[Justus]

Originally Posted by thelegges

As of this morning I truly believe this is still a free country, that I fought for. Those who choose to get the vaccine, it is your choice. Unless your immediate family, friends, news, print, or net, made that decision for you.

The OP didn’t mention the drug used in the 50s to keep pregnant women from miscarriage. DES was widely used, with little study, or actual proof, if it actually worked.

While the drug didn’t seem to have an adverse to patient. The children born, were diagnosed with multiple types of cancer. Of course it took up to 18 years for cancer to show up and be diagnosed.

Agent Orange, took close to 40 years, before there was a connection.

To those who deemed the OP AFRAID, I find any human who researches, considers the pro and cons, and make their own personal choices, should not be bullied into changing their thoughts. Their body, their life.

Many healthcare workers that I have been involved with over the last 50 years, are taking a step back, and not being vaccinated at this time. Some will say healthcare workers should be forced to be vaccinated. But those in childbearing years, pregnant, or immune compromised, who have worked through this, and are still standing without the vaccine, I applaud them for making their own choices. I won’t want them to find out 30-40 years later, possible complications, like DES, or Agent Orange. Most on this site would never live long enough if there were issues.

Imposing your beliefs, or thoughts, or actions, onto someone, is removing their freedom of living in this country. Even if you think you are right, and they are wrong.

Spot on! And Thalidamide, a vaccine developed in the early '60's to stop morning sickness, as well, resulted in thousands of babies with tragic results...phocomelia and hemimelia. Also, in 1957, during the Asian Flu pandemic, a vaccine was fast-tracked, just as the Covid vaccine was, that killed and made seriously ill many Americans, one of which was a family member of mine. In the end, we all, thankfully, still have a choice not to be vaccinated. This IS (still) a free country after all!

[Boston-Sean]

Originally Posted by Tmarkwald

WOW - well the entire medical community and the CDC disagree.

If I have already had COVID-19 and recovered, do I still need to get vaccinated with a COVID-19 vaccine?

Yes. Due to the severe health risks associated with COVID-19 and the fact that re-infection with COVID-19 is possible, vaccine should be offered to you regardless of whether you already had COVID-19 infection. CDC is providing recommendations to federal, state, and local governments about who should be vaccinated first.

At this time, experts do not know how long someone is protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19. The immunity someone gains from having an infection, called natural immunity, varies from person to person. Some early evidence suggests natural immunity may not last very long.

We won’t know how long immunity produced by vaccination lasts until we have more data on how well the vaccines work.

Both natural immunity and vaccine-induced immunity are important aspects of COVID-19 that experts are trying to learn more about, and CDC will keep the public informed as new evidence becomes available.

Ya, the CDC hasn't been covering itself in glory on this question. Short answer: No, don't bother getting the vaccine if you've already had Covid.

CDC Investigation | Full Measure

[pattytracey]

I agree don’t trust the vaccine

[dtennent]

Originally Posted by dhdallas

Myself, my family, my neighbors, and millions of others have already had COVID and are actively (or sometimes called naturally) immune. A person who is now immune cannot get or give the disease. The COVID virus is NOT one of those diseases in which an immune person can be a carrier. Therefore we do not need to get vaccinated or wear a mask. Even if I did not previously have had COVID I would still refuse a vaccine for the reasons that follow.

Many people will argue that active or natural immunity is different from vaccinated immunity. Here is what the CDC says; “Active immunity results when exposure to a disease organism triggers the immune system to produce antibodies to that disease. Exposure to the disease organism can occur through infection with the actual disease (resulting in natural immunity), or introduction of a killed or weakened form of the disease organism through vaccination (vaccine-induced immunity). Either way, if an immune person comes into contact with that disease in the future, their immune system will recognize it and immediately produce the antibodies needed to fight it.”

The WHO (World Health Organization) had this to say. “Vaccines train our immune systems to create proteins that fight disease, known as ‘antibodies’, just as would happen when we are exposed to a disease . Even people without symptoms develop an immune response.”

Who else should consider abstaining from the vaccination? “People with underlying health conditions that weaken their immune systems (such as cancer or HIV) or who have severe allergies to some vaccine components may not be able to get vaccinated.” - WHO

“Vaccines can cause anaphylaxis and other dangerous life-threatening side effects.” - NIH (National Institute of Health)

Example: “The United States stopped giving mandatory smallpox vaccinations 30 years ago. Some people die from it; and others have serious reactions, some permanent. Scientists say it's the most dangerous vaccine known to man.” - CBS News, 60 Minutes

These new COVID vaccines containing genetic instructions were rushed into use with extremely short trial periods. According to the IFPMA, the development of novel vaccines is a long endeavor. “It takes usually between 10 to 15 years to develop a novel vaccine, as well as establishing its quality, safety and efficacy.” states the International Federation of Pharmaceutical Manufacturers & Associations.

The NIH, CDC, Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA), and the Department of Defense (DoD) combined to find the vaccine and dubbed the project OWS which stands for “Operation Warp Speed”. - Source/NIH’s National Institute of Infectious Diseases.

So bear in mind when you are being told that this vaccine is safe that this is the same government whose EPA said the air quality at the 9/11 site was safe for the cleanup workers, the DoD who had no qualms conducting LSD experiments on unsuspecting soldiers and said there was no cancer link to Agent Orange, and for-profit drug companies who market drugs in third world countries even though the same drugs have been banned in the U.S. and Europe due to harmful side effects. From 08/30/2017 to 02/03/2021 327 drugs previously approved by the FDA as safe & effective were recalled. This information was obtained from the FDA’s official website.

My final concern is that the COVID vaccines utilize genetic engineering. Messenger RNA vaccines (mRNA) vaccines have strands of genetic material called mRNA - source/CDC

I am NOT an “anti-vaxxer” nor a conspiracy theorist. I have had the DPT, pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine, HBV, and the zoster vaccine. I am susceptible and was routinely exposed to these diseases at my workplace. These vaccines have a proven record and were not rushed into production.

For those who have NOT already had a positive COVID test, I would carefully weigh the pros & cons of a new, relatively untested vaccine developed at “warp speed” (their words not mine) that uses genetic engineering against a virus that is just a nuisance for most people. Before you jump on me for stating it is “just a nuisance for most people” here is another direct quote from the WHO; “Most people infected with the COVID-19 virus will experience mild to moderate respiratory illness and recover without requiring special treatment.” COVID is not on a plane with Ebola, the Plague, Cholera, Malaria, or Yellow Fever. Not even close!

Unfortunately I have found that logical arguments backed by proven science (not “may happen” or “might not be”) fall on deaf ears. It is similar to having an argument over religion. The true believers have blind faith and no person will ever sway their belief no matter how sound the opposing view.

My previously published views on COVID have stirred such animosity that people have gone so far as to wish me “homeless” and that my children “die of cancer”. I have also been called a “quack”, a “know-it-all”, “part of the problem”, a “disgrace”, “brainwashed by Tr_ _p” (of course) and the list goes on and on.

I refuse to be bullied into silence when I see so many people who have been paralyzed with irrational fear and making decisions about their health based on largely one-sided views without fully examining all sides of the issue. Human beings are capable of independent thought and reason. We are not sheep or lemmings.

I am a retired RN, EMT-Paramedic with an ASN degree graduating summa cum laude, a member of 2 national honor societies, with past American Heart Association certifications in Advanced Cardiac Life Support and Pediatric Advanced Life Support. I also am a certified coroner after receiving my training at the Pennsylvania State Police Academy and served as the Chief Deputy Coroner for a county in Pennsylvania. I worked during the onset of AIDS/HIV, H1N1, MRSA & Necrotizing Fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria) and never have I seen such a level of misinformation and a bombardment of articles that focus on rare atypical cases and the hypothetical.

I only include this professional background information to distinguish myself from authors with absolutely no background in healthcare whatsoever and who state unproven theories often with no scientific support. I do not claim to be an expert, just experienced. As the actor Walter Brennan was often quoted from an old television show, The Guns of Will Sonnett; “No brag, just fact".

- David H. Dallas, RN-ASN, EMT-P, retired

Unfortunately, you have made your arguments weaker by not including balanced information.

1) The small pox vaccination was stopped being given because small pox no longer existed anywhere in the world. In fact, the effectiveness of the vaccine eliminated small pox.

2) I went to the FDA website to look at the 327 drug recalls. It was illuminating. The FDA was doing its job in making sure that companies don't include chemicals such as methanol (etc.), particulate matter, undeclared drugs, mislabeling, exceeding daily limits, etc. While I didn't go through the entire list, it looks like the FDA is doing its job in protecting the average citizen from potential danger. here is the link:
Recalls, Market Withdrawals, & Safety Alerts | FDA

3) While it is true that most people will suffer only minor symptoms, there have been several areas where the ICUs were filled to capacity. I do not wish to bet whether there will be an ICU bed available if I need one.

4) Reports are just coming in where people who had only minor symptoms now appear to have longer term damage. Certainly there needs research to verify these reports. Until it can be verified, I am not willing to take the risk.

I am glad that the various government agencies from around the world supported the warp speed development of vaccines. It is true that development of any vaccine or drug takes 10+ years. In this most recent effort, the small group tests run over a few years with complete reviews were skipped. This meant that the individuals in the large group trials were exposed to greater risks. The result was that some vaccines were shown not to be effective (Merck) while others were shown to be effective and were scaled up.

I respect your right to not get vaccinated. However, your presentation of incomplete data may persuade others to follow your decision. Unfortunately, your post contributed to the misinformation that you complained about.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by dtennent

Unfortunately, you have made your arguments weaker by not including balanced information.

1) The small pox vaccination was stopped being given because small pox no longer existed anywhere in the world. In fact, the effectiveness of the vaccine eliminated small pox.

2) I went to the FDA website to look at the 327 drug recalls. It was illuminating. The FDA was doing its job in making sure that companies don't include chemicals such as methanol (etc.), particulate matter, undeclared drugs, mislabeling, exceeding daily limits, etc. While I didn't go through the entire list, it looks like the FDA is doing its job in protecting the average citizen from potential danger. here is the link:
Recalls, Market Withdrawals, & Safety Alerts | FDA

3) While it is true that most people will suffer only minor symptoms, there have been several areas where the ICUs were filled to capacity. I do not wish to bet whether there will be an ICU bed available if I need one.

4) Reports are just coming in where people who had only minor symptoms now appear to have longer term damage. Certainly there needs research to verify these reports. Until it can be verified, I am not willing to take the risk.

I am glad that the various government agencies from around the world supported the warp speed development of vaccines. It is true that development of any vaccine or drug takes 10+ years. In this most recent effort, the small group tests run over a few years with complete reviews were skipped. This meant that the individuals in the large group trials were exposed to greater risks. The result was that some vaccines were shown not to be effective (Merck) while others were shown to be effective and were scaled up.

I respect your right to not get vaccinated. However, your presentation of incomplete data may persuade others to follow your decision. Unfortunately, your post contributed to the misinformation that you complained about.

____________________

"However, your presentation of incomplete data may persuade others to follow your decision. Unfortunately, your post contributed to the misinformation that you complained about."

It appears to me that this is okay with far too many folks anymore.

Forget the facts, make me be right or feel good or strongly support a specific group.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Justus

You might find what you're looking for by researching The Great Barrington Project, performed and published in MA. Also, Dr. Lee Merritt, an eminent physician, is among other physicians who have publicly disagreed. They're out there, but you don't find them in the mainstream media.

Here it is;

Nothing here about not getting vaccine. The Vaccine was not available at this time in October of 2020. This seems to be exactly what has happened. The older are more protected usually at their wise choice and people younger are taking their chances. Not really over the top at all.

File:Great Barrington Declaration.pdf - Wikipedia

[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by Bucco

"The Great Barrington Declaration was sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research, a libertarian think tank with financial ties to the Koch brothers, known for funding organizations associated with climate change denial."

Great Barrington Declaration - Wikipedia

Everything has familiar beginnings, it seems.

Next, someone will start referencing The Onion ...

As a researcher, I tend to look at established and respected groups of people and professionals for opinions.

Even I, as a conservative, don't quote conservative sources just to substantiate my views or opinions. The experts are out there...

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by dhdallas

Myself, my family, my neighbors, and millions of others have already had COVID and are actively (or sometimes called naturally) immune. A person who is now immune cannot get or give the disease. The COVID virus is NOT one of those diseases in which an immune person can be a carrier. Therefore we do not need to get vaccinated or wear a mask. Even if I did not previously have had COVID I would still refuse a vaccine for the reasons that follow.

Many people will argue that active or natural immunity is different from vaccinated immunity. Here is what the CDC says; “Active immunity results when exposure to a disease organism triggers the immune system to produce antibodies to that disease. Exposure to the disease organism can occur through infection with the actual disease (resulting in natural immunity), or introduction of a killed or weakened form of the disease organism through vaccination (vaccine-induced immunity). Either way, if an immune person comes into contact with that disease in the future, their immune system will recognize it and immediately produce the antibodies needed to fight it.”

The WHO (World Health Organization) had this to say. “Vaccines train our immune systems to create proteins that fight disease, known as ‘antibodies’, just as would happen when we are exposed to a disease . Even people without symptoms develop an immune response.”

Who else should consider abstaining from the vaccination? “People with underlying health conditions that weaken their immune systems (such as cancer or HIV) or who have severe allergies to some vaccine components may not be able to get vaccinated.” - WHO

“Vaccines can cause anaphylaxis and other dangerous life-threatening side effects.” - NIH (National Institute of Health)

Example: “The United States stopped giving mandatory smallpox vaccinations 30 years ago. Some people die from it; and others have serious reactions, some permanent. Scientists say it's the most dangerous vaccine known to man.” - CBS News, 60 Minutes

These new COVID vaccines containing genetic instructions were rushed into use with extremely short trial periods. According to the IFPMA, the development of novel vaccines is a long endeavor. “It takes usually between 10 to 15 years to develop a novel vaccine, as well as establishing its quality, safety and efficacy.” states the International Federation of Pharmaceutical Manufacturers & Associations.

The NIH, CDC, Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA), and the Department of Defense (DoD) combined to find the vaccine and dubbed the project OWS which stands for “Operation Warp Speed”. - Source/NIH’s National Institute of Infectious Diseases.

So bear in mind when you are being told that this vaccine is safe that this is the same government whose EPA said the air quality at the 9/11 site was safe for the cleanup workers, the DoD who had no qualms conducting LSD experiments on unsuspecting soldiers and said there was no cancer link to Agent Orange, and for-profit drug companies who market drugs in third world countries even though the same drugs have been banned in the U.S. and Europe due to harmful side effects. From 08/30/2017 to 02/03/2021 327 drugs previously approved by the FDA as safe & effective were recalled. This information was obtained from the FDA’s official website.

My final concern is that the COVID vaccines utilize genetic engineering. Messenger RNA vaccines (mRNA) vaccines have strands of genetic material called mRNA - source/CDC

I am NOT an “anti-vaxxer” nor a conspiracy theorist. I have had the DPT, pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine, HBV, and the zoster vaccine. I am susceptible and was routinely exposed to these diseases at my workplace. These vaccines have a proven record and were not rushed into production.

For those who have NOT already had a positive COVID test, I would carefully weigh the pros & cons of a new, relatively untested vaccine developed at “warp speed” (their words not mine) that uses genetic engineering against a virus that is just a nuisance for most people. Before you jump on me for stating it is “just a nuisance for most people” here is another direct quote from the WHO; “Most people infected with the COVID-19 virus will experience mild to moderate respiratory illness and recover without requiring special treatment.” COVID is not on a plane with Ebola, the Plague, Cholera, Malaria, or Yellow Fever. Not even close!

Unfortunately I have found that logical arguments backed by proven science (not “may happen” or “might not be”) fall on deaf ears. It is similar to having an argument over religion. The true believers have blind faith and no person will ever sway their belief no matter how sound the opposing view.

My previously published views on COVID have stirred such animosity that people have gone so far as to wish me “homeless” and that my children “die of cancer”. I have also been called a “quack”, a “know-it-all”, “part of the problem”, a “disgrace”, “brainwashed by Tr_ _p” (of course) and the list goes on and on.

I refuse to be bullied into silence when I see so many people who have been paralyzed with irrational fear and making decisions about their health based on largely one-sided views without fully examining all sides of the issue. Human beings are capable of independent thought and reason. We are not sheep or lemmings.

I am a retired RN, EMT-Paramedic with an ASN degree graduating summa cum laude, a member of 2 national honor societies, with past American Heart Association certifications in Advanced Cardiac Life Support and Pediatric Advanced Life Support. I also am a certified coroner after receiving my training at the Pennsylvania State Police Academy and served as the Chief Deputy Coroner for a county in Pennsylvania. I worked during the onset of AIDS/HIV, H1N1, MRSA & Necrotizing Fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria) and never have I seen such a level of misinformation and a bombardment of articles that focus on rare atypical cases and the hypothetical.

I only include this professional background information to distinguish myself from authors with absolutely no background in healthcare whatsoever and who state unproven theories often with no scientific support. I do not claim to be an expert, just experienced. As the actor Walter Brennan was often quoted from an old television show, The Guns of Will Sonnett; “No brag, just fact".

- David H. Dallas, RN-ASN, EMT-P, retired

Sooooo, what risky behavior did you partake in for you to have had Covid? I see the people you associate with also partook in risky behavior. Are you proud of that fact? I will not listen to one word you have to say based on your risky behavior. Sorry.

[Velvet]

So, OP, you are saying, or implying that the whole world, every country (even North Korea, the great Covid denier) is so dumb, so stupid that they are locking down their economies and taking great losses and desperately trying to vaccinate their people without good reason. Of the billions of people only YOU know the actual facts and you are warning us. Am I right?

[Two Bills]

Originally Posted by Justus

Spot on! And Thalidamide, a vaccine developed in the early '60's to stop morning sickness, as well, resulted in thousands of babies with tragic results...phocomelia and hemimelia. Also, in 1957, during the Asian Flu pandemic, a vaccine was fast-tracked, just as the Covid vaccine was, that killed and made seriously ill many Americans, one of which was a family member of mine. In the end, we all, thankfully, still have a choice not to be vaccinated. This IS (still) a free country after all!

Just for clarity.
Thalidamide was a drug, not a vaccine.

[davem4616]

great....makes the line shorter for the rest of us

thanks

ps....you might want to keep an extra loaf of bread in the bath room, to kneel on...those tile floors can be rough on the knees if you end up 'bowing down to the porcelain goddess'

[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by pattytracey

I agree don’t trust the vaccine

Another comment with no research. You say you agree?

This doesn't make much sense. Here is the EXACT quote from Barrington:

As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e. the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity.

So, to say I am not getting the vaccine, then quote Barrington, makes no sense....

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Saying people are afraid is not bullying at all. It is identifying an emotion. It is very possible that if we waited long enough for some to be satisfied that there will be no residual effects, no birth defects etc, that this damn virus will continue mutating until just the grass and trees and a few horses and cardinals are left on this planet.

I don't really want control of this person Justus. I want to debate and discuss her views. I am delighted that almost 90% of American's polled intend to be vaccinated against this virus.

The vaccine could start making us drop like flies in a year or two and not doing anything has already made us start dropping like flies.

Really? I have not heard any percentage nearly that high. This is great news if it is true. Which poll did you get this number from?

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by Justus

Spot on! And Thalidamide, a vaccine developed in the early '60's to stop morning sickness, as well, resulted in thousands of babies with tragic results...phocomelia and hemimelia. Also, in 1957, during the Asian Flu pandemic, a vaccine was fast-tracked, just as the Covid vaccine was, that killed and made seriously ill many Americans, one of which was a family member of mine. In the end, we all, thankfully, still have a choice not to be vaccinated. This IS (still) a free country after all!

Yes, there have been very dangerous vaccines and drugs in the past. I'm not a scientist or an expert in any field when it comes to vaccine development. Having said that, I'm coming from the fact that we are now in the 2020s and I truly believe "We've come a long way baby", to quote a very famous ad campaign from years ago. It may be a slogan from years ago but boy does it still ring true today.

Just watching what those scientists and vaccine developers have to work with these days is mind boggling. How many times on TV have we seen their equipment and them at work? We are not talking about vaccine development from 50 years ago. I have hope and faith that these vaccines that have been developed in these modern times are safe for human "consumption".

[Packer Fan]

This is actually an interesting discussion. I think the OP is a little over the top, but I agree with him that if I had already had Covid, I would at least wait until everyone else had a shot for 2 reasons - the first is I have antibodies. The second one is a reason I have NEVER heard anyone mention - IF I HAD IT ONCE AND IT WAS MINOR, WHY WOULD IT NOT BE MINOR IF I GOT IT AGAIN, ESPECIALLY NOW HAVING ANTIBODIES. You see news reports of really old people getting it again, but don't you think if reinfection was a real issue, we would hear about EVERY case of it? Also, if anyone ever had a mild case, then got it again and died, it would be front page news all over the world for a week. So I think if I had it and it was very mild, I would assume logically my body doesn't have an issue with it, so why get vaccinated? However, if I had a rough case, like a few people I know, I probably would get it after everyone else has had a chance.

But I am 57 and I will be getting it. All 3 of the healthcare workers in my family, including my wife, have had both doses of either Moderna or Pfizer vaccines. My RN, BSN wife who has been a nurse for 35 years would agree with me, she has done pediatrics most of her life and seen some consequences of lack of vacinactions in the "anti vaxxer" crowd and they are not pretty. So stay the heck out of my way OP.

A few other things - the person who posted about Smallpox vaccines being stopped because they were too dangerous - I would just like to know if you ever check your facts? Seriously Smallpox was eradicated because it was such a horrible disease everyone got vaccinated and it disappeared.

I had to laugh at Graciegirl implying in one post that this virus that kills about 1/2% of people who get it (this is the number that seems to be correct, my source is the statisticians at JP morgan) is going to eventually mutate and only leave trees and horses on the planet. Wow- a litte over the top.

Thalidamide is a drug, not a vaccine and that was 60 years ago before we had all the rules for testing (and the reason for some of them) we do now. This is why we had to do a 60,000 person trial... seriously people. the whole - "they developed it too fast" argument reminds me of the "villages builds houses to fast" argument. Well, Toyota builds a car in about 4 hours...
These vaccines have had over 50 million people take them. Safety is not an issue.

Lastly, to Coffeebean or whatever your name is - are you seriously BLAMING someone for getting Covid by being Careless? Well, you can cower in your house and never go out, but most of us have lives. The only way to make sure you don't get this is to have NO Contact with anyone. Blaming people for being careless is just stupid.