Gun Accident
 

I saw in the Daily Sun a few days ago that a Villager was cleaning his pistol and shot himself in the stomach. How can a person who has handled guns enough to own one be so careless not to check and double check that the pistol was unloaded?

Was it a case of being careless or possibly just too old to have a gun?

I know there are no maximum ages for driving or for gun ownership but at some time, most people do voluntarily (or at the insistence of family) give up keys to the car. What about for guns?

I have always advocated a yearly vision and driving skill test for drivers over 80. What about a vision and shooting skill test for gun owners over 80?

Buggy's suggestion would require registration/licensing of the guns first, and that's unlikely to happen.

I don't think many people in TV shoot themselves accidentally, while cleaning their gun. If they do, that's their problem.

If they are too feeble to drive, they're also probably too feeble to live in their own home and are likely to be in an assisted living facility where relatives and workers see to it that they don't have guns.

Oh, boy, I'm not sure I agree with you, lovey, especially the last part. I know many people who are still living alone in houses who should not be driving. Maybe it's a Michigan thing, but there are quite a few in my old neighborhood there.

As far as guns, I thought we already had registration and licensing of guns, so I'm thinking Buggy has a good idea. That person could well have had the gun turned the other way when it went off and shot a family member.

This is true. But it's also up to the family members to monitor their elderly parents/siblings/grandparents who have guns.

Drivers too feeble to drive safely should be reported to the state and if it's a relative, the person's doctor and/or eye doctor should be told.

I agree with you CFrance. My mother voluntarily gave up her car and license about 8 years ago. She lives on her own and manages quite well although she does miss the "freedom" to go to the store when she wishes.

When a gun is registered, is the owner also required to demonstrate some level of qualification/training? I realize the laws may vary, but if there is no "qualification" tied to registration, then there is one less "check" for a potential gun owner. Of course, being "qualified" doesn't ensure that safe practices will always be followed (the "it can't happen to me" scenario).

If a driver would be "reported to the state" for being too old to drive safely, there is nothing the "state" can do as long as the person has a valid license. If a relative or friend cannot get them to voluntarily give up their license to drive, there is nothing that can be done.

Now, if there was a mandatory vision/driving skills test after 80, a license could be revoked and I feel most would abide with that revocation.

The same could be said for guns. If there was a mandatory vision/shooting skills test after 80, the gun could be kept or lost. Is this "gun control"? Yes and therefore will never happen. :shrug:

Chuck and the Darwin Awards.
 

I had a friend in Reno named Chuck who used to do very stupid things like carp fishing with a machete. He cut his leg open. He also found a very old pistol buried in the desert, dusted it off, took it home, and proceeded to see if it still fired. He blew a good part of his hand off. Some people do stupid things whether they are 18 or 88. This guy Chuck did seem that the way he was going he would be a Darwin Award winner. http://www.darwinawards.com/ I would always get very far behind Chuck's little brother when he insisted on going rattlesnake hunting with shotguns. His little brother seemed to be following in his older brother's accident prone footsteps.

( carp fishing with a machete )

I'll bet you anything I have a bloodline to this guy.

Six degrees of separation!

In Florida, once a person turns 80 years old that person is required to have an eye exam whenever renewing a driver's license, and those licenses are only good for five years. At least an 80 year old is having his eyesight tested every five years.


Official Website Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles

Is there another way to carp fish?

Hey, I was killing chubs with a coat hanger when I was 6. Family vacation, Keaton Beach, FL.

about the topic, accidents happen even to normally careful people. Let him who hasn't ever had one throw...in the towel. You can be too careful.

There you go again...
 

I tend to enjoy buggyone's recurring posts related to his preoccupation with limiting other's access to guns.

Mainly, the posts tend to bring out points of view that show that others are unfamiliar with existing firearms laws. For example, CFrance and Trayderjoe appear to believe that there is a system of "firearms registration and licensing of guns."

A central registry of firearms ownership is prohibited by the federal Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986. The pertinent paragraph is:

"No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary’s [1] authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation."

Further, after a person who is purchasing a firearm undergoes a national background check, the records of that check are to be destroyed withing 24 hours.

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1. This does not mean that many firearms that are recovered at crime scenes or otherwise cannot be traced in some manner. The manufacturer is required to keep a record of the firearms dealer who purchased the gun and the dealer is required to keep a record of the individual to whom the gun was sold. Any further disposition of the gun that goes through a licensed firearms dealer is also recorded.

But, of course, the chain is broken if the firearm is stolen or disposed of in a private transaction.

2. The State of Connecticut recently passed an "assault weapon" registration law which appears to be contrary to the Firearms Owners' Protection Act, which may explain why thousands of citizens of Connecticut have defied the law. It will be interesting to see how this is handled in the courts.

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I'll speak to the actual content of buggyone's original post in a later message.

I strongly suspect that the person did not shoot themselves while cleaning their gun, but was/is the best tale that shields them from embarassment.....as if shooting one's self while cleaning isn't embarassing enough.

It is pretty difficult to shoot one's self while cleaning a gun....the story stinx!!!

And Carl I am sure you know that explaining anything regarding guns to anybody against guns is a waste of keystrokes.

I agree. Maybe he changed his mind and missed and needed a good excuse.

Z

Regarding the registration of guns - this item may be pertinent.
Judge upholds DC gun registration requirements - Washington Times

It is regarding registration of guns in Washington DC and was very recent.

If it can be done in Washington DC, it can be done elsewhere in the USA. :shrug:

The gun ownership I was talking about was for seniors over 80 years old and that an annual vision and skills test be given. If they pass it - fine. Same for driving. You cannot argue against that reasonably. I also said I do not expect it to happen so sarcasm is not necessary.

How can one be so careless as to drive after having several drinks? How can one be so careless as to text while driving?

Everyone of us has been careless at sometime and escaped! Accidents happen! Although, as stated, this may not truly be the case.

I have been involved in the shooting sports for over 35 years - never had an accident and do not personally know anyone who has.

As with all things - it may have been an accident but sometimes you just can NOT fix stupid!

Accident?
 

I was going to address that next. These remarks are not about the shooting that buggyone referred to.

I have been acquainted with several law enforcement officers who have committed suicide, at least two of whom were shot with the pretext that they were cleaning their handguns at the time they were "accidentally" shot.

One case involved a revolver, the other a semi-automatic. In both cases gun cleaning materials had been laid out on the table and the hand grips removed from the guns. A normal cleaning does not involve removal of the hand grips. If a detailed cleaning is to be done, the normal barrel cleaning is done before the detailed cleaning.
Barrel cleaning requires opening the cylinder on a revolver or the opening of the slide on a semi-automatic. A loaded gun is apparent at this point.

A common motive for a suicidal person for setting up a pretext of accidentally shooting himself is that his life insurance may be invalid in case of suicide.

Another is the intent of the suicidal person to shield his family from the embarrassment of the act of suicide.

Homicide investigators are often complicit in this deception if there is no suicide note left behind. They may "know" in their heart that it is a suicide but they want to protect the reputation of the dead person and be sure that the survivors get any possible survivor benefits.

And, finally --- It is incredibly presumptions of buggyone to assume that the accidental shooting had anything to do with the AGE of the individual involved. Too OLD to own a gun is not in the Second Amendment to the Constitution. Some people persist in ignoring that pesky Second Amendment.


.

Second Amendment
 

The ruling you reference is at the lowest court level in DC. As the article says, it will be appealed. The lower court rulings in DC regarding firearms have a history of being overturned at higher levels.

A few years ago the Supreme Court overturned a DC law that was an outright ban on owning handguns.

Well-meaning, but misguided, legislatures continue to pass unconstitutional firearms laws. It often takes years for them to work their way through the courts and get overturned.

The Second Amendment continues to be the law of the land.

.

About "the state can't do anything" about an unfit driver reported to the DMV:

WRONG!

See link here, "How to report an unfit driver" in FL:

Florida GrandDriver - Official Website

Thank you for the information. Very interesting.

Until it does get overturned, it is still the law.

easy for people to say when they don't fit the criteria...just because one turns 80 doesn't put him or her in a situation that requires a complete examination for everything. I know many who are 80 plus and do not require any testing as suggested here!!!





eau

So if we took firearms away from "unfit" owners, how would we implement that and how would it be enforced? Who would go into a home and take them away? I understand the concern but be careful what you wish for.

As I said, even though it MIGHT be a good idea, it will never happen - so no use discussing a non-issue.

It is kind of like the 80 year old who cannot pass the vision test for a driver license. The license gets revoked but the person's car does not get taken away. Very likely they will continue to drive without a license or insurance.

If there is no register anywhere of gun ownership, why is it that guns can be traced to their last legal owner? That's what I was talking about, Carl.

Why does every post that references the word "gun" seem to degenerate into a debate about about registration? I underwent a background check for each firearm I have purchased. I believe that is a sufficient safeguard and precursor for gun ownership. There is no need for anyone, including the government, to know what is secured behind the door of my safe.

Tracking found firearms.
 

Guns cannot always be traced to "their last legal owner."

I explained the tracking method earlier: The manufacturer is required to keep a record of the firearms dealer who purchased the gun and the dealer is required to keep a record of the individual to whom the gun was sold. Any further disposition of the gun that goes through a licensed firearms dealer is also recorded.

But, of course, the chain is broken if the firearm is stolen or disposed of in a private transaction.

It is entirely lawful for you to sell me a firearm if we are both residents of the same state. Since a licensed firearms dealer is not involved, you are not required to maintain a record of who you sell a firearm to in a legal private transaction.

To further complicate tracking, people move, sometimes leaving no forwarding address, and cannot be found. In the mean time, if several years have elapsed since the original retail sale, the gun may have changed hands several times in lawful transactions that the subsequent owners kept no records of.

There is no legal, constitutional, central registry of all firearms ownership.

Such a registry would be considered by many to be a method of facilitating firearms seizure at some time in the future.

.

I found out something interesting regarding buying handguns in Florida. Anyone who has a DD214 (Armed Forces Discharge) can get a Concealed Carry Permit just by paying a fingerprint fee and processing fee - about $115 total. No test, no skill in firing. Figure that most of the vets in The Villages had active service over 40 years ago.

Once that permit is issued, you can go out and buy and take home a pistol that same day. No waiting period.

Relax.
 

The CCW license is not issued until after the fingerprints are submitted and a background check is completed. That is the purpose of obtaining the fingerprints. The DD-214 simply demonstrates that the applicant has received training in the safe handling of firearms.

There are a variety of other documents that are acceptable for demonstrating firearms safety training, including a hunter safety course. When younger I was a certified Florida Hunter Safety instructor. The course, like the DD-214, is about training in safe handling of firearms, not marksmanship.

Firearms ownership and use is the most highly regulated of all of the Second Amendment rights.

Relax.

.

When people put forth issues that indicate an extreme desire to control how others behave, it's sometimes the case that a belligerent nature is being revealed.

Personally, I wish persons with such a combative character were aware that they cannot trust themselves with a firearm, but it's quite unlikely that such an individual would have the insight to perceive any flaw in their own fabric.

Another Nominee for the Darwin Awards
 

How about "The 1st Annual Turkey Shoot and Gun Show"
 

Welcome Octogenanrians!

I hadn't seen this before. thanks Carl from Tampa for the info.

I am not really sure of what is meant here by being suggesting a belligerent nature and combative character and flaws in fabric. Most of my fabric is denim.

I hope you made something good with the key lime juice.

For some, apparently, the head and its contents are not vital organs!:22yikes:

There is no gun registration in Florida and there shouldn't be. Registration leads to confiscation. Licenses are renewed every 7 years I believe. There is no license required to own a gun in ones home only to carry a concealed weapon. One person shoots himself out of stupidity and now we are discussing testing people who own a gun. I always reverse it when something like this happens. One person shot himself but 102,999 did not. Sort of like when one person doesn't like the Village People song YMCA so the school cancels the show because of the ONE person. Total Stupidity….

:BigApplause::BigApplause::BigApplause::BigApplaus e:

People some times do the dumbest things. It just happens and will continue to happen. I've watched people pump gasoline with a lit cigarette in their mouth. Goes back to the saying: "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink". No matter how many times you try and tell someone to be careful, someone always screws up at some point. Age does matter some but it happens to all ages.

It seems as some who have such strong Second Amendment viewpoints forget about First Amendment guarantees that includes Freedom of Speech.

chilout