Let's put an end to the doctor shortage:
 

Perhaps 8 years of college are too many. Let's at least shorten it to about 6.

Too many non-essential courses are required.

A doctor should not be expected to be all things to all people. So why is a doctor required to take X number of years of a foreign language?

How about courses like art appreciation and music appreciation etc. When was the last time you discussed art or music with your doctor?

Algebra? Trigonometry?

How does a doctor use algebra when diagnosing a patient? If diagnosis = y and treatment = x, outcome = Get real!!!

We end up paying for all the time and money they spend getting their education.

When kids in school said "Why to I have to take this class, I will never use anything I learn here" I remember a teacher saying "learning different things awakens different parts of your brain. Not everything you learn is practical, but it will make your brain function better"

What about their life outside the office? Shouldn't they be well-rounded? Some of those courses actually teach critical thinking skills. That's kind of important for a doctor.

if you really want to end the doctor shortage, bring down the cost of becoming a doctor. many people won't even consider it anymore because the time, effort, and cost is not worth the rewards anymore. Reimbursements to doctors are cut all the time...a lot of the doctors I know say they wouldn't do it again.

For kids, I agree. There's no need to change grammar school or high school, as far as I know. (But there's always room for improvement.)

However, I don't think anyone needs 8 years of college for the purpose of waking up their brain.

There have been some very creative and productive people in the world who never even went to college.

Yes, but they should just hurry-up and get those critical thinking skills in 6 years instead of 8.

I just looked at the syllabus for The Univ. of Florida Medical School for years 1 through 4. They do not take any of the courses you've mentioned while they are in medical school. Are you saying that they shouldn't have to take these courses in High School? If the standard dose of a drug for an adult male is 4mg/kg, then how much drug should be prescribed to a 200 pound man who has reduced kidney function? Go ahead and figure that out without using basic math skills. And, why would you deny a doctor the skills needed to not only enjoy art or music, but to understand why. I don't use my art appreciation course when I practice pharmacy, but I am grateful that I took it. Many times when people are in High School or taking undergraduate courses in College, they are not sure if they want to become doctors. That' what that period is for, to figure out who you are and what you want to do.

Two years less college would do exactly that, it would bring down the cost. Not to mention they would begin earning money two years sooner.

No "fluffy" courses at Harvard either. VPL read this;

Medical Education at Harvard

You looked at the syllabus for medical school but in my opening post I referred to "8 years". What happens in the first 4 years is what I question.

In high school they could require the same as always, as far as I'm concerned. I had art and music appreciation in high school.

I have nothing against doctors learning basic math skills. Give them whatever they need.

Those who need more time to figure out what they want to do can always take more time. But those who never doubted that they wanted to be a doctor should be able to go through in 6 years instead of 8. I had a friend in high school who said he wanted to be a doctor because his father was a doctor.

The "first" 4 years are not medical school. They are undergraduate study. Typically, after finishing 4 years of college a student may apply to a medical school. Then they go to medical school for 4 years, then have a year of internship, one or two years residency, and then take a fellowship if they so desire for about 2-3 years depending on the specialty. If you're saying we should let people apply to med school after only 2 years of university, then we would see a whole bunch of folks that don't have the building blocks needed to pass the first year of medical school. Take a look at a typical pre med curriculum. I think the problem here is that you don't have a very good idea of what a pre med and medical education entail.

That's fine but what about the first 4 years of college?

What he said.

Read my opening post again. I referred to eight years of college to emphasize the fact of how long it takes to get through school. Obviously, 8 years includes 4 years of med school and 4 years of undergraduate study. No need to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

What does a pre med curriculum consist of? Two years of a foreign language, right? Do they need that to get through the first year of medical school? And how many other non-essential courses are there?

I want to be on BarryRX's team.

Many people have already completed foreign language in High School including Latin, Also all higher maths. Good High Schools offer many advanced placement courses and candidates for medical school would very well have taken all of those courses which are challenging and needed. Internet Tech courses are needed too. I don't know of any fluffly courses on any pre med curriculum unless you consider physical education fluffy or diet and nutrition or business management inappropriate or useless. Only the best and brightest and most prepared students are admitted to medical school.

Where do you see students in premed taking art appreciation in college?

Pre-medical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second paragraph: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."

I question all those courses that are not required.

http://www.ocs.fas.harvard.edu/stude...medguide12.pdf

Can't find any art appreciation. Or Music appreciation. Barry already explained the need for a good math foundation.

I don't think training is the main obstacle in becoming a doctor. When a doctor completes his/her residency, they want to start their own practice. The cost of setting up a practice and the equipment they would need, is very costly, not to mention the "malpractice insurance" cost they would have to buy.

If they weren't sued for every little thing, they would be able to start off relatively easier, and not have to charge large fees, to try and recoup all they money they spent in medical school and on education.

I personally wouldn't want to go to a doctor that took shortcuts in his/her education. A doctor should be well versed, in all facets of life. IMHO

That is what one doctor told me when his son said he wanted to follow in his footsteps. He told his son to forget about it.

We may well soon see a greater doctor shortage. The terrible stress and responsibility that a person must face being an M.D. can't be compensated with mere money.

A physician friend of mine told me recently that many people bright enough to be physicians are choosing other career paths.

The profession is not as fulfilling as it once was when doctors knew their patients personally and visited them in their homes....and now the job includes managing a staff of bookkeepers to keep up with all the forms and restrictions that must be followed to get paid. Couple that with even the most precise knowledge applied in the most concerned and ethical ways still results in the death of a patient. Dealing with death is HARD on people. Why would you choose to do that when you can make just as much money in a less stressful employment??

I don't think the ACA will get us MORE doctors, maybe less.

I'll repeat the quote from Wikipedia: "A student on a pre-med track is permitted to choose any undergraduate major in any field of study, so long as certain required courses are completed."

If they are allowed to choose any undergraduate major, then that would include art and music.

Two years less of non-required, non-essential, non-related undergraduate study would free up some of the money needed for office, equipment and insurance premiums.

How about if we let people have a choice. Then those who want to can pay more for a doctor who knows more about art or music or some such undergraduate major that's not related to the field of medicine.

There is nothing new about bright people choosing non-physician careers. Our best and brightest should be encouraged to go into science, law, education, basic research, business, economics, politics (yes politics), etc. Deciding on medicine means giving up the ideal hedonistic years to spend that time in being taught. You had better have a high acceptance for delayed gratification. You need to get a kick out of learning, exploring difficult concepts in depth, accepting uncertainty.

Humanity. Decency. Cultural competence. Interpersonal skills. Wonder. All of these would be valuable assets for a doctor. And all would be enhanced by taking art appreciation, theater, and a wide range of what I think is still called a liberal arts education. Learning to write and speak well. Learning to organize thoughts, understand alternative points of view, learn how to learn.

Medical school is to teach a body of information much of which is rapidly going to be outdated. Undergraduate education is to provide intellectual growth, how to delve deeply into material, how to think creatively and capture that creativity for positive goals. I wouldn't want my doctor missing those years.

Getting a doctor up and running two years faster is not going to make any dent in the shortage of primary care providers. Instead consider ways to make practicing medicine more rewarding, or its flip side, less stressful. But that's another topic.

Becoming a doctor is a great achievement. IMHO

There are also downsides too:
1. Some doctors pass away at an early age as they work very long hours. Some have been known to work a 100 hours per week between their practice and hospital rounds. They also have the burden of reading all of the medical periodical to keep up with the latest advance in medicine. Sometimes their families suffer, from their absence.
2. My old family doctor quit medicine when he had to deal with insurance companies as to what test they would approve. He complained to me he was arguing with a nurse who was denying a claim as he was thinking, "where did she get her medical degree"? I'm sure they have staff that deals with that sort of thing so they can concentrate on their medical practice.
3. A long time ago, doctors were a well respected member of the community that made house calls. Their knowledge was valued and they had a greater a greater compassion for their patients.

Personally, I would not have the desire or drive to put up with the myriad of things that needed to be done, to have great practice. I would be wondering if it, was all worth it?

Today, they get sued, at the drop of a hat!!!

BTW - My old doctor in CT died from cancer, a couple of years after he left his practice! It's a shame, as he was a good guy, who never got to enjoy retirement.

Two less years of schooling would help alleviate the above concern.

Yes, they would be valuable assets but we don't know how much more of those qualities they would have with 4 years of undergraduate study as opposed to 2 years.

Then how about giving people a choice? I think a doctor might be better adjusted and more "well rounded" if he/she got out of school sooner. Especially due to the fact that a lot of college work requires memorizing rather than creativity.

What basis do you have for saying it won't make a dent? More people will be able to afford becoming a doctor. That alone may be a big incentive. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't have to put off living their lives for as long. And that in itself would make life less stressful.

It seems that U.S. physicians don't live as long, on average, as the rest of the population. I believe the average lifespan in the U.S. is about 78.

White physicians only live to 73 on average

Black doctors................68.7

Surgeons................68

And we entrust our health to them because they are better educated and well rounded.

But they have to get into Med school which is competitive.

I don't know about that.

But I do know that some posters expose us to new forms of logic. If you post something they don't agree with and validate your point.

They change the subject.
They say it is funded by the food industry.
They say it is funded by the pharmaceutical industry.
They say they read it in a book.
They say that all doctors can't be trusted.(for the above reasons)
They say that nutritionists can't be trusted.(for the above reasons)
They make unsubstantiated claims or offer proof from some obscure source.

You CANNOT educate yourself into more I.Q. points. I.Q. is pretty much innate with some chance of some change but not a lot..
Only the top three percent of the population; the intellectually brightest people, are candidates for med school. No school can make you smarter. It can educate you in the material that you will need to become a physician, but you have to be smart enough to absorb it and emotionally strong enough to practice medicine.

And have one of BarryRXs trained docs as opposed to the proposed alternative.

Perhaps, but I can tell you from personal experience that many (probably most) colleges with strong science schools have pre-med tracks that leave little time for anything but core science courses/pre-med requirements. The first year undergrad may have English, a language, etc. But by the second year students are trying to survive organic chemistry and other similar courses.

It is not uncommon, for those who know they will go the pre-med route, to take AP courses in high school to get extraneous courses out of the way.

My ex just retired from the medical profession. Young people may no longer be as motivated to go into medicine because of the cost of medical school being so prohibitive. In addition, I read in the NY Times a number of years ago how medical schools themselves keep the number of admissions artifically low to limit the number of doctors they graduate. Ditto the number of residencies given out. Just because someone graduates medical school doesn't guarantee a residency. Assuming a successful residency in a specialty, the doctor can now go out and earn a living, if they can find a practice. Can't afford to start one alone. Unless the doctor lives in a big city, she/he may not find a job. If you go where doctors are needed in this country, it's difficult to make a living. If you have a specialty, you have a begtter chance of earning a decent living than if you are a family physician, general practioner or internist. Specialists command more $$$. If you ask why there are so many foreign-born doctors in general practice, that's one of the reasons. They are sought out because they carry much less debt than an American-trained physician. I learned an awful lot putting my ex through school. (as an aside, he still carries debt; I'm retired!)

This whole thing is off track from the get-go, based on a faulty premise.

The dr. shortage is not due to their years of schooling or curriculum. It's due to fewer residency positions than there are graduates coming out of med school.

Required residency training is paid for in large part with Medicare funds, (supplying doctors in training at lower pay at teaching hospitals) and Medicare funding to the training programs is being cut by Congress, not increased:

New England Journal of Medicine -The Residency Mismatch
(The link works despite "error" inserted by forum):

MMS: Error

There is a 6 year option for pre-med and med school. It is an extremely intensive education which involves going to school year round. Beyond med school most docs go for additional training for anywhere from 6 - 12 years. This additional training alone makes it near impossible to cut down the total length of training.

There's also a group called the AAMC (association of American medical colleges) that accredits medical schools based on scientifically based data.

Bingo. I was just getting ready to bring this up. In the late 90's the Feds capped the number of residency slots that are reimbursable in part by Medicare. This has become the bottle neck for more docs.

And no mention of malpractice insurance, the impact lawyers have on the cost of medical care, the governments involvement through regulation, the patent practice. Seems we blame the doctors, which probably is the lowest cost factor in the equation. Of course we can do what others do, socialize medicine, have the government pay for their education and then tax the heck of the citizens to support it.

We are on the path you describe unless something drastic happens. I've been an inside observer for more than 40 years. I am the first to admit that there are things that need to be done differently. However, I've studied other countries' systems, and consulted in Canada and Germany for their governments wishing to make some pro market changes. Having said that, we are in the process of destroying the best health system in the world. And I hate to see that happen...for my kids, and their kids sake.

I don't think that VPL is serious about doctors having "too much education".
I think he is just being controversial. But if he is serious, Barry, I want to be on your team too.

My son is a doctor so we have some insight on this
 

He would contend that the lack of good, plentiful docotrs in mostly due to the low number of spots available in Medical schools. We have an affirmative action system in this country which makes the Medical schools accept many applicants from other countries and other ethnicities. Some of these docs return to their native countries and the rest come to FL. LOL
The reason there are so few opppening in the Med Schools is that the AMA does not want an overabundance of docs splitting the pie. Since an doctor can get a huge amount of student loans money should not be the problem there. The place where money becomes a problem is that with the huge cuts in pay that doctors are being forced to take is making all that hard work less attractive. Medical school is really a tough row to hoe.

There are fewer physicians because medical school is expensive and the student is going into the workforce 4 years later than other college graduates. After going into practice the physician is not his / her own boss. Their practice is run by insurance companies and the government. Medicare, Medicaid and insurance reinbursemets are decreasing each year. Expensive equipment, large number of staff needed to process all of the paper work are causing the physicians overhead to go through the roof. That is why we are having fewer doctors. Who would what to go through all of that? Oh, and then patients are non compliant and call them incompetent.