[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by GoodLife

Everyone should read this paper by two Doctors who are respiratory protection specialists. They looked at all the scientific papers on various types of facemasks and have some solid conclusions. They don't look at youtube videos of someone sneezing thru a tee shirt into a petri dish.

COMMENTARY: Masks-for-all for COVID-19 not based on sound data | CIDRAP

I saw that YouTube video of the petri dish. Quite impressive actually and why not believe the results? Do you think YouTube video posters are fudging results? I guess that is a possibility.

I have been posting a YouTube video on several thread of a guy who spritzes water onto a mirror using a spritzer bottle. Water droplets go all over the mirror. Then, the guy spritzes water from the same spritzer bottle through a single layer of T-shirt material. Not one drop of water settled on the mirror. Not very scientific but sure as hell made an impression on me how one layer of T-shirt material blocked all those droplets from landing on the mirror.

I have been making home made masks out of Bounty paper towel (2 layers), a 2" strip of printer paper to make the mask 3D, one tissue folded in half, rubber bands and staples. Once all my materials are in place, it takes me about one minute to assemble the finished mask. I was curious to see if one layer of a Bounty paper towel blocked droplets on my mirror just the the one layer of T-shirt material blocked droplets in the video I explained above.

I conducted my very scientific (for me) experiment and low and behold.....not one droplet of water landed on my mirror as I spritzed water from a water spritzer on my mirror through one layer of Bounty paper towel.

Given that I use two layers of paper towel, the printer paper which sits in front of the mouth and one folded tissue, I know none of my droplets are escaping from my mouth or nose when I breathe, speak, sing, cough or sneeze. The mask fits very snuggly to my face so this is also a plus to protect others from my droplets. I don't know if I am an asymptomatic carrier of the virus which is why I wear a mask when I can not guarantee to social distance.

I hope people realize that home made mask wearing is to protect others around you and not the wearer of the mask. Wearing masks is to slow the spread of this virus.

As for this article, which I read read through, BTW, I took away one very important aspect of these doctors' conclusions: wearing home made cloth masks can block transmission of virus. These masks do not protect the wearer of the masks.

Gee, that is what I have thought all along.

[GoodLife]

Originally Posted by coffeebean

I saw that YouTube video of the petri dish. Quite impressive actually and why not believe the results? Do you think YouTube video posters are fudging results? I guess that is a possibility.

I have been posting a YouTube video on several thread of a guy who spritzes water onto a mirror using a spritzer bottle. Water droplets go all over the mirror. Then, the guy spritzes water from the same spritzer bottle through a single layer of T-shirt material. Not one drop of water settled on the mirror. Not very scientific but sure as hell made an impression on me how one layer of T-shirt material blocked all those droplets from landing on the mirror.

I have been making home made masks out of Bounty paper towel (2 layers), a 2" strip of printer paper to make the mask 3D, one tissue folded in half, rubber bands and staples. Once all my materials are in place, it takes me about one minute to assemble the finished mask. I was curious to see if one layer of a Bounty paper towel blocked droplets on my mirror just the the one layer of T-shirt material blocked droplets in the video I explained above.

I conducted my very scientific (for me) experiment and low and behold.....not one droplet of water landed on my mirror as I spritzed water from a water spritzer on my mirror through one layer of Bounty paper towel.

Given that I use two layers of paper towel, the printer paper which sits in front of the mouth and one folded tissue, I know none of my droplets are escaping from my mouth or nose when I breathe, speak, sing, cough or sneeze. The mask fits very snuggly to my face so this is also a plus to protect others from my droplets. I don't know if I am an asymptomatic carrier of the virus which is why I wear a mask when I can not guarantee to social distance.

I hope people realize that home made mask wearing is to protect others around you and not the wearer of the mask. Wearing masks is to slow the spread of this virus.

As for this article, which I read read through, BTW, I took away one very important aspect of these doctors' conclusions: wearing home made cloth masks can block transmission of virus. These masks do not protect the wearer of the masks.

Gee, that is what I have thought all along.

The youtube videos sneezing through a tee shirt are not science which requires precise measurements. As far as their conclusions about masks, here it is straight from the paper.

"Cloth masks are ineffective as source control and PPE, surgical masks have some role to play in preventing emissions from infected patients, and respirators are the best choice for protecting healthcare and other frontline workers, but not recommended for source control."

I have seen other studies testing cloth masks as source control (protecting others) and depending on material used, to be from 10% to 50% effective in reducing emissions. That's better than nothing. Surgical masks are better in this function. Only N95 respirators can truly protect wearer from virus.

This is why I have stayed out of buildings, and maintained 20 foot distance while outdoors. I have nothing against those who use cloth masks when out and about. They do help a little bit.

[roscoguy]

Originally Posted by CarolSells

How about the compromise could be that people who are leery of mingling with non-maskers at rec centers , etc. could wear their masks AND face shields. They seem to be able to stop “stuff” going both in and out. Plus, the mask could be also worn to guard against anti-gravity droplets which might drift upwards under the face shield.

Your thoughts?

That's a compromise? Sounds way more like a sarcastic troll to me. How about having the people that are sure that masks make no difference taking over caring for the ICU patients with COVID, no masks allowed. Is that a "compromise" too?

[roscoguy]

Originally Posted by Leadbone1

Can’t believe we’re still talking about this. Wearing a mask cannot be mandated. It is not a law. A world renowned epidemiologist indicated that because of the size of the virus it can go right through any mask. Even an N 95 mask. It’s a microbe! The only value of a mask is psychological. You don’t wear a mask during flu season do you? Since we now know this virus has virtually the same mortality rate as the flu why are we still talking about this? I cannot believe the paranoia about this virus has lasted this long. The media obviously did a great job of scaring people to death to the point where they can’t even think for themselves anymore.

I can't believe we're still arguing this either. No mask can eliminate the possibility of spread of this, or any other, virus. A good mask (surgical or N95) can reduce the amount of expelled respiratory droplets which can carry the virus, if properly worn. It's also been said that the virus doesn't magically travel through the air on it's own; the most common method of airborne transmission is thought to be via these respiratory droplets. More than a merely psychological value, IMO. Unfortunately, homemade masks aren't likely to stop much at all except for the largest droplets, but may still reduce the velocity of expelled droplets, depending on the way they were made and worn. In either case, the wearer of the mask is potentially protecting others rather than ensuring their own safety. Since there is no question that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus, in effect, wearing a mask in public unselfishly says 'I will try to protect others'. Refusing to wear one tends to imply the opposite.

Just for the record, COVID-19 is NOT the flu, no matter how many times it is used as a comparison... Given that no 2 sources seem to agree on the COVID-19 mortality rates, it is very nearly impossible to say that it is "virtually the same" as the flu.

[Timothyimitchell]

Have you not heard. The virus is gone. The riots are here. Whats next?

[Altavia]

Originally Posted by CarolSells

So, after a gazillion posts pro and con to wearing a mask, I don’t believe that we have swayed anyone to our side, pro or con.

How about the compromise could be that people who are leery of mingling with non-maskers at rec centers , etc. could wear their masks AND face shields. They seem to be able to stop “stuff” going both in and out. Plus, the mask could be also worn to guard against anti-gravity droplets which might drift upwards under the face shield.

Your thoughts?

Fair question, there are no single or perfect solutions so at the end of the day, it's about reducing risks. Personally, I'm not an infectious disease expert so I follow the most recent CDC guidance the best I can as we learn more and the guidance evolves.

Relative to the Rec Centers and other interior spaces, data and intuition indicates one of the most effective risk reduction methods is to improve the ventilation in the building. Make interior air as close to outside air as reasonably possible. This helps reduce risk for all occupants.

So it would be interesting to learn what is being done to the Rec Centers to achieve compliance as recommended by the CDC for the air those spaces. A few points extracted for those who don't click on links.

COVID-19 Employer Information for Office Buildings | CDC

Take steps to improve ventilation in the building:

Increase the percentage of outdoor air.

Increase total airflow supply to occupied spaces, if possible.

Consider using natural ventilation (i.e., opening windows if possible and safe to do so) to increase outdoor air dilution of indoor air when environmental conditions and building requirements allow.

Improve central air filtration: Increase air filtration to as high as possible (MERV 13 or 14) without significantly diminishing design airflow.

Consider running the building ventilation system even during unoccupied times to maximize dilution ventilation.

Generate clean-to-less-clean air movement re-evaluating the positioning of supply and exhaust air diffusers and/or dampers and adjusting zone supply and exhaust flow rates to establish measurable pressure differentials.

Have staff work in areas served by “clean” ventilation zones that do not include higher-risk areas such as visitor reception or exercise facilities (if open).

Consider using portable high-efficiency particulate air (HEPA) fan/filtration systems to help enhance air cleaning (especially in higher risk areas).

Ensure exhaust fans in restroom facilities are functional and operating at full capacity when the building is occupied.

Consider using ultraviolet germicidal irradiation (UVGI) as a supplement to help inactivate the virus.

[roscoguy]

Originally Posted by CarolSells

I have been almost totally isolated since March 1, 2020. If I, being a high risk old person, had come in contact with the “deadly virus” I would probably have succumbed by now.

Total nonsense. "Almost" means you have incurred at least some risk and possible contact with others who just may be carriers. Maybe 2 weeks after the last time your isolation wasn't 'almost total', this would make sense.

Originally Posted by CarolSells

To be asymptomatic, I would have had to be in close personal, prolonged contact with someone who was sick and shedding microbes. No one I know here in The Villages either has this virus, had it, or has died from it. Get a grip.

Nope, neither close nor prolonged contact are really necessary. Indoors, respiratory droplets may stay in the air much farther than the 6 feet recommended for social distancing. Then there's also the fact that virus particles can live for hours on surfaces you may come into contact with on the rare instances you are out & about. You also seem to discount the possiblity that others here in The Villages can't have recently been exposed & become carriers themselves. Maybe you should follow your own advice to "Get a grip"?

[Slapnut]

What's the difference being 6 feet apart whether you are going in the same direction or in the opposite direction. None ( makes no damn sense for the arrows)

[Huskies]

I have many medical issues including oxygen. If I were not wearing a masks and someone who wasn’t wearing one and they sneezed or coughed there is a good chance that I could die if their spray hit me, unfortunately you don’t even know if you you have the virus, at the beginning most people do not know that have it at the beginning. I’d like to have everyone thinking of each other rather than just thinking of themselves.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by Huskies

I have many medical issues including oxygen. If I were not wearing a masks and someone who wasn’t wearing one and they sneezed or coughed there is a good chance that I could die if their spray hit me.

It's unfortunately true.
You can spread the virus without knowing you have COVID-19.

[NorskiCroat]

The Truth About Masks

The truth about masks

[CarolSells]

:::

[jet10s]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Why? Maybe some of us are not scared of the very slight/minute possibility of being infected and believe that anyone else that is scared of the idea should either protect themselves or go hide in their own homes. Personally, I believe that if you wish to wear a mask, go for it. If not, go for it. Why insist that everyone else conform to your standard, base on your fear? I respect your view and do not insist that you change it. It is a shame that you do not give others that same consideration that you demand.

New England Journal of Medicine - May 21, 2020 Perspective on Universal Masking
We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic. DOI: 10.1056/NEJM p2006372

[GoPacers]

Originally Posted by jet10s

New England Journal of Medicine - May 21, 2020 Perspective on Universal Masking
We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic. DOI: 10.1056/NEJM p2006372

So, the article is talking about universal masking in the hospital setting. You've selectively referenced various text from the article to infer a point the authors did not make themselves. Here is the full article with the full title.

Universal Masking in Hospitals in the Covid-19 Era

Here is an interesting article on the spread of the virus: The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them

Wearing a mask outside is probably not going to make any difference in most settings. The probability of getting sufficient exposure to contract the virus is minimal depending on the environment, as is the potential to contract the virus from touching surfaces outdoors. That said, practicing social distancing and good hygiene is still recommended and provides an additional layer of safety that will potentially reduce the transmission rate (which is already likely low).

However, in buildings/rooms/areas where symptomatic and asymptomatic carriers may be confined for extended periods (restaurants, bars, stores, etc.) the probability is much different. Wearing a mask won't guarantee that you won't get the virus. It will have some impact on reducing the transmission rate (R0) which is what has to happen for this to no longer be an issue. You obviously cannot wear a mask in a restaurant or bar but in convenience stores, grocery stores, etc. where there are confined spaces the risk rises and wearing a mask in those settings may reduce (not eliminate) the transmission rate.