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jdulej 09-16-2021 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2004991)
True that! And WALL ST. and corporate managers tend to have a ONE quarter time-horizons on their decisions. Japan and some European countries have business leaders the have 5-year plans. Japan uses a "Circle of Management" philosophy that they got from a book written (probably 1950) in the US, but was ignored. It means that upper management MUST pay attention to the lowest line workers because they are close to the action and therefore, the most knowledgeable.
That RARELY happens in the US, which adopted a top-down approach like the US military after its success in WW2. Last time I checked Japanese CEOs were considered GREEDY if they made more than 10 to 15 times more than their average line workers. Compare that to US CEOs. And then, even realize that it is the reason why the average person does NOT even realize how and why the whole US wealth gap problem has developed. And why it may be impossible to reverse!

I have always been amazed and confused by the reaction "normal" people have to any proposal to somehow make the 1% (really more like the .1%) pay their fair share. After all, they have the most to lose and get the most benefit from the government. Who wields the most power over congress and the pres - you and me or Jeff Bezos, the Kardashians, etc?
As an example - when AOC (yes, that AOC) suggested adding an additional tax bracket that kicked in only AFTER income passed $50,000,000 for a year (fifty million) you would have thought the world was ending. We have 7 brackets thanks to the Ryan/Trump tax give away, why does adding one more mean the end of America?

OrangeBlossomBaby 09-16-2021 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy1 (Post 2004620)
Americans should be willing to pay what ever price American manufacturers want to charge, patriotism.

You should be willing to pay everyone a wage that allows them to afford to pay whatever price American manufacturers want to charge.

jdulej 09-16-2021 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2005001)
You should be willing to pay everyone a wage that allows them to afford to pay whatever price American manufacturers want to charge.

Agree!

jimjamuser 09-16-2021 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 2004577)
Yup, true. And with intercontinental commerce on the rise, we can not compete. We need to rethink what we do and how we do it. I personally think Elon Musk is showing us the way. His competitors around the globe (space, cars, etc) are trying to figure out how to catch up, and lots of negative misinformation is spread about him and his companies because they can't compete with the truth. He does crazy sh!t and does it faster and better than anyone. He is not motivated at getting rich, all his profits go into his pet project (SpaceX to Mars Colony). He wants to make things better for others.

A long time ago, people worked hard, saved, and tried to make a better life for their kids. It seems that is no longer a trendy thing to do. Today is "I got mine, screw you".

It is not a matter of people NOT being willing to work. They have just had their ambition to better the next generation beaten out of them. The ladders for upward mobility have been burned up by things like systemic elimination of Unions, the artificial difficulty for some groups to become homeowners, constant competition from legal and illegal immigrants and a "greed is good" mantra instead of a "teamwork and a rising tide lifts ALL boats approach. There are MANY other reasons like, what are all the lobbyists REALLY contributing to society? Maybe they need to be boiled in oil? (Just joking!)
How about limiting the size of farms and ranches? How about turning the clock of tax policy back to the 1950s that people today agree were superior in many ways Sociologically (not Scientifically).
Made in America was a big part of the healthy attitudes and social equality enjoyed by Americans in the 1950s. Also, foreign countries had not YET infected Americans with LETHAL drugs like beginning in the (about) the 1980s and continuing and getting worse today.

jimjamuser 09-16-2021 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlcooper70 (Post 2004627)
You are now seeing that manufacturing is moving back to the US in some fields .. automation makes it cheap enough anywhere. And we have seen supply chain disruptions get the attention of our leaders finally. Intel is building a $30 billion manufacturing plant for high end chips because we are worried China will take over Taiwan where all the high end chips are made. You will see changes over the next few years and globalization and monopolization is being questioned.

An excellent post! Very informative!

jimjamuser 09-16-2021 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpcurt (Post 2004667)
Boeing is the largest US manufacturing exporter. We also, thanks to Pres Trump, have become the world's largest producer of oil and gas, which we export.
True, we lost hundreds of manufacturers during the Obama years...recall Obama saying 'manufacturing will never return to the US'.
Intellectual property is a huge product for the US.
But here is a crazy example: golf balls. COSTCO makes its Kirkland golf balls in China. Why? Making golf balls is not a labor-intensive process, but somehow it makes economic sense for COSTCO to make them in China and pay to ship them to the US. The raw materials cost the same in US, manufacturing machines cost the same, labor costs are low.
So what is different? Taxes, regulations (like OSHA, etc.), ease of doing business.

I disagree with the content of that post.

jdulej 09-16-2021 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005014)
I disagree with the content of that post.

I agree with your disagreement. I wrote a rebuttal to the post, but it apparently did not get posted or was deleted. Bottom line - moving jobs to the lowest paying, least restrictive place has been going on for at least 50 years and was considered "smart business practice" until it wasn't all of a sudden. I think Obama was trying to be realistic, and despite some feeble attempts to change it, it remains true that manufacturing, for the most part, is NOT coming back. Hi skilled, specialized work - yes and that is good. The put A into B stuff is gone forever IMO.

jimjamuser 09-16-2021 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luggage (Post 2004750)
Macro economics. Money goes where it is most efficiently used . Consumers look at price first . Don't you buy the cheapest gasoline. Did you buy the most expensive home even though others were less? When you shop for food do you compare prices? Many consumer goods are not made in America, many industrial items are like tractors, but even those companies understand you need today to spread factories to their buyers . I could go on , but it then becomes a book

I look for brands 1st and price 2nd. For example, when I buy a new car (once every 15 years) I look at Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. I don't even look at the price of a Chevy or Chrysler. Ford has some quality recently, but not enough for me yet. I would prefer to buy American, but in new cars and trucks, the quality difference is too large For tools, I prefer Craftsman and Kobalt. I would decide between them individually and look at the price. I do NOT need the best top-quality professional-grade tools.
So, in general, I lean Ameican, but take in ALL qualities, including price.

jimjamuser 09-16-2021 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 2004919)
So what is the point of this thread? American mfgrs have abandoned plants in the US because it is more profitable to make them overseas and sell them here. Seems like capitalism at work to me.

Buying something BECAUSE it was made in America as opposed to because it is the best price and quality seems dumb to me. Kind of like voting based on party instead of candidates qualifications. I am registered NPA and always vote for the person and not a party. The same goes for my purchases.

There is something that I always prefer to buy American and even LOCALLY American and that is, any local produce because it tastes better and has more vitamins and nutrients in it than produce from further away. And less wasted oil to support Saudi Arabia. I also like to support the small farmer rather than the big farmer or rancher. Big farms are usually using excessive fertilizer instead of rotating crops and wasting more water, fuel oil. and other resources than small farms. Small farms benefit larger numbers of families than big farms and ranches. In Ca. large pecan farms EVEN get greater priority for WATER than people. That IS some seriously inverted priorities. And that shows the problems caused by the POWER of big farms and their lobbyists.

jimjamuser 09-16-2021 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geodyssey (Post 2004920)
In the USA, nothing is more important than making money. Not family, not nation. Just keep making money. It's how score is kept. And we're #1.

Not necessarily #1. Switzerland has greater income and wealth per person. And Many, many countries have a greater "quality of Life" than the US! We rank around 25th.

jimjamuser 09-16-2021 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SacDQ (Post 2004957)
Most military spending is for made in America equipment. Other than that not very much. Not even our food staples are from the USA. Next time you grocery shop read the labels. Supporting the weekend farmers market is the best place to still find USA PRODUCE

Yes, good post!

blueash 09-16-2021 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merrymini (Post 2004764)
We should certainly make sure that medical products are controlled by us so another country cannot hold us hostage. Remember the antibiotics made in china to the tune of 90 percent? What if they wanted to withhold it during covid? Certain chips and other manufacturing items should not all be under the control of other countries. I try to buy American whenever possible and reasonable to do so. Let’s get back to work.

You, or someone else, have made this statement before, never with a link to assess the truth of the claim. So I'll simply say that you are wrong. And if you actually care about the truth you can use Google to find real data.

It is true that there are legitimate concerns about drug supply chains but making up a statistic is not a legitimate way to make a point.

JMintzer 09-17-2021 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 2004911)
Yes I did, and the administrators helped by making it a 2 week mandatory go stand in the corner.

Only 2 weeks? Piker! :a040::a040::a040:

GrumpyOldMan 09-17-2021 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005043)
Yes, good post!

In the case of food, local grown is better in many ways.

For one, things like "Fresh Apples" are typically harvested and warehoused for up to 6 to 9 months. They are then almost completely lacking in the nutrients they had when harvested.

Shipping food in from literally 10's of thousands of miles takes time and they have to be harvest early to not ripen before they hit the stores.

If is can be grown locally, it should be.

GrumpyOldMan 09-17-2021 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005263)
Only 2 weeks? Piker! :a040::a040::a040:

:MOJE_whot:

jimjamuser 09-17-2021 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 2005269)
In the case of food, local grown is better in many ways.

For one, things like "Fresh Apples" are typically harvested and warehoused for up to 6 to 9 months. They are then almost completely lacking in the nutrients they had when harvested.

Shipping food in from literally 10's of thousands of miles takes time and they have to be harvest early to not ripen before they hit the stores.

If is can be grown locally, it should be.

Yes, good information.......and I would like to add that the red delicious variety of apple for SOME (?) reason is practically DEVOID of any vitamins and minerals. And it is not even DELICIOUS ! It tastes like wet cardboard to me. I ALWAYS, always buy the Granny Smith variety of apple. It has been laboratory tested to be the most nutritious of the commonly available apple variety. It does taste sour, but better than wet cardboard. The red delicious variety was the only apple available in the early years of supermarkets (like about 1950 where I lived). It was chosen (like a lot of foods) not for its food value, but because it could be shipped from great distances and not bruise. It also was attractive looking, but DEVOID of taste and nutrition. So, America.........change your ways and live the better, healthy life.......EMBRACE the Granny!!!!!!!

JMintzer 09-17-2021 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdulej (Post 2004999)
I have always been amazed and confused by the reaction "normal" people have to any proposal to somehow make the 1% (really more like the .1%) pay their fair share. After all, they have the most to lose and get the most benefit from the government. Who wields the most power over congress and the pres - you and me or Jeff Bezos, the Kardashians, etc?
As an example - when AOC (yes, that AOC) suggested adding an additional tax bracket that kicked in only AFTER income passed $50,000,000 for a year (fifty million) you would have thought the world was ending. We have 7 brackets thanks to the Ryan/Trump tax give away, why does adding one more mean the end of America?

Tax give away?

The government doesn't GIVE you anything. They take from you...

JMintzer 09-17-2021 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2005001)
You should be willing to pay everyone a wage that allows them to afford to pay whatever price American manufacturers want to charge.

For every job?

JMintzer 09-17-2021 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005010)
It is not a matter of people NOT being willing to work. They have just had their ambition to better the next generation beaten out of them. The ladders for upward mobility have been burned up by things like systemic elimination of Unions, the artificial difficulty for some groups to become homeowners, constant competition from legal and illegal immigrants and a "greed is good" mantra instead of a "teamwork and a rising tide lifts ALL boats approach. There are MANY other reasons like, what are all the lobbyists REALLY contributing to society? Maybe they need to be boiled in oil? (Just joking!)
How about limiting the size of farms and ranches? How about turning the clock of tax policy back to the 1950s that people today agree were superior in many ways Sociologically (not Scientifically).
Made in America was a big part of the healthy attitudes and social equality enjoyed by Americans in the 1950s. Also, foreign countries had not YET infected Americans with LETHAL drugs like beginning in the (about) the 1980s and continuing and getting worse today.

THE 50'S?

You mean when agriculture was LESS efficient?

When tax policies allowed the 1% to pay LESS that they are now?

Be careful what you wish for...

JMintzer 09-17-2021 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005014)
I disagree with the content of that post.

Yet you offer no rebuttal... How odd...

JMintzer 09-17-2021 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005038)
There is something that I always prefer to buy American and even LOCALLY American and that is, any local produce because it tastes better and has more vitamins and nutrients in it than produce from further away. And less wasted oil to support Saudi Arabia. I also like to support the small farmer rather than the big farmer or rancher. Big farms are usually using excessive fertilizer instead of rotating crops and wasting more water, fuel oil. and other resources than small farms. Small farms benefit larger numbers of families than big farms and ranches. In Ca. large pecan farms EVEN get greater priority for WATER than people. That IS some seriously inverted priorities. And that shows the problems caused by the POWER of big farms and their lobbyists.

More and more of your preferred Craftsman tools are being made in China and other parts of Asia...

JMintzer 09-17-2021 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005041)
Not necessarily #1. Switzerland has greater income and wealth per person. And Many, many countries have a greater "quality of Life" than the US! We rank around 25th.

Who is doing this "ranking"?

jimjamuser 09-17-2021 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005341)
THE 50'S?

You mean when agriculture was LESS efficient?

When tax policies allowed the 1% to pay LESS that they are now?

Be careful what you wish for...

AS I recall from 8th-grade math, 0% is less than 1%. Amazon has paid 0% TAX in several recent years! And over the last 40 years, men controlled by lobbyists have caused America to have the HIGHEST WEALTH DISPARITY of ALL the free Western countries in the WORLD. That IS one #1 distinction that NO ONE in these United States should or WILL go around BRAGGING ABOUT!!!!!!!! Thank me very much!

jimjamuser 09-17-2021 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005344)
More and more of your preferred Craftsman tools are being made in China and other parts of Asia...

I actually agree with that fact and its implied conclusion. I want to bring back more manufacturing to the US. I would NEVER have let it leave if I were the decider. US Robotics when fully implemented WILL allow the US to free itself from Chinese, Vietnamese, and Mexican tyranny by manufacturing - because of cost equalization with those other countries. Congratulation - we agree!!!!!

retiredguy123 09-17-2021 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 2005269)
In the case of food, local grown is better in many ways.

For one, things like "Fresh Apples" are typically harvested and warehoused for up to 6 to 9 months. They are then almost completely lacking in the nutrients they had when harvested.

Shipping food in from literally 10's of thousands of miles takes time and they have to be harvest early to not ripen before they hit the stores.

If is can be grown locally, it should be.

What about those Balance of Nature capsules? Do they have any nutrients?

JMintzer 09-17-2021 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005400)
AS I recall from 8th-grade math, 0% is less than 1%. Amazon has paid 0% TAX in several recent years! And over the last 40 years, men controlled by lobbyists have caused America to have the HIGHEST WEALTH DISPARITY of ALL the free Western countries in the WORLD. That IS one #1 distinction that NO ONE in these United States should or WILL go around BRAGGING ABOUT!!!!!!!! Thank me very much!

Corporations shouldn't have to pay ANY taxes...

The taxes should be paid on the end user. Either their employees, investors/shareholders (when they reap dividends), etc...

Otherwise they are being taxed twice...

Putting things in ALL CAPS doesn't make it any more true, nor correct...

JMintzer 09-17-2021 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005410)
I actually agree with that fact and its implied conclusion. I want to bring back more manufacturing to the US. I would NEVER have let it leave if I were the decider. US Robotics when fully implemented WILL allow the US to free itself from Chinese, Vietnamese, and Mexican tyranny by manufacturing - because of cost equalization with those other countries. Congratulation - we agree!!!!!

How would you have stopped it?

And are you aware why it left in the first place?

GrumpyOldMan 09-17-2021 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005424)
Corporations shouldn't have to pay ANY taxes...

The taxes should be paid on the end user. Either their employees, investors/shareholders (when they reap dividends), etc...

Otherwise they are being taxed twice...

Putting things in ALL CAPS doesn't make it any more true, nor correct...

Well, should our shouldn't there is the law. The 34,000 pages of Federal Tax code is crafted to ensure they do not.

How to correct that is complicated and isn't going to happen as long as our corporate citizens are allow to vote with their money. The issue with that is the disparage between the voice regular citizens have (amount of money they can spend) compared to any one large corporation. We have been basically disenfranchised by proxy.

BTW, I agree completely, companies should not pay "income tax", it simply gets passed along to the eventual consumer. However, I can assure you if we repeal all corporate tax they will not pass a cent of that along to the consumer - sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

We need a complete tax overhaul, and that is not going to happen in this world of cooperation and friendly government.

GrumpyOldMan 09-17-2021 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005425)
How would you have stopped it?

And are you aware why it left in the first place?

I hear a stern finger waging might have gotten them to set aside profits because of public embarrassment. NOT.

jdulej 09-17-2021 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005338)
Tax give away?

The government doesn't GIVE you anything. They take from you...

You are correct, it does not give me anything. It gave the highest tax brackers (if that's a word) a nice, hefty lowering of their tax liability. If your rate goes down, that's a give back from what it would have been if nothing was done.

jimjamuser 09-17-2021 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005424)
Corporations shouldn't have to pay ANY taxes...

The taxes should be paid on the end user. Either their employees, investors/shareholders (when they reap dividends), etc...

Otherwise they are being taxed twice...

Putting things in ALL CAPS doesn't make it any more true, nor correct...

Please, pardon me, I just became sick to my stomach!

JMintzer 09-17-2021 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 2005426)
Well, should our shouldn't there is the law. The 34,000 pages of Federal Tax code is crafted to ensure they do not.

Except they DO pay taxes. I pay Corporate taxes each and every year. I try to minimize that amount, but I've never paid nothing...

Quote:

How to correct that is complicated and isn't going to happen as long as our corporate citizens are allow to vote with their money. The issue with that is the disparage between the voice regular citizens have (amount of money they can spend) compared to any one large corporation. We have been basically disenfranchised by proxy.

BTW, I agree completely, companies should not pay "income tax", it simply gets passed along to the eventual consumer. However, I can assure you if we repeal all corporate tax they will not pass a cent of that along to the consumer - sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

We need a complete tax overhaul, and that is not going to happen in this world of cooperation and friendly government.
And that money will be taxed as income to the shareholders...

And yes, the tax code needs to be revamped... Many have run on that platform. None have been elected...

JMintzer 09-17-2021 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005554)
Please, pardon me, I just became sick to my stomach!

The truth can be a bitter pill...

JMintzer 09-17-2021 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdulej (Post 2005439)
You are correct, it does not give me anything. It gave the highest tax brackers (if that's a word) a nice, hefty lowering of their tax liability. If your rate goes down, that's a give back from what it would have been if nothing was done.

LOL! No, it gave the people who actually paid taxes a lowering of their tax liability.

If you were in a bracket that paid zero FEDERAL income taxes, how exactly could your taxes be lowered below zero?

And the fact that you saw the previous changes as a "gift" speaks volumes...

JMintzer 09-17-2021 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 2005428)
I hear a stern finger waging might have gotten them to set aside profits because of public embarrassment. NOT.

I notice you ignored my question as to why businesses left in the first place...

jimjamuser 09-17-2021 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdulej (Post 2005439)
You are correct, it does not give me anything. It gave the highest tax brackers (if that's a word) a nice, hefty lowering of their tax liability. If your rate goes down, that's a give back from what it would have been if nothing was done.

The Federal Government gives you and I protection from being invaded by Russia. It gives all people access to Interstate highways instead of each State and city charging a turnpike fee. It pools money together to provide research at Universities, which created the Polio Vaccine and the space program, which everyone bragged about in the1960s. And lead to velcro. It provides a court system to adjudicate problems too big for any one state. Basically, the list is endless.

JMintzer 09-17-2021 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjamuser (Post 2005559)
The Federal Government gives you and I protection from being invaded by Russia. It gives all people access to Interstate highways instead of each State and city charging a turnpike fee. It pools money together to provide research at Universities, which created the Polio Vaccine and the space program, which everyone bragged about in the1960s. And lead to velcro. It provides a court system to adjudicate problems too big for any one state. Basically, the list is endless.

Oh, FFS!

You know I wasn't talking about those things...

Here is the EXACT comment I made...

Quote:

Tax give away?

The government doesn't GIVE you anything. They take from you...
TAX GIVE AWAYS. We were talking about TAXES

But, once again, you deflect...

jimjamuser 09-17-2021 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005560)
Oh, FFS!

You know I wasn't talking about those things...

Here is the EXACT comment I made...



TAX GIVE AWAYS. We were talking about TAXES

But, once again, you deflect...

Government 101 - in order for government to group together the funds needed to start and finish BIG projects that can NOT be handled by small neighborhoods or clubs or other SMALL entities - these funds MUST come from taxes paid into government by LARGE numbers of taxpayers. Tax revenue in ........becomes costs out to fund LARGE PROJECTS!

GrumpyOldMan 09-17-2021 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005555)
Except they DO pay taxes. I pay Corporate taxes each and every year. I try to minimize that amount, but I've never paid nothing...

Yes, but, living in TV, I expect you are not a multi-billion dollar public company. So, yes, MOST corporations/companies pay taxes, but their taxes are a drop in the bucket compared to what the big boyees would be paying... without the big money advantages...

jdulej 09-18-2021 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2005557)
LOL! No, it gave the people who actually paid taxes a lowering of their tax liability.

If you were in a bracket that paid zero FEDERAL income taxes, how exactly could your taxes be lowered below zero?

And the fact that you saw the previous changes as a "gift" speaks volumes...

It amazes me how people defend the 1% and look down on the poorest 20% as do nothing low-life. Where else do the richest get away with just about anything (maybe Russia). Occasionally, one of them really screws up (Jeffery Epstein come to mind) and is dumb enough to get caught. Otherwise, they are free to make an endless pile of money, hide behind their corporate walls and complain if asked to pay a little closer to their fair share. The people who benefit the most and have the most to lose should pay the most. That is the spirit behind progressive taxation (which is what we currently have with the Ryan/Trump tax plan is)


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