, you don't know that, you think that.

Without knowing the alternatives, you can not say if they did poorly. You can only say the results are awful.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Toymeister

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.

Thank you for your service and the insight.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Toymeister

I've been to Afghanistan, four tours

First you need to grasp the size of Afg, next you need to think how you get around Afg. Essentially, there is one road, the ring road, to get from many bases (FOBs) to another. This is not interstate level pavement, or pavement at all.

This one will be hard to grasp for many:

The US has said repeatedly that we are leaving, sometimes we even close a base only to reopen it again. Obama did something similar in 2015 when announcing a certain troop level only to step back from that number (this is a fact not a political statement).

So, let's say you are in Afg and another politician says 'we're out of here' do you believe it? Probably not. Let's say you are working at Bagram (BAF), now you have to dash over to Kabul, over the mountains. Just 70 miles, no problem right, just like a trip to Daytona! Eh, no.
US forces avoid that trip with MRAPs.

Suffice to say unless you caught a flight from a base you were screwed. Easy?, again no as the base shrinks more and more of the base perimeter becomes the responsibility of Afghan forces. Competency and the Afghan forces are two words which do not share the same sentence. If they don't let you in you're toast.

I could go on. Ask questions if you want more details.

One more thing, the State Dept might not know how many US citizens are in AFG but I will tell you 99% of the citizens are contractors and 99% of those are DoD contractors and with absolute certainty we do know who they are and if they left AFG. I personally supervised that program.

Thank you, and to add to your excellent reply, we TOLD them we were getting out in May. That was the agreement we made. Then for whatever reason, we delayed the departure until now. That would emphasize your point of people hearing but not believing. I expect (I do not know) that the pull-out was delayed to better prepare for the exit.

And, also, I EXPECT/THINK the plan was to trust the Afgan military to hold for at least a few weeks or months so we could transfer security to them as we pulled out. What appears to have happened is the Taliban told the Afgan military, stand down and accept a bribe or die. And they chose to stand down. At least that is what appears to have happened. If so, yes, it was a serious mistake to trust them - I don't know what we did, if we did. It is just conjecture on my part.

[Wyseguy]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

There are Americans in Afghanistan who aren't officials, soldiers, connected to anyone of import. They're just normal people who for whatever reason went to Afghanistan. Maybe they have family there and are visiting. Maybe their spouses have family there and they're visiting. Maybe they're doing missionary work.

For whatever reason, ordinary American citizens are in Afghanistan. There's no singular list of everyone who's there. It's entirely possible that some people have chosen to stay and finish doing whatever they came there to do. It's also entirely possible that they didn't feel any need to inform YOU that they were there, and that they were there on purpose, and that they wanted to stay.

So YOU will never know why those people were "left behind." If even a single un-named unknown unimportant American citizen stays in Afghanistan on purpose, you won't ever learn that.

So why would you even ask what the logic is of "leaving Americans behind?"

The administration can't get ALL Americans out, because the administration doesn't have a list of ALL Americans who are there. That may be why they didn't state they would get ALL of them out. They said they'd get any who wanted to get out, out.

Those who choose to stay, will choose to stay.

The problem though, is that there are Americans who are in remote areas of the country who might not even realize that the American government wants to know if they plan on staying or not. Those people - may also get left behind, and discover that some day, when they decide to leave, they won't be able.

The intention though is to get all Americans out who want to leave.

So it is your position that any US Citizen who wants to leave, and has expressed that the/she wants to leave, will be gotten out?

[dewilson58]

We have hundreds and hundreds of military personnel strategizing, strategizing, What If'g, What If'g and yet we are told..............."No one predicted an early collapse of the good guys / the quick take-over of the bad guys." (the chicken vs. the egg)

I can't buy this.

[MDLNB]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

Again, arm chair quarterbacking is easy. Real life is never easy. If you KNOW what information was reviewed and what decisions were made, please inform us. Otherwise, I stand behind my country and my presidents decision.

I know that saying that I actually support something will be taken as political, while all the complaints are obviously not political. If I get banned, so be it. I am proud to be an American and support the Presidents decision to withdraw. I am confident he did was he and his advisors thought was best. I am sorry it didn't work out - that is war. It is messy, it is deadly and it is never the people that sent us there that serve and die.

The conversation has NOTHING to do with patriotism and your support for whichever political group you imply. And do not even imply that anyone other than you is a patriot.
I am not complaining about how it was handled, merely pointed out that emergency evacuation plans are available and should have been adhered to. I know they exist because I have been part of the planning and writing such plans for several countries.

I do not know of ANY military member that suggests that this operation has been done by SOP or that it has even been successful. Hopefully, for our American citizens, things will work out. Anyone in that country now, surely has a plan to exit that country, along with contingency plans. I will bet that many that are now stranded or blocked from getting to the airport, have plans to travel to the border. Some of the contracted folks will likely count on their company to furnish an evacuation team that will swoop in and rescue them. Most likely, any gov employees have been evacuated already.

In my opinion, if it had been left to the military to handle, the evacuation would have gone much more smoothly.

And yes, it IS Monday and the count down is moving swift. Personally, I am glad we are leaving that Mad Max country that is hardly good for anything. It is unfortunate that the women and children have to suffer, but that country does not wish to be tamed.

[Wyseguy]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

It is either incompetence, or uncaring disregard for the lives of US Citizens and Allies who are being abandoned. Regrettably it seems a cold uncaring disregard. When asked about the people falling to their death from planes as they tried to escape the Taliban, Biden said "C'mon man, that was four or five days ago". I can not be too hard on him, as I believe he has a mental issue. Those who defend him on the other hand... Just terrible people. So desperate to make it seem like they have accomplished something that they turn their backs on men, women and children.

[Koapaka]

Originally Posted by John Mayes

If the intention was to get all Americans out that wanted to leave, there would have been a plan to do so….there wasn’t. Additionally, if there was a plan, we could have possibly avoided losing 13 military personnel.

When I read the post you replied to here my immediate thought was "written like a true civilian....this person has never served in uniform".

Those of us that have get your point perfectly....NO man left behind....EVER!

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by dewilson58

What is the logic of leaving Americans and Allies behind???

If it's political, just state "political" and let the thread live.

Otherwise, what is the logic???

People first, Equipment second, Troops last seem logical.

An estimated 300 US people are "stuck" in Afghanistan that would prefer to leave. Leaving by aircraft became difficult because the Taliban delayed Americans at checkpoints and ask for their names and addresses. Many found out about that practice and stayed at home. Others that may have gotten through the checkpoints were stopped by crowds at the gates. Basically, chaos prevailed!

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

There are Americans in Afghanistan who aren't officials, soldiers, connected to anyone of import. They're just normal people who for whatever reason went to Afghanistan. Maybe they have family there and are visiting. Maybe their spouses have family there and they're visiting. Maybe they're doing missionary work.

For whatever reason, ordinary American citizens are in Afghanistan. There's no singular list of everyone who's there. It's entirely possible that some people have chosen to stay and finish doing whatever they came there to do. It's also entirely possible that they didn't feel any need to inform YOU that they were there, and that they were there on purpose, and that they wanted to stay.

So YOU will never know why those people were "left behind." If even a single un-named unknown unimportant American citizen stays in Afghanistan on purpose, you won't ever learn that.

So why would you even ask what the logic is of "leaving Americans behind?"

The administration can't get ALL Americans out, because the administration doesn't have a list of ALL Americans who are there. That may be why they didn't state they would get ALL of them out. They said they'd get any who wanted to get out, out.

Those who choose to stay, will choose to stay.

The problem though, is that there are Americans who are in remote areas of the country who might not even realize that the American government wants to know if they plan on staying or not. Those people - may also get left behind, and discover that some day, when they decide to leave, they won't be able.

The intention though is to get all Americans out who want to leave.

I agree with the content of this post.

[jbartle1]

My guess, is that EVERYONE on this post is GUESSING! What is the point. Why after 20 years of training Afghans, did they lay down their arms. I'm glad it's almost over. Can't think of any reason we are there to settle THEIR civil war.

[ureout]

what I don't understand is that the treaty with the taliban was signed in Feb, of 2020... why didn't American citizens start leaving then?? also why were most of the armed forces removed before the evacuations were complete??

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by jbartle1

My guess, is that EVERYONE on this post is GUESSING! What is the point. Why after 20 years of training Afghans, did they lay down their arms. I'm glad it's almost over. Can't think of any reason we are there to settle THEIR civil war.

I agree with you, and I read an article that indicated the Taliban was bribing afghan soldiers to lay down their weapons. That would make sense to me, but I don't know.