[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

Me, no, I don't believe businesses have the right to deprive people of basic human rights. And I don't care if they are "private." The Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are "people" because individual humans are behind corporate decisions to grant or withhold equal treatment.

I don't believe anyone has the right to deprive people of basic human rights. But going to McDonalds or shopping at Wal-Mart is not a basic human right.

And a business has the right to choose who they cater to. This is a capitalist country, so the 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' rules are understood. In the same way, 'no mask, no service' has been the norm for nearly a year. And that is perfectly understood.

Notice I said understood - not agreeing with it, but it's a small price to pay when we see the light at the end of the tunnel.

So, proving vaccination? Well, I can see the issue that would cause. Tough one there...

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by Sailohio

I think our governor is being consistent with Republicans restricting government control by opposing Covid passports. He would be supporting government control if he allowed our state to require them.

Two sides to the coin and that's what I meant by political overlap and no cut and dried answers in modern American policy. I'm glad you see the conundrum.

Yes, vaccine passports undermine freedom. The challenge is deciding who's more adversely affected - the individual, or businesses? Interfering in the freedom of either is anathema to conservative principles.

Nothing is easy in politics so we might as well get used to living together as harmoniously as possible.

[GeriS]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports

Who says conservatives approve of a vaccine passport? Might as well wear a gold star. Do you really want to go down that road for something that has a 99.xxx% recovery rate? Don't you get what has been pushed on us? Keep everyone afraid. If it's so bad wear are all of the dead people who never wore masks?

[chrissy52]

They should not required vaccinations for everything that should be a person's choice we open up the borders everybody comes in they do not get vaccinated you're not even tested why should us American have to follow some rules by the government that should be uncalled for

[Heyitsrick]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

So what's your position, Rick? Should businesses be free to choose? If so, that's a classic conservative position. If not free to choose whom they serve, well, that's DeSantis' proposal.

Me, no, I don't believe businesses have the right to deprive people of basic human rights. And I don't care if they are "private." The Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are "people" because individual humans are behind corporate decisions to grant or withhold equal treatment.

Actually, it was your question to answer. And now we see that you mean "they should be free to choose (well, except when there are exceptions, that is)".

See, the problem you have is that you want to paint DeSantis with this broad brush, claiming he's being anti-conservative somehow. But he doesn't see this as a "freedom to choose for businesses" issue. He sees it as a governmental intrusion issue on the people. DeSantis was elected by the people of Florida, not the private businesses of Florida. He's saying the people have the right to choose, unencumbered by other concerns.

You're free to disagree with his point of view, of course. But it's a little odd that not requiring his state's residents to have to show a vaccination passport is somehow anti-conservative. Well, that is unless you buy into the notion that conservative folks only care about businesses and not individuals.

Side note: your note to the mods to retire this thread because people aren't getting it is due to the way you wrote part of the post:

Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal.

What proposal? Having a vaccine passport? Yes, we know now you actually meant DeSantis's "proposal" to prohibit requiring a vaccine passport in the state. You've had to clarify what you meant more than once, when simply editing the original post could have sufficed.

[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by GeriS

If it's so bad wear are all of the dead people who never wore masks?

You mean the 2,821,235 worldwide or just the 564,399 from the US?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Is that all it means?????

Because all the buzz is that you will be REQUIRED to have one to travel, go to stadiums, restaurants etc---which IMHO is a violation of the first amendment and probably the 4th, 9th, and 10th as well

It's only a violation of those amendments if the government forces businesses to require and enforce those restrictions.

Businesses have the right to require and enforce those restrictions if they choose to already. I mean heck - in some states, a business is allowed to refuse service to a homosexual, on the grounds that their sexual preference violates the business owner's freedom of religion.

But go ahead and tell us all about how bad it is for Publix to make you show the vaccine card you ALREADY GOT when you got vaccinated, violates your freedoms.

(clue: it doesn't. You still have the freedom to go to Winn Dixie, where they don't check those cards. Or to Walmart, where you could show them the 8 of Clubs and they'll nod it through. Or Amazon, where they have no way of checking anyway)

[petiteone]

Originally Posted by C. C. Rider

The idea of "vaccine passports" is contradictory with what the vaccine advocates contend is true. They contend that people who get the vaccine will be safe from catching and transmitting the virus. If this premise is true, then they should have no worry about being around someone who hasn't had the vaccine. Perhaps the person had the virus and recovered with no problems... in which case, their immunity is probably as good as someone who had the vaccine. Even if they haven't had the virus, the unvaccinated person is the one at greater risk by being there than the vaccinated person, so why should they be prohibited from any public place?

From the Medical Journals I've read - At this stage it is stated that the vaccine doesn't protect one from getting COVID, it is effective in preventing vaccinated individuals dying from it. How much or how long a person vaccinated or one recovering from Covid is protected long term is still unknown. (I'm a retired MD)

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by GeriS

Who says conservatives approve of a vaccine passport? Might as well wear a gold star. Do you really want to go down that road for something that has a 99.xxx% recovery rate? Don't you get what has been pushed on us? Keep everyone afraid. If it's so bad wear are all of the dead people who never wore masks?

Unbelievable. Geri, please scroll up and see where the other misunderstandings have been been put straight. Thank you.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Tmarkwald

Agreed

And I'd be mighty irritated if my vacation was impacted by somebody who refused to get a vaccine and then got sick.

100% proof of vaccination or you don't travel. Very Simple.

Originally Posted by Cobullymom

If your protected by the vaccine then why do you care? Apparently you don’t trust it..

For easier comprehension on your behalf, Co Bully Mom:

Let's say you book a 12-day cruise. Let's say a few people who refused vaccines, get sick on the ship. Now you end up with a cruise ship with people who are sick, and spreading disease to all the other passengers, some of whom might also not be vaccinated. You won't be able to dock anywhere, no one at any port will allow anyone to debark. Everyone will be quarantined.

That is what he means by "impact." Not that he himself personally will get sick, but the entire vacation will be impacted by people who are in the same hotel, on the same airplane, on the same cruise ship, who have refused to vaccinate and are showing symptoms of COVID.

[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

For easier comprehension on your behalf, Co Bully Mom:

Let's say you book a 12-day cruise. Let's say a few people who refused vaccines, get sick on the ship. Now you end up with a cruise ship with people who are sick, and spreading disease to all the other passengers, some of whom might also not be vaccinated. You won't be able to dock anywhere, no one at any port will allow anyone to debark. Everyone will be quarantined.

That is what he means by "impact." Not that he himself personally will get sick, but the entire vacation will be impacted by people who are in the same hotel, on the same airplane, on the same cruise ship, who have refused to vaccinate and are showing symptoms of COVID.

It's almost like 'guilt by association'. We may not be guilty(infected), but we're on the same plane, ship, resort,,,, as people whom become infected, so we are affected as well.

[donassaid]

Requiring people to have an "experimental" vaccine that has caused thousands to get sick and dozens to die is irresponsible and unconstitutional. All this for a virus with over a 99% survival rate.

[donassaid]

The Constitution guarantees the rights of individuals, not businesses.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Tmarkwald

I don't believe anyone has the right to deprive people of basic human rights. But going to McDonalds or shopping at Wal-Mart is not a basic human right.

And a business has the right to choose who they cater to. This is a capitalist country, so the 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' rules are understood. In the same way, 'no mask, no service' has been the norm for nearly a year. And that is perfectly understood.

Notice I said understood - not agreeing with it, but it's a small price to pay when we see the light at the end of the tunnel.

So, proving vaccination? Well, I can see the issue that would cause. Tough one there...

My personal thoughts on this (up until now I have been arguing a point, not offering my feelings about it):

When we get vaccinated, we get a card. This is the current situation. I wish the card was smaller, business-card sized so it could be laminated if someone wanted to do so, and kept in a wallet without folding it.

I would be FINE with having to present it for travel over the north or south border by car, or anywhere by boat or airplane. I would also be FINE with people being told they cannot board the ship/plane without a match of that card to their ID.

I would ALSO be FINE with a stamp added to actual normal passports, to show that a person has received that (or any other) vaccine, so that no one would need that smaller card as long as they bring their passport - which also serves as identification, AND as - well - a passport.

I would be fine with any business having a policy: You may either enter and shop here wearing a mask, OR you may enter and shop here without one if you show us your card proving you were vaccinated. You may do either one.

I personally would love to go shopping without a mask on. I look forward to the day when it's considered acceptable to do it again. But I also enjoy the freedom I feel in knowing that I am immunized against the virus. As someone who is now free to enjoy my immunization, I have absolutely positively zero problem with showing anyone who wants to see it, that card. In fact I posted it on my facebook account, which is open to the public.

I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with showing their covid vaccine card. You can even cover up the ID number with a little post-it strip so they can see your name and the clinic's official stamp and the dates of whichever vaccine you had, but not your personally-identifying ID number.

It's really not a big deal, except to people who are choosing to make it one.

[donassaid]

Well said.