[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

That site, ChooseMyPlate.gov, was put up by the U.S.D.A. and of course they are going to justify including "dairy" as a separate group. The way groups are set up is usually based on lobbying, just like the old food pyramids were based on lobbying efforts. That's why there have been changes from time to time. If the dairy industy has a powerful lobby they can muscle their way in as a food group. And I think that's what has happened.

That is an interesting theory.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

That site, ChooseMyPlate.gov, was put up by the U.S.D.A. and of course they are going to justify including "dairy" as a separate group. The way groups are set up is usually based on lobbying, just like the old food pyramids were based on lobbying efforts. That's why there have been changes from time to time. If the dairy industy has a powerful lobby they can muscle their way in as a food group. And I think that's what has happened.

Well then, I pretty much think you have answered your original question, VPL. And I agree with you about it being political to some extent. I have read that before.

[ConeyIsBabe]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

That site, ChooseMyPlate.gov, was put up by the U.S.D.A. and of course they are going to justify including "dairy" as a separate group. The way groups are set up is usually based on lobbying, just like the old food pyramids were based on lobbying efforts. That's why there have been changes from time to time. If the dairy industy has a powerful lobby they can muscle their way in as a food group. And I think that's what has happened.

I've read this from other credible sources and ~~

[senior citizen]

Strong bones and healthy teeth need calcium..........and phosporous....etc.
Dairy is a rich source of calcium but so is plant food..........

What Type Of Vitamin Is Needed With Calcium To Promote Strong Bones & Teeth? | LIVESTRONG.COM

How To Regulate Calcium And Phosphorus Ratio | LIVESTRONG.COM

Calcium in diet: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Dairy contains calcium but it has not been proven to stregnthen bones or even maintain bones. And it certainly hasn't been proven to prevent osteoporosis.

If it could be proved to be good for bones, the dairy industry would make this claim on every dairy product in the supermarket. I suggest that you go to the suppermarket and see for yourself. If you can find any dairy product that says, "helps build (or maintain) strong bones", let me know.

My mom passed at age 91; she walked with the speed of a teenager as many of her peers noted........up to close to the "end".....which was end stage Alzheimers.

Her entire life, she practically lived on YOGHURT and MILK.......was always thin and petite.

Her doctor, a neighbor of ours, who had administered a full physical at about age 89 (at the hospital after she had been put on *Aricept for her Alzheimers, which is another story, having nothing to do with strong bones).......

*One of the side effects of Aricept is dizziness when standing up, loss of appetite, etc........that's what she was being tested for.....(the dizziness upon standing)....with various hospital tests.......

Her doctor said that for her age, she had excellent LUNGS, BONES, HEART, and general overall good health.......he was an internist and a neighbor of ours.....so he called me after the battery of tests was completed. I knew her bones were strong.

Her geriatric doctor echoed the same thing. Just her short term memory was failing........as we all knew.

Also, throughout her life, well into her late 80's.....she walked all over without a cane, walking device or anything..........and often mentioned she had fallen on the ice or snow.

Never broke a single bone in her life.
Never had a hip replacement or knee replacement.

Again, she lived on YOGHURT and milk from childhood and all through her adult life............ate a lot of dairy on a daily basis.

I've read of Russians, Georgians, etc. and other such ethnic groups who also lived long lives eating dairy products............milk and yoghurt, cheeses, etc.

My Italian grandmother also lived to 95 and ate cheeses her entire life; was able to walk up and down five flights of steps in her apartment building until age 90......and walked down the street to attend daily morning mass, again up to age 90....with no cane or walker.

After that, the priest came to her and she died at 95 with all her "marbles". She never got Alzheimers........Italians sure eat their share of ricotta cheese and mozarella..........dairy.

I know you consider these "anecdotes" but they are TRUE FACTS.

I think each person should be looked at individually; also look back at their family history..........as far as whether dairy is good or not.

I wouldn't put so much stock in the dairy "industry" as far as their marketing and advertising. Do your own personal survey on how many people eat dairy and how many have strong bones well into their elder years.

[graciegirl]

I heard from a very unreliable source that the tooth fairy is laying for ya, VillagesPl, trying to discourage people from drinking milk at all....

The American Dental Association seems to think milk and cheese build nice jaw bones.
http://freshbaby.com/healthy_eating/...hFairyTips.pdf

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

That is an interesting theory.

No, it's not a theory, it's the way it works. I read about it in the newspaper several years ago. And, by the way, the U.S.D.A is basically set up to promote U.S. agricultural products. That's it's main purpose and our health is secondary.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by senior citizen

My mom passed at age 91; she walked with the speed of a teenager as many of her peers noted........up to close to the "end".....which was end stage Alzheimers.

Her entire life, she practically lived on YOGHURT and MILK.......was always thin and petite.

Her doctor, a neighbor of ours, who had administered a full physical at about age 89 (at the hospital after she had been put on *Aricept for her Alzheimers, which is another story, having nothing to do with strong bones).......

*One of the side effects of Aricept is dizziness when standing up, loss of appetite, etc........that's what she was being tested for.....(the dizziness upon standing)....with various hospital tests.......

Her doctor said that for her age, she had excellent LUNGS, BONES, HEART, and general overall good health.......he was an internist and a neighbor of ours.....so he called me after the battery of tests was completed. I knew her bones were strong.

Her geriatric doctor echoed the same thing. Just her short term memory was failing........as we all knew.

Also, throughout her life, well into her late 80's.....she walked all over without a cane, walking device or anything..........and often mentioned she had fallen on the ice or snow.

Never broke a single bone in her life.
Never had a hip replacement or knee replacement.

Again, she lived on YOGHURT and milk from childhood and all through her adult life............ate a lot of dairy on a daily basis.

I've read of Russians, Georgians, etc. and other such ethnic groups who also lived long lives eating dairy products............milk and yoghurt, cheeses, etc.

My Italian grandmother also lived to 95 and ate cheeses her entire life; was able to walk up and down five flights of steps in her apartment building until age 90......and walked down the street to attend daily morning mass, again up to age 90....with no cane or walker.

After that, the priest came to her and she died at 95 with all her "marbles". She never got Alzheimers........Italians sure eat their share of ricotta cheese and mozarella..........dairy.

I know you consider these "anecdotes" but they are TRUE FACTS.

I think each person should be looked at individually; also look back at their family history..........as far as whether dairy is good or not.

I wouldn't put so much stock in the dairy "industry" as far as their marketing and advertising. Do your own personal survey on how many people eat dairy and how many have strong bones well into their elder years.

I don't doubt that you are telling me "true facts" but that doesn't constitute conclusive proof that dairy is good for bones. If it was that easy to prove, the dairy industry would have proved it to the FDA a long time ago. And if they could prove it, they would be allowed to make that claim for bone health on all dairy products.

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

I don't doubt that you are telling me "true facts" but that doesn't constitute conclusive proof that dairy is good for bones. If it was that easy to prove, the dairy industry would have proved it to the FDA a long time ago. And if they could prove it, they would be allowed to make that claim for bone health on all dairy products.

Listen....a petite frail old lady falls frequently on ice and snow in a northern climate because she's walking fairly briskly along at her advanced age. She would just laugh and pick herself up. Our sidewalks can get pretty darn icy up here.

Never did she break a wrist, an arm, a leg, a hip......nor have hip replacement nor knee replacement surgeries.

She didn't need a cane, a walker, etc..........or a scooter.

She always had good bone health which was confirmed by her two doctors; one was in awe of her (he being the geriatric specialist) as was the other being the internist.

I could chalk it up to good genetics but I do truly believe it was all that yoghurt she consumed daily. Read up on the Georgians and Russians who ate a lot of yoghurt, milk, cheese, etc.

She never ate sweets nor desserts..........was raised on lots of vegetables and very little meat.

I know women younger than myself who all have been diagnosed with osteopenia and osteoporosis...........but according to my mom's tests at age 89, she had no signs of either..........I still think it was the calcium.
I know what she ate.

However, since we all have to go from something...........she passed at 91 from end stage Alzheimers.........but her body was GREAT. She had lost her sense of smell quite a few years prior (and now it is considered one of the early symptoms).........she began forgetting appointments, etc., dates, etc...little things..........it lasted about a decade........while her physical health remained intact. It certainly is "The Long Goodbye".........but again, we all have to go from something........the first and second stage are not that bad.........but the end stage is not a pretty sight to behold.

It really doesn't pay to dwell entirely on our health without enjoying each day we have to the fullest............as again, we could have wonderful physical health and yet get hit by a truck crossing the street.....or die from end stage Alzheimers.....which spares no intellect or gender.

[Villages PL]

Senior,

How would you explain the strong bones anthropologists find that date back to the paleolithic age. How did they develop strong bones without dairy?

[ConeyIsBabe]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Senior,

How would you explain the strong bones anthropologists find that date back to the paleolithic age. How did they develop strong bones without dairy?

This is just a wild guess.... perhaps strong bones in old age result from a life of activity and stressing the bones to remain strong ? (of course, along with a healthy lifestyle and diet).

[senior citizen]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

Senior,

How would you explain the strong bones anthropologists find that date back to the paleolithic age. How did they develop strong bones without dairy?

Firstly, I would think they did NOT live to age 91 or even close.

I can't explain what you are referring to; I'm not an anthropologist, however, my daughter and her husband were anthropology /education majors in college......I'll check with them when I see them.

Here is what I just found.......for now:

Various ages of life expectancy throughout the times..........see below...

The median life expectancy has been estimated at ~35 years of age. This is about the life expectancy of the African Bushmen (Sans) of today. Due to their active lifestyle they suffered far more injuries that today's humans & wound infections would have killed many of them. Early mortality rates are also high among hunter gatherers as any genetic disease like diabetes was untreatable & fatal.

We don't know that there isn't a causal relationship between the gradually lengthening human lifespans since the dawn of agriculture and a grains-based diet, but we do know that all but tropical humans were forced to eat a high fat & high meat diet during winter months.

The Sans have had limited contact with the outside World & until very recently they lived as humans had in paleolithic times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expect…
Humans by Era Average Lifespan at Birth
(years) Comment
Upper Paleolithic 33 At age 15: 39 (to age 54)
Neolithic 20
Bronze Age and Iron Age 35+
Classical Greece 28
Classical Rome 28
Pre-Columbian North America 25-30
Medieval Islamic Caliphate 35+
Medieval Britain 30
Early Modern Britain 40+
Early 20th Century 30-45
Current world average 67.2 2010 est

[Villages PL]

Senior,

Life expectancy is a separate issue because bones generally reach their peak of development somewhere around 19, or 20 years of age.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by ConeyIsBabe

This is just a wild guess.... perhaps strong bones in old age result from a life of activity and stressing the bones to remain strong ? (of course, along with a healthy lifestyle and diet).

Yes, I think you're right. Their lifestyle, before the age of agriculture, consisted of natural whole foods and lots of exercise. They were hunters and gatherers and were constantly on the move.
They didn't consume any processed foods, like soda, that would leach calcium from their bones.

Today, as you said, strong bones can be maintained by being physically active and eating a good diet with lots of vegetables etc..
I would just add this: If strong bones are maintained with dairy included in the diet, I don't think it's because of dairy, I think it's inspite of dairy.

[senior citizen]

WHFoods: Milk, goat
Did they have goats and goat milk? Or camels perhaps????? Interesting hyperlink above........

History

Goats have played a role in food culture since time immemorial with ancient cave paintings showing the hunting of goats. They are also one of the oldest domesticated animals since the herding of goats is thought to have evolved about 10,000 years ago in the mountains of Iran.

Goat milk and the cheese made from it were revered in ancient Egypt with some pharaohs supposedly having these foods placed among the other treasures in their burial chambers. Goat milk was also widely consumed by the ancient Greeks and Romans. Goat milk has remained popular throughout history and still is consumed on a more extensive basis worldwide than cow's milk.

Horn cores from the Neolithic village of Atlit Yam


Goats are among the earliest animals domesticated by humans.[5] The most recent genetic analysis[6] confirms the archaeological evidence that the wild bezoar of the AnatolianZagros are the likely origin of almost all domestic goats today.[5]
Neolithic farmers began to herd wild goats for easy access to milk and meat, primarily, as well as for their dung, which was used as fuel, and their bones, hair, and sinew for clothing, building, and tools.[1] The earliest remnants of domesticated goats dating 10,000 years before present are found in Ganj Dareh in Iran. Goat remains have been found at archaeological sites in Jericho, Choga Mami[7]Djeitun and Cayonu, dating the domestication of goats in western Asia at between 8,000 and 9,000 years ago.[5]
Studies of DNA evidence suggests 10,000 years BP as the domestication date. [6]
Historically, goat hide has been used for water and wine bottles in both traveling and transporting wine for sale. It has also been used to produce parchment