There will always be people who promote vegan or raw food or plant based diets. And who are deservedly proud of their healthy lifestyles, fit bodies and "numbers" on their medical tests.

There will always be people who believe in moderation, and in living life to the fullest with good friends, good food and good wine.

I don't understand why people in the vegan camp seem to want to change the lifestyles of others and make them feel guilty. Each to his own.

I was 65 when I completely changed my diet. Not because of weight or any health issue I had, I just wanted to be proactive. My goal is to try to prevent prostate cancer or any other cancer for that matter. (I know people will school me now and tell me that I could still get cancer.) Of course there are no guarantees. The best you can do is reduce your risk for disease.


If he improves his diet, whatever it is, he could possibly reverse his artery disease. But to continue, "his steaks and French fries", it's more likely he would need to add an extra stint about every 3 to 4 years. After about 3 stints, it's likely his doctor would tell him he needs a bypass. And, at any time along the way, he could be in danger of a major cardiovascular event, such as a stroke. So it's not something to take lightly.

Some people, like Clinton and others, prefer life and health. And often they can still find enjoyment in eating. It's just a matter of relearning how to eat. Why not wish them the best for a good life and health?

If you saw someone getting ready to jump off the Golden Gate bridge, wouldn't you try to stop them? Or would you say, "if I stop him, he will take his life at some later time anyway. Might as well let him have what he wants. It's his life. Go ahead, JUMP!" I know, I'm comparing apples and oranges. If someone falls apart slowly, it's much more acceptable.

Feeling guilty seems to imply that you know you're doing wrong. I can't help you with that. But there's no requirement that you follow these threads.

Some people, like myself, appreciate the help. I first learned about the benefits of a vegan diet by reading The China Study. The book was recommended to me on a message board, on another website. And it wasn't a health board. It didn't make me feel guilty; it made me feel as though I got my life back.

sooo true, but you notice there are many repeat naysayers in these diet threads that really have a keen interest.

I heard that vegetarian was just Latin for poor hunter.

Eskimos live on meat. What about other hunter gatherers? They seem to do just fine until they start eating a Western diet with sugar and refined carbohydrates.

I know a Frenchman who is 98 years old. He eats ham, cheese, butter, white bread and daily drinks red wine both at lunch and dinner. He used to smoke.

I don't think Clinton looks that great. I think he looks haggard and skeletal, almost frail. Bush, on the other hand, looks healthy and robust, always has. And walking three miles a day? Pfft... That's nothing. Bush could ride circles around him in the fitness routine area.

Clinton does look gaunt and done in whereas President Bush looks terrific!

I must be too old fashioned because the type of food I eat or do not eat does not enter into the "decision" as to whether it is worth living or dying. My need to be with those I lovehas far too high a priority.

Quality of life is a very personal state, unique to each individual. And up until one is ACTUALLY confronted with the decision to either live or die one has no idea what they would do until then and there. Without being confronted with a real, bonifide, choice of death over life, facing the actual prospect of real death, throwing down the gauntlet of choosing death because of a food choice amounts to nothing more than machismo bragadoccio bravado.

btk

Why would anyone post their confidential medical information on a web site because some stranger asked them too? I think that's nuts. If good or bad health was only a matter of what you eat life would be easy! You have food, genetics, environment, stress, amount of or lack of exercise and the list goes on and on. It always cracks me up when someone tries to put all of the ills of life in one nice basket, good luck with your grazing!

You missed the point by several decades. Yes any sensible person would chose life over a cheeseburger, but I would take 70 years of cheeseburgers before 90 years of lettuce. :spoken:

You mentioned food, genetics, environment, stress and exercise. Unless you can come up with another one, I don't think the list goes "on and on". You can put genetics aside because genes only cause a very small fraction of disease. Degenerative diseases are caused mainly by lifestyle. So that leaves food, environment, stress and exercise.

This thread is about Bush so I would combine environment and stress together. He lived in a stressful environment. His father was president and he himself ran for office several times. This is typical of a type A personality (driven, hard-charging, aggressive). That's what it takes to get to the top.

As far as food, we know he once had a drinking problem. And we know, as a Texan, he was/is a big barbecue guy. That's a no brainer.

That leaves exercise. Didn't the opening post state that he was in three 62 mile bicycle rides? We know he's very competitive. There again we see his type A personality. He's an overachiever and overdoes everything. He takes a pleasurable sport and turns it into stress. Chronic stress leads to elevated stress hormones (cortisol). Higher levels of cortisol leads to insulin resistance and higher levels of insulin (hyperinsulinemia). That, along with poor diet, is how heart disease comes about.

I think it's a pretty good educated guess based on what I know about him.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I believe you are overstepping to make such a statement. There are no facts to stand up to your "good educated guess," and that's about all it is. There are plenty of fit people around here who do 60-mile cycle excursions. Are they all taking a pleasurable sport and turning it into stress? I am astounded by the suppositions in your post, which appear to not be based on true facts about President Bush.

Oh, and I never voted for him.

I know you will come back with numerous points to uphold your suppositions, but ... I stand by my opinion.

Let's look at Warren Buffet. At his favorite restaurant in Omaha he has never been known to eat a green vegetable. He is in his eighties and seems to be doing fine on hamburgers, steaks and cherry coke. When he went to China someone went ahead to teach them how to prepare hamburgers for Warren when he arrived since that was about all he would eat. His buddy Charlie Munger is even older. I do not know what he eats but he still appears to be a functioning genius. Humans are omnivores. J. C. Penney and Conrad Hilton were both overweight and lived well into their nineties. Hilton partied hard, too.

No facts? He served two terms as governor of Texas and two terms as President. Running for office can be a long drawn out stressful process. What kind of person would put himself under that kind of pressure, an easy going laid-back person? Is that your theory?


I don't know all of the "fit people" you're talking about so how would I know if they're turning it into stress? You took my post about one person (Bush) and took it to mean EVERYONE? I don't know everyone. But I do know a lot about Bush. He has been in the public eye for many many years. There was even a movie about his life.


I believe I was using deductive reasoning. I took what I knew about him: 1) He has coronary artery disease. And 2) he is highly competitive/hard charging/aggressive. You don't get to be president by being laid back.

Those are 2 very important facts. Do you deny them?

Once you have those two facts, stress and food is a very good educated guess.

You criticize but have nothing to offer in it's place.

Those are anecdotes. The science of health is not a hard science like math. In math there's usually only one right answer (2+2=4). There's no exception to that. But health is much more difficult because there are always exceptions. However, exceptions don't make the rule. The rule is made by what happens to most people when they do XYZ. For example, overweight people are at higher risk for getting certain diseases like diabetes. And that's determined by doing large long-term studies.