[katezbox]

Originally Posted by jhcj91

Coming in on the 6th can you point me out to which courses are looking good before I make tee times. Thanks for the heads up!

Havana, Lopez, Palmer...

[saratogaman]

Cane Garden restaurant is clearly not what it used to be. A new manager took over a couple of months ago and it has been downhill since. A large number of original wait staff is gone and many of the hostesses are downright surly. In mid-afternoon, they remove chairs from many of the tables outside...apparently to discourage golfers from stopping by for a few cold ones if they don't order food. People don't typically order food before five. Don't restaurants make more money on drinks than on food? Much of the business has gone elsewhere.

[schotzyb]

Originally Posted by katezbox

Havana, Lopez, Palmer...

I would add Orange Blossom to that list over Havana. Havana was pretty dry and hard last week when we played it. Not near as bad as Cane Garden or Mallory but still not up to these other three courses conditions.

[Taj44]

jhc91, according to the Daily Sun, Orange Blossom is being aerated May 4, Havana May 17, Palmer May 20. You'll need to take that into consideration in making tee times. The greens generally take 2-3 weeks to heal if I recall.

[schotzyb]

Originally Posted by Taj44

jhc91, according to the Daily Sun, Orange Blossom is being aerated May 4, Havana May 17, Palmer May 20. You'll need to take that into consideration in making tee times. The greens generally take 2-3 weeks to heal if I recall.

Thanks Taj44, I overlooked that OBG was being aerated. Yes, 2 weeks is about right on heal time.

[Bogie Shooter]

From Golfthevillages.com

2011 Greens Aerification Schedule
Championship Courses
Cane Garden May 3 August 2
Orange Blossom Hills May 4 August 3
Glenview Champions May 6 September 1
Havana May 17 August 19
Tierra De Sol May 22 August 17
Palmer Legends May 20 August 16
Lopez Legacy June 1 August 5
Mallory Hill June 2 August 30
Hacienda Hills May 31 August 29
*Subject to Change*

[Mikeod]

After reading all the posts in this thread and the conditions thread, I’d like to inject a dose of reality.

It seems forgotten that we have experienced a “perfect storm” of weather conditions from last summer through late fall/early winter. We had significantly less rainfall than normal last summer and fall which affected the availability of water to maintain the turf. Plans for overseeding had to be altered in light of the minimal available water.

Subsequent to overseeding the courses, we had several weeks of cold weather (10 degrees lower than normal highs and lows, including freezes) that hindered germination and growth of the overseed. This, coupled with the water problem, resulted in sparse growth and hard ground on most courses. Now, we have experienced almost a month of temps higher than normal while precipitation continues to be sparse, if any. But play continues, further degrading turf conditions. All of which means it will take the courses longer to recover this spring.

It is not a coincidence that the courses that have fared better this winter are the older courses. Havana, Cane, and Mallory are the newer courses and have not had the chance for the turf to mature and build a thick base to withstand reduced watering and increased play. Compare the turf base on those courses to Palmer, Glenview, and Lopez. Big difference.

Havana was the last full course to open, spring 2007 I believe, and it was opened earlier than desired because Mallory was damaged by the tornado. (The Jacaranda nine was opened since then, and is significantly younger than Hibiscus and Allamanda.) Since then, how many new residents have moved in and want to play golf? Think that has increased wear and tear on the courses? Where are most of the new residents living? Near Cane and Havana. Think that has an effect on conditions? I see people compare conditions here with other courses outside. First question I have is, how old is that course? Then, is it subject to the same water restrictions that TV has? How much play does it get on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? Probably not a valid comparison.

Last. Tell me what incentive the developer has to voluntarily withhold water and maintenance from these courses, especially in the winter when the population swells with seasonal residents, lifestyle visitors, and renters. Do you think the revenue savings from reducing water and maintenance on the championship courses is significant compared to the revenue from selling homes? The decision was made a few years ago to make the championship courses self-sustaining. If play decreases because the owner chooses to not keep the courses in the best shape possible, revenue goes down and the course is no longer self-sustaining. I know that there was concern among managers about the late play program during the summer having a negative impact on course conditions because of increased wear and tear. Think divots, sand traps, ball marks, etc. Also, play on the course until dark limits how much maintenance can be done after hours. Think watering, raking, etc. But the decision was made to continue the late play program because it was popular with residents, mostly full time residents.

Disclaimer: I do not work for the developer, nor have any connection to the golf administration or maintenance offices or contractors. I have served on greens committees in the past and understand the problems in maintaining turf grass, especially when water use is curtailed. The condition of the courses is not optimum, but there are reasons for it other than apathy on the part of the developer, golf administration, and maintenance contractors.

[schotzyb]

Originally Posted by mikeod

After reading all the posts in this thread and the conditions thread, I’d like to inject a dose of reality.

It seems forgotten that we have experienced a “perfect storm” of weather conditions from last summer through late fall/early winter. We had significantly less rainfall than normal last summer and fall which affected the availability of water to maintain the turf. Plans for overseeding had to be altered in light of the minimal available water.

Subsequent to overseeding the courses, we had several weeks of cold weather (10 degrees lower than normal highs and lows, including freezes) that hindered germination and growth of the overseed. This, coupled with the water problem, resulted in sparse growth and hard ground on most courses. Now, we have experienced almost a month of temps higher than normal while precipitation continues to be sparse, if any. But play continues, further degrading turf conditions. All of which means it will take the courses longer to recover this spring.

It is not a coincidence that the courses that have fared better this winter are the older courses. Havana, Cane, and Mallory are the newer courses and have not had the chance for the turf to mature and build a thick base to withstand reduced watering and increased play. Compare the turf base on those courses to Palmer, Glenview, and Lopez. Big difference.

Havana was the last full course to open, spring 2007 I believe, and it was opened earlier than desired because Mallory was damaged by the tornado. (The Jacaranda nine was opened since then, and is significantly younger than Hibiscus and Allamanda.) Since then, how many new residents have moved in and want to play golf? Think that has increased wear and tear on the courses? Where are most of the new residents living? Near Cane and Havana. Think that has an effect on conditions? I see people compare conditions here with other courses outside. First question I have is, how old is that course? Then, is it subject to the same water restrictions that TV has? How much play does it get on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? Probably not a valid comparison.

Last. Tell me what incentive the developer has to voluntarily withhold water and maintenance from these courses, especially in the winter when the population swells with seasonal residents, lifestyle visitors, and renters. Do you think the revenue savings from reducing water and maintenance on the championship courses is significant compared to the revenue from selling homes? The decision was made a few years ago to make the championship courses self-sustaining. If play decreases because the owner chooses to not keep the courses in the best shape possible, revenue goes down and the course is no longer self-sustaining. I know that there was concern among managers about the late play program during the summer having a negative impact on course conditions because of increased wear and tear. Think divots, sand traps, ball marks, etc. Also, play on the course until dark limits how much maintenance can be done after hours. Think watering, raking, etc. But the decision was made to continue the late play program because it was popular with residents, mostly full time residents.

Disclaimer: I do not work for the developer, nor have any connection to the golf administration or maintenance offices or contractors. I have served on greens committees in the past and understand the problems in maintaining turf grass, especially when water use is curtailed. The condition of the courses is not optimum, but there are reasons for it other than apathy on the part of the developer, golf administration, and maintenance contractors.

Thank you for a well written and thought out post, but even with all the legitimate reasons you have listed for the poor conditions, nothing has been done during the winter months when the green fees were at their highest to try and minimize the PR damage brought on by the poor conditions of the courses. My point is that the high rates were never reduced on Cane Garden during the winter to make it more desirable to play even though the conditions were horrid . Something such as that would have at least showed the concern but no , the rates never changed even though it was called every thing from a "cow pasture" to needing bulldozed.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by mikeod

After reading all the posts in this thread and the conditions thread, I’d like to inject a dose of reality.

It seems forgotten that we have experienced a “perfect storm” of weather conditions from last summer through late fall/early winter. We had significantly less rainfall than normal last summer and fall which affected the availability of water to maintain the turf. Plans for overseeding had to be altered in light of the minimal available water.

Subsequent to overseeding the courses, we had several weeks of cold weather (10 degrees lower than normal highs and lows, including freezes) that hindered germination and growth of the overseed. This, coupled with the water problem, resulted in sparse growth and hard ground on most courses. Now, we have experienced almost a month of temps higher than normal while precipitation continues to be sparse, if any. But play continues, further degrading turf conditions. All of which means it will take the courses longer to recover this spring.

It is not a coincidence that the courses that have fared better this winter are the older courses. Havana, Cane, and Mallory are the newer courses and have not had the chance for the turf to mature and build a thick base to withstand reduced watering and increased play. Compare the turf base on those courses to Palmer, Glenview, and Lopez. Big difference.

Havana was the last full course to open, spring 2007 I believe, and it was opened earlier than desired because Mallory was damaged by the tornado. (The Jacaranda nine was opened since then, and is significantly younger than Hibiscus and Allamanda.) Since then, how many new residents have moved in and want to play golf? Think that has increased wear and tear on the courses? Where are most of the new residents living? Near Cane and Havana. Think that has an effect on conditions? I see people compare conditions here with other courses outside. First question I have is, how old is that course? Then, is it subject to the same water restrictions that TV has? How much play does it get on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? Probably not a valid comparison.

Last. Tell me what incentive the developer has to voluntarily withhold water and maintenance from these courses, especially in the winter when the population swells with seasonal residents, lifestyle visitors, and renters. Do you think the revenue savings from reducing water and maintenance on the championship courses is significant compared to the revenue from selling homes? The decision was made a few years ago to make the championship courses self-sustaining. If play decreases because the owner chooses to not keep the courses in the best shape possible, revenue goes down and the course is no longer self-sustaining. I know that there was concern among managers about the late play program during the summer having a negative impact on course conditions because of increased wear and tear. Think divots, sand traps, ball marks, etc. Also, play on the course until dark limits how much maintenance can be done after hours. Think watering, raking, etc. But the decision was made to continue the late play program because it was popular with residents, mostly full time residents.

Disclaimer: I do not work for the developer, nor have any connection to the golf administration or maintenance offices or contractors. I have served on greens committees in the past and understand the problems in maintaining turf grass, especially when water use is curtailed. The condition of the courses is not optimum, but there are reasons for it other than apathy on the part of the developer, golf administration, and maintenance contractors.

Very intelligent and well presented post. However, even though what you have said is true there will be those that will continue to bxxxh about one thing or another.

[Taj44]

We've been listening to the litany "the courses need to mature" for years now. Guess what, Havana was built after Cane and Mallory and was in better condition than either of those courses all winter long, inspite of the increased play it got over either Cane or Mallory. Why? Because they watered the heck out of it. Every time I've gone by the past month or two, they're plying it with water.. Todd Basso said they had a pump out of order for 2 weeks at Mallory. I mean, don't you think a pump can be replaced a little faster than that? I live near Mallory and have seen virtually no watering for months now. Yet every time I ride by Havana or Palmer they are getting hammered with water. If they know they have a watering problem, why don't they build additional water retention basins? And what about the decision to just not overseed Hacienda at all? Hacienda is one of the nicest layouts around, and they just didn't bother to overseed it. I too have served on greens committees, and understand the basics of turf management, as well as the $$$ considerations that go into golf course maintenance. Todd Basso actually told a friend of mine that Palmer and Cane Garden get the same amount of water. Sorry, but that just doesn't ring true.

[Bogie Shooter]

Did we really go to the moon???

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by Taj44

We've been listening to the litany "the courses need to mature" for years now. Guess what, Havana was built after Cane and Mallory and was in better condition than either of those courses all winter long, inspite of the increased play it got over either Cane or Mallory. Why? Because they watered the heck out of it. Every time I've gone by the past month or two, they're plying it with water.. Todd Basso said they had a pump out of order for 2 weeks at Mallory. I mean, don't you think a pump can be replaced a little faster than that? I live near Mallory and have seen virtually no watering for months now. Yet every time I ride by Havana or Palmer they are getting hammered with water. If they know they have a watering problem, why don't they build additional water retention basins? And what about the decision to just not overseed Hacienda at all? Hacienda is one of the nicest layouts around, and they just didn't bother to overseed it. I too have served on greens committees, and understand the basics of turf management, as well as the $$$ considerations that go into golf course maintenance. Todd Basso actually told a friend of mine that Palmer and Cane Garden get the same amount of water. Sorry, but that just doesn't ring true.

Taj - If you want to think TV is intentionally, through mismanagement or apathy, degrading the course conditions, I'm not going to change your mind, nor will try. But that, to use your term, doesn't ring true, either.

It's a fact that Havana benefited from the timing of its overseed. I think it was seeded just after Palmer and got the little bit of rain that we had in the fall to help germination. Cane did not. Hacienda was not overseeded in the fairways because its water supply is very limited. I think there are only two retention ponds on the entire 27 holes that can be used for golf irrigation. There was not enough water to do the fairways. If they spread seed and didn't water, people would be complaining anyway. They didn't just not "bother" to overseed. They also had planned to overseed the par 4 fairways on the executive courses, but that didn't happen because of water limitations.

Sorry. I don't agree with everything that happens around TV, but I cannot buy a conspiracy against the golfers in this community. It just isn't in the best interests of the developer in trying to sell homes. Think about it. That's the busy season for visits and sales. Do you really think they would be comfortable knowing the courses are in mediocre shape when they could have made them better?

I suggest you go to Golf the Villages and read the article under Turf Talk regarding overseeding. water, and rain run-off. It explains what happened and what we could expect.

[schotzyb]

Originally Posted by mikeod

Taj - If you want to think TV is intentionally, through mismanagement or apathy, degrading the course conditions, I'm not going to change your mind, nor will try. But that, to use your term, doesn't ring true, either.

It's a fact that Havana benefited from the timing of its overseed. I think it was seeded just after Palmer and got the little bit of rain that we had in the fall to help germination. Cane did not. Hacienda was not overseeded in the fairways because its water supply is very limited. I think there are only two retention ponds on the entire 27 holes that can be used for golf irrigation. There was not enough water to do the fairways. If they spread seed and didn't water, people would be complaining anyway. They didn't just not "bother" to overseed. They also had planned to overseed the par 4 fairways on the executive courses, but that didn't happen because of water limitations.

Sorry. I don't agree with everything that happens around TV, but I cannot buy a conspiracy against the golfers in this community. It just isn't in the best interests of the developer in trying to sell homes. Think about it. That's the busy season for visits and sales. Do you really think they would be comfortable knowing the courses are in mediocre shape when they could have made them better?

I suggest you go to Golf the Villages and read the article under Turf Talk regarding overseeding. water, and rain run-off. It explains what happened and what we could expect.

I don't think it is a conspiracy either but somewhere along the line there is some mismanagement to allow things to snowball the way they have that out of all the Championship courses there are only 3 that are worth the price of the green fees.

[bigalibaba]

Originally Posted by mikeod

After reading all the posts in this thread and the conditions thread, I’d like to inject a dose of reality.

It seems forgotten that we have experienced a “perfect storm” of weather conditions from last summer through late fall/early winter. We had significantly less rainfall than normal last summer and fall which affected the availability of water to maintain the turf. Plans for overseeding had to be altered in light of the minimal available water.

Subsequent to overseeding the courses, we had several weeks of cold weather (10 degrees lower than normal highs and lows, including freezes) that hindered germination and growth of the overseed. This, coupled with the water problem, resulted in sparse growth and hard ground on most courses. Now, we have experienced almost a month of temps higher than normal while precipitation continues to be sparse, if any. But play continues, further degrading turf conditions. All of which means it will take the courses longer to recover this spring.

It is not a coincidence that the courses that have fared better this winter are the older courses. Havana, Cane, and Mallory are the newer courses and have not had the chance for the turf to mature and build a thick base to withstand reduced watering and increased play. Compare the turf base on those courses to Palmer, Glenview, and Lopez. Big difference.

Havana was the last full course to open, spring 2007 I believe, and it was opened earlier than desired because Mallory was damaged by the tornado. (The Jacaranda nine was opened since then, and is significantly younger than Hibiscus and Allamanda.) Since then, how many new residents have moved in and want to play golf? Think that has increased wear and tear on the courses? Where are most of the new residents living? Near Cane and Havana. Think that has an effect on conditions? I see people compare conditions here with other courses outside. First question I have is, how old is that course? Then, is it subject to the same water restrictions that TV has? How much play does it get on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? Probably not a valid comparison.

Last. Tell me what incentive the developer has to voluntarily withhold water and maintenance from these courses, especially in the winter when the population swells with seasonal residents, lifestyle visitors, and renters. Do you think the revenue savings from reducing water and maintenance on the championship courses is significant compared to the revenue from selling homes? The decision was made a few years ago to make the championship courses self-sustaining. If play decreases because the owner chooses to not keep the courses in the best shape possible, revenue goes down and the course is no longer self-sustaining. I know that there was concern among managers about the late play program during the summer having a negative impact on course conditions because of increased wear and tear. Think divots, sand traps, ball marks, etc. Also, play on the course until dark limits how much maintenance can be done after hours. Think watering, raking, etc. But the decision was made to continue the late play program because it was popular with residents, mostly full time residents.

Disclaimer: I do not work for the developer, nor have any connection to the golf administration or maintenance offices or contractors. I have served on greens committees in the past and understand the problems in maintaining turf grass, especially when water use is curtailed. The condition of the courses is not optimum, but there are reasons for it other than apathy on the part of the developer, golf administration, and maintenance contractors.

Two points:

1) Why is it that Stonecrest (just across the street) has been in near perfect condition. Are the weather patterns there different than in TV?

2) If not mistaken, the US Open has been played on courses that are 3 years old. According to your theory that tournament would have been played on fairways that have no grass and sickly greens.

TV courses are maintained worse than most Public Courses I have ever
played. Making excuses for substandard maintenance will do nothing to get them improved. What they need is a qualified Greenskeeper, (they have one at Palmer) for all the courses and also need to spend some of their money on stuff other than cutting grass.

[Taj44]

Schotzyb and Bigalibaba,

Thanks for your intelligent comments. No one ever said anything about there being a conspiracy going on. However, my point was, there do seem to be some management problems going on. I have also heard, and not verified, that many of the courses have a connected water system where if one course is short of water they can funnel it to another, yet Cane and Mallory do not have this system. Supposedly the new courses south of 466A will have such a system. If that is the case, it is even more imperative for them to build additional water retention basins for Cane and Mallory. If it is in the best interests of the developer to keep the courses looking good, it shouldn't be a problem spending the money.

The previous winter when it was so cold, we were given the excuse that the cold was the reason the greens and fairways were in such poor shape at Orange Blossom. The golf course conditions at the other courses outside The Villages didn't seem to have that problem. It turned that the overseeding had not been done correctly on OB, hence the poor conditions. Yet every ambassador you talked to said it was a result of the cold weather. Sometimes being a smart consumer means being able to separate fact from fiction.