True, but the blogger was a Vegan for nine years before quitting for health reasons! :confused:

I didn't read where he said that, in any event depending on your own individual health issues if any, I suggest that you should monitor your vitals and have blood work done every 60 days or so, work with a doctor.

If I didn't know you better, I'd think you were stalking that old gentleman by looking up his number in the phone book........etc.

What were you eating at the Golden Corral?

I hear you on the death of the elderly........sometimes it's just their time to go.

When we'd visit my mom, there was one 95 year old gentleman who was just a pleasure to chat with; he had a twinkle in his eye and remembered all the "long ago" stories of growing up in the mountains of Vermont, the black flies, his dad's camp, etc. and his love affair with his dear wife who had predeceased him.

He would tell me that he couldn't wait to join her. A year or so later, his back began acting up and he could hardly walk from his chair or bedroom to his bathroom without agonizing pain.......but he still had a delightful sense of humor and all his marbles..........finally, I guess the pain got to be too much for him. He told the head nurse that he was refusing all meals and just wanted WATER ..........he had no chronic or fatal illness other than that he was frail and his back hurt something fierce. Old bones, etc.......which is understandable.

They gave him milkshakes at first and then obliged him with the water alone. He kept telling me he wanted to "go and be with his wife".
He got his wish. We all missed him. The human body cannot go on forever.

My own Italian grandmother, who passed on Good Friday of 1965, told her daughters that she was "retiring to her bedroom and they shouldn't bother her"; she also gave instructions for NO FOOD.......JUST A PITCHER OF WATER......she also wanted to "be with her husband" who had died FIFTY YEARS PRIOR. She also had all her marbles so my aunts obliged her. It took about 7 days. She died one month before my wedding.

She had been mobile but was getting frail in her mid 90's. Died at 95.
Was very active until age 90. For all of our friends and other relatives, 91 seems to be the magic age.........those who do go beyond 100 have amazing genetics.

We know a 95 year old in town who still runs in senior marathons and he doesn't look a day older than 75.....if that. A cheerful, jolly, happy man.
So I agree with those who say joyfulness counts.

My grandmother had a good sense of humor. When my dad and mom brought me and my fiance to meet my grandmother, she took one look at this tall, green eyed sandy blonde haired "youth" and said in broken English......."Oh , he's so handsome........look at those green eyes......
TOO BAD HE'S NOT ITALIAN"...........we all laughed. She had come from Italy at age 16 to marry her Italian fiance from the same village.

SHE HAD BLUE EYES. EVERYONE ELSE HAD DARK BROWN EYES......EXCEPT HER ONE DAUGHTER, MY GODMOTHER.

So, at 95 she still was "sharp as a tack"........but no longer wanted to live...........although she could still admire a handsome young man.

Nowadays, NO ONE HAS TO SUFFER WHEN THEY DIE.
We know a lot of people who have died recently.
They all were given morphine constantly and no one suffered, believe me.

p.s.
Just a memory of another 95 year old gentleman who died, but had waited till his son flew in from Portland, Maine.............he was sitting up in the chair in his hospital room..........not in any pain at all........had the last conversation with his youngest son.......then had some breathing difficulty which gave him a tiny bit of anxiety (as the son told me on the telephone; this was a distant cousin).......the nurse gave him a shot of morphine and he peacefully left this earth.

He had been at home until that day, with end stage lung cancer..........never smoked a day in his life; was a librarian.........anyway, I was told it was a peaceful death as was my mom's a peaceful death as I had sat with her all day at the nursing home by her bedside.

My librarian cousin also had his wonderful intelligence and joy of living right up to the end........but kept saying, as did all the others............"I want to join my wife".
She had died years earlier.

I know the spirit lives on............but that's another discussion........

It was mentioned in the leadup to the article:

"Rhys Southan was vegan for nine years before quitting for health reasons. He critiques the arguments for veganism on his blog Let Them Eat Meat."

That link went no place with any explanation as to what the issues were.

But the interesting or strange thing is that article was his comment

"nutrient missing from veggies. Creatine, carnitine, taurine, cholesterol, DHA, EPA, menaquinone and retinol are sparse to nonexistent in plants."

Seeing cholesterol in that list made me laugh. I may suffer from a cholesterol deficiency being a vegan. Bwaahahahha. ie: 134

"They are “inessential” because our bodies make them from other substances, but our bodies' conversion abilities vary and deficiencies may go undetected."

Did he ever get a blood test?

There is, of course, truth that any one individual may have issues that make them avoid certain foods for allergic reasons but in truth our systems function very similarly.
The one big difference between us all is on the emotional side, and how this affects our perceived choices is terribly important. Our attitudes and mindset are huge variables in setting our nutritional directions.

Barefoot, the choice is yours what change you care to make or not, I led you to several great sources of info....


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[quote=senior citizen;548405]

WHY ALL THE SHOUTING? I CAN HEAR YOU JUST FINE!

I believe you but I wasn't talking about that. Example: The man who had a stroke was confined to his appartment and couldn't go for his daily walks. He couldn't drive his car. He had to have a 24 hour home health aid to cook, shop, bathe and help him on and off the toilet. And for about 15 years leading up to that he had many medical proceedures for heart trouble. THEY DON'T GIVE MORPHINE FOR THESE ISSUES!

My aunt had a radical mastectomy and when the cancer came back she had almost half her brain removed. Then she took lots of prescription drugs and later suffered kidney failure. Most people don't know the miserable life of someone on kidney dialysis. After a long time on dialysis the cancer came back behind her eye and was inoperable. She may or may not have had morphine at the very end but that's not the part of her suffering I was referring to.

The above man was her long time friend and they could no longer see each other because he was confined to his appartment and she went to assisted living. It was a very depressing situation for both of them because they used to see each other every day.

The man I had referred to with cancer was my neighbor. His suffering came when he had to go for chemotherapy. Evidently, at his age it must have been very difficult for him as he was living alone. He was the one who was wishing he would die. And my Aunt's friend said the same.

I wonder what the point of this thread is. And the other threads along the same lines.

I just can't seem to feel the good will by the proponents of the life style they think is so healthy. I wonder what the motivating factor is in this desire to instruct. Is it the fear of death?

The OP seems to worry a great deal about death and the ending of life.

No matter what is said, it is challenged.

It sort of feels like a pithing contest.

This is the first thread that I know of on genetics. But even if it was the second or third, are you in charge of deciding what is acceptable for this board?

You were the one who raised the issue of length of life, not me. That's what lead the discussion in that direction. I simply responded to it. Then others picked up your lead and I responed to it again.

Is it good will on your part to constantly object to any thread promoting a healthy lifestyle? Where is the good will in that?


Yes, I also notice you following all of these threads and challenging anyone who starts a thread for the purpose of promoting or informing others about health. Then when I respond you try to make me the bad guy?

A reminder to discuss the topic and not each other, please.

Thank you,

Moderator

Far from it, I thought it was the joy of living a long healthy life.

I'm sure that people that think diet is BS and rather pop pills don't follow these threads anyway.

I have personally received many emails and PM's regarding the vegan diet, that is enough motivation for me to bring to light info that is appropriate to medical & heath discussions.


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[quote=Villages PL;548911]

Yes, I can imagine the scenario you paint and can remember it well as I watched elderly loved ones pass away “slowly”.

Life isn’t fair at times. Not every death is quick and neat. It’s different for everyone.
I could relate to that home health aide you mentioned as I cared for my mom with Alzheimers in my own home until near the very end.

At that time she had to go into a skilled nursing home as I could no longer bathe her; but I do “hear you”. It’s a sad progression for some elderly.


However, if you look at it from a different perspective..........it’s a learning experience for someone else.

It was for me as it is for other caregivers and other family members as well who are just entering that final phase.


I can “top you” on horrible ways to “pass”. We have two elderly gentlemen, both in their 80’s, one an uncle; the other a distant cousin.


Both died in Florida, living alone in a mobile home (or trailer).........no one checked on them in the heat of summer.

Both expired on their sofa / couch..........when found, it wasn’t a pretty sight to behold....given the heat and humidity.

My mom was told her baby brother, 87, had maggots on him. Ditto for the distant cousin of an inlaw of ours.......also late 80’s.


They had each lost their lifelong spouses earlier...........and it wasn’t until some of the out of state children received no response, did someone check in on them.


The ones we’ve seen die, were all in a hospital setting due to the end of life after long term illness......some in Hospice, some just after “comfort” or “palliative care”.

Those were peaceful and the staff was wonderful in all cases.


But even those with PERFECT HEALTH.........can die in the blink of an eye up here.........young people, middle aged people, etc.......if their car collides with a MOOSE or DEER or ice patch.

No sense to become obsessed with death. Just enjoy the life you have now. Look at the unsuspecting folks of all ages who got on the planes September 11th on a beautiful autumn day.
They didn’t know it would be their last one on earth. I can’t even imagine the fear they must have felt. Or, our brave soldiers overseas....thinking the war is winding down. One never knows.

Yes, as I've tried to say in the past........no one can truly change their spouses habits........whether it's being a chain smoker for 50 years or enjoying key lime pie and cookies for dessert.......mine would certainly rather have the potato chips than a baked potato (which is what I would choose)........

I'm thinking that a single man, never been married,never had children, never had inlaws to invite over for family gatherings (and they are all different in their tastes and beliefs)........would not understand what the wives of our generation has been through these past several decades.

Years ago, people enjoyed feasting on holidays. Now , many are choosy about what they consume, due to dietary restrictions or medical health issues........which I "get".

However, it is hard on the preparer of food, the shopper of groceries , to oblige everyone...........if I put out al raw veggies and cooked veggies , all of which I love.........the meat eaters would not be happy. Our adult children have friends who are vegans.........I prepare food for them. I also prepare for everyone else.......it's like running a restaurant these days.

Can't go wrong with a big fresh shrimp platter with cocktail sauce and lemon wedges........for most folks.........and lots of crudites for the vegans...........good thing I'm half Italian and like to cook in volume and can prepare many varieties of food........something for everyone...including gooey desserts. Never seen a man pass that up.

Wives usually oblige the husband's tastes........or end up in divorce court. I know quite a few of those who wouldn't ALLOW their husbands to watch television.

It doesn't pay to wage battle over every little morsel they consume. No one can force an adult male (or woman) to change their eating habits........they can suggest, they can mention what they've read, etc...........but ultimately, it's up to the individual.

I don't think a single man who has never had children can understand this logic. I'm sure the women know exactly what I'm saying.

This is why, as we get older........it's much easier to GO OUT AND EAT.
Our guests can then choose what they want from the menu. But often we still have to host big gatherings when the kids all return home with the grandchildren and everyone wants to see them...........this is when I feel like I'm cooking for an army............of varying tastes and I do try to oblige those with different choices of food.

Nothing in this life is black or white. One person's perspective is only from where that person is coming from..........it doesn't necessarily jive with how the rest of us live or have lived.

WE all know what is healthy vs. what is NOT healthy.
But living the life of a rigid vegan is not always easy when other mainstream folks are included.....or lived with.

There was a long term (25yr.) population study of Okinawans. The book that describes it came out in 2001: "The Okinawa Program"

Americans eat a lot more animal protein as follows: (percentages are by weight)

..........................................Okinawan s...................Americans...............

Meat/poultry/eggs.....................3%....................... ......29%...................

Fish.........................................11%.. .........................< 1%................

Dairy.......................................< 2%............................23%................

Total animal protein..................16%...................... ...53%...........


Yearly cancer deaths per 100,000 people:

............................................Okinaw a..........................U.S.................

Breast........................................6... ..............................33................

Ovarian.......................................3... ...............................7.................

Prostate......................................4... ..............................28..............

Colon..........................................8.. ................................19.............


Note: You might also find it interesting that Okinawans eat a lot more vegetables than Americans: 34% vs 16%. And Okinawans have 50% less risk for hip fracture, even though Americans eat substantially more dairy products. What does that tell you about dairy?

Life expectancy for Okinawans: 81.2 years

Life expectancy for Americans: 76.8 years

Well, with all due respect, I have to say that this has never been about the problems that families have. Of course all families have problems. This is about what constitutes a healthy diet.

I would hesitate about speaking for everyone. In my experience, not everyone knows what is healthy vs. what is not healthy. Why do we have Weight Watchers in the Villages? Why do we have weight loss clubs in the Villages? Why do we have a very large diabetes club in The Villages? Why do we have the club, "Eat Right For Your Blood Type"? We also have a few vegan clubs where people exchange ideas. There are also a few other businesses located in The Villages that cater to people who are willing to pay for weight loss solutions. I think one of them is Medi-fast.

I would never presume to speak for everyone.

Anecdote 1) One day I was having a discussion with my neighbor in The Villages. She was looking for ideas on how to lose weight. So I said, "Well, one idea is to eliminate processed foods that contain added sugar". And she said, "We need sugar in our diet; we can't live without sugar!" She was obviously confused. We do need glucose to function but we can get that from eating natural whole foods. We don't need processed foods with added sugar.

2) When I was a care giver for my mother a social worker came over for a vist. She mentioned that she switched over to a vegetarian diet to lose weight but wasn't having any luck. After a few minutes of talking about it she mentioned that she liked to snack on hard candy in the evening. I told her that could be the problem......the extra (empty) calories. She was suprised to hear that! And she was not an uneducated person. She was a social worker for the state of Florida.

3) A woman who died on my street was said the be the most health minded of anyone, yet she died relatively young. This was supposed to be an example of how it doesn't pay to try to be healthy......because you never know. Well, a year later I was told that she did a lot of baking. They said she was baking something every day. So I said, "I thought she was supposed to be very health minded. Eating a lot of baked goods isn't healthy." And they said, "Yes, it's healthy when it's FRESH baked!! (Think white flour, sugar, low fiber etc..)

I have always believed in pre determined...If you believe we all have a pre determined experation date , then whats the point ?

I believe in assisted ending of life....Why not ? Who's buisness is it anyway?
My life my choice,,,we kill unborn babies everyday , so why not let a grown up decide for him or herself ? Who am I to decide for you ? Who are you to decide for me ? In many countries it is already legal and here in the U.S. I believe it is legal in Oregon , but with restrictions... More impotantly it's your right. Just like freedom of speech and don't let anyone take it from you...Whoops they already did and do !

Suppose you're right, say your date is 10 years out.

Do you want to have those last few years in good health active enjoying your time you worked for?

Or spend those remaining years limited by poor health, or having your chest cracked open etc.

As a fatalist you must believe you r here for a pre-determined purpose, if you don't stay in good heath you may not be able to accomplish that purpose and then what :shrug: :1rotfl:

The way to change anyone's mind about your philosophy or your religion or your regemin is to live well, and to act in such a way that folks enjoy being with you and to be so happy that others see a reason to emulate your ways.

I heard a sermon once about Christianity that really struck my heart. The priest said;

"We are called to preach the Gospel, even if we have to use words."

Continuing to repeat and repeat, to harp on the same subject again and again is not teaching. It is parenting.

I very much appreciate those things I have learned from Jimbo and VillagesPl. and have changed my diet in a couple of ways due to the research that they have linked me to from medical teaching institutions that I trust. I am eating less beef and more chicken and fish.

I should maybe rethink my drinking habits. I don't come anywhere close to the case of beer my father drank daily before he died at 94.

WOW!!!! or Boy Howdy!!!

You made my day.

I hope to meet you on the 21st, oh the drinking in "moderation" is really ok.


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If I tried living well and acting in a good way as a means to getting my ideas across, would anyone see it on the internet? I'm not exactly sure how that works.

That's because, on the internet, there are constantly new people passing through who haven't heard the message. And as long as someone responds, especially in negative ways, there is something to discuss. There are always new threads on the board with subjects I'm not interested in so I don't participate. But when I do that, I'm "acting in a certain way," but I guess no one sees it. So I have to say it: If a thread is not of interest, why participate?

Always glad to be of help. Sorry if that sounds kind of flat but I'm not very good at taking compliments. Especially after being worn-down by all the naysayers. I need to get some rest. ;)

Are you a beer drinker? How can anyone drink beer and maintain a normal weight? I know I would feel bloated if I drank just one.

Each day brings something new.

Genetics Breakthrough Changes Thinking About DNA

Soon, maybe we'll have more answers to the topic question in this thread....Degenerative diseases of the Elderly...Are They All Genetic?

Might not be everyday reading for many of you, but hopefully, this can help us all.

USF Health Alliance had a lecture on this subject several months ago and a doctor suggested that it probably won't help us in our lifetime. Most doctors will never say that genes are "context sensitive" because that would suggest that we can do something for ourselves now. And doing something for ourselves has nothing to do with the practice of medicine. The USF Health Alliance, and those doing genetic research, would rather have us just wait and do nothing, rather than cause a distraction from research.

Jimbo for a moment lets assume that your belief in the way you live is right. Who though is to say what the pre-determined purpose of one life is? maybe the pre-determined purpose is ill health and by accomplishing ill health medical knowledge is advanced and thousands of others enjoy the benefits of one person accomplishing their pre-determined purpose, ill health, who knows?

Cantwait
 

That is so true. Can't tell you what a gift my late husband's early death from colon cancer has been to all of us. He truly was a gift both in life and in death and I was truly blessed to have had him in my life if only until he was 37.

I never would have learned and wanted to learn all that I have since then and my second husband too is a blessing as he has encouraged me to continue on this path, which he had too had been on.

We don't know why things happen the way they do, but there is a silver lining to every apparent misfortune and it isn't usually seen except in hindsight.

Thank you for pointing this out. It is such an important perspective and can add so much joy to your life. No one benefits from staying stuck in sad memories.

LW888

LW888 what a GREAT attitude and outlook on life.

I'm not touching that one..............................

That's right, who is to say what the purpose is? No one! So let's just do our best. What's the alternative, to do our worst? Even if we, here in The Villages, all enjoyed excellent health, there would still be millions of people in poor health. I'll be content to let others offer up their poor health for the advancement of medical knowledge.

None of us can know what the entire medical community thinks or what their motives are. There are many doctors to choose from in this world and so far I have had some very ethical, very well educated physicians who were focused on doing their job right and who followed the Hippocratic oath .

I am surprised, because of my experiences with doctors to meet people who think that the entire medical community are out to delude them.

I trust the doctors we consult more than I would trust a layman who has a theory .

All of your above statements are true but you do not take into account the fact of their education, training, desire to try something different and time constraints. For the most part they are educated and trained to treat symptoms with medications.

For the most part, doctors are as unknowledgeable about nutrition as the general population. Although, I'm sure they know certain things like not to combine grapefruit with certain meds. etc..

Trust them for what? That's the all important question. I'm sure they are very good at prescribing medicine, inserting stints, doing bypass operations and removing prostates etc.. In other words, they are very good at practicing medicine as usual. It's profitable.