I thought it was a strange reference to bring up---thalidomide.

But my wife came back from her dental appointment a little while ago and she saw an article---now get this----in "People" magazine about thalidomide victims that are still alive today.

So now we know the source of the thalidomide reference---"People" magazine :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
Maybe the claim that drug companies pay physicians can be found in "people" as well. Right next to the dress so and so wore to the Oscars and whose celebrity marriage is on the rocks. At least now we know what we are dealing with.

The source of the Thalidomide reference is that it is common knowledge to everyone in our age group. The fact that People magazine covered it (which I never saw because I don't read People but get your reference material wherever you choose), is proof of the common knowledge part of it. Although your point about it being very old is not relevant, here are some more recent ones:
1) VALDECOXIB
It was an NSAID pain medication that had been in the market from 2001-2005 but this was recalled by the FDA in 2005 because it was causing adverse heart effects including heart attack, and severe serious skin reactions like epidermal necrolysis and erythema multiforme.

2) PEMOLINE
It was a nerve stimulant drug that was used to treat ADD and ADHD till 2010. It was firstly given a slight warning in 1999, but due to no further improvement, it was finally recalled and now it is among those drugs that are banned in the US.

3) SIBUTRAMINE
It was an appetite suppressant drug that was causing serious heart threats to the patients who used to take it, so it was banned by the FDA reviewer Dr. David Graham in the senate hearing of 2004. Now it is a completely banned drug in the USA by the FDA.

4) TROGLITAZONE
It was used as an antidiabetic and anti-inflammatory drug in the span of 1997-2000 but due to its severe adverse effects on liver and heart lead to lawsuits and ultimately a recall by the FDA.

5) EFALIZUMAB
This chemical drug was used to treat psoriasis but it caused progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy in many patients who then had to face inflammation and damage to their central nervous system, so it was recalled in 2009

The point which you are so strongly trying to divert from is that medical doctors are not so above reproach that they can start asserting that chiropractic is a scam. In fact, "10 percent of all U.S. deaths are now due to medical error" which is the 3rd leading cause of death in the U.S.

Study Suggests Medical Errors Now Third Leading Cause of Death in the U.S. - 05/03/2016

I know, I know, since it contradicts your point of view, we will discount it as only Johns Hopkins, not a reputable source, just like the National Institute of Health.

My point in this discussion has never been to attack or disrespect doctors. I have great respect for many in the medical profession. My point has been, don't act all high and mighty attacking a profession that has done great medical benefit to many and has killed way less than your profession.

And the whole vibe in the posts from the two (obvious) doctors in this thread totally reinforces the stereotype of arrogant and dismissive, which results in the 3rd highest cause of death.

That is a real shame. So sad as to preclude me throwing a bunch of ROFL emojis in my post to try to make me seem so much better than others.

Wait. The other doctor made it clear they couldn't give so much as a pen. You must be making up some wild story about receiving donuts since THAT could never happen according to your colleague.

That was 20+ years ago, before they changed the rules...

They also used to give us pens and post-it notes...

I can't be bought by donuts, but post-it notes? I'll write for any drug you got! :laugh:

So out of thousands of great drugs there have been some harmful drugs. What does that have to do with practicing medicine? And are the KCChiefs “arrogant” when they say that they’re better than the Wildwood ha team? It’s not the chiropractors fault, they simply aren’t playing in the same league as we are. What’s scary is that there are people who think they are

That is laughable. I have never gotten any relief from a medical doctor when I threw my back out despite them merely throwing muscle relaxants or pain pills at it. I have gotten significant relief from chiropractors. But feel free to keep your arrogance about how great you are. The rest of us will seek the appropriate professional for the injury or illness we face. Sometimes that will be a medical doctor, sometimes a chiropractor, sometimes a dentist.

I also notice that when I pointed out a drug that the almighty medical doctors prescribed for years that horribly maimed thousands, you said that was so long ago ( I bet no quack chiropractor would ever have thought prescribing that was a good idea). When I pointed out recent ones, you say that's only 5. And you failed to address the fact that doctors are the third leading cause of death in the U.S. according to the fly-by night anti-medical establishment Johns Hopkins. Very good at deflecting and self admiring.

The fact that you don't realize that they are not playing the same sport as you is the amusing part.

I have never gotten any relief from a medical doctor when I threw my back out despite them merely throwing muscle relaxants or pain pills at it.

Excellent---a scientific study of ONE. Maybe you could publish that in the New England Journal of Medicine.

The rest of us will seek the appropriate professional for the injury or illness we face.

Hopefully you are not the spokesperson for "the rest of us". I would hope "the rest of us" have the good judgement to first see a qualified professional and not a snake oil salesman.

But feel free to keep your arrogance about how great you are.

Again, it's not arrogance when it is a simple fact. As stated above, the Kansas City Chiefs are not "arrogant" when they state they are a better football team than Wildwood HS. Also as stated above, we are not playing the same game in the same league. It's not me personally, the debate is over the qualifications of board certified medical doctors and specialists vs glorified masseuses.

The real arrogance is an amateur with very little medical knowledge, thinking they can intelligently debate this subject with 2 experts. I'd hate to be your electrician or plumber or mechanic---debate with them as well?

( I bet no quack chiropractor would ever have thought prescribing that was a good idea).

That's because no state that I know of would ever let chiropractors prescribe pharmaceuticals. OMG, speak of disasters.

the fact that doctors are the third leading cause of death

Not "a fact" That study was thoroughly debunked. It's a long explanation that I doubt you would understand, but the short version is that study used data, such a medication being administered by a nurse 30 minutes late sometime during a hospital stay as a cause of death. Let's get this straight----the study counted Tylenol, prescribed by a physician, to a terminal cancer patient in the hospital that was given 1/2 hour late 2 weeks prior to death as a "medication error" that resulted in death.

But here's something that doesn't even require a study: Doctors are the number 1 cause of saving lives. I wonder how many chiropractors have saved a life :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Best advice: Quit while you are behind and cut you losses.

That’s what they call it.

Have know a few chiropractors, on the golf course, but would never see them as a patient. But I know some who swear by them…to each his own. Some chiropractors won’t even bill out insurance, you are on your own to file paperwork. Fitting in seems to be standard procedure for their offices

If so, that's complete nonsense...

The "New Patient" code allows for a higher payment to help cover those costs, as well as the extra time it takes to initially evaluate a patient...

Never claimed it to be a scientific study, but it has happened so many time with so many different doctors over the years ( I have lived in so many places and traveled extensively for work) that it is clearly not an isolated incident. With each and every "medical professional" I received no relief and suffered for a couple of weeks. For the vast majority of chiroporactors, I have gotten instant relief and better in a couple of days. But please tell me, what you (the all-knowledgable one) would have done differently other than prescribe ice and/or heat or the same prescriptions. I would really love to know.

I would hope that most people don't suffer for weeks by seeing the true snake oil salesmen when it comes to throwing your back out and will seek the help of a good chiropractor who can actually help them.

I know you have bought into your god complex but I haven't. The post was about a $120 new patient charge at a chiropractor before two pompous doctors decided to start trashing chiropractors. On post 51 of the thread, you think you get to decide the debate is about the qualifications of board certified medical doctors????? NO ONE was debating that. If you are able to read, please point me to any prior post that even hinted at that topic.


1. It sounds like you were the type of doctor that told your patients to shut up you didn't need to hear from them, you were the doctor. We were not debating the best treatement for a recurrent GBM (A topic for another time on how medical experts can and do screw up royally). We were discussing whether or not chiropractors are snake oil salesmen. But of course you are the expert. Please point me to the peer reviewed study backing up your claim. Or please post your extensive study in the area of chiropractic that makes you an expert. Do you think you were born with or were bestowed some magical gene that makes you qualifed to discuss medical topics and that all the other mere mortals are idiots who could not think critically or research extensively.
2. Yes, in fact, I do argue with my plumber. When he installed my water softener backwards, and when he had no idea that I needed or how to give me makeup air because of my installing a vent hood with 1200 cfm blower. See, I can read directions and research topics that matter to me. I am capable of learning and I am not so arrogant to think that others couldn't possibly know as much as me. By the way, the certified plumber didn't know the makeup air was code or why it was code. I don't argue with my electrician because he is awesome and knows his stuff. I don't argue with my mechanic because I don't care to spend the time learning that stuff. Are you claiming that certified mechanics know everything about your car and someone who knows about cars shouldn't argue with them when they get things wrong?


I know right. We will leave the maiming of babies and causing heart issues in otherwise healthy adolescents to the true professionals. They are so good at it, no need to let chiroprators in on that "fun."
Hmmm. Two MD's (also known by you as gods not to be questioned by mere mortals) did the study. So, are MD's snake oils salesmen or gods? I am confused. And thoroughly debunked I'm sure means huge amount of negative press to discredit it by those who don't want their reputations stained in the same way that the COVID vaccine was "thoroughly tested." Please provide the real data then. I would be curious on what the real numbers show, since you don't buy into the work of the medical doctors who study these things.


How many teachers save lives? How many dentists save lives? How many electricians save lives? Are all those professions snake oil salesmen because they don't save as many lives as doctors? Please, Please tell me you put more thought into patient care than you do into logic!!! And adding the multiple ROFL icons. You two are like two little school girls giggling at your poor attempts to bully.
And here is something that doesn't require a study either. The ratio of people killed by doctors to lives saved is exponentially higher than that of chiropractors. I am sure the doctors where doing the bloodletting were just as arrogant about how they know everything too at the time.
I am sure you would like for me to quit before you are too embarassed. It really does bother you that everyone doesn't bow down to you while you trash others doesn't it?

Yep, we're really, really embarrassed. Our embarrassment stems from our inability to stop you from repeatedly making a complete fool of yourself. To paraphrase Shakespeare, "Some posts are a tale told by an idiot---full of sound and fury but signifying nothing"

Yep. I post logical info, point out specific points, post links to studies done by doctor, and ask legitimate questions for you to back up your ravings, and your response is the equivalent of "I know you are but what am I?"

I am thinking an equivalently mature response to your post is "I am going to tell my mom that you are being mean to me."

You really think that, don’t you? Ok, I’ve already explained the way things are, but I can’t understand it for you. Plus it’s hard to educate someone with poor reality testing. I’m still at a loss to figure out how anyone could possibly think chiropractors are In even some minor way comparable to physicians. Maybe the fact that they have been permitted to use the title “Dr.”, but any similarity ends there. Nevertheless I wish you well and hope you have continued success with your chiropractor

Thank you for the well wishes. I am sure I will continue to have great success. Legacy Chiropractic is outstanding.

Educating someone implies imparting knowledge and that is not what you want to do. You want everyone to buy into your over inflated opinion of yourself that you try to build up by tearing others down.

Did I say that chiropractors are equivalent to medical doctors? (I'll wait while you search in vain for that.) I said I have great respect for many doctors. I said thank God that chiropractors do what they do, medical doctors do what they do, dentists do what they do. But you are not happly unless others say medical doctors are the only profession with any worth and chiropractors are snake oil salesmen.
And you offer NOTHING other than hubris to back up your claim and dismissiveness to anyone who isn't buying the crap you are selling.

But they do seem to have some dubious billing practices...

Possibly. Are you going off of the OP, or do you have some more extensive knowledge of their billing practices?

I can't speak to what everyone else has been billed. I know that they have never billed me anything dubious and my insurance covers their snake oil medicine. And I have had some dubious billing from some medical doctors too. But I promise not to paint an entire profession or a single office with a broad brush based on single experiences.

OK, truce. Neither of us are going to change each other's mind. Perhaps if you had watched a 42 year old nursing supervisor die a painful protracted death over a 6 month period because she went to a chiropractor who treated her with "adjustments" 2x/week for 8 months without so much as an x-ray or a medical opinion you might feel differently. If she was brought into your ER with paralysis below the waist which took me all of 10 minutes to diagnose you'd feel differently. Perhaps if you saw the spinal tumor on her CT that was eroding her spinal cord and clearly inoperative at this point 8 months later you might feel differently. Perhaps, upon sending her to the University for emergency RT, knowing she probably was never going to survive, you might feel differently. Maybe not.

If you knew me, you would know I am far from arrogant. It's was only that "high praise for chiropractors" that set me off, emotionally, because of the above experience and a few others. I think I made a pretty succinct post about my real feelings regarding chiropractors. I also think we both reverted to childish posts from that point on. For my 1/2, I'll take the high road and apologize.

And I sincerely meant it when I stated I hope you bet relief from your pain

PS: I went to repost what I truly felt about chiropractors, I even had the post #, but it got removed, for no reason I can think of. The short version was that I referred patients to chiropractors because traditional medicine often fails to help those with chronic pain. My only prerequisite was that we made a medical diagnosis first and the person had at least a trial of traditional medication/physical therapy/modalities.

I can accept a truce and apologize for being snarky also.

No doubt providing care for that patient after a hack chiropractor was guilty of malpractice would trigger an emotional and very negative response. But as you stated, a case of one does not a study make nor a journal of medicine article to be written. And you know that there are many cases of medical malpractice that would make others have that same emotion. You had to have seen at least one case in your career that bothered you also.

But I will embrace the truce and I wish you the best also. I hope if nothing else out of my posts, you accept the point that I have great respect for many medical professionals and appreciate what they do for us as individuals and a society.

Personally I am a HUGE fan of physical therapy which has worked really well for me on a few occasions.