[kkingston57]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

My wife just pointed out that Beau of the 5th Column, on Youtube, did a piece this, and pointed out that the Supreme Court has as far back as 1981 ruled that the police have no obligation or legal responsibility to PROTECT people. The only legal obligation is to arrest them. If this is true, then the chances are that nothing can be done (like suing the officers). They according to this are not required to do anything to protect people. So much for the Protect and Defend on police cars.

I understand what she said about Protect, but do beleive that this is for a situation when a crime has not occurred, such as a situation when a person is threatened. On this case there was an active shooter, when they came out. 376 police arrived in a town which had 20,000+/- residents.

[mikemalloy]

Originally Posted by Sarah_W

ALERRT is the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training center in Texas. They provide various training to Law Enforcement personnel. Their report on the responding officers actions is very telling. The report can be downloaded here: Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training:
Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training

The most horrifying issue to me, is after Ramos crashed the pickup he was driving two employees from a Funeral Home began walking toward him to offer assistance. He began shooting at them and they fled. An officer witnessed this, stopped his vehicle and with his own AR had Ramos in his sights. The officer then called his supervisor for permission to take the shot. He knew Ramos was dangerous and he knew that Ramos was walking across a field toward the school carrying a rifle. He asked a second time for permission but Ramos reached the unlocked door of the school. That officer could have ended this tragic event at the beginning.

Officers entered the school within 3 minutes of Ramos entering the school and failed to press into the classroom and engage the shooter. Instead Ramos was left unchecked for 77 minutes. Precious time that would have saved many of the lives of those who bled out during that time, including the children who were still alive dialing 911 and the teacher who was wounded and dialed 911. Had medical help been available in those early minutes the death toll would have been much less.

The interim report from the Texas House of Representatives investigation can be found here: https://static.texastribune.org/medi...0Committee.pdf

I'm a professional firearms instructor and teach people to be competent with their firearm, as in accurate and fast.

It is grossly apparent to me in watching the video of the conduct in the hallway that the responding officers were totally not trained for this. Anyone stepping into that hallway would be afraid. The brave person can push through the fear and with the confidence of their training, get the job done. The coward stays in the hallway while children bleed out.

There are practical solutions that will stop so many of these mass shootings if our society will just implement them. The same goes for the daily killings in cities like Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, etc.

You have to wonder if the delay in response by the supervisor was because of recent riots after the use of deadly force by police. We've seem demonstrations and riots after police have legally stopped an innocent woman from being stabbed. We've seen deaths that resulted after police were first fired upon. We've seen the town of Ferguson racked by riots after an officer killed a thug who tried to take his gun. The list goes on and on and the resulting impact on life and death decisions by police has been tragic.

[ElDiabloJoe]

Ahhh, law enforcement. The job everyone thinks they can do better than the people that actually do it. Master's degrees from television shows, apparently.

I normally just tune out all law enforcement critics. People who have not experienced (first hand) the job really do not understand what it takes. They do not understand decades of living at tactical alert, at being privy to the goings-on of people and the true nature of dangers in the world and how quickly and unexpectedly they appear. People are more concerned about getting tickets or calling on cops because they don't like the neighbor's wind chimes. They do not know of 90% of the dangers and encounters that occur, only the ones the news picks up and publicizes.

All that being said, there were two large failures, in my estimation. Primarily, those in charge were cowards - political cowards. Paralysis by analysis. Too afraid to make a mistake, better to do nothing at all mentality. Have you ever seen the old T-shirt from the L.A. riots? Sure wish I still had one: a waffle pattern boot print real big across the back, and the words, "Footprint of a coward." The twist is that the waffle pattern was made up of rank insignias. Clever shirt.

Secondarily, the line level offices that were too afraid, (whether personal safety or career safety) or too morally bankrupt (thank you modern society) to step up and override the primary causation factor, the leadership.

Fear of being dragged into Federal court to be charged criminally or civil court to be charged personally and the media fanning of flames has taken its drastic toll on law enforcers and their actions or lack thereof.

Do not underestimate the daily attacks they undergo - the outright disrespect, hatred, and assaults that no other profession endures. No one routinely shoots at lawyers, as much as people don't like them, they just make jokes at their expense. Law enforcement endures exponentially more dangers than ANY other profession, and they are constantly second-guessed by every TV watcher in America (and abroad apparently since Prince Harry has opted to weigh-in now). Even here, in this thread of supposed law enforcement supporters, the armchair criticism is unmistakable - and amateur.

I find the individual officer's response disgusting, but understandable.

I find the weasel-like response by the leadership to be treasonous to their oath - but it is neither unprecedented (Talking to you, 1992 LAPD) nor uncommon (every city, big and small, pandering to politicians to maintain their careers). Even the L.A. County Board of Supervisors last week voted 4-1 to give themselves the unconstitutional authority to fire the County Sheriff. The lawfully elected by the people County Sheriff. So much for an independent law enforcement leader who answered only to the electorate.

I suppose this is Progressivism. Defund the police (training), etc. If so - the USA is damned to further decay, and eventual failure. Tragic.

[Michael G.]

I ask a guy years back: Why he felt he needed to carry a gun."

His reply was:
"I would rather have that choice to protect my family, myself or other citizens then to
stand by and see them being shot then living with the thought of doing nothing."

[Blackbird45]

No matter what the issue people will have strong opinions. The day it affects them or their children directly their opinions change.

[LianneMigiano]

That report TOTALLY DISPROVES the often-quoted excuse that "a good guy with a gun" is the solution to protecting us all from the bad guy with a gun! There were more than 350 law enforcement officers at that site and some of those children were more than likely murdered AFTER their arrival on-scene.....

[Geodyssey]

Originally Posted by jswirs

I truly do not know how those "trained" police can live with themselves.

They are in line for excellent pensions, much better than 95% of people in the private sector.

That's how.

[Vikingjunior]

Originally Posted by mikemalloy

you have to wonder if the delay in response by the supervisor was because of recent riots after the use of deadly force by police. We've seem demonstrations and riots after police have legally stopped an innocent woman from being stabbed. We've seen deaths that resulted after police were first fired upon. We've seen the town of ferguson racked by riots after an officer killed a thug who tried to take his gun. The list goes on and on and the resulting impact on life and death decisions by police has been tragic.

bingo! You win the internet award for today.

[babcab22]

I agree.

[Sarah_W]

Originally Posted by mikemalloy

You have to wonder if the delay in response by the supervisor was because of recent riots after the use of deadly force by police. We've seem demonstrations and riots after police have legally stopped an innocent woman from being stabbed. We've seen deaths that resulted after police were first fired upon. We've seen the town of Ferguson racked by riots after an officer killed a thug who tried to take his gun. The list goes on and on and the resulting impact on life and death decisions by police has been tragic.

I think the initial delay from the officer that had the shooter in his sights while he was still outside is due to the media treatment of Law Enforcement and lack of support from politicians. It may also be a flaw in that departments protocols. The officer already knew the Shooter had taken shots at the two men who were walking toward the crashed pickup, so the question of armed and dangerous was readily apparent.

Everything that occurred in the hallway is a flaw in response protocols, in my opinion. Also many did not have the courage to engage the shooter. From viewing the video, of those in the hallway the only ones who acted appropriately were older men. The officer who caught shrapnel in his head (from concrete being hit) was the first to engage within 3 minutes of the Shooter entering the building. The officer engaged but had nobody to back him up. The paramedic on the scene later on was also older and immediately began directing people. He was the only one in view of cameras that took up a leadership role.

I don't know the answer in addressing the media who demonizes Law Enforcement and makes heroes and martyrs of criminals. There should be some way to have truth in reporting and accountability on media for their role is social discourse.

[Sarah_W]

Originally Posted by LianneMigiano

That report TOTALLY DISPROVES the often-quoted excuse that "a good guy with a gun" is the solution to protecting us all from the bad guy with a gun! There were more than 350 law enforcement officers at that site and some of those children were more than likely murdered AFTER their arrival on-scene.....

I respectfully disagree. You can have all the good guys with guns but if they do not engage it is for nothing. We can see how a good guy able to respond almost immediately at the Greenwood Mall shooting was able to stop a mass shooter. The shooter had a rifle and several magazines, apparently intent on doing much harm. The good guy had a handgun. Even though he was outgunned, the good guy engaged and stopped the bad guy from killing many more. He had the solution and used it.

[Wyseguy]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

So much for the whole Texas "right to life" agenda. One man shot many already-born children and 400 police officers didn't intervene. Maybe if it was a woman shooter it would've gone differently. Then again - when was the last time a woman committed a mass shooting at a school? Hm.

Ahhh one of those. Horrible when people stand on the bodies of children to push their agenda.

[Wyseguy]

Originally Posted by Blackbird45

You have to face reality, to blame the police for not doing what was expected of them is understandable, but they also want to go home at the end of their shift and see their families. The shooting at the Tops Supermarket in Buffalo, the guard did what was expected of him and died, and the shooter kept killing people. Yesterday a good guy with a gun did stop a shooter in a food court, but that is rare. There is a problem in this country, and it cannot be solved with a good guy with a gun or trying to figure out who is mentally unfit to own a firearm. It might not be what people want to hear and I'm sure it will not eliminate all mass shooting, but there has to be more control over the firearms. It could be restricting what type firearms can be sold or making the owners financially responsible for the weapon in their possession. I'm not sure exactly what, but whatever we are doing at the moment is not working.

the Center for Disease Control, in a report ordered by President Obama in 2012 following the Sandy Hook Massacre, estimated that the number of crimes prevented by guns could be even higher—as many as 3 million annually, or some 8,200 every day.

[Scorpyo]

Originally Posted by ElDiabloJoe

Ahhh, law enforcement. The job everyone thinks they can do better than the people that actually do it. Master's degrees from television shows, apparently.

I normally just tune out all law enforcement critics. People who have not experienced (first hand) the job really do not understand what it takes. They do not understand decades of living at tactical alert, at being privy to the goings-on of people and the true nature of dangers in the world and how quickly and unexpectedly they appear. People are more concerned about getting tickets or calling on cops because they don't like the neighbor's wind chimes. They do not know of 90% of the dangers and encounters that occur, only the ones the news picks up and publicizes.

All that being said, there were two large failures, in my estimation. Primarily, those in charge were cowards - political cowards. Paralysis by analysis. Too afraid to make a mistake, better to do nothing at all mentality. Have you ever seen the old T-shirt from the L.A. riots? Sure wish I still had one: a waffle pattern boot print real big across the back, and the words, "Footprint of a coward." The twist is that the waffle pattern was made up of rank insignias. Clever shirt.

Secondarily, the line level offices that were too afraid, (whether personal safety or career safety) or too morally bankrupt (thank you modern society) to step up and override the primary causation factor, the leadership.

Fear of being dragged into Federal court to be charged criminally or civil court to be charged personally and the media fanning of flames has taken its drastic toll on law enforcers and their actions or lack thereof.

Do not underestimate the daily attacks they undergo - the outright disrespect, hatred, and assaults that no other profession endures. No one routinely shoots at lawyers, as much as people don't like them, they just make jokes at their expense. Law enforcement endures exponentially more dangers than ANY other profession, and they are constantly second-guessed by every TV watcher in America (and abroad apparently since Prince Harry has opted to weigh-in now). Even here, in this thread of supposed law enforcement supporters, the armchair criticism is unmistakable - and amateur.

I find the individual officer's response disgusting, but understandable.

I find the weasel-like response by the leadership to be treasonous to their oath - but it is neither unprecedented (Talking to you, 1992 LAPD) nor uncommon (every city, big and small, pandering to politicians to maintain their careers). Even the L.A. County Board of Supervisors last week voted 4-1 to give themselves the unconstitutional authority to fire the County Sheriff. The lawfully elected by the people County Sheriff. So much for an independent law enforcement leader who answered only to the electorate.

I suppose this is Progressivism. Defund the police (training), etc. If so - the USA is damned to further decay, and eventual failure. Tragic.

What a horrible response. No one wants to hear truth, experience, logic and reasoning. I do, so I agree with you 110%. My son retired from NYPD. He used to share experiences with me. One comes to mind. 2 officers were in a shootout with a perp in Manhattan. The cops shot dozens of rounds. Only one round hit and wounded the perp but in the process a few bystanders were hit by bullets from the police. So, what guarantee is there that the police would not have shot some children in the shootout? Maybe some would have been shot so, yes, political cowardice and analysis paralysis by the leadership probably was the main ingredient to this disaster. Would they (the police) have stormed into the classroom if instructed to do so? I would like to believe most would have done so. We'll never know but it was a no-win situation the minute that low-life creep got into the classroom.

[YeOldeCurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

They just issued a 77-page report on the Uvalde school shooting citing "systemic failures". I think it could have been a one-page report saying that the armed police officers on the scene didn't enter the classroom and shoot the suspect because they were afraid of getting shot themselves.

OP is a truthteller