Condition of greens 6/24/14
 

Played Heron this morning in my normal Men's day exec scramble (with fellow TOTVer BarryRX). We had a non-heated debate between us regarding the condition of the greens. For years I've been reading about 1. too much play 2. not enough rain 3. not fixing ball marks et. al.


But we've had at least adequate rainfall for the past two years. The exec's are almost free of golfers from 12:00 to 5:00PM every day. Ball marks don't cause the kind of problems that I see on many of the greens.


At least 6 of the greens today had what I'll refer to as fungus growth issues. At least that is my opinion. And the majority of the problem was in the first 5-6 feet of the edges of the greens. Hardly any 'good' grass in these areas. I know that they closed Southern Star for over a month to try and fix the same type of grass condition.


I'm going to contact golf management to see if I can get a handle on what the issue is. I don't see this too much on the championship greens but the vast majority of execs have issues at this time.


I often play at non-TV courses and a couple of them have switched to champions Bermuda grass. It's almost perfect. I'm wondering if it's time for a switch here.


Stone Creek Golf Club - Ocala, FL


Champion Turf Farms | Specializing in Bermudagrass Greens Since 1966

Left this message with the golf administration this morning

Hi ,
As a resident of the villages I'm trying to get my voice & many others voices heard on our concern for the conditions of all the courses throuhgout our community. In the past 6 weeks I have been playing various courses both executives & championships and have yet to find a course I would rate over a 2 on a 1 to five scale. What's the problem? The courses I have played just outside The Villages are exceptional & I don't understand why ours can't be. In fact we should be the standard for all other courses within a 100 mile radius of The Villages.Please consider firing those responsible for these conditions & hiring companies & leaders on your staff that can rectify this situation. This is not acceptible! Thank You for listening . Correspondence in return is appreciated. Thank You

Was a good message up until the Please..........sentence.

Why's that? Do you have a problem with the word please used in this context or with the whole sentence asking for a change?

I tend to agree.

My hat is off to both Bosoxfan and Russ for taking the time to contact management. I've done it several times in the past, and didn't feel I got results. Please let us know how you make out. I haven't played any exec courses lately, so thanks for the update RB. Your points regarding amount of play, rainfall, etc., are well taken.

The Starter at Southern Star told our group they didn't have any idea when SS would re-open. He said that the greens and tee boxes had areas that were badly diseased, and they were still trying to figure out how to repair it. It's been closed for over a month now. Seems to me it might have been easier to replace those areas with new sod like they have done on several other courses.

:agree:

The funny thing is that when I came here almost 4 years ago I was told "the greens were perfect up until last year - it's just been a bad summer". Then I was told "it's been too dry - they were great 2 years ago". Then it was "we had a cold winter - tough to recover from that - but they were great 3 years ago".


Almost laughable. I don't think they really care to tell you the truth. If the Villages didn't have this captive audience I think the general public would have not revisited and these courses would be a ghost land if they had to stand up to competitive competition. But just like everyone else I still play them day in and day out since it's part of my monthly dues. I guess we just have to take it and shut up. I get the same answer from golf mgt. every time: "we're aware and trying to take steps". In almost any business I know of if you try and take steps but fail you are out on your as*!

Just received this response from the golf administration:::

Thanks for taking the time to share your concerns and thoughts. What we are experiencing (and we are frustrated as well) is a more intense and prolonged transition period than normal. May and June will always be challenging months with transition, followed by aerfication, but this year in particular, it’s been more challenging than any we can remember. Our contractors are working diligently to return all the courses to acceptable condition ASAP, several have already made it back, and the others are well on their way. I can assure you that accountability is in full measure with our contractors. Good news, this should all be behind us soon. We appreciate your patience and support, and certainly understand your frustration and concern.

the Morse family does not want to spend the money. Everything is done on the cheap.

A walk through Eisenhower Rec Center shows the absurdity of that statement. Hyperbole does not support a point of view.

Great quote - can I use that?

We played Hacienda Hills yesterday and found many of the greens to have major problems. The edges seem to have a fungus problem (I'm guessing here), with dead grass and a white colored substance where the grass should be. Plus there was a lot of weed growth within the greens, which I believe is goose grass. Putting was an adventure, as you really couldn't read breaks unless you were obviously on the side of a fall line, and most putts could be counted on to bounce at least a few times. We are going back to Mallory on Friday, as it was in pretty good condition last week.

I also played heron last Saturday...if it was up to me I would close it , the greens were terrible, just awful....my group played cane garden yesterday and the conditions were just as bad...the greens are bumpy, sparse with many bare spots and impossible to get a true roll....and for the life of me I can't understand why they mow the fairways so tight...no wonder they burn out in the summer there is no grass to speak of on them in the first place....I have been a resident since 08 and and I have seen a steady decline in the maintenance and conditions of our golf courses....new strains of Bermuda are available and maybe management should train the people who mow the greens not to scalp them and leave oil and grease drips all over them and the fairways......we are playing off campus more and more and not just during snowbird season.......

Deep breaths Gracie, Deep breaths.

What is the Golf Admin's email address............I would like to send an email and I think others should as well.

Golf The Villages

You can find other golf information at this site.
Golf The Villages

when I stated the Morse family did not want to spend the money the conversation was about the golf courses and nothing else. Please keep to the topic. We were not discussing Rec centers.

Just taking pot shots at each other............................

You did say "everything". Just took you at your word. And the point was that if they spend the money to create the likes of Eisenhower, why would they decide to skimp on the feature that attracts the majority of new residents, the golf courses? Doesn't make sense.

There are some posters that feel golf administration does not care about the course conditions because we are a captive audience. I'd like to give my experience.

For the last five years, I've been a member of a resident group that meets quarterly with representatives of GMS, and the Director of Executive Golf Maintenance. At those meetings, we report on our evaluation of course conditions, and suggest improvements to the courses or procedures. Our reports are also sent to the facility managers responsible.

During my time with the group, we have seen several maintenance companies lose their contract or have it not renewed because of issues. At the same time, we have seen companies that produced good results get more contracts and/or more courses to handle. So these companies are required to produce results or risk losing out. With regard to the current problems, I received a response to my evaluation of the sorry state of Bogart and Bacall that indicated the contractor has even reached out to national experts for help. Since in April, these courses were graded as excellent, and I don't believe the contractor has forgotten how to maintain a course, there is something else going on. Some greens display the signs of disease, rather than just poorly growing grass.

At all our meetings, I have found these people to be engaged in the conversations, receptive to our comments, and follow through on our suggestions. As an example, the district is discussing waiving the spectator fee for the executive courses, a suggestion we brought up in April.

I cannot agree that these people don't care. My experience is the opposite. BTW, if you ever find Eric Van Gorder in his office, I would be shocked. And you may find Erik Greulach touring almost any championship or executive course every week. A claim that they sit in the office all day is not factual.

Good info - thanks. There is SOMETHING going on at many of the execs. Disease? Hope they figure it out because it is real bad right now.

I was waiting to golf at an executive course last Saturday and the discussion came up among five or six people including a worker about the poor condition of most of courses especially the bad greens. Well someone had a comment on the recirculated water that is used from saved rain water etc....Russ mentioned that he thought it looked like a fungus..... and that's what the group agreed it looked like to them. Could it be a fungus growing in the water that is being sprayed onto the courses. Has that possibility been eliminated by the Course Management people???? Just another thought. This is the worst I've seen them since I moved here in 2011.

Thanks for the info. As far as your comment about a "claim they sit in their office all day", I suppose you're referring to my post where I questioned whether or not they get out on the courses much. That was not a claim but a question I.e. "I wonder". For the record, there are a few posters on board, usually not in the golf thread, that like to twist posts around and insinuate posters are saying something that they had no intention of saying. Up until now, I didn't think you were one of those. The reason I asked that question, is I worked at a job for years where managers spent the majority of their time at a desk, and relied on subordinates for information about field conditions, a system that I found to be less than perfect.

Could it be a FUNGUS that is in the recirculated water that is used on the courses. I see Russ mentioned it in his question about the conditions being so horrible. Has the golf administration ever considered it or have they had the water tested? Just another thought on the matter. I agree the Executive Courses are terrible...I don't golf the Championship Courses so I can't comment on those. Hope the solution is close at hand.

Thank you for this information and your objectivity.

Mikeod,do you know if the championship courses have the same organization?

I have played several execs and champs in the past 2 months. They are all in less than acceptable condition. When I was here last summer I was impressed with the several courses I played and it was a factor in moving here. Something has changed in the maintenance and I hope we see some recovery soon.:shocked:

I don't know. But I strongly feel that there should be a similar group for them. At first I thought the lack may be because the developer owns all of them whereas the execs are part of the amenities. But all execs below 466 (except for the Pimlico group) are still owned by the developer and our group still evaluates and discusses them.

One of the benefits of our group, IMO, is that we are on the courses regularly, so we can communicate issues we see right away. Even with best intentions, I don't think the pros or GMS hierarchy can cover the courses as completely as the residents. A group of experienced (think greens committee experience) residents for each championship course could mean more eyes looking for areas that need attention. I know our group has great relationships with the pros with oversight of our courses.

Played Palmer today, fairways in horrible shape. The championship courses have declined in the last two years. Yes, the courses receive much play, but this should not be an issue.

Hopefully this gets taken care of promptly.

FYI Mike, each Champ. course has an advisory group made up of management, maintenance,adjacent homeowners, and players. I believe they meet monthly.

This may seem silly but I have to wonder . . .

I have been on greens where half of the green is horrible and half is okay. WHY put the cup on the side that is horrible?

I realize holes are moved but if the green is in bad condition why not put the flag where it is playable?

I've wondered the same thing. Perhaps the better area is still in the recovery phase and they don't want to set it back. But I'm not good enough to always hit it near the flag, so the entire green gets play anyway. :shrug:

Just wondering! Can a fungus be transferred, from green to green from the mower? And if so, is there a spray they can spray the mower with, after cutting?

I don't know about mowers, but it can be transferred on golf shoes from green to green. However, all,the talk about a fungus is just speculation. There are areas on the greens that suggest a disease process, but whether it's fungus or nematodes, or something else, I don't know.

There are, to me, some weird things about the problems. For example, I noted this month at Bogart and Bacall that the greens are terrible, but also that those on the east side of Canal are significantly worse than those west. Why? I also noted that the turf between tee and green looked very good. ??? At first I thought it was because those areas aren't overseeded, but the fairways, which were, looked fairly good.

Conditions at Mallory yesterday were fine. There are areas on the edges of some greens where the grass is being killed by something (probably fungus, but who knows), but the bad spots are being treated. There is a green colored substance, which to me looks like a treatment powder, covering the damaged areas. Other than that, I found Mallory (Caroline to Virginia) to play just fine. Not perfect, but good enough for me to have a great day on the golf course.

:bigbow:Hats off to you and Russ Boston. Your reply from golf admin was the same I received last month. He stated that we shouldn't expect major improvements any time soon. I, as well as others I golf with regularly, noticed poorer conditions this year and they appeared very quickly. I've had a belief that reclaimed water used in irrigation contains disease qualities that flourish in hot weather. Whatever the problem(s) are the admin. claims they can't identify anything specific. I have a problem with that assertion. They cannot convince me that if scientific samples are taken from multiple sources i.e. water, turf, soil, etc. that experts such as at the Univ. of Florida Extension could not identify problems. Perhaps even the over seed material used in the fall should be examined. Of course, the biggest problem I have is that the permanent residents of The Villages are left with closed courses and poor conditions in the summer and our seasonal residents play in better conditions in fall and winter with ALL courses open.:spoken:

Played Hacienda today. The greens are hideous, dying. Played Palmer two days ago, fairways are in terrible shape too.

What's going on?

:undecided:In what ways have the contractors "reached out" to national experts and who are these experts? One can reach out very far but they need to make an actual connection on the other end. There are experts at the Univ. of Florida Agriculture Extension who may be able to determine what these problems are. Has anyone thought to take multiple samples of soil, turf, irrigation water, seeding, etc. to send for scientific analysis? If not, then they are NOT doing all they can to get these problems controlled. There is no way to convince myself and others that specific scientific issues cannot be identified. I have corresponded with Eric recently and he offered to meet to discuss these problems which I commend him for. However, meeting and discussing with your group has not produced positive results.:evil6: