The proposed changes that you mention are ideas to push out the date when benefits will need to be reduced. Neither party wants to do that but the math is pretty clear.

The statistics are the point , not generated but lifted from the facts a factual response to who pays how much. Spend money on themselves OK , so what , other wise known as spreading the money around .

NO, it's not important or relevant.

20% of $50 million is much more than 20% of $100,000---in fact. 9,980,000 more. As their income goes up, the amount of tax goes up, so the fact that they represent more of the total income is IRRELEVANT. But it's even much more unfair than that---as income goes up, so does the TAX RATE. So, to make the numbers real, 38% of $50 million is $ 19 million, 14% of $100,000 is $14,000.

The problem is that the top 5% could be taxed at 90% and it still wouldn't make any difference in the deficit or debt---but it would bring investment and venture capitalism to a grinding halt. People shouldn't be concerned over what their neighbor pays and pay THEIR FAIR SHARE themselves

My earlier point was that the money wasn’t spent, it was hoarded.

I’m good with who pays how much but if you want that to mean something you also need to tell me how much they made (income, not unrealized gains). If 65% of net income before taxes paid 75% of the taxes then great. If 50% of net income before taxes paid 65% of taxes then I have no complaint at all. But if 95% of net income before taxes paid 65% of taxes then quit the dang whining!

The statistics are based on facts but both the facts and the statistics are incomplete.

Then there are always the “three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.”

The Big Beautiful Pile of Crap bill is just that, a pile of crap. The middle class will be paying thousands more in big beautiful tariffs and getting back a fraction of that from grandiose promises that sounded good at the time but have restrictive conditions that leave you feeling that you have been suckered. Take the no tax on overtime promise. It turns out that a maximum of only $12,500 in overtime will be exempt from tax. I guess that was somehow left out of the promise. I'm sure the billionaire class got most of what they wanted in this bill though.

Unrealized gain is just that , until it is realized it is speculative . not hoarding,
I don't see how "I" am whining ?

And my point is that profit is not "hoarded", it is re-invested in the ways I already posted.

And again, how much income they have is IRRELEVANT. What's relevant is how much does the government TAKE AWAY from what they earned to give away to those who didn't produce.

I can't be any more clear.

"Only" $12,500 in overtime is exempt??? ONLY????? At $20/hr that's 625 hours/yr or 12.5 hours/week given 2 weeks vacation. How much overtime does one think the average worker accumulates? Yes, some will work more, but ON AVERAGE????? And $12,500 exempt is far better than the current ZERO. Amazing how some use trite rhetoric to try to turn a good thing into a bad thing. That's the true pile of crap.

But you don’t know how much the govt. has taken away from what they have earned because you don’t know what they have earned. To you, this is IRRELEVANT while to me it is very RELEVANT. I can’t be any more clear.

Maybe some effort should be made by some to go after those who are sucking the system dry and not producing any effort toward their care and well being. We don't live in a communist society. We have always felt if we really want something, we'd better get to work and figure out how to accomplish that goal and not sit and wait for the government to take care of our needs.

And why does one think that's what's relevant???? I've never asked my neighbors what they earned or how much they have. Why would anyone be so nosy???? Clear????

Unless someone thinks that the top 5% paying 65% of all taxes is somehow unfair to those paying less (or zero), it's none of their business.

“Hoarding” referred to income, not unrealized gains.

At some level unrealized gains are more than speculative, they become leverage, but that is a whole other topic.

So when those top 5% pay their tax representing 65% of all tax, they are "hoarding"? Hard to "hoard" the 35% the government leaves them.

How about the non-earners who are producing nothing, sucking off the system and pay NO taxes? Where is the indignation with that ugly fact?

I can't help but wonder why those hating our system don't seek systems that have the style of financial control they seek. I could help with the packing...

We were doing that. And then, just over a year before spouse was going to retire from a mostly-obsolete skilled labor job he'd been doing for over 40 years, his company shut down the department. He was out of work, with zero income, and not old enough yet for social security. The mortgage company continued needing their payments. We put the house on the market, and it wasn't until a year later that it finally sold.

We had almost nothing left, at that point.

And, 35 years prior, neither of us was earning enough to put away $200/month. People with high-paying jobs are completely oblivious to what people with modest incomes have to go through in life.

To wit: 35 years prior to spouse's forced retirement, we hadn't even met. 35 years to spouse's retirement, it was 1984 and I was still a student in college, working two part-time jobs and busking in the subways of Boston to pay rent while I attended school full time. A year later I was working two other part time jobs, searching for full time work, and started paying back my student loans.

There was ZERO to save during these early years. I swear so many people I meet are just SO out of touch with the reality of working class America it's disheartening.

I DO think the top 5% paying 65% of taxes is unfair IF they receive 90% of the net income.

You never asked your neighbors for that information because you always trusted they were in the same boat that you were (or that you were doing better and didn’t want to bring the issue up). The suspicion is that those in the top 5% are in an entirely different boat than most of the rest of the country.

Prove me wrong. Show me the fact-based statistics on earned income next to the statistics on taxes paid. Show me the statistics on effective tax rate across the board. Explain to me why one is so easy to find but the other is not.

Is anybody concerned about the 500 billion dollar cuts to Medicare that may automatically be coming through the PAYGO Act (sequestration) due to the increase in deficits resulting from this bill?

You seem to be getting confused. As a whole they are paying 65% of all income tax collected. They are NOT paying 65% of their income as tax.

We went through life with modest income and children and no college education, (that may have been our saving grace..).

What they need to teach kids in high school along with the STEM programs, is how to operate a saw, drill, wrecking bar, evaluate homes which may have lead or asbestos isuues, operate and use a tape measure, level, how to use a paint brush, how to tear out a wall and whether that wall is a support wall, how to load a dumpster, shingle, paint.. the list is large. I should add how to operate a sewing machine, mend, hem, gardening, etc.

DUMP the sports programs and get them out of the schools. They should be separate entities and the bill not footed by the public. They are so far out of whack at this point with costs and demands that educations is on standby when it comes to funding.

Colleges are turning out degreed students that can't even manage a budget and no life skills.

Unfortunately some of the decisions you made did not workout

The whole, “if you don’t like it then move” thing is getting really old.

I don’t hate the system, I dislike the part of the system that accepts donations in return for favorable modifications, and I really dislike the corruption.

I suspect that if it was ever attempted it to put names or actual numbers against those claims, it would be very difficult to show a large number of those who are sucking off the system. Are there cheaters and crooks! Of course there are but most likely not in the large numbers that are being implied.

Where did you get the idea that there were non-earners sucking off the system, was it from personal experience or did you hear it from someone who would rather you look at them rather than look at him? “Hey, look over there! Isn’t that terrible? *That* is what needs to be fixed, not this.”

Because it is irrelevant except to satisfy the curiosity of some.

From the TaxPolicyCenter:

"ENFORCEMENT
The PAYGO rule has not been enforced consistently. For example, the 1997 budget act put in place a method, known as the SGR (the sustainable growth rate), for determining Medicare payments to physicians. Application of that formula threatened huge cuts in Medicare physician reimbursements. Congress prevented the payment rates determined by SGR from taking effect, but only for one year at a time. While Congress did pay for these one-year fixes, by limiting the fix to one year it did not need to pay the cost of the fix over the full budget window. When the Medicare Access and CHIP Reauthorization Act of 2015 replaced the SGR formula with a new system in 2015, Congress waived the PAYGO rules, exempting itself from paying for the entire cost of the new legislation. They again waived the PAYGO rules at the end of 2017 so that they did not have to pay for the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017.

It appears that PAYGO can no longer be considered an effective tool for imposing budget discipline."


I'm not losing any sleep.

No kidding, but they are paying millions while others pay nothing.

My 2 suggestions are either

a) flat rate tax so even those with low incomes have some skin in the game, rather than just supporting those that promise the most freebies, or

b) Unless you are a net taxpayer, you forfeit the right to vote.

I actually agree that sports should be optional and not part of any state budget. I ALSO think that there should be no such thing as "professional sports" at all. All these pro football players are recruited from schools. Schools get kickbacks. A school that doesn't produce recruits, doesn't get kickbacks. All that entire system has got to go. Right out the door. No pro sports = no high school recruits needed = no funding needed to support high school sports.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation of this country, and has nothing to do with my post. I didn't play sports in college. I WORKED in college. Two part-time jobs, plus playing music in the subways for tips.

And if you have everyone learning all those things in college, who will be learning how to be doctors, dentists, nurses, and lawyers, scientists, researchers, and teachers? Who will be learning how to make clothing, and decorate homes, and create artwork and poetry? Who will learn the languages necessary to communicate with people in other countries when they go to do business deals on behalf of their corporation?

Do you want everyone to be a worker bee, with no one providing the sciences and "humanities" that make us human, and not just drones?

Here's a thought - stop earning millions every year, and you won't have to pay so much in taxes. You've chosen to be wealthy. Enjoy your wealth.

I pay property tax, sales tax, and yes - I do PAY federal income tax on a few minor investments (I have 20 shares of Intel stock, it's like $1.60/year in income tax on the dividends). But because we earn less than $60k/year household, there's really nothing to tax after our standard deduction.

And therefore I should subsidize SOMEONE ELSE'S "fair share"?????

Beware of the gotchas
 

The $6000 is adjusted downward after $175,000 when filing married jointly. And zeroes out at $250k.

The rich pay 49% of all tax revenue currently...... so what is their 'fair share'.....?

So, in other words, "the rich" are not getting this "tax cut" that the media is blabbing all over the airwaves (as usual).

The US government could/should go back to the tax brackets of 1960, when there was a TRUE middle class. Today there is no middle class and that causes all our individual problems and makes the US weaker.

This SPECIFIC tax cut being discussed in THIS thread, is in regards to a break for seniors 65 or older.

It isn't the only tax cut for the wealthy. It is ONE tax cut for seniors, which may or may not apply to them at all, depending on their income (or lack thereof).

The $6,000 is per taxpayer. A single filer would get it at an AGI of $75,000

One needs to take the blinders off and get into the real world. There are large numbers of people living off the system, work in the ER near or in a large city. Then examine disability claims and follow up on the people "who can't work another day" in their life. Is disability a reality, oh yeah, but not close to the people who are sponging off that system.

For example, we watch constantly on clothing drives, turkey handouts at Thanksgiving, Christmas fundraisers, food banks, school supplies, (all which are important to the community), but the number of people in fine cars, great clothes, beautiful fingernails, tatoos, exceptional hairdos who have learned to suck off the public and spend their money frivolously is ridiculous. Those are just the tip of the iceberg. People don't want to work anymore. Thankfully, we still have a military and tradespeople to prop up our society.

If one doesn't pay taxes, one doesn't need a cut. The tax cut will aid those seniors who are paying their fair share to start with.

Taxing the "rich" more than anyone else is/should be unconstitutional. The country is discriminating against a group of citizens. There are two means of being "FAIR" when it comes to taxation; do away with income tax and charge a federal sales tax, OR charge one equal percentage rate for ALL income earned. Those that pay no taxes receive the most from our government and those that pay the most, receive the least. Sorry, but that is not equal treatment. By the way, with either idea the rich will still pay the most taxes.

Reading comprehension is important, reread my post and you will see I indicated the skillset I mentioned along with STEM should be provided in high school not college and if sports are eliminated, that leaves lots of money and time for the important things. In four years of high school, many of the skills I mentioned can be taught without huge time allowances along with other classes.

I could rephrase my answer as to you want everyone to be educated drones with no life skills for their personal welfare. Heaven forbid anyone should get dirt under their nails..

A fair and equitable government would NEVER stop being responsible for every one living a life to the best of their ability. A government of a Democracy should be willing to care for "the least among us". The idea is to tax the successful in order to provide minimal housing and food for the unsuccessful. Some people are born with birth defects and low intellect. That is no fault of their own. Being rich or even above average is a combination of LUCK and hard work.

Just how are the "hoarding" their income ? at the point that the gains are not just speculative they become factual, demonstrated and are taxed as such , how do you tax an unknown?

That's true, but medical bills and other unforeseeable events can ruin any savings plan. Here AGAIN the factor of LUCK comes into play.