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Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   Medical and Health Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/medical-health-discussion-94/)
-   -   National Institutes of Health Physicians Pushing a Plant-Based Diet (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/medical-health-discussion-94/national-institutes-health-physicians-pushing-plant-based-diet-151793/)

dbussone 04-25-2015 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 1051002)
That's why I called it a "prevention strategy". Words mean things.
Words do mean things. That why I said this is a snake oil sale.

Villages PL 04-25-2015 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonanza (Post 1050809)
I think you are speaking about yourself.
You often refute and challenge what others say.
People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".

Villages PL 04-25-2015 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueash (Post 1050892)
Extremely misleading thread title.

I have read the link. It is an opinion piece with references from 4 staff physicians at Kaiser. It is referenced with articles and TV shows that support their opinion.

The National Institutes of Health is not Kaiser but is a governmental organization (NIH.gov) and is a far more prestigious organization for making recommendations, although Kaiser does excellent work especially in harvesting data from their patient population. This opinion piece was published in their in-house magazine.

This is absolutely NOT an opinion from the National Institutes of Health.
The lead author is a nephrologist who trained at a Caribbean medical school. His biography does not list any training in nutrition.
https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org...reWc_5HNNNQ!!/

While these doctors may be right, they are not the NIH and do not represent the NIH nor even the opinion of Kaiser.
Glad to hear that it was only an opinion piece written by 4 physicians.

Polar Bear 04-25-2015 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 1051009)
People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".
What hooey.

(Pardon the technical jargon.)

rubicon 04-25-2015 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 1051009)
People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".
Huh?

dbussone 04-25-2015 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1051064)
Huh?

Rubicon - you and Polar just have to stop using such technical terms. I'm having difficulty following them. Use your terms in moderation.

blueash 04-25-2015 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 1051012)
Glad to hear that it was only an opinion piece written by 4 physicians.
I know some are challenged in their ability to evaluate medical literature, tell the material based on double blind placebo controlled peer reviewed studies vs material based on anecdotal and personal experience. Some don't understand that an opinion piece by 4 doctors does not equate to a well documented meta-analysis nor to a comprehensive literature review. But if you choose to accept an article like the one cited for this thread as being authoritative and important, perhaps that is a choice you can make with comfort. Others, some of whom have privately messaged me, appreciated my pointing out that this dietary recommendation is not made by the NIH and giving information on the author of the piece. I never said the advise was bad, I said it was not authoritative as it would have been if it were indeed made by the NIH. I think, my opinion, that is an important distinction worth pointing out. Sorry if you disagree.

Fraugoofy 04-25-2015 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 1051009)
People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".
I speak fluent English and fluent German and I think that "Eat in moderation" means pretty much the same thing for most people with common sense. Eat a little of this and a little of that and mix it up every now and again. Don't go overboard. Yep, I think we get it. Most of us anyway!

graciegirl 04-26-2015 05:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraugoofy (Post 1051230)
I speak fluent English and fluent German and I think that "Eat in moderation" means pretty much the same thing for most people with common sense. Eat a little of this and a little of that and mix it up every now and again. Don't go overboard. Yep, I think we get it. Most of us anyway!
I agree Frau..

Don't go overboard. Don't be ALL or nothing. See the big picture. Not falling outside of what is generally accepted by society in general..

Once in awhile and now and then having something completely off the diet won't kill you and SHOULDN'T make you feel guilty.

Being jittery and worried about doing something perfectly all of the time isn't good for anyone and isn't healthy and is stressful. Feeling the need to talk about your diet isn't what most people do...for years...it isn't a moderate way to live. It is extremely out of the ordinary.

Taking pills to restore your health, no matter what your diet and lifestyle is not being a failure either. Science is a wonderful thing and many good men and women labored hard with the best intentions to develop a way to make us healthier. That doesn't mean that big business hasn't made a lot of money on medications, but to turn away from pills of any kind is very extreme. It isn't moderate. It could be very dangerous too.

jimbo2012 04-26-2015 05:23 AM
moderation...slightly pregnant :shrug:

Barefoot 04-26-2015 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo2012 (Post 1051268)
moderation...slightly pregnant :shrug:
I've never heard any woman describe herself as moderately pregnant. :confused:

Bonanza 04-27-2015 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 1051009)
People only know what moderation means for themselves. No one can possibly know what moderation means for someone else. It's something different for each person. Therefore, it's pointless to offer the nutrition advice to "eat everything in moderation".
No, it is not pointless to use the word "moderation" regarding nutritional advice.

Why do you have such a big problem with that word?
According to the posts on this thread as well as others, you seem to be the only one who has a problem with the use of "moderation."
Doesn't that tell you something???

jimbo2012 04-27-2015 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 1051266)
Taking pills to restore your health, no matter what your diet and lifestyle is not being a failure either.

there are wonderful meds for instance for asthma and there are many others that can not be controlled with any diet

But diet related meds let's for example let's just look at two meds that are widely used cholesterol-lowering drugs (the #2 number of prescriptions written in the US. )
And blood pressure like Diovan etc

Modifying your diet and lifestyle to restore your health without the side effects of meds. May be a better option

dbussone 04-27-2015 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo2012 (Post 1051713)
there are wonderful meds for instance for asthma and there are many others that can not be controlled with any diet

But diet related meds let's for example let's just look at two meds that are widely used cholesterol-lowering drugs (the #2 number of prescriptions written in the US. )
And blood pressure like Diovan etc

Modifying your diet and lifestyle to restore your health without the side effects of meds. May be a better option
You make a very important point. Even if a drug can't be eliminated entirely, the dietary change made by modifying (and moderating) may be sufficient to allow the dosage of a drug to be reduced.

Villager Joyce 04-27-2015 07:25 AM
And now we can eat eggs again. If you are old enough you can remember when milk was bad for you, then it wasn't just not bad, it was good for you. Now we can have red wine and dark chocolate and drink coffee. The moral to this story: eat eggs and dark chocolate and drink milk, wine and coffee. Before they change their minds again.

Villages PL 04-27-2015 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polar Bear (Post 1051015)
What hooey.

(Pardon the technical jargon.)
Thanks for the intelligent comment. I can tell you really put a lot of thought into it. Of course you didn't explain how anyone would know what moderation is for someone else.

Villages PL 04-27-2015 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbussone (Post 1050398)
Enough to help them manage their survival.
But we still don't know how many fish Polar Bears need for survival.

Polar Bear 04-27-2015 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 1052029)
...I can tell you really put a lot of thought into it. Of course you didn't explain how anyone would know what moderation is for someone else.
I put exactly the amount of thought into it that was warranted. And very few others in the world need the word 'moderation' explained to them.

Villages PL 04-27-2015 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1050962)
Hi Barefoot: I just happened on this thread and reached the same conclusion but your response is better than mine would have been.

Thank you
As far as I can tell, "everything in moderation" is a phrase intended to give support to the processed food industry and to those who are addicted to processed foods. Under the "moderation" banner the following processed foods can be eaten, but the word moderation doesn't explain how much or how often. I'll give a partial list:

Pizza: (would moderation be one per week, one per month, or once a year?) (One slice, one medium pie or one large pie?)

Soda: (would moderation be once or twice a day, once or twice a week, once or twice a month, or a few times a year?)

Pastry: (would moderation be once a day, once a week, once a month or a few times a year?

Salty snacks like potato chips: How often can you have them in moderation?

Ice Cream: How much? How often?

Bread: How much? How often?

Candy: How much? How often?

Villages PL 04-27-2015 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon (Post 1050972)

My only objection is having members of the Church of Green (energy) or Church of Kale (plant) evangelizing. My friend does that too and it drives his family and us all up a wall.
What do they do in the church of moderation? Don't they evangelize too? Oh, you just don't recognize it as such?

If reporting or having a discussion about health is considered evangelizing, the media do this all the time. When do we consumers get an opportunity to talk back to all that the media throws our way in the form of advertisements and news articles? We're not living in Russia, are we?

Villages PL 04-27-2015 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villager Joyce (Post 1051746)
And now we can eat eggs again. If you are old enough you can remember when milk was bad for you, then it wasn't just not bad, it was good for you. Now we can have red wine and dark chocolate and drink coffee. The moral to this story: eat eggs and dark chocolate and drink milk, wine and coffee. Before they change their minds again.
It may not be the same "they" changing their minds. Various groups do different studies and it all depends on what a particular group is looking for at the time. For example, I believe it's a relatively recent discovery that animal protein promotes cancer. Yes, a person can eat animal protein for several decades without getting cancer, just as a person can smoke cigarettes for several decades without getting lung disease. The true issue is one of risk. How can we lower our risk for getting degenerative diseases?

jimbo2012 04-27-2015 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFrance (Post 1052144)
we have expressed more than enough our desire not to have someone's obsession constantly shoved in front of us.
civility aside, wait 1 minute, nothing was shoved in your face by VPL, you read threads by choice.

You can also set anyone to ignore

Polar Bear 04-27-2015 06:45 PM
National Institutes of Health Physicians Pushing a Plant-Based Diet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo2012 (Post 1052148)
civility aside, wait 1 minute, nothing was shoved in your face by VPL, you read threads by choice...
With or without choice, your assessment is definitely a matter of opinion.

Just because one person does shove it in your face, doesn't mean you may not have an interest in the thread's topic...more than one person posts in these threads.

Dr Winston O Boogie jr 04-27-2015 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 1050624)
The author of The China Study, who studied nutrition nearly all of his life, referred to veganism as "a plant based diet". I never heard the phrase "plant only" diet before this thread.



I doubt that very many people will take the time to calculate whether or not they are getting 50% of their calories from plants. Non-starchy plants are very low in calories. MyPlate, which is used as an acceptable example, has 3/4 of the plate devoted to vegetables and grains(1/2 vegetables plus 1/4 grains). 1/4 of the plate is reserved for "lean protein" but the calories are allowed to go as high as 49%? That doesn't seem to make sense. Where did you get the information "50% of calories from vegetables"?


What's wrong with calling it what it is, a "omnivore diet"?


Notice that nothing was said about preventing cancer and cancer is the second leading cause of death. The vegan diet, as presented by Dr. Colin Campbell, includes a cancer prevention strategy as well as a prevention strategy for all the other degenerative diseases.
Unfortunately, in today's world people are changing the meaning of words in order to suit their purposes. The word based in this context does not mean that a diet is entirely of plants. Jazz based music may contain elements of classical.

Petroleum based products have other substances mixed in.

It doesn't matter what the author of The China Study says. The words are plain English. A plant based diet means that most of the food in the diet comes from plants. It doesn't mean a vegan diet which is a plant only diet.

Fraugoofy 04-27-2015 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polar Bear (Post 1052160)
I'm in too!! And I think we should eat chocolate and drink wine to celebrate. :)
I am in for eating chocolate and drinking wine and no talking about damn man eating plants!!

CFrance 04-27-2015 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polar Bear (Post 1052159)
With or without choice, your assessment is definitely a matter of opinion.

Just because one person does shove it in your face, doesn't mean you may not have an interest in the thread's topic...more than one person posts in these threads.
Thank you, PB.


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