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-   -   How much is your financial advisor costing you? (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/investment-talk-158/how-much-your-financial-advisor-costing-you-359692/)

JRcorvette 07-01-2025 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manaboutown (Post 2442204)
In recent weeks I have been in the process of contacting and interviewing potential financial advisors as I am hoping to reduce the amount of time and energy I use to manage my financial affairs as I continue to age. I also want one on hand to take over if I become incapacitated or when I pass on.

In general most FAs want a fee based on assets under management (AUM). On average it starts at about 1% on the first $1M and steps down to maybe 0.5% over the next several million if one has a larger securities portfolio. Some will agree to bill by the hour or otherwise but their fees are still substantial.

As their fees cannot be expensed and are not in any way tax deductible I started playing around with numbers to see how much I would need to earn to pay for their guidance, i.e., their true cost.

The following formula provides a good approximation.

Gross Income = Net Income / (1 - Marginal Tax Rate).

So I plugged in my personal numbers, a 35% marginal US tax bracket plus NIIT which is 3.8% imposed on top of both income and capital gain taxes. I rounded my top bracket out at 39%.

Using this formula I was astounded as a 1% AUM on $1M would run $10,000 but I would have to earn about $16,400+ to pay it!

Say I gross 5% in interest, ordinary dividends and realized short term capital gains (qualified dividends and long term capital gains enjoy lower tax rates). I need $16,400 of income to pay out of pocket the FA's 1% fee and $19,500 to pay the 39% tax on the $50,000 as it is all in my top bracket, so I am out of pocket $35,900 and get to keep and spend a whopping $14,100. That is a mere 1.4% cash return on my $1M. The FA receives more than I do after costs, almost as much as Uncle Sam!

Of course the portfolio could rise in value, decrease in value and provide little cash income return. In any event I am still out $16,400 which must come out of my other income.

Not considered: long term capital gain and qualified dividend tax rates.

Net Investment Income Tax (NIIT):
The NIIT is an additional 3.8% tax on certain investment income, including long-term capital gains, for individuals, estates, and trusts with modified adjusted gross income (MAGI) exceeding specific thresholds. This tax was enacted as part of the Affordable Care Act to help fund healthcare reforms.

For the 2025 tax year, the standard long-term capital gains tax rates are 0%, 15%, or 20%, depending on your taxable income and filing status.

Qualified Dividends and the NIIT: If your modified adjusted gross income (MAGI) exceeds the applicable NIIT threshold, your qualified dividends will be included in your net investment income for the purpose of calculating this additional tax. The NIIT is in addition to any other income tax already due on the qualified dividends.

"Dividends are taxed differently based on whether they're classified as qualified or ordinary.

Qualified dividends, which come from domestic or qualified foreign corporations and are subject to specific holding-period requirements, are taxed at the lower long-term capital gains rate. This rate is generally more favorable than the ordinary income tax rate and can range from 0% to 20%, depending on your income bracket.

Ordinary dividends are taxed at the higher ordinary income tax rate, which is the same rate applied to your regular salary or wages. This can be significantly higher, especially for those in higher income tax brackets. Understanding these tax implications is crucial for optimizing your investment strategy and minimizing your tax liability."

From: How are dividends taxed? | Vanguard


1/2% no matter how much or how little you invest with Parady~

jedalton 07-01-2025 04:54 PM

just invest in VTI yourself thru Fidelity and forget about it.

Michread 07-01-2025 07:48 PM

I suggest you sign on to bogleheads.org

You will get expert advice on the discussion forum.

kingofbeer 07-02-2025 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1ceasar (Post 2442580)
Another suggestion is to talk to your local bank and see what they suggest as far as managing your assets and your end of life stage. If you don't have children to help out you should definitely contact a few lawyers and see what they would charge you if you get in capacitated

I actually have a relative who is a billionaire and he has a full-time lawyer and at least six people that live with him in his house 24 hours a day
Pretty sure you're not in that range but I think you get the idea that you have to have backup plans now rather than later

Local bank. No way. You need a fiduciary ... a trustee. Lawyer may be good. I have some ultra-wealthy friends who have a wealth manager who pays all of their bills. Country club charges, etc. It must be nice to be that rich.

Chi-Burbs-toTV2026 07-02-2025 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdeikenberry (Post 2442477)
Zero. I use Vanguard and manage my money myself. Financial advisors very rarely have your best known mind long term.

When I retire next year I plan to do the same, keep my 401k investments with Vanguard and manage it myself. Currently a mix of 60% stock / 40% bonds which I will tweak at some point. Going to take 4-5%

M2inOR 07-06-2025 10:26 AM

We have both managed and unmanaged accounts with Fidelity. There are taxable, IRAs, and ROTH accounts under management, as well as 2 IRA accounts that I trade. I've been a trader since 1980, and have learned a lot.

The managed accounts were given a goal of 7-10% return a year, and the management fee is slightly less than 1% per year.

I've been doing my own taxes for 40 years, and have utilized TurboTax and tax publications that help identify deductions I'm able to take.

Managed accounts aren't for everyone.

I survived 3 big declines in the market, the latest being what the pandemic caused. Fortunately recovered easily from each of those declines, as I did not need to sell.

Also, my Fidelity advisor asked me if I knew about ROTH conversions. At the time, I did not. I researched during the pandemic, hired another advisor who specialized in ROTH conversion plans (Craig Wear) who confirmed my cousins with a detailed plan. Very happy with the outcome.

Yes, was hit with IRMAA, but my wife had a medical premium retirement account to pay those very high premiums.

We also deferred our social security benefits until we turned 70, so that our ROTH conversions were in "no income" years and we lived off of savings. Yes, we had high taxes during those conversion years.

We're now early 70s, approaching RMD times, and living off of SS benefits, and income from our investments.

I'm glad we both headed the advice we got in the late '70s, to save as much as we could during our working years, live within our means, and to learn as much as we could about investing in the stock market.

Now we relax, travel, and enjoy our sunset years.

retiredguy123 07-06-2025 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chi-Burbs-toTV2026 (Post 2442760)
When I retire next year I plan to do the same, keep my 401k investments with Vanguard and manage it myself. Currently a mix of 60% stock / 40% bonds which I will tweak at some point. Going to take 4-5%

When you retire, I would suggest that you do a direct transfer from the 401K to a traditional IRA within Vanguard. It will cost you nothing, you will pay no annual fees, and you will have access to a larger variety of investment products.

Caymus 07-06-2025 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2443767)
When you retire, I would suggest that you do a direct transfer from the 401K to a traditional IRA within Vanguard. It will cost you nothing, you will pay no annual fees, and you will have access to a larger variety of investment products.

Just keep in mind that a 401k has more legal protections than an IRA.

OrangeBlossomBaby 07-06-2025 12:38 PM

I don't pay a dime to a financial advisor. Our 401k is modest, we have life insurance policies that have cash value and don't require a fee to cash in if we need it. My stock certificate is also modest, it'll cost me around $100 to sell all my stocks and get maybe around $6000 direct deposited into my savings account.

We don't have much in the way of investments, so we don't need a financial advisor. Life is pretty simple when you're not wealthy.

retiredguy123 07-06-2025 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caymus (Post 2443784)
Just keep in mind that a 401k has more legal protections than an IRA.

That may be true, but it wouldn't stop me from converting. You never know how a prior employer will change the 401K. Also:

"Most tax-deferred accounts such as 401(k) plans, traditional and Roth IRAs, pension plans, and 403(b) accounts are protected from creditors under Florida law."

manaboutown 07-12-2025 01:27 PM

Thursday I had my first scheduled conversation with a potential FA to whom I had sent portfolio statements. Without getting my prior approval he informed me he had another FA on the call. Strike one!

Then he told me he was compensated based on AUM. When I mentioned that, for example, it literally takes no more time or effort to manage a $2(X)M portfolio than a $1(X)M portfolio ( just buy 200 shares of XYZ instead of 100) so why should he get twice as much? He had no good answer. I asked why he could not bill as lawyers do, by the hour. Silence. Strike two.

During the call the other FA three times chimed in I should expect a 5% return. I did not bother to ask if that is 5% before or after their fee. With T-bills returning 4+% (4.99% on the 20 year treasury) with no fee who needs a FA getting 5%? Many good companies and ETFs paying pretty good dividends are out there, too, and qualified dividends are taxed at a relatively low rate. I am not swinging for the seats out in left field, but I do expect to average 7-8% on a conservative portfolio over the next ten years, with both up and down years occurring during that period. Strike three. He is OUT!

This week I have a scheduled conference with another FA. Let's see what he says.

fdpaq0580 07-13-2025 11:30 AM

How much is my financial advisor costing me? Not nearly what he's making for me.
Thanks for asking.

M2inOR 07-13-2025 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580 (Post 2445206)
How much is my financial advisor costing me? Not nearly what he's making for me.
Thanks for asking.

As it should be. I'm very happy with the results from our manager.


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