Talk of The Villages Florida - Legal constitutional grounds for vaccine mandates

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- - Legal constitutional grounds for vaccine mandates (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/medical-health-discussion-94/legal-constitutional-grounds-vaccine-mandates-323498/)

[QUOTE=Boomer;1996881]If in the above quoted post, the word 'gov' were to be changed to the word 'Facebook' it would perfectly describe what we are seeing all around us.

Whoops, here is the second quote from mdlnb, that for some reason did not grab in green and I don't have time to fix it. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdlnb (Post 1996800)

ah, but you are not speaking of the law. There is no law mandating the vaccination or masks....yet. As far as i know martial law has not been declared. In america we still have the constitution and bill of rights.

I may not agree with those that refuse to get vaccinated, and i may think that masks have little use if they are not made for this particular virus or worn properly, but i respect other's ability to make their own life choices. On the other hand, i do not demand others to live according to my desires. i don't care for red colored cars, but i do not feel they should be banned from the villages.

- - - -

mdlnb,

And, about those red cars. . .What if all the red car drivers joined together to form a big club where membership meant that members were to drive like idiots, not caring how many innocent pedestrians and stop sign obeying other drivers they were picking off?

Then, what would you think about those red cars?

. . .But, in seriousness, may I ask you how you would feel if you or someone you love or know could not get a heart operation or some other kind of much needed surgery because UNvaccinated Covid patients were hogging the beds in hospitals? It's happening. Hospitals are now concerned about collateral deaths.

Your opinion comes from the freedom and liberty angle, I know. I love freedom and liberty as much as any American. But what is making me really want to hurl is that those beloved words are being used against us by those with ulterior motives. Those who started all this mess of dysinformation and conspiracy theories are in it for the money, the love of chaos, and/or their wanting to undermine our democracy.

(Oh, well, I have probably just wasted too much valuable television time for watching Bosch with Mr. Boomer. . .But, before I go, I hope you will give me an answer about what you think about those collateral deaths that will result from the Unvaccinated refusing to take responsibility -- for their freedom.)

Boomer

Those deaths are unfortunate. Just because I do not agree with an action someone takes, does not mean that they must conform to my standards. Sorry, but people do die and sometimes it may be a result of someone else's inaction.

I do not understand why folks always resort to using traffic law as an argument about unrelated subjects. Traffic law pertains to those that volunteer to drive. No one MUST drive. That is a something that one wishes to do and by making that choice they also choose to abide by traffic laws. It has nothing to do with vaccinations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan (Post 1996921)

No, your right to choose ends when it affects my health and safety. You can not drive 100mph through a neighborhood, because your right to drive ends when it endangers my life. You can not drive your car while intoxicated because it endangers my life.

So, your body your right? Nope, if you die, your body can not be buried in your back yard, it affects your neighbor's safety.

The number of examples is almost endless.

And none of your examples pertain to the subject matter.

Which is freedom? Mask mandates in schools to protect community health or a governor making mask mandates against the law even in privately own businesses without a logical, scientific reason??

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDLNB (Post 1996769)

Your opinion. Some like gov control and some enjoy the freedom of controlling their own lives. Right now, at least we have the happy illusion of freedom.

There is a lot of government control concerning safety of the public. As examples school children must be vaccinated against many diseases before entering School has kindergarteners or otherwise. Cigarettes may not be smoked in many places by law. Seat belts used or you can get ticketed . Speed limits etc

And freedom is often given up for the common good, has Spock said on Star Trek, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

This thread started out pondering the constitutional grounds for vaccine mandates. Predictably, it has made several detours along the way. It never ceases to amaze me just how many armchair lawyers live amongst us, and how willing they are to dispense legal advice and opinion. I get it...too many keyboard kommandoes simply can't help themselves, and must jump into the maelstrom.

As for what is, or is not constitutional, consider this: The final arbiter regarding the constitutionality of any issue is the U.S. Supreme Court. Nine men and women deemed to be the best and the brightest legal minds our country has to offer. Yet, how many "decisions" come down to a vote of 5-4, or even 6-3? So...even the elite constitutional minds in this country cannot agree on what is or is not constitutional. We're the issues so patently cut and dried, would not all votes come down 9-0? Or, is there always some other agenda in play? Food for thought.

So your saying courts don’t let you
present evidence that your sane and your ex wife is lying ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDLNB (Post 1996769)

Your opinion. Some like gov control and some enjoy the freedom of controlling their own lives. Right now, at least we have the happy illusion of freedom.

An Israeli case study conducted by researchers at top Ivy League universities appeared to confirm that natural immunity was 27 times more effective than vaccines at preventing symptomatic transmission of the deadly coronavirus.

“This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant,” they wrote, according to medRxiv.

But according to Harvard epidemiologist Martin Kulldorff, the research debunked the arguments for vaccine mandates.

“Prior COVID disease (many working class) provides better immunity than vaccines (many professionals), so vaccine mandates are not only scientific nonsense, they are also discriminatory and unethical,” Kulldorff wrote Twitter, according to Red Voice Media.

His argument reinforced recent statistical evidence that the vaccine mandates, supported by the Biden administration and many blue-state governors, may be racist, since the majority of “vaccine hesitant” individuals in the US were black or Latino.

Yes debating facts is part of the issue

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkagele (Post 1996828)

Maybe you're correct. Maybe not. I just don't know enough about it to really know for sure.

What does concern me, however, is the overwhelming ban on dissenting opinions. It seems to me we're being forced to believe only one version of 'facts'. Big tech, social media and mainstream media are effectively banning legitimate debate.

Try bringing up the rise in infections in Israel even in vaccinated folks despite having the highest vaccination rate in the world? Nope. Twitter won't allow any discussion.

Let's talk about Viet Nam having the lowest infection rate in world until it started its mass vaccination program. Now infections in that country are going through the roof. Nope. Facebook will ban you.

What about the publisher that's posting articles on its web site about the vaccines not being nearly as effective as we've been led to believe. Or, recapping some studies showing the vaccines may be temporarily damaging your immune system. Nope. Google will de-platform you and take away your ad revenue.

Advocate for people that have recovered from the 'thank you very much China' COVID not needing the vaccine because their immune system is infinitely better than that of a vaccinated person and probably for a much longer period of time. Nope. The mainstream media labels you as a conspiracy theorist.

We're being told what 'facts' are true and being told the rest is disinformation. The law is being determined with dissenting debate being stifled. And maybe what may be more frightening, a lot of folks are OK with that.

With regard to Vietnam.....based on what I read they were successful during the first wave of the pandemic thanks to strict isolation rules (that surely wouldn't go over well here). They are now suffering a huge spike in cases because only about 1.8% of the population is vaccinated and the Delta variant is running wild because it's more contagious. You made it sound like their spike in cases is due to the vaccine. Perhaps Facebook wouldn't allow debate on this specific subject because it's not debating the facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luggage (Post 1997009)

And freedom is often given up for the common good, has Spock said on Star Trek, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

I think they call that socialism. Replace GOD with GOV and you get communism. Sorry, but REAL independent Americans will choose a few deaths over GOV control. And this has nothing to do with traffic laws, so please don't bother with that argument.

What Americans do voluntarily for their fellow man/woman is called charity. What the gov demands you do is called tyranny. Given a choice, Americans do the right thing and do not need a gov nanny demanding what the gov deems appropriate.

As the Germans said many years ago get on the train we are going to take you to a safe place, it’s for your own good and the safety of your neighbors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindsyburnsy (Post 1996996)

Which is freedom? Mask mandates in schools to protect community health or a governor making mask mandates against the law even in privately own businesses without a logical, scientific reason??

and

There is a logical scientific reason. Masks aren't nearly as effective as certain entities make you think they are. The governor of Oregon is making people wear masks indoors and out even if you've been vaccinated and/or had the virus. She doesn't know. She only wants to control.

Control starts small and gets larger. Australia passed a law prohibiting demonstrations a few years ago. No one objected. No big deal, right? Now its citizens are being beaten and arrested for protesting that government's draconian lockdown measures. They don't even want you to socialize with your neighbors.

With the government, it's not about logic or science. It's about power and control.

You would love living in china. The rulers/controlers will tell you how to live your life. The big pharma industry has more lawsuits from injuries stemming from the toxic products. It is not about health, it is about profit. Research products that are approved by the FDA them proven to cause harm.Take responsibility for your health. Research who controls the health industry, who started it. There are cancer cures and we watch our love one die (500,000 yr). Most people who believe in the cdc & fda need to take the time to research if you truly care about humanity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accidental1 (Post 1997051)

You make my point. Here's what I read:

"As of early June, almost no one in Vietnam was vaccinated. Today, almost 20 percent of the country has received at least one dose. On August 23 they have implemented this so-called Directive 16 for two weeks which is like martial law at this point...

Areas in the red zones are not allowed to shop at supermarkets for two weeks. Supposedly their plan was to have the military do the shopping for you and they can deliver it at your doorstep."

I trust my source so I think I'm correct. So who is going determine the 'facts'? Do you really think Facebook is qualified to do so? With healthy debate, we'd share sources and probably come to a consensus which fact is correct. Plus, the current administration admits its working with FB to control misinformation. What could possibly go wrong?

This isn't about science and facts. It's about power and control.

The masks are worthless, you have been played.
There is no statistical difference between children who do and do not wear masks in school.
My personal freedom is very important and comes with a great deal of responsibility.
The government is inept and I do not trust anything they say.
I refuse to be inoculated with an experimental drug.
I think stupid people should not be allowed in stores unless their IQ is tested.
If anyone thinks I am going to give up my freedoms, you are in for a fight.
Now where to get more ammo?