Originally Posted by DAVES (Post 2240998)

I am far from an expert. I recall reading that the normal path for a pandemic runs around three years. Initially there is a strain more likely to kill. When, is disease kills it is less able to be spread.
Covid weakened became less likely to kill. We even had people with no symptoms but would and could spread it to others.

For those who state they do not trust their doctor. Reality, personality yours or theirs in any case, the solution is truly simple time to find another doctor

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2241144)

The only times your last statement would be false:

IF your decision is to NOT vaccinate, AND you became sick, AND you chose not to isolate, AND you got other people sick.

Then, other people would absolutely have to live with the consequences of your decisions.

OR

If your decision is to NOT vaccinate, AND you became sick, AND you did isolate, AND other people who normally would rely on you for things are not able to rely on you for things, AND a hospital bed had to be taken up by you, with the nursing and physician staff attending, AND someone else had to walk your dog, AND someone had to take out your trash, or feed you, or bring you groceries, or whatever else.

Then, other people would absolutely have to live with the consequences of your decisions.

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2241159)

wiley.com is a sales website a publications company that specializes in educational materials. They are in the business of making money off publishing things. It doesn't really matter what - which is evident by the fact that they misspell a pretty important word on their main page; 'Shop Addmissions Tests" The study data appears on their website.

The nextbigfuture.com article uses the same study and analyzes it, comparing it to other studies. The writer of the article is not an immunologist, or a medical scientist. One of the comments reminds everyone that if you look at the entire population - you'll see an increased risk of myocarditis among people who contract COVID is 7 times WORSE than the risk of getting it as a result of the vaccine.

David Strom is a bloviated alt-right propaganda writer. His opinion about any subject at all is 100% irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2241162)

Agreed. Unless you are the family of one of the 1800+ children that died - then you might feel differently.

Originally Posted by tulio (Post 2241226)

Medicine is not a science; it is an art. The government and Fauci scared all of America into believing (and forcing) all of us (Americans) that the virus would kill if not hundreds of millions, everyone who was not vaccinated. It was overreaction at it worst. There were no studies done, just some doctors (not scientists, opinions). Their best guess.
Then they shut down everyone who disagreed with them. Scientists do not do that.
They listen to the opinions of others and then test theories to see which one has the most validity. That did not happen. It was my way or you are fired. I got the vaccine and the booster, but I have no problem with those who did not. If you are so afraid of a virus, that have been with us for centuries and will always be with us, then you need to live in a cave and never be around other people.

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2241376)

Emotional arguments don't help your case...

The incidence of children dying from covid was miniscule...

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2241374)

Being vaccinated does not prevent transmission...

Originally Posted by rpalumberi (Post 2241352)

No expert as well, however, we read that Sweden never shut down, required masks or social distance. Life went on as normal. If only ... After what we have been reading/seeing, not sure why anyone would trust the media or this administration. We're sure someone made a lot of money at our collective expense.

Originally Posted by Blueblaze (Post 2241558)

I lived through the Covid years in a community, where by definition, everyone single person was at "high risk" from dying of a disease that only killed old people.

And yet, to this day, I do not personally know anyone, or even know anyone who knew anyone, who died from Covid--19.

But I personally know two people who nearly died from that stupid experimental vaccine that didn't even work. My next door neighbor had a stroke within 12 hours of getting her first Moderna shot and would have died, but for the fact that we live in a place where emergency care is used to dealing with strokes. And my wife's friend's husband nearly died from a heart attack caused by myocarditis, within 12 hours of receiving his booster, after suffering no ill effects from his previous two shots.

To put that in perspective, I lived through the Polio epidemic, and as a child, took the Salk live virus vaccine that had a 1% chance of actually giving you polio. But, although I knew many polio victims in my childhood, but I never knew a single person who ever got it from, or was in any way harmed by that vaccine.

What makes it even more ridiculous is that we all dutifully took that stupid, dangerous shot AND THEN GOT COVID ANYWAY! I had it THREE TIMES!

I wouldn't take that stupid shot again if you put a gun to my head.

Originally Posted by rpalumberi (Post 2241352)

No expert as well, however, we read that Sweden never shut down, required masks or social distance. Life went on as normal. If only ... After what we have been reading/seeing, not sure why anyone would trust the media or this administration. We're sure someone made a lot of money at our collective expense.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 2241232)

I didn't read the original article so may I pick your brain???? How high a rise in Troponin I did they consider diagnostic of acute myocarditis? As we both know, a one mile jog or a violent coughing spell can give a small Troponin elevation. I've seen patients admitted for ACS from the ER for a Troponin of 0.07 in the absence of ANY other suggestive sx, or even after an MVA with the dx of cardiac contusion. So I guess my concern is the threshold for diagnosing post vaccination myocarditis on the basis of Troponin I alone.

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 2241196)

Wiley online library is a source for reading articles published in their mostly peer reviewed journals. Thus your criticism is bogus. The fact that the article is available free to you indicates that Wiley is willing to allow you access to some copyrighted material that you normally would have to pay to read.

I don't understand why you are arguing that the publishers of medical journals should not charge for their journals. You cannot read the New England Journal of Medicine for free. You cannot read Lancet for free.

This study used the Moderna vaccine. The authors recruited hospital workers in good health and they received the vaccine. No baseline labs were done which would have been useful. At day 3 after the vaccine a troponin cardiac enzyme test was done and those with elevated levels, follow up testing was done.

None of the people with elevated tests became ill, all had normal follow up testing which showed no evidence of injury. Interestingly it was overwhelmingly women, who have a lower baseline level, who showed mild blood test elevations. In the real world it is young men, not middle aged women who have rarely presented with clinical heart issues after vaccination.

The study is interesting and shows that the medical community is continuing to evaluate the vaccine, and publish data which certain people might see as negative. No cover up, no ignoring, no conspiracy. Just medical scientists pursuing information. Like they are supposed to do.

For those of you who had mono [mononucleosis], meaning almost everyone.... It is nearly certain you had hepatitis as the mono virus, EBV, causes a subclinical liver inflammation, meaning you are not liver sick but you have an elevated liver blood test, in about 90% of mono patients. Same story with chicken pox.

The point being that a subclinical mild elevation of a blood test is almost always a nothing burger.

Intense exercise elevates the same heart blood test used in the Swiss study in almost all exercisers. Nobody is going to suggest you don't exercise because it damages your heart as shown by the short term troponin spike

Originally Posted by Two Bills (Post 2241122)

Assuming you went with the scientific experts and had the vaccine, I agree.
I seem to notice that the people still looking for anti-Covid Vaccine stories, are always the skeptics who never were vaccinated.
Are they still unsure of their choice, even paranoid of it?
Most who are vaccinated seem quite happy with their decision, and just get on with their lives.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 2241573)

Shot or post, I'm pretty sure I know which one is "stupid"

Originally Posted by FosterMomma (Post 2241072)

Those of us reading and writing about this are alive and likely so because we either had the vaccines or the majority of those who live around us did. All of us were in the high risk category at least because of our age. That’s enough proof for me.

Originally Posted by shut the front door (Post 2241616)

So the poster you replied to stated that he made his decision and doesn't feel the need to discuss it with others. But you only agree with him if he did it your way. Entitled much? :blahblahblah:

Originally Posted by npwalters (Post 2241635)

I did take the shot - 3 times. However, you have absolutely no way to know if your statement is accurate. The only way to know is if a monitored segment of the peer group did not take the vaccine. In the one European country where they decided to let COVID take its natural course the rates of infection were similar to everywhere else.

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 2241592)

None of the patients were diagnosed with myocarditis. All had a very transient rise in troponin. This is not my field, you may be better equipment to analyze their data. The pre-print article is HERE https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1002/ejhf.2978

The authors tested using high-sensitivity cardiac troponin which has a lower range of normal in females because of their lower cardiac mass. There were 777 persons, 40 of whom showed an increase above "the upper limit of normal" adjusted by sex. "sex-specific 99th-perentile of healthy individuals and upper-limit of normal (ULN) 8.9 ng/L in women and 15.5 ng/L in men,"

In 18 of the 40 they felt other reasons explained the increase [the authors do not say what the other reasons were]. Of the remaining 22 persons, 20 were female and only 2 were male. The median value of those with elevations on day 3 was 13.5 and on day 4 when the test was repeated the median value of those 22 patients was 6.0

All 22 had repeat troponin testing, EKG, and the authors clearly wrote that none were diagnosed with myocarditis, they instead use the term vaccine associated myocardial injury.

Re your comment about exercise, see Just a moment...
where healthy bicycle racers had high sensitivity troponin measurement before, 3 hours after and 24 hours after a race. The median before the race was 1.9 and three hours after was 60, a level none of the vaccine patients reached. 24 hours after the race the troponin level was still over the 99th percentile in about 1/3 of the racers.

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2241391)

Emotional arguments? Is that what you tell the parent of the dead child, that they are only being emotional?

What is the incidence of children being harmed by a vaccine that would reduce that number below 1800? 1800 might be acceptable as long as you are not one of the 1800 families but why not make it 800 or 300 if you can?

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2241392)

Prevent as in 100% will not happen? No.

Prevent as in far less chance? Yes.

I'll take a partial solution over no solution any day.

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2241677)

You're doubling down on your emotional argument...

No basis in science, pure emotion... The worst way to practice medicine...

Originally Posted by JMintzer (Post 2241679)

Far less chance? Sorry, but no... They never tested that...

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2241687)

Yep, I made an assumption there. Since the death rate decreased after the vaccinations became widespread I assumed there was less transmission. Perhaps that was wrong. Perhaps there was the same (or more) transmission and it was only the effectiveness of the vaccine at preventing serious illness or death that caused the numbers to down. Either way, I’ll take it.

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2241685)

Your position is the vaccine does not prevent deaths in children? It seems to me that was tested.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 2241573)

Shot or post, I'm pretty sure I know which one is "stupid"

Originally Posted by Blueblaze (Post 2241903)

There is no more stupid argument than a personal attack. If you don't like a post but can't refute it, you should just "keep your mouth shut and let us wonder if you're an idiot, rather than open it and remove all doubt".

I enjoy a friendly discussion, but detest antagonistic conflict. So in the future, if you read something I say that you don't like, feel free to expose your ignorance and hatefulness to your neighbors, in response - I will never see it, and apparently the moderators don't care. You're blocked.

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 2241918)

Whatever. I have no desire to play Einstein explaining relativity to an amateur

Originally Posted by Two Bills (Post 2241925)

:coolsmiley:
That quick edit probably saved you a slap or worse!:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Originally Posted by golfing eagles (Post 2241928)

Yep. Just an initial reaction to being called ignorant by someone who was clueless about virology and epidemiology

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2241930)

My initial reaction to posts that attack the poster, and not the idea, is to report them. But you do you, Einstein.

Love always,
the chimpanzee