Originally Posted by onslowe (Post 806081)

A few thoughts come to mind after reading Golfingnut's posts on this thread, and especially the one above.

I cannot strongly enough recommend C.S. Lewis' writings. In particular, and as a former atheist, his enormously readable and clear book "Mere Christianity" would hopefully address your questions. It is not a 'preachy' book. Maybe you, as most of us, have too great expectations of those calling themselves Christians, like me. We are "imperfect but greatly favored" children of God as the Gaithers sing it. We all fall, and we all fail to live up to the ideals of the Holy Scriptures. Many who call themselves Christians are trying, as St Paul instructed, to work out their own salvation, with fear and trembling, but with the knowledge that God is with us, even though we are 'damaged goods.'

CS Lewis addressed one of your questions almost on point if not completely on point. He said Jesus is either what He said He was (is) i.e., the Son of God or He was a raving lunatic. No 'moral' nor intelligent teacher would be sane and declare Himself the Son of God, and would certainly not go around 'forgiving sins' of others unless He had the power to do so, as God, or was a lunatic. There is no real alternative. God or a nut job. Jesus spoke the truth or he was absolutely clinically crazy. I believe Jesus is one of the Three 'Persons' in God.

Lewis' book, and his other spiritual writings, greatly helped and comforted me. He was not a theologian by his own admission, only a layman in the Church of England, but what a force he was. So readable, so persuasive, so humble.

Maybe cut us some slack, even the arrogant ones and the pickers and choosers among us. It's not easy all the time. I feel good after my morning Office prayers, but then the rest of the world wakes up! :)

You are a thinker, GN, and it seems like me and so many of us, you are dealing with a well thought and well considered crisis of faith. I don't know the outcome nor is it my business. But I can and will pray for God's grace for you in your present quest.

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa (Post 805841)

This thread has bounced around so much that I probably shouldn't try to even respond at all, but I'm irrestibly drawn to making a couple of remarks.

1. Jesus was neither a Socialist nor a Communist. Both terms apply to forms of government in which sharing of wealth and labor are coerced by the government. Jesus never suggested coerced sharing.

2. The original post of the thread is incorrect in implying that simply wishing "health and happiness on all regardless of their social status or the amount in their bank account" makes a person a Christian. This is not scriptural. Everyone probably can recite the correct answer, found in John 3:16.

3. Jesus' admonition to give to the poor is an individual mandate, not an instruction on how government is to be run.

4. The "Judge not..." verse in Matthew 7 does not mean you are not to have discernment about whether or not another person's behavior is right or wrong; it means it is not your place to condemn that person. Paul very plainly says you must have discernment about sinful behavior when he instructs us not to associate, or even eat, with a Christian brother who is living in sin. I Cor. 5:11.

5. "God helps those who help themselves. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and... " are secular aphorisms; they are not scriptural.

6. It was Paul, not Jesus, who said that if a man will not work, he is not to eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10.

7. Wearing a cross is no indication of a devotion to Christianity. Decades ago the secular poplulation adopted the cross as simple jewelry, attatching no religious significance to it.

8. The belief that all religious people are going to Heaven is, unfortunately, not scriptural.

9. Religion doesn't start war. Intolerant religious men start wars.

10. "Close your Bible and open your mind" sounds condescending to Christians who look to the Bible for guidance on how to live. I reject the saying.

11. It does not take "time and practice" to become a Christian. It is an instantaneous transformation when one believes.

12. The Bible does not teach that we are all the children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. John 1:12.

Well, if you've stayed with me and read this far, thanks for your time.

Carl

.

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa (Post 805841)

This thread has bounced around so much that I probably shouldn't try to even respond at all, but I'm irrestibly drawn to making a couple of remarks.

1. Jesus was neither a Socialist nor a Communist. Both terms apply to forms of government in which sharing of wealth and labor are coerced by the government. Jesus never suggested coerced sharing.

2. The original post of the thread is incorrect in implying that simply wishing "health and happiness on all regardless of their social status or the amount in their bank account" makes a person a Christian. This is not scriptural. Everyone probably can recite the correct answer, found in John 3:16.

3. Jesus' admonition to give to the poor is an individual mandate, not an instruction on how government is to be run.

4. The "Judge not..." verse in Matthew 7 does not mean you are not to have discernment about whether or not another person's behavior is right or wrong; it means it is not your place to condemn that person. Paul very plainly says you must have discernment about sinful behavior when he instructs us not to associate, or even eat, with a Christian brother who is living in sin. I Cor. 5:11.

5. "God helps those who help themselves. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and... " are secular aphorisms; they are not scriptural.

6. It was Paul, not Jesus, who said that if a man will not work, he is not to eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10.

7. Wearing a cross is no indication of a devotion to Christianity. Decades ago the secular poplulation adopted the cross as simple jewelry, attatching no religious significance to it.

8. The belief that all religious people are going to Heaven is, unfortunately, not scriptural.

9. Religion doesn't start war. Intolerant religious men start wars.

10. "Close your Bible and open your mind" sounds condescending to Christians who look to the Bible for guidance on how to live. I reject the saying.

11. It does not take "time and practice" to become a Christian. It is an instantaneous transformation when one believes.

12. The Bible does not teach that we are all the children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. John 1:12.

Well, if you've stayed with me and read this far, thanks for your time.

Carl

.

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa (Post 805841)

This thread has bounced around so much that I probably shouldn't try to even respond at all, but I'm irrestibly drawn to making a couple of remarks.

1. Jesus was neither a Socialist nor a Communist. Both terms apply to forms of government in which sharing of wealth and labor are coerced by the government. Jesus never suggested coerced sharing.

2. The original post of the thread is incorrect in implying that simply wishing "health and happiness on all regardless of their social status or the amount in their bank account" makes a person a Christian. This is not scriptural. Everyone probably can recite the correct answer, found in John 3:16.

3. Jesus' admonition to give to the poor is an individual mandate, not an instruction on how government is to be run.

4. The "Judge not..." verse in Matthew 7 does not mean you are not to have discernment about whether or not another person's behavior is right or wrong; it means it is not your place to condemn that person. Paul very plainly says you must have discernment about sinful behavior when he instructs us not to associate, or even eat, with a Christian brother who is living in sin. I Cor. 5:11.

5. "God helps those who help themselves. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and... " are secular aphorisms; they are not scriptural.

6. It was Paul, not Jesus, who said that if a man will not work, he is not to eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10.

7. Wearing a cross is no indication of a devotion to Christianity. Decades ago the secular poplulation adopted the cross as simple jewelry, attatching no religious significance to it.

8. The belief that all religious people are going to Heaven is, unfortunately, not scriptural.

9. Religion doesn't start war. Intolerant religious men start wars.

10. "Close your Bible and open your mind" sounds condescending to Christians who look to the Bible for guidance on how to live. I reject the saying.

11. It does not take "time and practice" to become a Christian. It is an instantaneous transformation when one believes.

12. The Bible does not teach that we are all the children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. John 1:12.

Well, if you've stayed with me and read this far, thanks for your time.

Carl

.

Originally Posted by Carl in Tampa (Post 805841)

This thread has bounced around so much that I probably shouldn't try to even respond at all, but I'm irrestibly drawn to making a couple of remarks.

1. Jesus was neither a Socialist nor a Communist. Both terms apply to forms of government in which sharing of wealth and labor are coerced by the government. Jesus never suggested coerced sharing.

2. The original post of the thread is incorrect in implying that simply wishing "health and happiness on all regardless of their social status or the amount in their bank account" makes a person a Christian. This is not scriptural. Everyone probably can recite the correct answer, found in John 3:16.

3. Jesus' admonition to give to the poor is an individual mandate, not an instruction on how government is to be run.

4. The "Judge not..." verse in Matthew 7 does not mean you are not to have discernment about whether or not another person's behavior is right or wrong; it means it is not your place to condemn that person. Paul very plainly says you must have discernment about sinful behavior when he instructs us not to associate, or even eat, with a Christian brother who is living in sin. I Cor. 5:11.

5. "God helps those who help themselves. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and... " are secular aphorisms; they are not scriptural.

6. It was Paul, not Jesus, who said that if a man will not work, he is not to eat.
II Thessalonians 3:10.

7. Wearing a cross is no indication of a devotion to Christianity. Decades ago the secular poplulation adopted the cross as simple jewelry, attatching no religious significance to it.

8. The belief that all religious people are going to Heaven is, unfortunately, not scriptural.

9. Religion doesn't start war. Intolerant religious men start wars.

10. "Close your Bible and open your mind" sounds condescending to Christians who look to the Bible for guidance on how to live. I reject the saying.

11. It does not take "time and practice" to become a Christian. It is an instantaneous transformation when one believes.

12. The Bible does not teach that we are all the children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. John 1:12.

Well, if you've stayed with me and read this far, thanks for your time.

Carl

.