Ask the Native Americans what they though of that "capitalism"...a VERY fair system...isn't it. Best there is! ONLY for those who stack the deck. Ask the Africans what they thought of capitalism too. I bet they'd disagree it's "the best".

You think it was "noble" conquering this continent? It was conquered by greed, people wanting to make a buck, TAKING what they wanted from others who were already here. Have some more koolaid...they've got you hook line and sinker...believing their false "history" of the noble pioneer innocently being harassed by the natives. Farmers and ranchers living side by side in harmony.

There's a lot of ignorance in the world...people don't like having their world view shattered. They start serving the koolaid at an early age. It's hard to resist the indoctrination...the brainwashing. Practically everything we THINK we know...ends up being wrong. "History" as written...is propaganda.

No wonder so many are so screwed up psychologically. We're constantly bombarded with lies. Take religion, they start when we're just babies. Babies, children, when bombarded with "religion", believe it to be true, it's VERY hard to change their views. Be it a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindi, Buddhist, whatever religion, when the brainwashing begins at an early age, it's hard to reverse. Same goes for the twisted "history" we were all taught. The lies start early, and they're believed. throughout life.

Good point there. Religious leaders have capitalism down so well, like big business, they don,t even pay taxes. LOL

Little Truth
 

There is always a little truth in most things. The majority of people first decide what the want to believe and then they go about working to prove what they just decided. A good example is that 90% + follow a certain religion because they were raised that way by their parents. THey then spend the rest of their life proving to themselves they are right in the belief their parent have taught them. Few actually spend a life time trying to determine what they believe is right and then follow that belief even if it is different.. Some become damaged by the belief that was passed to them and they either become non believers or go to other routes.
Some of this "religion" belief can also be translated to beliefs in socialism, democracy, etc.etc. Your parent was a Demoncrat so you are a Democrat and will go to extreme limits to prove why you have the "true answer".
Kind of basic stuff.:shrug:

There is logic in what you've said. But let's not forget the fact that the early colonists and settlers in this nation came looking for land, house and home they could call their own....in a property-owning, free society where they could have the freedom to practice and express their theological and civic views, and have at least a portion of the goods/services they worked like slaves to produce--to have some of the fruits of their labor instead of handing it all over to The State.

The bitterness above is striking and I can't imagine why a person would stay in a regime that commits such horrid socio-economic "oppression and exploitation" of the "victims".

This country has its serious flaws, but everyone has the opportunity to work and seek a better way of producing, for self and for country. Both Presidents Clinton and Obama were fatherless, and Clinton was very poor growing up. But look at what they were able to overcome and achieve, by making the effort over the long haul. Are they "exploiting and stepping on" Native Americans and African Americans, too? I don't think so.

I would like to believe your assertion that everyone has the opertunity to be successful if only they applied themselves. I have been successful because I am smart, hard working, but most of all because I am am a man and white. Sorry, but I recognize the breaks and helping hands I have had over the years because I am a white male.

My father was a white male, too, and we all grew up in dire poverty most people I know can't even imagine. My father quit school to go to work at age 16. My parents worked like animals and have saved and invested so they would never become a "burden" to us (in quotes because we would not see it that way). Today, they have sizeable money in the bank and in stocks, money market funds, etc., live in a newer cash-paid-for home that's similar to villas in TV, and they live on their meager SS income earned in decades of minimum wage jobs. They raised us saying, "If you want something you'll have to go out and get a job and save your money for it first."

They don't resent "the rich white man", because they never got a paycheck nor dividend check from a poor one...of ANY color or background.

I do not believe this dialogue about the advantages or disadvantges of being a white male has everything to do with what plays to one's beliefs.

All I know is I came from the poor side of the tracks....yes a poor white boy.
I was the first ever in our family lineage to go to and graduate college let alone the higher degrees.

I know the long hard hours, and the jobs I worked and where I worked and what I had to do to get o the next level.

Long story short, there wasn't a single :swear: advantage given because I was a white male. Bust my butt working day and night and doing a better job than the next guy.

I don't buy the white guy black guy stories of today. Maybe it assigns what/whose side one is on or the politics but that is about it!.

btk

Is there an answer?
 

Indy---I hear you. I would even go further and say no parenting is at the root of many problems in the country. How is this tied to capitalism?

At the low end of the economic scale the so called "economically disadvantaged"---a growing population. At the high end of the economic scale are the rich and very rich---- a growing population. In the middle are the middle class---a diminishing population. This is the state of the art of Capitalism in U.S. today. Note: All three groups have no parenting or as Indy put it poor parenting.

Bottom line: Capitalism has served us well in the past by expanding the middle class. Not so today and this must be reversed. How? Perhaps a discussion for another thread. A past President might give us a clue to part of the answer.

"Labor is prior to, and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor and could never existed if labor not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves the higher consideration". Abraham Lincoln

This is a thoughtful thread. Thanks are due to the OP.

The linked writer, Paul Farrell, has made a tidy career writing gloom and doom columns about the stock market and the system in general over the years. I read his article and thought it could have been talking about the 1870's or 1890's or the anti-union violence in the 30's (yes, both sides.) Nothing new here.

But, and in strong agreement with Indydealmaker's opinion, this era lacks widespread adherence to moral and family values. In all segments of society, not just capitalism. The television programs today do not feature Cosby families or, and hold your snideness please, Leave it To Beaver type programs with lessons for life. The one-eyed babysitting device kids are plopped down in front of sends some seriously bad images and messages.

The 'system' is made up of individuals, even at the corporate tippy top. A lot of retail execs must have not been instilled with basic cultural morality or have unhappy memories of or at least major disrespect for Thanksgiving. A time for family, for reflection and building of ties and memories. No, this year we've broken through that sentimental garbage and now have sales beginning on Thankgiving evening. That's sick.

I am not a romantic dreamer and sentimentalist when I say that a few people at a time saying "No" to shoddy television and foul business practices can begin change. I refuse to point at one whole class as 'evil' since that let's the rest of us be powerless 'victims.' That's garbage and a cop out. I never bought houses I knew were unaffordable for me. Any business deal that looks too good is not too good. I don't leave the tv on when only rubbish and filth and anti-family material is on.

And I firmly believe there are many many people who do also regardless of CNN or CBS News polls and 'opinions.'

To me, the basis of capitalism is marketplace competition. The deck has long since been stacked against the consumer do to lack of enforcement of anti trust laws in this country. Our government is and has been for a long time sold to the highest bidder. The war on the middle class is real and has been going on for most of my generation and the wealthy just grow and become even more greedy...This is, " One nation under corporation, with liberty and justice ....to those that can afford it"......

is it really just the wealthy that want more and are greedy?

I think not, however for some anyone having more than they have must have something negative associated with them or how they got it and have the nerve to want more.

Hence those with less are completely satisfied and do not want more. Yes I do have two more bridges available in case the one up for sale is not to one's liking!!:duck:

btk

The Farmer
 

I like to use the exampe. Farmer A gets up at 5AM and milks the cows, gathers the eggs, feed the hay to the horses, then plows the fields in the 90 degree temp. and at 6PM he again millks the cows, gets the milk ready for market and then eats dinner and goes to bed at 9PM to get ready for the next day. Farmer B gets up around 9AM, has a slow breakfast, sits on the porch for a few hours and then goes over to Farmer A's property and takes his eggs, his milk and the veg's he's c
collected that day. Of course Farmer A
is angry and goes to the local Governmental offices and complains. He is told that it is OK since Farmer B does not have any food and this will feed him and his family. It is called Socialism which is where the USA is headed.
In the end, Farmer A decides Farmer B has a good system and he [Farmer A] quits working his farm and starts taking what he needs from Farmer C.
A few years later the Country is a 3rd world country as fewer are working and more are taking from the Farmer that works. Does this sound familiar.:a040:

:bigbow::bigbow:

Just read all the posts on this thread and would have to say there are some interesting and even confusing takes to say the least. As with most issues, there are positives and negatives with capitalism, as well as excesses, nuances, successes, failures and on and on. Capitalism has allowed this country to be the strongest, most prosperous, most inventive, and productive country in the world in a relatively short period of time. However, left unchecked, it can produce very bad results, including poor working conditions, pollution, unfair business practices, and more. Teddy Roosevelt realized this over a hundred years ago when he went after the industrial barons and broke up trusts. Unions eventually organized and gained strength, and in some cases, tilted the scales too far in the other direction for a time. Capitalism is the best economic system in the world, but because of greed and human nature, must be monitored and regulated to insure a balance between the interests of the capitalists and the interests of the public as a whole. Those that decry government regulation (which can, of course, go too far), union interests, environmental interests etc. haven't studied the history of capitalism. Long live capitalism - with controls.

It's always been popular to trash the capitalist system even though it's produced more wealth for more people in history. The facts in this regard are unarguable. However, the distribution of the wealth is always the rub. Actually, the American system is an imperfect blend of capitalism and socialism with the trend now being towards the latter. I also think the word "lies' is way over the top.

Regarding excessive ignorance in the world ... that's always been true. The implication however that America is somehow inherently evil because of errors in the past misses the point. Does anyone really think the answer, by contrast and for example, would be to model ourselves after the workers' paradises in Venezuela or Cuba? Not a serious alternative in my view.

Check out the nations' rankings in this Per Capita GDP chart, for Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, China, and others who've crushed capitalism to force statism:

GDP - per capita (PPP) - Country Comparison

"Capitalism is the world's worst economic system, except for all the others that have been tried." Winston Churchill

I have to agree. And the poster that referred to the above as "bitterness" is way off the mark IMHO. Howard Zinn wrote a terrific book which was runner-up for National Book Award, which details some of the genocides Christopher's Columbus' crew perpetuated, the economic background behind the American Revolution, Indian removal, slavery, oppression of women, robber barons, etc. It is not the history we learned in school. The book is called The People's History of the United States. The author said he wants people to understand that ours is a beautiful country, but it has been taken over by men who have no respect for human rights, who are corporate robber barons and war makers whose corruption has infiltrated our government. His point is that we are good people at heart, but our society and values have gotten off track.

Hi Golfingnut : I guess Thomas Sowell, Ben Carson Herman Cain Condi Rice, Colin Powell and thousands upon thousands of other hard working blacks would probably say to you that a person has to create their opportunities.

Indeed there are many kinds of bias including beautiful people whom are envied and punished for it. Civil rights Laws enacted in 1964, etc have more than leveled the playing field.

I guess I'm not sure by what you mean when you say the playing field is leveled. Yes, blacks and women can all go to good universities, sit next to each other on a bus, etc. but looking at the continuing number of discrimination lawsuits that are filed and won by these different minorities, one has to question whether having somewhat equal opportunity is enough. Of course there are many hard working black people and women etc that have gotten ahead, but there are many, many more that are hard working and are unable to rise out of low paying jobs, or they hit the glass ceiling, etc. I do think the discrimination is not so overt as it used to be, but there are discriminatory attitudes that are handed down from generation to generation, and these attitudes influence how one an succeed or not in the workplace. In other words, race-based or gender -based "privilege" is still a factor in hiring, in promotions, in assigning work projects, which of course can be extremely limiting no matter how hard the person works to get ahead.

Rubi, for every minority you named you can name a hundred white males that have had equal or greater successes. The playing field has been tilted from what it was through the sixties but far from level IMHO. Capitalism overwhelmingly favors the powerful and the power still rests largely with the white male in this country.

:bigbow:

Sorry but when I hear a lot of talk about white males etc, I am reminded of Leftie Professors I've known. It gets so tiresome after a while :)

Assuming an approximation of real capitalism with a market economy (vs crony capitalism which is really more of a fascist state), success largely correlates with ability, motivation and hard work.

Does anyone on this board really dispute that?

Ability, motivation, and hard work will get you so far, but opportunity and social position often trump the rest.

Advocating violence and mayhem ... I would say that speaks for itself

Lots of good posts but, unfortunately, I don't have time to read them all. My two cents: Capitalism is not dead, yet. It's just resting and waiting to make a big come-back. Three cheers for Capitalism! Long live Capitalism! :)

Capitalism is active and very much alive
 

Are you kidding. Capitalism is very much alive and active. Take the largest ever retail capitalist----Wal-Mart. Billions of profits year after year but still pays most of its employees minimum wages. This is the very epitome of capitalism.

This Thread is on very thin political ice!