[jimbo2012]

Originally Posted by Arctic Fox

If people cannot eat meat for medical reasons then I have sympathy for them, but if they CHOOSE not to eat meat then they really should be happy to live with their decision.

It just seems rather perverse to choose a lifestyle and then moan just because not everyone decides to go the same way?

Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

Many if not most don't eat meat due to the rampant abuse of animals and environmental devastation.
The animals slaughtered for food are extremely intelligent and sensitive creatures, and the way in which we treat them, regardless of whether the meat is factory farmed, free range or organic, is abhorrently cruel, those actions cause animals immense emotional pain and suffering.

Wonder how many would continue eating animals if they saw the slaughter houses first hand, it isn't pretty or appetizing.

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

And I'd be fine with "live and let live" as a result, not trying to force my views on others.

Village PL & myself are not forcing our views on anyone, nor are we forcing anyone to read this info.

Tied of hearing it as a defense by some readers, if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits, Google it.

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[TheVillageChicken]

Originally Posted by jimbo2012

Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

Many if not most don't eat meat due to the rampant abuse of animals and environmental devastation.
The animals slaughtered for food are extremely intelligent and sensitive creatures, and the way in which we treat them, regardless of whether the meat is factory farmed, free range or organic, is abhorrently cruel, those actions cause animals immense emotional pain and suffering.

Wonder how many would continue eating animals if they saw the slaughter houses first hand, it isn't pretty or appetizing.



Village PL & myself are not forcing our views on anyone, nor are we forcing anyone to read this info.

Tied of hearing it as a defense by some readers, if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits, Google it.

.

So does this mean you own no leather products?

[dbussone]

Originally Posted by jimbo2012

Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

Many if not most don't eat meat due to the rampant abuse of animals and environmental devastation.
The animals slaughtered for food are extremely intelligent and sensitive creatures, and the way in which we treat them, regardless of whether the meat is factory farmed, free range or organic, is abhorrently cruel, those actions cause animals immense emotional pain and suffering.

Wonder how many would continue eating animals if they saw the slaughter houses first hand, it isn't pretty or appetizing.



Village PL & myself are not forcing our views on anyone, nor are we forcing anyone to read this info.

Tied of hearing it as a defense by some readers, if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits, Google it.

.

Sorry. But Google does not qualify as an acceptable medical source. Please provide (as VPL would say) the links. And by the way, cattle are hardly "intelligent" animals. I don't know where you get your information. I know, you think lobsters scream when they are put in boiling water. So I say Baloney to you.

[shcisamax]

Hmmmn. I have to jump in here for a moment. If you can open your mind and not simply judge superiority by human IQ tests, different species are superior in different ways. However, all mammals are sentient creatures. If you think they don't feel fear or feel pain or feel loss, well, you need to do some research. As far as taking responsibility for your decisions, I knew a man who decided if he was going to eat meat, he needed to know he he could deal with the actual killing of the animal. He went out and shot a deer. He cried. Then he did eat the meat. Not long after, though, he became a full time vegetarian. It would be interesting to see how people would react if they went to a slaughter house and watched or needed to actually kill the animal they were going to eat. We all do what we feel we are morally justified to do. It is just sometimes, our own "appetites" get in the way of honest decision making.

[Cisco Kid]

Originally Posted by dbussone

Sorry. But Google does not qualify as an acceptable medical source. Please provide (as VPL would say) the links. And by the way, cattle are hardly "intelligent" animals. I don't know where you get your information. I know, you think lobsters scream when they are put in boiling water. So I say Baloney to you.

Fried Baloney with Velveeta cheese on toast.
This tread has made me hungry.
I know what I am having for supper.

[shcisamax]

Velveeta...there is a whole other thread !

[dbussone]

Originally Posted by shcisamax

Hmmmn. I have to jump in here for a moment. If you can open your mind and not simply judge superiority by human IQ tests, different species are superior in different ways. However, all mammals are sentient creatures. If you think they don't feel fear or feel pain or feel loss, well, you need to do some research. As far as taking responsibility for your decisions, I knew a man who decided if he was going to eat meat, he needed to know he he could deal with the actual killing of the animal. He went out and shot a deer. He cried. Then he did eat the meat. Not long after, though, he became a full time vegetarian. It would be interesting to see how people would react if they went to a slaughter house and watched or needed to actually kill the animal they were going to eat. We all do what we feel we are morally justified to do. It is just sometimes, our own "appetites" get in the way of honest decision making.

If you were directing the above post to me, I understand. I was addressing the intelligence of a cow. Not the ability of the animal to feel or sense - these are distinct physiological responses. The animals and fish whose flesh I eat are of low intelligence - not like primates, or whales. My undergrad degrees were in physiology and zoology so I have a well developed sense of what I am doing where my food sources are involved.

[jimbo2012]

Originally Posted by shcisamax

Hmmmn. I have to jump in here for a moment. If you can open your mind and not simply judge superiority by human IQ tests, different species are superior in different ways. However, all mammals are sentient creatures.
If you think they don't feel fear or feel pain or feel loss, well, you need to do some research. As far as taking responsibility for your decisions, I knew a man who decided if he was going to eat meat, he needed to know he he could deal with the actual killing of the animal. He went out and shot a deer. He cried. Then he did eat the meat. Not long after, though, he became a full time vegetarian. It would be interesting to see how people would react if they went to a slaughter house and watched or needed to actually kill the animal they were going to eat. We all do what we feel we are morally justified to do. It is just sometimes, our own "appetites" get in the way of honest decision making.

Nicely said

[shcisamax]

Originally Posted by dbussone

Not the ability of the animal to feel or sense - these are distinct physiological responses. The animals and fish whose flesh I eat are of low intelligence - not like primates, or whales. My undergrad degrees were in physiology and zoology so I have a well developed sense of what I am doing where my food sources are involved.

I am not sold that low intelligence necessarily is the qualifier for whether it gives you permission to eat another species. It doesn't make them lesser beings. It makes them different. I consider that humans are just one of many species on the earth - superior in many ways like IQ- not so in others. And, interestingly, we are very flawed considering our superior "intelligence".

With your extensive education, I assume you recognize that mammals e.g. dogs, cats, horses, pigs, etc. feel not only physical pain but experience emotion, stress, fear, etc.

BTW: I don't begrudge anyone their choices.

[Arctic Fox]

Originally Posted by jimbo2012

Baloney, do you think 16 million vegetarian/vegans choose the diet lifestyle for only health reasons?

if you want to get off many meds like BP, cholesterol eliminate type 2 diabetes etc (and leave the side effects behind) loose weight have more energy you may want to look at the benefits.

You claim you want to save billions of animals, Jimbo, but you keep coming back to the health benefits?

[graciegirl]

///.

[dbussone]

Originally Posted by shcisamax

I am not sold that low intelligence necessarily is the qualifier for whether it gives you permission to eat another species. It doesn't make them lesser beings. It makes them different. I consider that humans are just one of many species on the earth - superior in many ways like IQ- not so in others. And, interestingly, we are very flawed considering our superior "intelligence".

With your extensive education, I assume you recognize that mammals e.g. dogs, cats, horses, pigs, etc. feel not only physical pain but experience emotion, stress, fear, etc.

BTW: I don't begrudge anyone their choices.

And I certainly don't begrudge you your choices either. As humans I relish our ability to converse and discuss our differences.

[mtdjed]

Now 7001 animals and counting.

[shcisamax]

Originally Posted by dbussone

And I certainly don't begrudge you your choices either. As humans I relish our ability to converse and discuss our differences.

Where's the thumbs up button?

Thank you dbussone. This was a very pleasant exchange of ideas. See everyone? It can be done without slapping anyone around.

[B767drvr]

For what it's worth, and I'm sure not very much, I wholeheartedly agree with Jimbo, VPL, and shcisamax.

From my personal experience watching my parents slowly decline down a painful simultaneous path toward death (retired physician, nurse) I began to wonder if this was my inevitable future? I did a voluminous amount of reading searching for salvation or at least a course correction, and finally decided that the weight of SCIENTIFIC evidence was simply overwhelming in favor of a plant-based diet if I wanted to alter my destiny. If you're curious, my top three reading picks are:

The China Study by T. Colin Campbell (in GREAT scientific detail lays out the studies that show what the healthiest populations eat and what the unhealthiest populations eat, why the standard american diet "promotes" many types of cancer and how many diseases previously thought due to genetics are due to nutritional choices)

Whole by Campbell (also) (explains WHY you don't know what you don't know! Will definitely make you reconsider vitamin supplements!)

Super Immunity by Joel Fuhrman (mostly interesting, IMO, for the importance of intestinal health/bacteria to your overall health)


Previously, I'd consider myself very "mainstream" educated on nutrition and fairly strictly following the US FDA guidelines of limited red meat consumption, organic or free-range chicken and turkey, some wild salmon, and limited eggs and saturated fat. In short, I THOUGHT I ate pretty healthfully.

Boy was I wrong! When you had a question in life and your parents lacked the answer, someone (usually a wise uncle) chimed in with the adage, "Follow the money!" Wow was that ever great advice in the search for nutritional truth. There is a ton of money spreading an incredulous amount of bad information to keep the American consumer purchasing a lot of profitable, but unhealthy "food".

I learned I was NOT eating very optimally at all. I enjoy food, but I would not say I was previously a "foodie" like my wife who writes a food blog and is a paid reviewer, is a food photographer, and derives a GREAT amount of enjoyment from life via food. (Caveat, she's 5'4, 125 lbs) I mention these personal things only so the reader understands that food is enjoyed, a passion, but is not out of balance in our lives. It is still sustenance and that is important to keep in mind.

There is so much money intentionally being spent to obfuscate the health value or detriment of everything you consume that your mind would literally spin. Unfortunately, we all rely on the government appointed body (the FDA) tasked with ensuring and regulating our food supply for optimal nutrition and health to keep us healthy and safe and that trust is ABSOLUTELY MISPLACED!

At this point, I'm sure I have a dozen or more detractors ready to attack me as they have the previous posters, but I'm going to say that I will post my thoughts, but I'm exhausted attempting to convince the non-believers. Heart disease is the #1 KILLER in the United States, but is VIRTUALLY UNHEARD OF in 75% OF THE PLANET! You heard me, 75% of the human race suffers essentially NO heart disease! How can that possibly be? If you wish to learn, begin to become nutritionally literate and start with the books above. You'll find many more, but realize there are $BILLIONS at stake to convince you to continue consuming the standard american diet.

Finally, I'm at peace with the fact that many are "set in their ways", are healthy, or "healthy-enough", and don't wish to change their diet. I get it. My father is dying from a multitude of infirmities and I simply don't want to follow his path to his eventual grave. If I can alter my path and maintain a healthier life longer than my dad did, then I'm ahead of all the naysayers that say it's all pre-ordained.

Oh, and my foodie wife is now also vegan as well as my daughter. Our son is much healthier in his diet, but still only about half-way there. We're all individuals and we all thankfully have free choice, especially including our food choices! On this positive note, I think we can all agree.

Bon Appetit!