74 school shootings since 12-14-12. Newtown
 

If It's A School Week In America, Odds Are There Will Be A School Shooting

Anyone have any practical suggestions about how to stop these shootings? More education about how to stop marginalizing kids done by other kids? Bullying has always been around but why has it gone to such extremes? Copycat shooters who feel that's the only way to get what they want?

And its going to be solved on TOTV? Really?

It will not be solved on TOTV but certainly it is a good topic for discussion as an open forum is supposed to do.

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.

Are the shootings the result of bad parenting, coddled children, violent video games, gratuitous violence in movies, removal of God from schools, or just plain crazy people?

Before jumping to a quick answer remember that one answer may not fit all circumstances.

I think that teaching our kids that we are just grown up germs and that morality is a mere social contract (to protect the weak) might have a big hand in it. Add in a coddling parent who applauds the slightest effort and shelters little egos like a hen on the roost and I'd say you've got a pretty good handle on the problem.

You are not saying that a parent should scoff at a child's mediocre achievement and say that you expected him to do better when the child performed at their peak level, are you? Remember, there has to be some kid playing in right field - not everyone is capable of playing first base. Applaud that catch in right field even though it was a complete accident!

I do not believe in the t-ball games where there is no winner. Everyone has to learn that life has winning moments and losing moments. Rewards are not given for participation.

However, it is important to put your arm around your child and say, "I am proud of you."

Yep, you're really good at stating the things I'm not saying. You might have guessed from my chosen occupation that I do not hate children. I do hate it when parents pretend the precocious is precious, or that disrespectfulness is passed off as playfulness. Your child is not the center of the universe, not even YOUR universe (or certainly should not be), and if you teach him that he is you have completely failed to prepare him for the real world (the ultimate goal of parenting). The father who fails to discipline his child (yes, including corporeal) hates his child, according to the scriptures of all three major world religions.

Are the shootings the result of bad parenting, coddled children, violent video games, gratuitous violence in movies, removal of God from schools, or just plain crazy people?

Yep, all of the above

Many of the statistics with regards to school shootings, especially those reported by former NYC mayor, Michael Bloomberg's anti gun groups, are exagerated, built up or completely false.

Here's one article. There are hundreds more showing how these people will say whatever they think will get them the results they want.

Bloomberg

Everytime this kind of thing happens, it becomes a discussion of guns.

We ignore the beating deaths, the stabbing deaths, etc and etc and on and on.

My opinion is very strong that as the family unit breaks down in this country and is actually becoming the butt of jokes it will get worse. We have watered down marriage, parenting so much it means very little.

That, to me is the reason. I do agree that children are coddled terribly today....if you punish, our society says you are bad.....I really get discouraged at how our society talks about and manifests its disgust toward marriage and family.

My vote on many things is moral decay in this country. We keep looking for issues to blame, and it is right in front of us, but it would be difficult to defend marriage or family thus we need issues to blame !

There are various factors that feed into each shooter's dark scheme of murder and suicidal quest for fame, but one of the biggest, I think, is kids left unattended and unsupervised, pretty much raising themselves. The parent(s) are indeed around, but their focus is on other things...pursuits of their own.

Then when they start to go off track in school and start getting marginalized by other kids for acting weird, they are often just a number in a sea of 2,000 other students.

Teachers individually try to help them, but their year or semester with them ends. Then the parents often will not accept that their child is doing anything wrong, much less that he's showing signs of deviant behavior/thinking....and the child digs himself deeper into a hole of isolation and aberrant thinking fed by drugs, solitude, internet research, violent/bloody video games, and wayward friends into some really sick topics.

I think many of the school shooters feel unloved and home is the first place where they felt that. One thing different about parochial schools, which seem to have few if any shootings, is that the students are taught and reminded at every turn that when nobody else loves you, God always does, and He can be accessed 24/7/365 thru prayer.

I'm not advocating prayer in public schools at all, nor that parochial schools are the answer. Public schools are foundational to our nation. But kids being taught who God is, and how to access Him in our deepest, darkest moments could well be a big defining factor in the path the shooters took.

Believe in something worthwhile is certainly very important.
 

Religion, country, causes, art, sports, etc. are worthwhile endeavors that can turn teens away from loneliness, despair, depression, and/or other bad influences. Of course, they have to be tempered too so as not to take over one's life.

I also hardly believe that if you take away US and other army used weapons from the civilian population--which is an impossible task anyway-- that will stop school shootings or others acts of violence in schools. They will use pistols, shotguns, rifles or whatever else is available like bows, crossbows, knives, bombs, slingshots, javelins, machetes, swords, etc.

[QUOTE=buggyone;890928]It will not be solved on TOTV but certainly it is a good topic for discussion as an open forum is supposed to do.

I wonder how long it will be before some our gun enthusiasts will come on and say that schools should not be gun free zones since that encourages someone to come start shooting since it will be a safe area for them to do their shooting with no danger. Yeah, stop guns by bringing in more guns. That is going to end well.

Well here is what you wanted. If a creep knows that a school has a guard with a gun, he/she may think twice unless their goal is death by cop. You have eliminated 50% of proposed solutions to the problem. Very narrow of you.

[quote=Doctommft;891127]So you're saying that having armed guards in the schools would cut school shootings by 50%? Sounds like that's something that should be in the mix.
In addition, an armed guard may stop a shooter before he kills anyone or may lower the number of people shot.
I'm not saying that this is the sole answer as I agree with a lot of people on this thread. These problems are not caused by the availability of guns, but are the result of many complex sociological problems that we currently have in this country.

Love all the arm chair psychologists. :doh:

What do you propose? Have the police TALK the shooter to death? :1rotfl:

That which does not destroy you, makes you stronger- Nietzsche
:icon_wink:

Yup it is always guns that pulls the trigger on these occasions!
We certainly do not want to encourage discipline....report the wacko acting individuals....encourage more profiling.....metal detectors......clear back packs only......lock the schools down when the first bell rings......
Nope hafta be sure not to hurt someone's feelings or impinge upon the individual's rights....

The permissive nature of our society just will NOT allow what needs to be done.

After all these shootings what, of significance has changed to PREVENT the violence in our schools?

How many billions of dollars have been pledged to make the schools safe? Like the billions being committed to illegal alien dumping of children.....for example.

When a school shooting happens it's lights, camera, action for the usual hollow commentary like there was so much of today. Then back to business as usual.....until the next shooting/stabbing/violence.

Way too much talk and special interest pandering and CYA....words don't make anything happen.
Shame on us!

I do not consider a "gun free zone" broken if the ones who have a gun are a security team. The gun free zone I mean is where the general public is not allowed to enter with a gun.

I am in favor of metal detectors and security teams in schools. Most large cities have them.

Allow me to repeat what this says...

"Yup it is always guns that pulls the trigger on these occasions!
We certainly do not want to encourage discipline....report the wacko acting individuals....encourage more profiling.....metal detectors......clear back packs only......lock the schools down when the first bell rings......
Nope hafta be sure not to hurt someone's feelings or impinge upon the individual's rights...."


Simply create a political issue....it is easier for everyone.

Good post BTK

Sure glad this was not a Ban Guns post!

May be we should bring prayer back to all schools!

It wasn't and didn't evolve into that, did it?

[quote=Dr Winston O Boogie jr;891143]You should re-read my response, then your response regarding 50% (of solutions, not shootings.

I believe there is just not one item to exam that explains this behavior we now see by our young people or some adults also. To blame these occurrences on an object is not looking at the root of the problem. To politicize these occurrences by either side shows one of the problems. Neither side trusts one another any more. Part of the problem is parenting, part is the social environment, part is our current form of education, part is our entertainment industry, part is our social programs, part is our lack of respect of authority and each other, part is our spiritual lives, part is how we communicate, part is our mental health system, Plus, Plus, and Plus. One thing I can say for sure, when a youngster who is not of legal age to buy his or her own firearm, uses it to commit a crime, negligence by someone is involved. Those that choose to own a firearm have a great responsibility to make sure that firearm is secure. The other thing I can say for sure is if the right and left attitudes do not change nothing of any useful nature will come about to help solve the problem. This is a social problem that has been in the works for years as our way of life and technology evolves and it appears we are not handling the changes well. There is also more then one type of problem with difference causes going on in our society. What happened and why it happened here has one cause. What is happening in our inner cities is another totally different problem. I no longer listen to the Orlando News because its the same thing every night. Some one was shot.

Many will call for additional firearm laws but the truth is there are plenty of firearm laws on the books that do not get enforced. More laws will not change anything. Just more laws that get selectively enforced. Lets start to enforce all the ones on the books now and then go from there.

Since this discussion will become more heated down the road to help save lives then we should provide security for all schools. What a shame this needs to be done but had we done that 74 shootings ago how many would have been avoided or limited.

We need to have an honest discussion about firearms. If you look at the statistics we do not have a rifle problem we have a pistol problem. As a firearm owner myself I do not have any problem with stronger laws when it comes to semi-auto pistols. Though multi-state background checks for buying a pistol would be a good start. Strong mandatory sentencing for using a pistol or any weapon in a crime is a another good starter. The fact of the matter if you believe that the 2nd Amendment was written to keep the Government inline your not going to do that with a semi-automatic pistol. A wheel gun for home or personal defense is more then adequate and yes you can keep all the semi-automatic rifles. In either case those that choose to own a firearm have a responsibility to keep it secure so others cannot use it for evil.

I've gone on long enough. I hate these tragedies as not only does it cause such a heart ache with those involved but it also seems to bring out all the nut cases on both sides of the fence.

[quote=Doctommft;891624]So please explain how having armed guards to protect school children would eliminate 50% of the solutions. Do you have a list of proposed solutions so that you can show us which of them will eliminated by wanting armed guards?


I think that I'm broad minded enough to consider that armed guards should be a component of the solution.

With all due respect. Do you really think "Gun free zones" really means anything to someone intent on doing harm?

I have read many of your posts and although you are obviously an anti-gun person I respect your right to your point of view.

Keep in mind that there are so many gun laws now in effect and that will never - NEVER - stop some deranged fool from causing harm.

I will not pretend to have the answer and I usually refrain from getting involved in gun issues because an anti-gun person will never see the other side of the argument and neither will pro gunners.

I am a pro-gunner and enjoy the shooting sports.

You stop bad gunmen with good gunmen.
 

Did anyone read the article in the link of the OP? What inane drivel!

Quote: "Not surprisingly, schools tend to be safer when they are not in session. The longest gap between school shootings appears between mid-June and mid-August of 2013, which falls during summer break, when the majority of students are not enrolled in classes. Other gaps of weeks or longer fall during periods when schools are typically on winter, spring or summer breaks."

This is supposed to be insightful commentary?

There are no shootings when there is no one there? What insight! (Special font for sarcasm needed here.)

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Moving on the question of the OP for practical suggestions for stopping shootings among teenagers. There will always be assaults among teens; some are more deadly than others. In some cases, if guns are available then guns will be used. If they are not available, other weapons will be used.

My high school years were in San Antonio, Texas, where fights between Anglos and Mexicans were not uncommon. In those days the weapon of choice was knives. (For insight see West Side Story and/or Rock Around The Clock.) Yes, I carried a pocket knife. Carrying knives on school grounds was not prohibited. I don't recall anyone getting killed and there were no school shootings.

And where I lived, in the South, guns were very available. Almost family I knew had a rifle behind the kitchen door and a pistol in a dresser drawer. For some reason, even the most violent of the teenagers did not choose to resort to firearms.

Our culture has changed. Resorting to firearms is now the first choice of teenagers. Except for the recent mass killing in Santa Barbara where the teen killed three people with a knife and one with his car, you seldom read of mass killings by knife.

The answer to the OP is that there is presently NO PRACTICAL method of preventing school campus assaults by firearm. So, the question becomes how do you minimize the extent of damage done by the gunman who intrudes onto a school campus.

And the answer, hated and derided by many is THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO STOP A BAD MAN WITH A GUN IS INTERVENTION BY A GOOD MAN WITH A GUN.

And, the sooner the good man with a gun arrives at the scene, the fewer victims will fall to the bad man. Many jurisdictions are not only moving toward having armed security guards or police officers on the school campus, but also discretely arming school executives who have proper training and motivation. I believe this is the correct course of action.

Like everyone who posts, this is just my opinion. But it is an informed opinion of someone who has been:

A city police dispatcher
A county jail guard
A Sheriff's Patrol uniformed deputy sheriff
A Sheriff"s Office detective in Organized Crime
A Sheriff's Office Hostage Negotiator
A U.S. Secret Service Special Agent Criminal Investigator
A U.S. Secret Service Special Agent Supervisor
A U.S. Army Military Policeman
A U.S. Army Criminal Investigator
A survivor of several gunfights


.

[quote=Dr Winston O Boogie jr;891678]Re-read our posts. You are way out there in misunderstanding everything that has been written. Maybe your probable bias has something to do with that.

[quote=Doctommft;891710]OK, here is your post:

What I'm trying to understand is how, by wanting armed guards at schools, we eliminate 50% of the proposed solutions to the problem?

I am simply asking what are the solutions that this eliminates? I don't understand that part of your post and have asked twice now that you explain it.

I fully understand that armed guards would not prevent people who want to die in this manner from attempting shootings, but it might prevent those who do not want to die. It may also mitigate the damage done by those whose wish is death by cop. So how is this narrow minded?

Carl in Tampa has made a post that makes the most sense. "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. And the sooner that the good guy arrives, the less damage there will be"

I think that this is a problem that has a lot of complex causes and will require many different actions to combat it. Certainly we need to look at how our children are being raised and what happened psychologically to our society in general. We might consider the effect of violent video games and movies are having on us. There are probably a hundred other things that should be considered and plans implemented to help. But, having armed guards in the schools is an immediate deterrent for many of these criminals and an immediate means of prevention and mitigation in many of these cases. I don't know why some people would be so narrow minded as to want to eliminate that as part of the solution.

Unfortunately, as I have pointed out with some of the links I've posted, some anti-gun groups are using these shootings as a political tool to achieve their goal of completely banning guns in this country. They are making this problem out to be much bigger than it actually is. Until we get people to put aside their biases and agree to do whatever it takes to end the problem, it will continue.

No way to prevent this. :blahblahblah:

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

A gun free zone just indicates there will be no armed resistance. That's what a person with intent to do harm will conclude.

EXACTLY !

And, as usual, the only people who will obey this are the honest citizens. Leaving the crazies to do as they wish with no resistance.

Who the heck thought of that anyway? :shrug:

Gun free zones do not preclude the presence of an armed security team. It merely means that the general populace cannot bring guns into the building.

Concealed carry in Florida is popular - but there are places you will be arrested if you carry. A prime example is in a bar or bar area of a restaurant. There are signs on the outside door at the Sheriff's stations saying that you - not a police officer- cannot enter with a weapon.

Basically, it seems that so many do not understand what a gun free zone means.

You are correct but most schools have no security. Gun free means there will either be no security or limited sources of a threat to stop you in a public area. I believe most people understand what gun free means. However in some gun free zones its well know that there is no one armed in the area. I believe Georgia now allows you to carry into a bar. There are places that are labelled as gun free which are used by those that don't care and know the law abiding person will be unarmed. Its a hard call as to where to allow and not to allow those with a concealed permit to carry. Even reasonable people fly off the handle occasionally. I do believe that those that have decided to carry a concealed weapon should receive more training then they currently receive. I've always believed that open carry is the real answer to deter an incident. The whole thing about carrying a weapon is to avoid a problem not get into a problem. In Ohio open carry is legal and no permit is required. I agree with the open carry but I do not agree with no permit. If your going to use the presence of a gun to help deter a threat I want to know the person carrying the weapon has had some training. We have to have training to fly a plane or drive a car but I can walk down to the gun shop and purchase a pistol. If I have a CCP I get it immediately, if I don't I get it in three days. No where has anyone asked me if I know how it works or how to handle it.

You are correct about Georgia. Georgia passed a "guns anywhere" law recently, which means you can now carry a gun to church, school, bars, the airport, anywhere your heart desires. Hopefully, it won't be long until Florida follows their lead. Is this a great country or what?

I'm not against such a law but what I fear is there will be no additional training for those who decide they will carry in these areas. Remember when you decide to use a weapon you own the bullet where ever it lands and the consequences after words.

Most of these shooters don't seem to need any training. They seem to be pretty good shots, like Adam Lanza who killed 26 people in a few minutes including 20 children, the Aurora theater shooter, the latest shooter in Oregon, the one before that in Santa Barbara CA, the one that shot the priest in Phoenix yesterday, the cop killers in Las Vegas, the cop killers in New Brunswick, Canada, and the shooter who killed two cops in Alaska in May.

Oh and also retired police captain Curtis Reeves who shot the young father in Wesley Chapel because he was texting his daughter's babysitter. Or how about Michael Dunn who shot the young black teen-ager because his music was too loud. They were all very good shooters.

The only one that comes to mind that might have needed practice was the man who accidently shot and killed himself while driving in Tennessee last week.

You missed my point. I agree each of those shooters had learned how to use a weapon. I'm speaking about Joe who just decided he should own a gun and carry it in public. Never owned one, never shot one and now he carries one. I'm not sure who I would need to shoot first Joe who will shoot 20 people because he can't hit the broad side of a barn or the real person causing the problem.

I think the NRA is correct, the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. We protect our money in banks with armed guards, we protect our VIP's with armed guards, why don't we protect our most cherished commodity, our children with the same. I am sure that there are teachers willing to be trained in the safe use of weapons, I say train them and let them carry them in schools. After all if they are teaching our children I would hope they are mentally compotent. Additionally there are new handguns being developed that can only me fired by a person with a bracelet coded to that gun, this would preclude any student that somehow got a hold of that gun from using it. Unfortunatley I don't see any other answer, You cannot remove all guns from the general public at this point, and I would not like to see that happen. To conquer a country first you must disarm its citizens.