Interesting point. I hearken back to a different discussion about amenity fee increases. Numbers-wise it seems like a lot but over the past 20 or so years, when inflation is taken into account, the increase was something like $5 per month in real money. Not outlandish by any means.

Everything is going up. Maybe, rather than castigating the powers-that-be in TV for such increases as there have been, maybe we should be thanking them for holding the line on things as well as they have.

Walkers ARE paying their fair share when they pay their Amenities Fees. If you want to pay extra to ride instead of walk, that's up to you. Walker or rider, you are both paying $0 at the course to play golf. You want to ride? Pay the trail fee.

But, but, you haven’t played for awhile……..so how can you comment on conditions?

As the post pointed out (Item #3), carts ARE being observed on the fairways in disregard of the rules.

Result of poll is not surprising.......................I want, but I won't pay.

:1rotfl::1rotfl:

Not quite that simple. But you know that ----- I would hope.

You are forgetting that our golf courses are, when they are properly maintained, beautiful and, even for non-golfers, an inducement to want to live in our lovely community. They are way more than just a place to play "whack-a-ball". They are the major landscaping that provides the beautiful wide open spaces for us all to enjoy. Even if you don't play, they are part of the lifestyle investment we make when we move here.
If your lawn starts going downhill, you will notice it. If your golf course goes downhill, you will notice it. In both cases, your maintenance people should be held accountable and set things right. You don't reward failure or you just buy more failure.
Everyone living in TV has a stake in our courses. Everyone has the right to comment.

The golf courses, even if you never stepped on one, are critical to the water management engineering. - look how most fairways are lower than houses. It keeps insurance losses low.

We don’t golf free there are trail fees each year

:what::what:

Well Buddy I guess you got your answer.

Hopefully NOT

Well, actually…..

About 5% said they would pay a green fee for a great executive golf experience.
Remember, not all executives will have a green’s fee, just 4 or 5 in the entire community.

5% of the population (4,000 people), paying $20 once a week or every other week, is in the 7 figures (another $1,000,000 to $4,000,000)
They’re using that money to maintain 45 holes,
Even at $1,000,000 in extra revenue, you can do a lot with an extra $20,000/hole. At the high end, its an extra $80,000 a hole.

Because people do drive on them and don’t rake the traps, or fill their divots or repair their ball marks.

Ya gotta stop using simple logic here!! Obviously 100% correct. Population goes up (duh, perhaps more golfers?)

Well, actually ....
This poll is obviously skewed since it addresses golfers interests primarily and was likely passed over by many non-golfers. Not "5% of the population", just 5% of those who bothered to take the poll on TOTV.
Ÿout $20 per week is $1080.00 per year for a few courses that will (hopefully) be no better than all the courses should be maintained.
And what about the rest of the courses? Do they get left to die now that there is only 4 or 5 courses that matter? And since only 4 or 5 courses will be worth playing, they will become high demand and eventually more expensive, perhaps evolve into a "members only" club?
Meanwhile, since the rest have been allowed to go to pot, might as well tear them out and fill the area with homes.
I hate to say it, but this whole thing, with "well actually" hints that the decision might have already been made and the "pole" may have merely been a gage of how hard it is going to be to shove it down the throats of the over 95% who said NO.

The Developer puts in the amenities and then eventually sells them to the CDDs. About half of the amenities fee goes to paying off the purchase of the amenities.

Isn’t paying for those amenities bonds a part of our annual non-ad valorem assessment,
not part of monthly fee?

The most dangerous step onto a slippery slope is the first one.

If the powers-that-be can justify green fees for “four or five” executive courses, what is to prevent them from justifying green fees for four or five. MORE executive courses in, say, three years?

Some good ideas, BUT more time between tee times would create LESS tee times. People are already complaining about lack of tee times!

No.

What is the Difference Between Amenity Fees and Maintenance Fees? Amenity Fees are collected with the
monthly utility bills to fund expenses (including operations, maintenance, new recreation facilities and payment of bonds to purchase the recreation facilities) in the Recreation Amenities Division (RAD) Budget (north of CR 466) and the Sumter Landing Amenities Division (SLAD) Budget (south of CR 466.) These budgets are administered by the VCCDD/AAC and SLCDD/ PWAC. Amenity Fees also pay for such amenity services such as Community Watch (patrols,gates, etc.) Postal facilities, Public Safety facilities (fire stations), and Administration (District staff and facilities.)
Non Ad-valorem Maintenance Assessments are paid annually with the property owners’ county property taxes, and are set annually by each Community Development District (CDD) based on budgetary needs. Annual maintenance budgets are established and managed by each CDD to pay for routine maintenance items such as villa roads (all roads in CDD 4), flowers, landscaping, etc.. The annual maintenance fees vary from CDD to CDD. In addition, a percentage of each CDD’s (5-11) are allocated to PWAC for identified shared infrastructure maintenance, such as multi-modal paths. Each CDD 1-4 pays individually for all maintenance expenses.

I really think the developer is “sandbagging” the number of homes and population. I’ve lived here almost 13 years and the number of residents has supposedly gone up only 10,000? Find that hard to believe with all the building south off 466A, 44, into Fruitland Park and now more discussion of increased building in Lake County.

During the last 10 years, the Developer has built approximately 2500 to 4000 new homes each year. The actual number of homes built each year is easily found. If we assume the lower range then we are talking about 50,000 new residents in the last 10 years. Some of those are obviously not full time residents. The Developer has never been shy about touting the fact that The Villages is one of the fastest growing areas of the country. I don't know where you got a figure of 10,000 from.

I agree. And like many others I find that obtaining tee times, especially during high ‘bird season, to be extremely frustrating at times.

But realistically in my opinion the causes of poor executive course conditions, aside from poor maintenance which seems to be a common issue, are heavy traffic, players not following rules regarding course access, and failure to engage in common-sense actions such as filling divots, raking traps and repairing ball marks. The first issue can only be controlled by limiting access, and stretching tee times a bit seems to be a good, rather innocuous way of accomplishing that. The two latter ones of course can be solved by course personnel if they really decide to do it, which to date they seem extremely reluctant to do.

In essence there is no one answer. Even far more rigorous course upkeep would be negated in part by careless and/or destructive players. In any case it is not going to be an overnight fix and it’s a given that some hackles are going to be raised by whatever measures are taken.

Better Management Will Improve Exec Golf Course Conditions
 

The Village's Executive Golf Course management must do a better job of establishing priorities so that their current budget and personnel maintain better conditions. The golfers have identified the things that must be better cared for, so Villages Management knows what to focus on. I've witnessed that the money that they spend renovating golf courses is spent very frivolously. Rather than shutting down a golf course for many months to completely rebuild Tees and Greens, they should close the course for 1 month to renovate the existing course, plus make limited changes that can be completed within that time span at a very limited budget. This is not a budget issue . . . Throwing more money at something doesn't improve it.

See post #7.
Give then a call……let us know their response.

When I reported some really shocking, deliberate, destruction to a green and to a sand trap, and after watching countless times while people ENTERED and EXITED a trap at the highest level (actually the most awkward way it could be done), and watched people DRAG a metal flag pole over the putting surface, and then STEP on the edge of the hole, I decided to VERY politely, calmly, and respectfully report to the golf offices that I have observed "ambassadors" just sit on their carts and watch destruction of the courses and never issue a single word of warning. People who, if they committed the same "offenses" at their home clubs, would receive a stern warning, and ultimately a 30 day suspension of memberships rights even though a paid member, don't even get a verbal warning here (maybe some do but I've been here a long time now and never seen anyone taken to task.. even when parking a cart ON the green !) Here they do NOT appreciate any reporting, even if done in a very respectful way to be helpful. I was told "THAT is exactly why we have "ambassadors" and NOT "marshals", we want our guests to be welcomed, not monitored." Oh, well, okay, NOW I understand, people are paid, I know, not very well paid, but paid, to be pleasant and hand out water, a VERY nice thing, but not to prevent intention destruction and correct clueless golfers ? How hard would it be to explain to a "golfer", a trap is NOT exited by putting a foot on the ledge and bringing the entire thing down, turf and sand ? How hard is it to explain, "PLEASE, when removing a pin, do NOT step on the edge of the cup" ?

Any yet, you will still have to pay your amenities AND have to pay at the "other place" you find, and (probably) even have to rent a cart there (wherever you decide to go ) since it is probably will not allow you to take your own cart... so it's not a "win-win", it's a "lose-lose". But I guess it is possible, there are thousands who live here and have never played a round of golf, so apparently most feel their amenity fees are a value just for the recreation buildings, pools, flower gardens, pickle-ball courts, etc. etc. etc. Still, I don't see an additional charge coming for access to, or upkeep on, the executive length courses ! I HOPE I am right in this "guess" !

Shame on you... you KNOW that is way too logical, and, if I might add, not nearly as PROFITABLE as building more homes and fewer golf courses. Come to think of it, if someone built a small community, and offered a nice community pool for the residents, would the profit plan include building a second pool when the first became constantly crowded as the community gained more and more residents ? A LOT of people move here just "assuming" a LOT of things, I am one of them, but "assumptions" can be dangerously disappointing !

Is one of the thing's you're assuming is that they're not building any more golf courses?

Watch GoldWing Nut's latest video. He shows the development south of 44 just 2 1/2 years ago compared to today. Southern Oaks was barely started. The Pitch & Putt and Putting course were just a pipe dream.

They are currently farther along on the new Executive and Championship courses on the far side of the Southern Oaks bridge, with more being planned...

Not claiming otherwise, but, according to some websites with statistical data on Florida weather, 2010 was the driest ever recorded. Then in 2011, the 80 year record for driest winter season was finally broken, and still stands today. Don't know who is "right", but certainly agree this winter is at least one of the driest this native Floridian can remember ! And 2010 and 2011, being back to back record droughts, was a killer period, that I do remember well !

I was at LSL last week for some band.

I noticed how the event staff are very firm about keeping paths open, moving people in/out of the square. Most of it is for safety, but they enforce the rules.
I wondered why the ambassadors cant enforce the rules on the golf courses?
If I am considering buying a home here, I would appreciate it if the ambassador had pride in the course and corrected something I did.

Wait for the aeration schedules to start up. You’ll again “read” how golfers appreciate (bitch) about this necessary maintenance to try and keep these courses up. I see very few people taking care of our exec courses like they did their home courses. The tee boxes are full of gouges, greens covers in unrepaired ball marks. Fill a divot or two, repair your ball marks. If just 1/2 the people would fix their divot/ball mark plus one more there wouldn’t be any unrepaired left and these courses would stay in much better shape.

Well, it took 4+ pages of comments to finally recognize that golfers are part of the problem: tearing up the tee boxes, driving on the fairways unnecessarily, not repairing ball marks on greens, and not raking the sand traps properly.

The trail fees aren't for walkers. They're for those driving carts. Amenity fees take care of course maintenance.

Discourteous golfers and the drought hurt the course the most, as well as workers not doing their jobs properly.

Assess points to the bad golfers. ������

Absolutely NOT !!!! That’s what’s wrong these days. Everyone seems to believe that throwing more money solves all problems. It will be just like our Federal Tax system that we seem to be paying more and more for sub standard services. The courses that have issues will still have issues and Tee time availability will not get any better. Common sense.

One "ambassador " to reprimand 4, possibly obnoxious and confrontational golfers. Gee, what could possibly go wrong or intimidate the poor ambassador Maybe if they worked in pairs with one driving and the second videoing improper behavior and interactions, with the super on the hot line for immediate back up. Citations handed out to record warnings. Third citation, banned for 1 month from all Villages courses. Fourth citation, banned for 1 year. Fifth citation, take up another game, sell your clubs. You are done golfing in TV.
Dump the title Ambassador in favor of Course Officers, and give them some authority. If the miscreants are aware that they are going to be held accountable, be prepared to back it up and be prepared to make a few examples of a few idiots before you get proper decorum on the course.

I as a owner of a rental would like to see a increase non resident/lifestyle passes Everything else has gone up. I have my tenants pay for this if they want one. After all snowbirds increase the demand on the services in the high season. I rather see this first before any more increases in my amenity fee which is $40 more a month than when I bought the place 6 years ago

You realize you are asking people to give up several of the current courses we all can play (probably the best/favorites) so a select few can create a "private, members only type "Club".
How about, if you want a private club, go build a new one or pony up the bucks for the Championship Clubs instead of trying to steal one of our current selection. If the maintenance people are even capable of making a course "REALLY good", then that is the way all our courses should be now, especially the Champs. This question is a money grab and an effort to disenfrachise (aka; ROB) the majority of Villages home owners for a select few. SHAME!

I completely agree with most everything you mentioned; there is so much more that could be done, even a a drought. But I do believe many, if not most, residents do not understand the entire underlying philosophy of "free" (which we know is not true of course) golf. Those we know on every course we have ever played as "marshals", are not called "marshals" here because they are NOT intended to enforce anything. They are as they tell you, "ambassadors", people don't seem to understand this was a PLANNED, deliberate, decision on the part of the Villages. It is a marketing tool. Everyone knows the thousands who have never played golf, are not even vaguely aware of the long history of etiquette and courtesy associated with the game. Here people REGULARLY step in the path of another's putt, they enter and leave a trap at the HIGHEST, not lowest, point, and do with rakes anything they wish. Admonishing, correcting, or reporting such individuals has never been in the "plan". Yes, it was shocking, really SHOCKING to us in the first couple years, but I don't believe we are exceptional. Just as so many do not realized this is not a private gated community, or that there are very likely to be bright lights and loud music in a number of residential areas (including the high school games and band practice), the same applies to the courses. This is not the "country club" community many envisioned, the one where you get a polite letter that you were observed on ____ date parking a cart in an illegal manner near the apron, or observed dragging a metal flag pole across the green when removing it. You do not get two such letters in one year here and have your golfing privileges removed. Some have said, "no one one cares", that's really not true either. We care, so many who comment on here care, but "caring" only refers to the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY of each of us. Many (of course not all), have no idea, as I mentioned, the etiquette of golf, and I personally think they do not because the have no interest in learning it. They just retire, go buy some clubs, a have fun. Again, NOT all, but I don't think it is likely to change mostly due to the POLICY of the villages that views "free golf" as a publicity campaign that has worked well for it's entire history. People who know nothing about golf are encouraged to "have at it", play, "just have some fun". Our single friend from the North East came to visit. She made arrangements to come back for a "life styles" stay. A city girl through and through, no interest in golf. Her sales rep. showing her around arranged golf times for her, and, personally brought her some clubs at her accommodation during her "lifestyles" tour, and over her protests, told her "just get out there and have fun, you'll have a good time and meet nice people, don't worry about not knowing how to play, you'll catch on, and (he added), it doesn't matter, just have a good time. Of course she told us how she did surprise herself hitting some balls that "actually flew" as she put it, but she also told us about all the holes (as she called them) she made. She had NO IDEA they are called divots, or that you are EXPECTED to repair them with a special mix. How could she know. I relate this just as one personal experience first hand of a good friend, but multiply this by the thousands who visit, vacation, and live here. I also have friends who make it a point to take all their NON golfer visitors play when they are here. I am NOT condemning that, it the right we all have, and many love to take their friends and family to do something they have never tired. I simply make these comments so people better understand why these courses are so poor, it's not all due to poor grounds keepers or even dry conditions, and all the suggestions above WOULD HELP. but until the development's BASIC PHILOSOPHY of using golf a a marketing tool changes, the conditions of the courses probably won't change a great deal. Actually, we could probably save a great deal of money by simply not having "ambassadors" at all ! ? But, with this age population, good to have some one with water, watching for signs of distress or mechanical problems with carts, so..... ! ?

No, would not support it.